*** THE INDICTMENT OF DONALD J TRUMP ***

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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 32,071
    edited August 26
    2021
    All of that, requires the Supreme Court to rule he doesn’t have the authority to magically declassify whatever he wants. It’s 100 percent going there. And it’s not clear he loses on that argument. 

    Expectations need to be realistic.  He wouldn’t have done any of this by accident. He had to have had legal advise he could win this exact argument.  It’s not about the documents at all.  The documents are to set up a fight with the government.  In no way do I believe this was not calculated in advance by team trump.  Everyone knew he had them it’s not surprising, the question needs to be why keep them when you know the feds will come in and take them?

    it hinges on that.  Without it you have a violation of the presidential records act. There isn’t a punishment for that 

    it’s like Ted Cruz deliberately violating campaign finance law so he could take it to court.  It wasn’t an accident.  During his 2018 campaign, Cruz loaned himself $260,000 one day before winning reelection, intentionally going $10,000 above the legal limit for repayment to have grounds to sue the Federal Election Commission and argue against the law.


    other people may go to jail. Not trump.  The fact he violated the law is clear. Your only defense has to be arguing against the law itself 
    Read the affidavit and what the law specifies as it relates to the type of documents that were mishandled. I don’t believe that SCOTUS will buy POOTWH’s argument because if they do, they will have sold out our military and intelligence agencies. There is no provision for POOTWH to magically declassify documents without the consent of the originator of the classified information. This is a major breach and is treasonous. While there is no constitutional reference for this, there most certainly is as it relates to swearing your oath and not aiding and abetting the enemy, both foreign and domestic. For the constitutional purists out there. And the magic wand of declassification ended on 1/20/21 and the obstruction of justice charges began when POOTWH said everything had been returned after claiming he didn’t have any to begin with. That part of the law still applies. Lying and then partially cooperating is obstruction.

    If SCOTUS were to rule in favor of POOTWH on this issue and in this glaring, harmful violation of the responsibility of the office, you might as well just get rid of our nukes and bow to China and Russia. And if reasonable people are okay with your explanation to excuse it, the nation is fucked. I can’t wait to leave it.
    Post edited by Halifax2TheMax on
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  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited August 26
    All of that, requires the Supreme Court to rule he doesn’t have the authority to magically declassify whatever he wants. It’s 100 percent going there. And it’s not clear he loses on that argument. 

    Expectations need to be realistic.  He wouldn’t have done any of this by accident. He had to have had legal advise he could win this exact argument.  It’s not about the documents at all.  The documents are to set up a fight with the government.  In no way do I believe this was not calculated in advance by team trump.  Everyone knew he had them it’s not surprising, the question needs to be why keep them when you know the feds will come in and take them?

    it hinges on that.  Without it you have a violation of the presidential records act. There isn’t a punishment for that 

    it’s like Ted Cruz deliberately violating campaign finance law so he could take it to court.  It wasn’t an accident.  During his 2018 campaign, Cruz loaned himself $260,000 one day before winning reelection, intentionally going $10,000 above the legal limit for repayment to have grounds to sue the Federal Election Commission and argue against the law.


    other people may go to jail. Not trump.  The fact he violated the law is clear. Your only defense has to be arguing against the law itself 
    Read the affidavit and what the law specifies as it relates to the type of documents that were mishandled. I don’t believe that SCOTUS will buy POOTWH’s argument because if they do, they will have sold out our military and intelligence agencies. There is no provision for POOTWH to magically declassify documents without the consent of the originator of the classified information. This is a major breach and is treasonous. While there is no constitutional reference for this, there most certainly is as it relates to swearing your oath and not aiding and abetting the enemy, both foreign and domestic. For the constitutional purists out there. And the magic wand of declassification ended on 1/20/21 and the obstruction of justice charges began when POOTWH said everything had been returned after claiming he didn’t have any to begin with. That part of the law still applies. Lying and then partially cooperating is obstruction.

    If SCOTUS were to rule in favor of POOTWH on this issue and in this glaring, harmful violation of the responsibility of the office, you might as well just get rid of our nukes and bow to China and Russia. And if reasonable people are okay with your explanation to excuse it, the nation is fucked. I can’t wait to leave it.
    I don’t disagree the Supreme Court could drastically change our country if they were to side with trump

    To me it’s a coin toss. At least 3 go with trump regardless.  Thomas and Alito no doubt, and at a minimum one of 3 of trumps picks, maybe more. It’s safe to say there are 4 votes against including Roberts

    it’s also why I’m really not supporting an indictment.  The consequences of the Supreme Court will last well beyond trump. It’s a huge risk and playing with fire. I tend to think the Supreme Court case would be the defining moment in the direction of the country 

    presidential  powers generally would be what’s at stake. If he declassified them the day he left, they presumably would still be declassified.  There is also an interesting presidential records case reguarding Clinton when the court said he owned the documents. That lawyer is in trumps ear.  That lawyer lost the Clinton case as he wanted access to the files and is trying to use that loss to make trumps case 

    You can look at what trump did yes, but that’s not really the issue.  The issue is the power a president has generally. Not what he did with that power. That’s what the court would rule on.   It’s like how technically roe v Wade wasn’t about abortion specifically it was about a right to privacy.  

     As the head of the executive branch there is a strong possibility he has unilateral authority do what he wants with classified documents when he is president.  Otherwise the president is answerable to either the legislative branch or a law created by them. It’s absolutely a problem for people (or judges) who believe in a strong executive 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 32,071
    2021
    All of that, requires the Supreme Court to rule he doesn’t have the authority to magically declassify whatever he wants. It’s 100 percent going there. And it’s not clear he loses on that argument. 

    Expectations need to be realistic.  He wouldn’t have done any of this by accident. He had to have had legal advise he could win this exact argument.  It’s not about the documents at all.  The documents are to set up a fight with the government.  In no way do I believe this was not calculated in advance by team trump.  Everyone knew he had them it’s not surprising, the question needs to be why keep them when you know the feds will come in and take them?

    it hinges on that.  Without it you have a violation of the presidential records act. There isn’t a punishment for that 

    it’s like Ted Cruz deliberately violating campaign finance law so he could take it to court.  It wasn’t an accident.  During his 2018 campaign, Cruz loaned himself $260,000 one day before winning reelection, intentionally going $10,000 above the legal limit for repayment to have grounds to sue the Federal Election Commission and argue against the law.


    other people may go to jail. Not trump.  The fact he violated the law is clear. Your only defense has to be arguing against the law itself 
    Read the affidavit and what the law specifies as it relates to the type of documents that were mishandled. I don’t believe that SCOTUS will buy POOTWH’s argument because if they do, they will have sold out our military and intelligence agencies. There is no provision for POOTWH to magically declassify documents without the consent of the originator of the classified information. This is a major breach and is treasonous. While there is no constitutional reference for this, there most certainly is as it relates to swearing your oath and not aiding and abetting the enemy, both foreign and domestic. For the constitutional purists out there. And the magic wand of declassification ended on 1/20/21 and the obstruction of justice charges began when POOTWH said everything had been returned after claiming he didn’t have any to begin with. That part of the law still applies. Lying and then partially cooperating is obstruction.

    If SCOTUS were to rule in favor of POOTWH on this issue and in this glaring, harmful violation of the responsibility of the office, you might as well just get rid of our nukes and bow to China and Russia. And if reasonable people are okay with your explanation to excuse it, the nation is fucked. I can’t wait to leave it.
    I don’t disagree the Supreme Court could drastically change our country if they were to side with trump

    To me it’s a coin toss. At least 3 go with trump regardless.  Thomas and Alito no doubt, and at a minimum one of 3 of trumps picks, maybe more. It’s safe to say there are 4 votes against including Roberts

    it’s also why I’m really not supporting an indictment.  The consequences of the Supreme Court will last well beyond trump. It’s a huge risk and playing with fire. I tend to think the Supreme Court case would be the defining moment in the direction of the country 

    presidential  powers generally would be what’s at stake. If he declassified them the day he left, they presumably would still be declassified.  There is also an interesting presidential records case reguarding Clinton when the court said he owned the documents. That lawyer is in trumps ear.  That lawyer lost the Clinton case as he wanted access to the files and is trying to use that loss to make trumps case 

    again it’s not about trump it’s about presidential power generally.  It’s like how technically roe v Wade wasn’t about abortion specifically it was about a right to privacy.  You can look at what trump did yes, but that’s not really the issue.  The issue is the power a president has generally. Not what he did with that power. That’s what the court would rule on.  As the head of the executive branch there is a strong possibility he has unilateral authority do what he wants with classified documents when he is president.  Otherwise the president is answerable to either the legislative branch or a law created by them. It’s absolutely a problem for people (or judges) who believe in a strong executive 
    Footnote at the bottom of page 22:

    2 18 U.S.C. § 793(e) does not use the tem1 "classified information.'' but rather criminalizes the wtlawful retention of"information relating to the national defense." The statute does not define "information related to the national defense." but courts have construed it broadly. See Gorin, .. United States. 312 U.S. 19. 28 (1941) (holding that the phrase •'information relating to the national defense" as used in the Espionage Act is a "generic concept of broad connotations. refering to the military and naval establishments and the related activities of national preparedness"). In addition. the information must be "closely held" by the U.S. government. See United States, .. Squil/acote. 221F.3d 542, 579 (4th Cir. 2000) (''[I]nformation made public by the governmment as well as information never protected by the govenment is not national defense information."); United States, .. Morison. 844 F.2d 1057, 1071-72 (4th Cir.1988). Certain courts have also held that the disclosure of the documents must be potentially damaging to the United States. SeeM01ison, 844 F.2d at 1071-72
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

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  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited August 26
    All of that, requires the Supreme Court to rule he doesn’t have the authority to magically declassify whatever he wants. It’s 100 percent going there. And it’s not clear he loses on that argument. 

    Expectations need to be realistic.  He wouldn’t have done any of this by accident. He had to have had legal advise he could win this exact argument.  It’s not about the documents at all.  The documents are to set up a fight with the government.  In no way do I believe this was not calculated in advance by team trump.  Everyone knew he had them it’s not surprising, the question needs to be why keep them when you know the feds will come in and take them?

    it hinges on that.  Without it you have a violation of the presidential records act. There isn’t a punishment for that 

    it’s like Ted Cruz deliberately violating campaign finance law so he could take it to court.  It wasn’t an accident.  During his 2018 campaign, Cruz loaned himself $260,000 one day before winning reelection, intentionally going $10,000 above the legal limit for repayment to have grounds to sue the Federal Election Commission and argue against the law.


    other people may go to jail. Not trump.  The fact he violated the law is clear. Your only defense has to be arguing against the law itself 
    Read the affidavit and what the law specifies as it relates to the type of documents that were mishandled. I don’t believe that SCOTUS will buy POOTWH’s argument because if they do, they will have sold out our military and intelligence agencies. There is no provision for POOTWH to magically declassify documents without the consent of the originator of the classified information. This is a major breach and is treasonous. While there is no constitutional reference for this, there most certainly is as it relates to swearing your oath and not aiding and abetting the enemy, both foreign and domestic. For the constitutional purists out there. And the magic wand of declassification ended on 1/20/21 and the obstruction of justice charges began when POOTWH said everything had been returned after claiming he didn’t have any to begin with. That part of the law still applies. Lying and then partially cooperating is obstruction.

    If SCOTUS were to rule in favor of POOTWH on this issue and in this glaring, harmful violation of the responsibility of the office, you might as well just get rid of our nukes and bow to China and Russia. And if reasonable people are okay with your explanation to excuse it, the nation is fucked. I can’t wait to leave it.
    I don’t disagree the Supreme Court could drastically change our country if they were to side with trump

    To me it’s a coin toss. At least 3 go with trump regardless.  Thomas and Alito no doubt, and at a minimum one of 3 of trumps picks, maybe more. It’s safe to say there are 4 votes against including Roberts

    it’s also why I’m really not supporting an indictment.  The consequences of the Supreme Court will last well beyond trump. It’s a huge risk and playing with fire. I tend to think the Supreme Court case would be the defining moment in the direction of the country 

    presidential  powers generally would be what’s at stake. If he declassified them the day he left, they presumably would still be declassified.  There is also an interesting presidential records case reguarding Clinton when the court said he owned the documents. That lawyer is in trumps ear.  That lawyer lost the Clinton case as he wanted access to the files and is trying to use that loss to make trumps case 

    again it’s not about trump it’s about presidential power generally.  It’s like how technically roe v Wade wasn’t about abortion specifically it was about a right to privacy.  You can look at what trump did yes, but that’s not really the issue.  The issue is the power a president has generally. Not what he did with that power. That’s what the court would rule on.  As the head of the executive branch there is a strong possibility he has unilateral authority do what he wants with classified documents when he is president.  Otherwise the president is answerable to either the legislative branch or a law created by them. It’s absolutely a problem for people (or judges) who believe in a strong executive 
    Footnote at the bottom of page 22:

    2 18 U.S.C. § 793(e) does not use the tem1 "classified information.'' but rather criminalizes the wtlawful retention of"information relating to the national defense." The statute does not define "information related to the national defense." but courts have construed it broadly. See Gorin, .. United States. 312 U.S. 19. 28 (1941) (holding that the phrase •'information relating to the national defense" as used in the Espionage Act is a "generic concept of broad connotations. refering to the military and naval establishments and the related activities of national preparedness"). In addition. the information must be "closely held" by the U.S. government. See United States, .. Squil/acote. 221F.3d 542, 579 (4th Cir. 2000) (''[I]nformation made public by the governmment as well as information never protected by the govenment is not national defense information."); United States, .. Morison. 844 F.2d 1057, 1071-72 (4th Cir.1988). Certain courts have also held that the disclosure of the documents must be potentially damaging to the United States. SeeM01ison, 844 F.2d at 1071-72
    It’s far from settled law. None of that deals with a sitting president as far as I’m aware.

    The court also seems to think sitting presidents are immune from being charged with a crime. So saying there is a law is one thing, saying it applies to a president is another thing entirely. That example isn’t directly related to this case, I’m just saying there are situations when there is a law and a president can break it. 

    laws are legislative and president is executive. Does one separate branch have a right to limit the powers or another? It’s a mess and it’s uncharted territory unquestionably. 

     At the end of the day the vague definition of the executive branch powers as contained in the constitution is going to need to be interpreted by a very conservative court 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 26,195
    2021
    It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited August 26
    mrussel1 said:
    It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 
    Yes that’s true.  Biden may have and should have just in case.

    However as to the rest, the Supreme Court EPA case was this in reverse and was 6-3. The EPA as part of the executive can’t create laws or regulations which bypass congress. Since they are in effect legislating 

    that was the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch.   It’s reasonable to assume they could say declassifying national security information is the job of the executive not legislative as are what to do with presidential records. 

    You’ve got the same separation of powers issue dealing with the specific functions of each branch in both cases 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 32,071
    2021
    All of that, requires the Supreme Court to rule he doesn’t have the authority to magically declassify whatever he wants. It’s 100 percent going there. And it’s not clear he loses on that argument. 

    Expectations need to be realistic.  He wouldn’t have done any of this by accident. He had to have had legal advise he could win this exact argument.  It’s not about the documents at all.  The documents are to set up a fight with the government.  In no way do I believe this was not calculated in advance by team trump.  Everyone knew he had them it’s not surprising, the question needs to be why keep them when you know the feds will come in and take them?

    it hinges on that.  Without it you have a violation of the presidential records act. There isn’t a punishment for that 

    it’s like Ted Cruz deliberately violating campaign finance law so he could take it to court.  It wasn’t an accident.  During his 2018 campaign, Cruz loaned himself $260,000 one day before winning reelection, intentionally going $10,000 above the legal limit for repayment to have grounds to sue the Federal Election Commission and argue against the law.


    other people may go to jail. Not trump.  The fact he violated the law is clear. Your only defense has to be arguing against the law itself 
    Read the affidavit and what the law specifies as it relates to the type of documents that were mishandled. I don’t believe that SCOTUS will buy POOTWH’s argument because if they do, they will have sold out our military and intelligence agencies. There is no provision for POOTWH to magically declassify documents without the consent of the originator of the classified information. This is a major breach and is treasonous. While there is no constitutional reference for this, there most certainly is as it relates to swearing your oath and not aiding and abetting the enemy, both foreign and domestic. For the constitutional purists out there. And the magic wand of declassification ended on 1/20/21 and the obstruction of justice charges began when POOTWH said everything had been returned after claiming he didn’t have any to begin with. That part of the law still applies. Lying and then partially cooperating is obstruction.

    If SCOTUS were to rule in favor of POOTWH on this issue and in this glaring, harmful violation of the responsibility of the office, you might as well just get rid of our nukes and bow to China and Russia. And if reasonable people are okay with your explanation to excuse it, the nation is fucked. I can’t wait to leave it.
    I don’t disagree the Supreme Court could drastically change our country if they were to side with trump

    To me it’s a coin toss. At least 3 go with trump regardless.  Thomas and Alito no doubt, and at a minimum one of 3 of trumps picks, maybe more. It’s safe to say there are 4 votes against including Roberts

    it’s also why I’m really not supporting an indictment.  The consequences of the Supreme Court will last well beyond trump. It’s a huge risk and playing with fire. I tend to think the Supreme Court case would be the defining moment in the direction of the country 

    presidential  powers generally would be what’s at stake. If he declassified them the day he left, they presumably would still be declassified.  There is also an interesting presidential records case reguarding Clinton when the court said he owned the documents. That lawyer is in trumps ear.  That lawyer lost the Clinton case as he wanted access to the files and is trying to use that loss to make trumps case 

    again it’s not about trump it’s about presidential power generally.  It’s like how technically roe v Wade wasn’t about abortion specifically it was about a right to privacy.  You can look at what trump did yes, but that’s not really the issue.  The issue is the power a president has generally. Not what he did with that power. That’s what the court would rule on.  As the head of the executive branch there is a strong possibility he has unilateral authority do what he wants with classified documents when he is president.  Otherwise the president is answerable to either the legislative branch or a law created by them. It’s absolutely a problem for people (or judges) who believe in a strong executive 
    Footnote at the bottom of page 22:

    2 18 U.S.C. § 793(e) does not use the tem1 "classified information.'' but rather criminalizes the wtlawful retention of"information relating to the national defense." The statute does not define "information related to the national defense." but courts have construed it broadly. See Gorin, .. United States. 312 U.S. 19. 28 (1941) (holding that the phrase •'information relating to the national defense" as used in the Espionage Act is a "generic concept of broad connotations. refering to the military and naval establishments and the related activities of national preparedness"). In addition. the information must be "closely held" by the U.S. government. See United States, .. Squil/acote. 221F.3d 542, 579 (4th Cir. 2000) (''[I]nformation made public by the governmment as well as information never protected by the govenment is not national defense information."); United States, .. Morison. 844 F.2d 1057, 1071-72 (4th Cir.1988). Certain courts have also held that the disclosure of the documents must be potentially damaging to the United States. SeeM01ison, 844 F.2d at 1071-72
    It’s far from settled law. None of that deals with a sitting president as far as I’m aware.

    The court also seems to think sitting presidents are immune from being charged with a crime. So saying there is a law is one thing, saying it applies to a president is another thing entirely. That example isn’t directly related to this case, I’m just saying there are situations when there is a law and a president can break it. 

    laws are legislative and president is executive. Does one separate branch have a right to limit the powers or another? It’s a mess and it’s uncharted territory unquestionably. 

     At the end of the day the vague definition of the executive branch powers as contained in the constitution is going tBut o need to be interpreted by a very conservative court 
    At the time of the removal of the documents, POOTWH was no longer POTUS. He was asked to return them and lied. Then gave some up and lied again. And after the avadavat was filed and a search warrant issued, more were found. Is an ex-POTUS immune from obstruction charges? The POTUS is not immune from the Official Government Records Act, as far as I know, and all of these documents, regardless of classification fall under it. POOTWH's argument is BS. There are supposed to be three co-equal branches of power as the Founders intended, as a check and balance. The Presidential Records Act or whatever its called that governs the National Archives is just that. Those documents do not belong to POOTWH. They belong to the American people.

    Does POOTWH get to make a BS argument? Sure. Will the SCOTUS side with him? Maybe. But then they are rubber stamping a King and our democracy is gone. Pity the opposition of the POTUS that follows.
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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 26,195
    2021
    mrussel1 said:
    It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 
    Yes that’s true.  

    However the Supreme Court EPA case was this in reverse and was 6-3. The EPA as part of the executive can’t create laws or regulations which bypass congress. Since they are in effect legislating 

    that was the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch.   It’s reasonable to assume they could say declassifying national security information is the job of the executive not legislative as are what to do with presidential records. 

    You’ve got the same separation of powers issue dealing with the specific functions of each branch in both cases 
    I don't understand your point. Biden is the executive branch.  

    First,  we don't know if Trump's lawyers made the argument that he de-classified them.  But if they did,  I am confident that Biden would reverse that,  and instruct the DOJ to collect them.  Trump's lawyers would then be put on notice to return them.  All that could have taken place over the last 18 months. I don't understand a counter argument.  There is only one head of the executive branch. We already know that EOs only last a long as the current executive allows them. 
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 32,071
    2021
    If this doesn’t give you pause, knowing everything we know about POOTWH and how he conducted his campaign, administration and himself, then there truly is no hope. Further, who thinks that this won’t get much, much worse before it reaches SCOTUS?

    https://newsinteractive.post-gazette.com/anna-de-rothschild-trump-mar-a-lago-security-fbi-investigation/
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  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited August 26
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 
    Yes that’s true.  

    However the Supreme Court EPA case was this in reverse and was 6-3. The EPA as part of the executive can’t create laws or regulations which bypass congress. Since they are in effect legislating 

    that was the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch.   It’s reasonable to assume they could say declassifying national security information is the job of the executive not legislative as are what to do with presidential records. 

    You’ve got the same separation of powers issue dealing with the specific functions of each branch in both cases 
    I don't understand your point. Biden is the executive branch.  

    First,  we don't know if Trump's lawyers made the argument that he de-classified them.  But if they did,  I am confident that Biden would reverse that,  and instruct the DOJ to collect them.  Trump's lawyers would then be put on notice to return them.  All that could have taken place over the last 18 months. I don't understand a counter argument.  There is only one head of the executive branch. We already know that EOs only last a long as the current executive allows them. 
    If Biden reclassified that’s a different point.  We have no idea if he did or didn’t or when if he did 

    I’m saying if he didn’t reclassify them and am working on that assumption 

    All the laws and regulations including the presidential records act could be the legislative branch interfering with the executive 

    1. trump could have declassified using any process he wanted and thus didn’t commit a crime related to classified documents.
    2. any laws in relation to presidential records in general  are unconstitutional infringements on the executive branch from the legislative.  

    Thus all his records were both declassified (at least at some point between the day he left office and today) and his records, rendering everything else moot.  

    Trump’s lawyers don’t really have a choice. They have to argue he declassified them and they are his 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 26,195
    2021
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 
    Yes that’s true.  

    However the Supreme Court EPA case was this in reverse and was 6-3. The EPA as part of the executive can’t create laws or regulations which bypass congress. Since they are in effect legislating 

    that was the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch.   It’s reasonable to assume they could say declassifying national security information is the job of the executive not legislative as are what to do with presidential records. 

    You’ve got the same separation of powers issue dealing with the specific functions of each branch in both cases 
    I don't understand your point. Biden is the executive branch.  

    First,  we don't know if Trump's lawyers made the argument that he de-classified them.  But if they did,  I am confident that Biden would reverse that,  and instruct the DOJ to collect them.  Trump's lawyers would then be put on notice to return them.  All that could have taken place over the last 18 months. I don't understand a counter argument.  There is only one head of the executive branch. We already know that EOs only last a long as the current executive allows them. 
    If Biden reclassified that’s a different point.  We have no idea if he did or didn’t or when if he did 

    I’m saying if he didn’t reclassify them and am working on that assumption 

    All the laws and regulations including the presidential records act could be the legislative branch interfering with the executive 

    1. trump could have declassified using any process he wanted and thus didn’t commit a crime related to classified documents.
    2. any laws in relation to presidential records in general  are unconstitutional infringements on the executive branch from the legislative.  

    Thus all his records were both declassified and his rendering everything else moot.  

    Trump’s lawyers don’t really have a choice. They have to argue he declassified them 
    The federal records act is a law,  signed by president Carter.  It applies to the executive branch.  I don't know that you can argue that it doesn't apply.  He can't veto an existing law and certainly did not try during his tenure.
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 32,071
    2021
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 
    Yes that’s true.  

    However the Supreme Court EPA case was this in reverse and was 6-3. The EPA as part of the executive can’t create laws or regulations which bypass congress. Since they are in effect legislating 

    that was the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch.   It’s reasonable to assume they could say declassifying national security information is the job of the executive not legislative as are what to do with presidential records. 

    You’ve got the same separation of powers issue dealing with the specific functions of each branch in both cases 
    I don't understand your point. Biden is the executive branch.  

    First,  we don't know if Trump's lawyers made the argument that he de-classified them.  But if they did,  I am confident that Biden would reverse that,  and instruct the DOJ to collect them.  Trump's lawyers would then be put on notice to return them.  All that could have taken place over the last 18 months. I don't understand a counter argument.  There is only one head of the executive branch. We already know that EOs only last a long as the current executive allows them. 
    If Biden reclassified that’s a different point.  We have no idea if he did or didn’t or when if he did 

    I’m saying if he didn’t reclassify them and am working on that assumption 

    All the laws and regulations including the presidential records act could be the legislative branch interfering with the executive 

    1. trump could have declassified using any process he wanted and thus didn’t commit a crime related to classified documents.
    2. any laws in relation to presidential records in general  are unconstitutional infringements on the executive branch from the legislative.  

    Thus all his records were both declassified and his rendering everything else moot.  

    Trump’s lawyers don’t really have a choice. They have to argue he declassified them 
    If that were their “legitimate” claim, why wasn’t it exercised from the moment the archives requested the return of the documents? Why would they lie about possessing documents they would claim the constitution allows them to have?

    Is the process of classifying and declassification, handling and storing, unconstitutional as well?
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

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  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited August 26
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 
    Yes that’s true.  

    However the Supreme Court EPA case was this in reverse and was 6-3. The EPA as part of the executive can’t create laws or regulations which bypass congress. Since they are in effect legislating 

    that was the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch.   It’s reasonable to assume they could say declassifying national security information is the job of the executive not legislative as are what to do with presidential records. 

    You’ve got the same separation of powers issue dealing with the specific functions of each branch in both cases 
    I don't understand your point. Biden is the executive branch.  

    First,  we don't know if Trump's lawyers made the argument that he de-classified them.  But if they did,  I am confident that Biden would reverse that,  and instruct the DOJ to collect them.  Trump's lawyers would then be put on notice to return them.  All that could have taken place over the last 18 months. I don't understand a counter argument.  There is only one head of the executive branch. We already know that EOs only last a long as the current executive allows them. 
    If Biden reclassified that’s a different point.  We have no idea if he did or didn’t or when if he did 

    I’m saying if he didn’t reclassify them and am working on that assumption 

    All the laws and regulations including the presidential records act could be the legislative branch interfering with the executive 

    1. trump could have declassified using any process he wanted and thus didn’t commit a crime related to classified documents.
    2. any laws in relation to presidential records in general  are unconstitutional infringements on the executive branch from the legislative.  

    Thus all his records were both declassified and his rendering everything else moot.  

    Trump’s lawyers don’t really have a choice. They have to argue he declassified them 
    If that were their “legitimate” claim, why wasn’t it exercised from the moment the archives requested the return of the documents? Why would they lie about possessing documents they would claim the constitution allows them to have?

    Is the process of classifying and declassification, handling and storing, unconstitutional as well?
    I’m not saying I agree.

    im trying to view it through the opposing position to try to see what they may try to do.  It would be far more enjoyable if it wasn’t so real world 

    if I was in trumps camp there are definitely profound constitutional questions to raise 

    it’s safe to say the founders never anticipated this possibility 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited August 26
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 
    Yes that’s true.  

    However the Supreme Court EPA case was this in reverse and was 6-3. The EPA as part of the executive can’t create laws or regulations which bypass congress. Since they are in effect legislating 

    that was the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch.   It’s reasonable to assume they could say declassifying national security information is the job of the executive not legislative as are what to do with presidential records. 

    You’ve got the same separation of powers issue dealing with the specific functions of each branch in both cases 
    I don't understand your point. Biden is the executive branch.  

    First,  we don't know if Trump's lawyers made the argument that he de-classified them.  But if they did,  I am confident that Biden would reverse that,  and instruct the DOJ to collect them.  Trump's lawyers would then be put on notice to return them.  All that could have taken place over the last 18 months. I don't understand a counter argument.  There is only one head of the executive branch. We already know that EOs only last a long as the current executive allows them. 
    If Biden reclassified that’s a different point.  We have no idea if he did or didn’t or when if he did 

    I’m saying if he didn’t reclassify them and am working on that assumption 

    All the laws and regulations including the presidential records act could be the legislative branch interfering with the executive 

    1. trump could have declassified using any process he wanted and thus didn’t commit a crime related to classified documents.
    2. any laws in relation to presidential records in general  are unconstitutional infringements on the executive branch from the legislative.  

    Thus all his records were both declassified and his rendering everything else moot.  

    Trump’s lawyers don’t really have a choice. They have to argue he declassified them 
    The federal records act is a law,  signed by president Carter.  It applies to the executive branch.  I don't know that you can argue that it doesn't apply.  He can't veto an existing law and certainly did not try during his tenure.
    There are lots of  laws passed and signed by a president that have later been thrown out by the supreme court. 

    All I am saying and have been saying is the law has not been challenged in this context none of these laws have.

    you have to run afoul of a law or be impacted by it to have standing to challenge it I believe 

    if anyone can think of another possible defense trump has I’m all ears. It’s logical this is what they do 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 32,071
    2021
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 
    Yes that’s true.  

    However the Supreme Court EPA case was this in reverse and was 6-3. The EPA as part of the executive can’t create laws or regulations which bypass congress. Since they are in effect legislating 

    that was the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch.   It’s reasonable to assume they could say declassifying national security information is the job of the executive not legislative as are what to do with presidential records. 

    You’ve got the same separation of powers issue dealing with the specific functions of each branch in both cases 
    I don't understand your point. Biden is the executive branch.  

    First,  we don't know if Trump's lawyers made the argument that he de-classified them.  But if they did,  I am confident that Biden would reverse that,  and instruct the DOJ to collect them.  Trump's lawyers would then be put on notice to return them.  All that could have taken place over the last 18 months. I don't understand a counter argument.  There is only one head of the executive branch. We already know that EOs only last a long as the current executive allows them. 
    If Biden reclassified that’s a different point.  We have no idea if he did or didn’t or when if he did 

    I’m saying if he didn’t reclassify them and am working on that assumption 

    All the laws and regulations including the presidential records act could be the legislative branch interfering with the executive 

    1. trump could have declassified using any process he wanted and thus didn’t commit a crime related to classified documents.
    2. any laws in relation to presidential records in general  are unconstitutional infringements on the executive branch from the legislative.  

    Thus all his records were both declassified and his rendering everything else moot.  

    Trump’s lawyers don’t really have a choice. They have to argue he declassified them 
    If that were their “legitimate” claim, why wasn’t it exercised from the moment the archives requested the return of the documents? Why would they lie about possessing documents they would claim the constitution allows them to have?

    Is the process of classifying and declassification, handling and storing, unconstitutional as well?
    I’m not saying I agree.

    im trying to view it through the opposing position to try to see what they may try to do.  It would be far more enjoyable if it wasn’t so real world 

    if I was in trumps camp there are definitely profound constitutional questions to raise 

    it’s safe to say the founders never anticipated this possibility 
    I don’t think SCOTUS can just toss aside The Espionage Act. Or the Government Records Retention Act. Nor just say POTUS doesn’t have to abide by past practice of executive branch departments that POTUS oversees without a formal process of rescission like issuing  EOs. These are well established guardrails. 
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  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited August 26
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 
    Yes that’s true.  

    However the Supreme Court EPA case was this in reverse and was 6-3. The EPA as part of the executive can’t create laws or regulations which bypass congress. Since they are in effect legislating 

    that was the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch.   It’s reasonable to assume they could say declassifying national security information is the job of the executive not legislative as are what to do with presidential records. 

    You’ve got the same separation of powers issue dealing with the specific functions of each branch in both cases 
    I don't understand your point. Biden is the executive branch.  

    First,  we don't know if Trump's lawyers made the argument that he de-classified them.  But if they did,  I am confident that Biden would reverse that,  and instruct the DOJ to collect them.  Trump's lawyers would then be put on notice to return them.  All that could have taken place over the last 18 months. I don't understand a counter argument.  There is only one head of the executive branch. We already know that EOs only last a long as the current executive allows them. 
    If Biden reclassified that’s a different point.  We have no idea if he did or didn’t or when if he did 

    I’m saying if he didn’t reclassify them and am working on that assumption 

    All the laws and regulations including the presidential records act could be the legislative branch interfering with the executive 

    1. trump could have declassified using any process he wanted and thus didn’t commit a crime related to classified documents.
    2. any laws in relation to presidential records in general  are unconstitutional infringements on the executive branch from the legislative.  

    Thus all his records were both declassified and his rendering everything else moot.  

    Trump’s lawyers don’t really have a choice. They have to argue he declassified them 
    If that were their “legitimate” claim, why wasn’t it exercised from the moment the archives requested the return of the documents? Why would they lie about possessing documents they would claim the constitution allows them to have?

    Is the process of classifying and declassification, handling and storing, unconstitutional as well?
    I’m not saying I agree.

    im trying to view it through the opposing position to try to see what they may try to do.  It would be far more enjoyable if it wasn’t so real world 

    if I was in trumps camp there are definitely profound constitutional questions to raise 

    it’s safe to say the founders never anticipated this possibility 
    I don’t think SCOTUS can just toss aside The Espionage Act. Or the Government Records Retention Act. Nor just say POTUS doesn’t have to abide by past practice of executive branch departments that POTUS oversees without a formal process of rescission like issuing  EOs. These are well established guardrails. 
    Personally I don’t disagree with anything you are saying.

     I have less faith in our institutions these days though.

    instead of piling on with the trump is going to jail train, I tend to be a lot more skeptical 
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 32,071
    2021
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 
    Yes that’s true.  

    However the Supreme Court EPA case was this in reverse and was 6-3. The EPA as part of the executive can’t create laws or regulations which bypass congress. Since they are in effect legislating 

    that was the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch.   It’s reasonable to assume they could say declassifying national security information is the job of the executive not legislative as are what to do with presidential records. 

    You’ve got the same separation of powers issue dealing with the specific functions of each branch in both cases 
    I don't understand your point. Biden is the executive branch.  

    First,  we don't know if Trump's lawyers made the argument that he de-classified them.  But if they did,  I am confident that Biden would reverse that,  and instruct the DOJ to collect them.  Trump's lawyers would then be put on notice to return them.  All that could have taken place over the last 18 months. I don't understand a counter argument.  There is only one head of the executive branch. We already know that EOs only last a long as the current executive allows them. 
    If Biden reclassified that’s a different point.  We have no idea if he did or didn’t or when if he did 

    I’m saying if he didn’t reclassify them and am working on that assumption 

    All the laws and regulations including the presidential records act could be the legislative branch interfering with the executive 

    1. trump could have declassified using any process he wanted and thus didn’t commit a crime related to classified documents.
    2. any laws in relation to presidential records in general  are unconstitutional infringements on the executive branch from the legislative.  

    Thus all his records were both declassified and his rendering everything else moot.  

    Trump’s lawyers don’t really have a choice. They have to argue he declassified them 
    If that were their “legitimate” claim, why wasn’t it exercised from the moment the archives requested the return of the documents? Why would they lie about possessing documents they would claim the constitution allows them to have?

    Is the process of classifying and declassification, handling and storing, unconstitutional as well?
    I’m not saying I agree.

    im trying to view it through the opposing position to try to see what they may try to do.  It would be far more enjoyable if it wasn’t so real world 

    if I was in trumps camp there are definitely profound constitutional questions to raise 

    it’s safe to say the founders never anticipated this possibility 
    I don’t think SCOTUS can just toss aside The Espionage Act. Or the Government Records Retention Act. Nor just say POTUS doesn’t have to abide by past practice of executive branch departments that POTUS oversees without a formal process of rescission like issuing  EOs. These are well established guardrails. 
    Personally I don’t disagree with anything you are saying.

     I have less faith in our institutions these days though.

    instead of piling on with the trump is going to jail train, I tend to be a lot more skeptical 
    Like I said before, POOTWH fucked with the wrong people. The type of people who get blown up in a tent along the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan by a double agent trying to keep this nation safe from real threats.
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

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  • static111static111 Posts: 3,993
    THE FIELD
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 
    Yes that’s true.  

    However the Supreme Court EPA case was this in reverse and was 6-3. The EPA as part of the executive can’t create laws or regulations which bypass congress. Since they are in effect legislating 

    that was the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch.   It’s reasonable to assume they could say declassifying national security information is the job of the executive not legislative as are what to do with presidential records. 

    You’ve got the same separation of powers issue dealing with the specific functions of each branch in both cases 
    I don't understand your point. Biden is the executive branch.  

    First,  we don't know if Trump's lawyers made the argument that he de-classified them.  But if they did,  I am confident that Biden would reverse that,  and instruct the DOJ to collect them.  Trump's lawyers would then be put on notice to return them.  All that could have taken place over the last 18 months. I don't understand a counter argument.  There is only one head of the executive branch. We already know that EOs only last a long as the current executive allows them. 
    If Biden reclassified that’s a different point.  We have no idea if he did or didn’t or when if he did 

    I’m saying if he didn’t reclassify them and am working on that assumption 

    All the laws and regulations including the presidential records act could be the legislative branch interfering with the executive 

    1. trump could have declassified using any process he wanted and thus didn’t commit a crime related to classified documents.
    2. any laws in relation to presidential records in general  are unconstitutional infringements on the executive branch from the legislative.  

    Thus all his records were both declassified and his rendering everything else moot.  

    Trump’s lawyers don’t really have a choice. They have to argue he declassified them 
    If that were their “legitimate” claim, why wasn’t it exercised from the moment the archives requested the return of the documents? Why would they lie about possessing documents they would claim the constitution allows them to have?

    Is the process of classifying and declassification, handling and storing, unconstitutional as well?
    I’m not saying I agree.

    im trying to view it through the opposing position to try to see what they may try to do.  It would be far more enjoyable if it wasn’t so real world 

    if I was in trumps camp there are definitely profound constitutional questions to raise 

    it’s safe to say the founders never anticipated this possibility 
    I don’t think SCOTUS can just toss aside The Espionage Act. Or the Government Records Retention Act. Nor just say POTUS doesn’t have to abide by past practice of executive branch departments that POTUS oversees without a formal process of rescission like issuing  EOs. These are well established guardrails. 
    Personally I don’t disagree with anything you are saying.

     I have less faith in our institutions these days though.

    instead of piling on with the trump is going to jail train, I tend to be a lot more skeptical 
    Like I said before, POOTWH fucked with the wrong people. The type of people who get blown up in a tent along the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan by a double agent trying to keep this nation safe from real threats.
    When has anyone blowing up another person at the border of Pakistan and Afghanistan, or any border for that matter, ever made this nation safer?
    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 26,749
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 
    Yes that’s true.  

    However the Supreme Court EPA case was this in reverse and was 6-3. The EPA as part of the executive can’t create laws or regulations which bypass congress. Since they are in effect legislating 

    that was the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch.   It’s reasonable to assume they could say declassifying national security information is the job of the executive not legislative as are what to do with presidential records. 

    You’ve got the same separation of powers issue dealing with the specific functions of each branch in both cases 
    I don't understand your point. Biden is the executive branch.  

    First,  we don't know if Trump's lawyers made the argument that he de-classified them.  But if they did,  I am confident that Biden would reverse that,  and instruct the DOJ to collect them.  Trump's lawyers would then be put on notice to return them.  All that could have taken place over the last 18 months. I don't understand a counter argument.  There is only one head of the executive branch. We already know that EOs only last a long as the current executive allows them. 
    If Biden reclassified that’s a different point.  We have no idea if he did or didn’t or when if he did 

    I’m saying if he didn’t reclassify them and am working on that assumption 

    All the laws and regulations including the presidential records act could be the legislative branch interfering with the executive 

    1. trump could have declassified using any process he wanted and thus didn’t commit a crime related to classified documents.
    2. any laws in relation to presidential records in general  are unconstitutional infringements on the executive branch from the legislative.  

    Thus all his records were both declassified (at least at some point between the day he left office and today) and his records, rendering everything else moot.  

    Trump’s lawyers don’t really have a choice. They have to argue he declassified them and they are his 

    given no paper trail of the alleged declassification how could Biden have known?
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 32,071
    2021
    static111 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 
    Yes that’s true.  

    However the Supreme Court EPA case was this in reverse and was 6-3. The EPA as part of the executive can’t create laws or regulations which bypass congress. Since they are in effect legislating 

    that was the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch.   It’s reasonable to assume they could say declassifying national security information is the job of the executive not legislative as are what to do with presidential records. 

    You’ve got the same separation of powers issue dealing with the specific functions of each branch in both cases 
    I don't understand your point. Biden is the executive branch.  

    First,  we don't know if Trump's lawyers made the argument that he de-classified them.  But if they did,  I am confident that Biden would reverse that,  and instruct the DOJ to collect them.  Trump's lawyers would then be put on notice to return them.  All that could have taken place over the last 18 months. I don't understand a counter argument.  There is only one head of the executive branch. We already know that EOs only last a long as the current executive allows them. 
    If Biden reclassified that’s a different point.  We have no idea if he did or didn’t or when if he did 

    I’m saying if he didn’t reclassify them and am working on that assumption 

    All the laws and regulations including the presidential records act could be the legislative branch interfering with the executive 

    1. trump could have declassified using any process he wanted and thus didn’t commit a crime related to classified documents.
    2. any laws in relation to presidential records in general  are unconstitutional infringements on the executive branch from the legislative.  

    Thus all his records were both declassified and his rendering everything else moot.  

    Trump’s lawyers don’t really have a choice. They have to argue he declassified them 
    If that were their “legitimate” claim, why wasn’t it exercised from the moment the archives requested the return of the documents? Why would they lie about possessing documents they would claim the constitution allows them to have?

    Is the process of classifying and declassification, handling and storing, unconstitutional as well?
    I’m not saying I agree.

    im trying to view it through the opposing position to try to see what they may try to do.  It would be far more enjoyable if it wasn’t so real world 

    if I was in trumps camp there are definitely profound constitutional questions to raise 

    it’s safe to say the founders never anticipated this possibility 
    I don’t think SCOTUS can just toss aside The Espionage Act. Or the Government Records Retention Act. Nor just say POTUS doesn’t have to abide by past practice of executive branch departments that POTUS oversees without a formal process of rescission like issuing  EOs. These are well established guardrails. 
    Personally I don’t disagree with anything you are saying.

     I have less faith in our institutions these days though.

    instead of piling on with the trump is going to jail train, I tend to be a lot more skeptical 
    Like I said before, POOTWH fucked with the wrong people. The type of people who get blown up in a tent along the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan by a double agent trying to keep this nation safe from real threats.
    When has anyone blowing up another person at the border of Pakistan and Afghanistan, or any border for that matter, ever made this nation safer?
    The professionals that do such shit because they believe in the constitution, those that work tirelessly to defend this country from threats don’t take kindly to the kind of shit POOTWH pulled. It gets them and their colleagues and sources killed. CIA headquarters has stars on a wall to memorialize them whether you like it or not, believe in it or not, or are opposed to it or not. The world is a dangerous place and there are people who would relish our demise. 
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

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  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited August 27
    mickeyrat said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 
    Yes that’s true.  

    However the Supreme Court EPA case was this in reverse and was 6-3. The EPA as part of the executive can’t create laws or regulations which bypass congress. Since they are in effect legislating 

    that was the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch.   It’s reasonable to assume they could say declassifying national security information is the job of the executive not legislative as are what to do with presidential records. 

    You’ve got the same separation of powers issue dealing with the specific functions of each branch in both cases 
    I don't understand your point. Biden is the executive branch.  

    First,  we don't know if Trump's lawyers made the argument that he de-classified them.  But if they did,  I am confident that Biden would reverse that,  and instruct the DOJ to collect them.  Trump's lawyers would then be put on notice to return them.  All that could have taken place over the last 18 months. I don't understand a counter argument.  There is only one head of the executive branch. We already know that EOs only last a long as the current executive allows them. 
    If Biden reclassified that’s a different point.  We have no idea if he did or didn’t or when if he did 

    I’m saying if he didn’t reclassify them and am working on that assumption 

    All the laws and regulations including the presidential records act could be the legislative branch interfering with the executive 

    1. trump could have declassified using any process he wanted and thus didn’t commit a crime related to classified documents.
    2. any laws in relation to presidential records in general  are unconstitutional infringements on the executive branch from the legislative.  

    Thus all his records were both declassified (at least at some point between the day he left office and today) and his records, rendering everything else moot.  

    Trump’s lawyers don’t really have a choice. They have to argue he declassified them and they are his 

    given no paper trail of the alleged declassification how could Biden have known?
    He wouldn’t. It’s a vague claim but presidential authority is also vague as is the process as it relates to a president specifically.  A president can declassify what they want. Trump tweeted highly classified spy photos of Iran while president. That’s his right, perfectly legal. No process no paper trail saying they are declassified.  He didn’t have to write a memo declaring the status change. Magic declassification.  The only hint they were declassified was the fact the picture was posted publicly.  

    Can he declassify and should he declassify aren’t the same thing. He obviously shouldn’t have, but he can and has in similarly shady circumstances 

    as to presidential records being “personal records”
    basically the judgment was if Clinton had the records in his possession they are therefore personal records and his.  Trump will use this case reguardless of what the presidential records act states 

    The 10-year-old court ruling, issued by U.S. District Court Judge Amy Berman Jackson, rejected arguments by a conservative watchdog group that sought access to dozens of tapes recorded by Mr. Clinton and historian Taylor Branch during his administration.

    “What it highlights is that under the law, and the Justice Department’s prior legal positions, if Clinton had the tapes, they are presumably personal,” Tom Fitton, president of Judicial Watch, told The Washington Times. His group filed an unsuccessful lawsuit seeking the Clinton recordings.


    Those tapes (presidential records) were at Clinton’s house 


    The point is simply there is a window to get out of both the classified angle and the possessing records at his house angle.  If you can successfully argue they are both declassified and personal, what crime is there? 

    If possession of the records is the standard for them being “personal” it doesn’t even matter what’s in those records.  We have no idea what the Clinton tapes contain for example.  The content seemed to be irrelevant 

    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 26,749
    mickeyrat said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 
    Yes that’s true.  

    However the Supreme Court EPA case was this in reverse and was 6-3. The EPA as part of the executive can’t create laws or regulations which bypass congress. Since they are in effect legislating 

    that was the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch.   It’s reasonable to assume they could say declassifying national security information is the job of the executive not legislative as are what to do with presidential records. 

    You’ve got the same separation of powers issue dealing with the specific functions of each branch in both cases 
    I don't understand your point. Biden is the executive branch.  

    First,  we don't know if Trump's lawyers made the argument that he de-classified them.  But if they did,  I am confident that Biden would reverse that,  and instruct the DOJ to collect them.  Trump's lawyers would then be put on notice to return them.  All that could have taken place over the last 18 months. I don't understand a counter argument.  There is only one head of the executive branch. We already know that EOs only last a long as the current executive allows them. 
    If Biden reclassified that’s a different point.  We have no idea if he did or didn’t or when if he did 

    I’m saying if he didn’t reclassify them and am working on that assumption 

    All the laws and regulations including the presidential records act could be the legislative branch interfering with the executive 

    1. trump could have declassified using any process he wanted and thus didn’t commit a crime related to classified documents.
    2. any laws in relation to presidential records in general  are unconstitutional infringements on the executive branch from the legislative.  

    Thus all his records were both declassified (at least at some point between the day he left office and today) and his records, rendering everything else moot.  

    Trump’s lawyers don’t really have a choice. They have to argue he declassified them and they are his 

    given no paper trail of the alleged declassification how could Biden have known?
    He wouldn’t. It’s a vague claim but presidential authority is also vague as is the process as it relates to a president specifically.  A president can declassify what they want. Trump tweeted highly classified spy photos of Iran while president. That’s his right, perfectly legal. No process no paper trail saying they are declassified 

    as to presidential records being “personal records”
    basically the judgment was if Clinton had the records in his possession they are therefore personal records and his.  Trump will use this case reguardless of what the presidential records act states 

    The 10-year-old court ruling, issued by U.S. District Court Judge Amy Berman Jackson, rejected arguments by a conservative watchdog group that sought access to dozens of tapes recorded by Mr. Clinton and historian Taylor Branch during his administration.

    “What it highlights is that under the law, and the Justice Department’s prior legal positions, if Clinton had the tapes, they are presumably personal,” Tom Fitton, president of Judicial Watch, told The Washington Times. His group filed an unsuccessful lawsuit seeking the Clinton recordings.


    Those tapes (presidential records) were at Clinton’s house 


    The point is simply there is a window to get out of both the classified angle and the possessing records at his house angle.  If you can successfully argue they are both declassified and personal, what crime is there? 

    If possession of the records is the standard for them being “personal” it doesn’t even matter what’s in those records.  We have no idea what the Clinton tapes contain for example.  The content seemed to be irrelevant 


    the documents as described are in no way personal. the letters etc mixed in are. documents marked with a classification of any degree belong to the united states. even IF he declassified some or all, there is a procedure for doing so. there does not appear to be any record of such declassification and STILL THEY ALL BELONG TO THE UNITED STATES
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited August 27
    mickeyrat said:
    mickeyrat said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 
    Yes that’s true.  

    However the Supreme Court EPA case was this in reverse and was 6-3. The EPA as part of the executive can’t create laws or regulations which bypass congress. Since they are in effect legislating 

    that was the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch.   It’s reasonable to assume they could say declassifying national security information is the job of the executive not legislative as are what to do with presidential records. 

    You’ve got the same separation of powers issue dealing with the specific functions of each branch in both cases 
    I don't understand your point. Biden is the executive branch.  

    First,  we don't know if Trump's lawyers made the argument that he de-classified them.  But if they did,  I am confident that Biden would reverse that,  and instruct the DOJ to collect them.  Trump's lawyers would then be put on notice to return them.  All that could have taken place over the last 18 months. I don't understand a counter argument.  There is only one head of the executive branch. We already know that EOs only last a long as the current executive allows them. 
    If Biden reclassified that’s a different point.  We have no idea if he did or didn’t or when if he did 

    I’m saying if he didn’t reclassify them and am working on that assumption 

    All the laws and regulations including the presidential records act could be the legislative branch interfering with the executive 

    1. trump could have declassified using any process he wanted and thus didn’t commit a crime related to classified documents.
    2. any laws in relation to presidential records in general  are unconstitutional infringements on the executive branch from the legislative.  

    Thus all his records were both declassified (at least at some point between the day he left office and today) and his records, rendering everything else moot.  

    Trump’s lawyers don’t really have a choice. They have to argue he declassified them and they are his 

    given no paper trail of the alleged declassification how could Biden have known?
    He wouldn’t. It’s a vague claim but presidential authority is also vague as is the process as it relates to a president specifically.  A president can declassify what they want. Trump tweeted highly classified spy photos of Iran while president. That’s his right, perfectly legal. No process no paper trail saying they are declassified 

    as to presidential records being “personal records”
    basically the judgment was if Clinton had the records in his possession they are therefore personal records and his.  Trump will use this case reguardless of what the presidential records act states 

    The 10-year-old court ruling, issued by U.S. District Court Judge Amy Berman Jackson, rejected arguments by a conservative watchdog group that sought access to dozens of tapes recorded by Mr. Clinton and historian Taylor Branch during his administration.

    “What it highlights is that under the law, and the Justice Department’s prior legal positions, if Clinton had the tapes, they are presumably personal,” Tom Fitton, president of Judicial Watch, told The Washington Times. His group filed an unsuccessful lawsuit seeking the Clinton recordings.


    Those tapes (presidential records) were at Clinton’s house 


    The point is simply there is a window to get out of both the classified angle and the possessing records at his house angle.  If you can successfully argue they are both declassified and personal, what crime is there? 

    If possession of the records is the standard for them being “personal” it doesn’t even matter what’s in those records.  We have no idea what the Clinton tapes contain for example.  The content seemed to be irrelevant 


    the documents as described are in no way personal. the letters etc mixed in are. documents marked with a classification of any degree belong to the united states. even IF he declassified some or all, there is a procedure for doing so. there does not appear to be any record of such declassification and STILL THEY ALL BELONG TO THE UNITED STATES
    Not according to the Clinton case.  
    It’s like the phrase possession is 9/10 of the law.

    the Clinton tapes were found to be personal NOT because they were personal necessarily but because they were in his possession. 

    The fact he has them makes them personal.
    Possession = personal
    not
    content =personal 

    It comes down to who decides what is a personal record and what isn’t. Presumably the president decides when he packed them while still president. If a president doesn’t have that authority to decide, who does constitutionally? 

    I’m not saying that makes sense. That’s what the judgment was and it’s exactly the claim judicial watch is making to support trump after losing the Clinton case arguing Clinton’s records belonged to the United States. That lawyer is advising trump 

    when you can point to a previous case as a precedent it’s a lot harder to lose in court.  Trump may still lose the argument but he has at least some case law on his side 

    in no way is this as open and shut of a case as many are suggesting. The entire point of trump is his history of muddying the waters to make everything chaotic. This is absolutely that.

    this entire case needs to be looked at like a game of chess not checkers .
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 32,071
    2021
    mickeyrat said:
    mickeyrat said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 
    Yes that’s true.  

    However the Supreme Court EPA case was this in reverse and was 6-3. The EPA as part of the executive can’t create laws or regulations which bypass congress. Since they are in effect legislating 

    that was the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch.   It’s reasonable to assume they could say declassifying national security information is the job of the executive not legislative as are what to do with presidential records. 

    You’ve got the same separation of powers issue dealing with the specific functions of each branch in both cases 
    I don't understand your point. Biden is the executive branch.  

    First,  we don't know if Trump's lawyers made the argument that he de-classified them.  But if they did,  I am confident that Biden would reverse that,  and instruct the DOJ to collect them.  Trump's lawyers would then be put on notice to return them.  All that could have taken place over the last 18 months. I don't understand a counter argument.  There is only one head of the executive branch. We already know that EOs only last a long as the current executive allows them. 
    If Biden reclassified that’s a different point.  We have no idea if he did or didn’t or when if he did 

    I’m saying if he didn’t reclassify them and am working on that assumption 

    All the laws and regulations including the presidential records act could be the legislative branch interfering with the executive 

    1. trump could have declassified using any process he wanted and thus didn’t commit a crime related to classified documents.
    2. any laws in relation to presidential records in general  are unconstitutional infringements on the executive branch from the legislative.  

    Thus all his records were both declassified (at least at some point between the day he left office and today) and his records, rendering everything else moot.  

    Trump’s lawyers don’t really have a choice. They have to argue he declassified them and they are his 

    given no paper trail of the alleged declassification how could Biden have known?
    He wouldn’t. It’s a vague claim but presidential authority is also vague as is the process as it relates to a president specifically.  A president can declassify what they want. Trump tweeted highly classified spy photos of Iran while president. That’s his right, perfectly legal. No process no paper trail saying they are declassified 

    as to presidential records being “personal records”
    basically the judgment was if Clinton had the records in his possession they are therefore personal records and his.  Trump will use this case reguardless of what the presidential records act states 

    The 10-year-old court ruling, issued by U.S. District Court Judge Amy Berman Jackson, rejected arguments by a conservative watchdog group that sought access to dozens of tapes recorded by Mr. Clinton and historian Taylor Branch during his administration.

    “What it highlights is that under the law, and the Justice Department’s prior legal positions, if Clinton had the tapes, they are presumably personal,” Tom Fitton, president of Judicial Watch, told The Washington Times. His group filed an unsuccessful lawsuit seeking the Clinton recordings.


    Those tapes (presidential records) were at Clinton’s house 


    The point is simply there is a window to get out of both the classified angle and the possessing records at his house angle.  If you can successfully argue they are both declassified and personal, what crime is there? 

    If possession of the records is the standard for them being “personal” it doesn’t even matter what’s in those records.  We have no idea what the Clinton tapes contain for example.  The content seemed to be irrelevant 


    the documents as described are in no way personal. the letters etc mixed in are. documents marked with a classification of any degree belong to the united states. even IF he declassified some or all, there is a procedure for doing so. there does not appear to be any record of such declassification and STILL THEY ALL BELONG TO THE UNITED STATES
    Not according to the Clinton case.  
    It’s like the phrase possession is 9/10 of the law.

    the Clinton tapes were found to be personal NOT because they were personal necessarily but because they were in his possession. 

    The fact he has them makes them personal.
    Possession = personal
    not
    content =personal 

    It comes down to who decides what is a personal record and what isn’t. Presumably the president decides when he packed them while still president. If a president doesn’t have that authority to decide, who does constitutionally? 

    I’m not saying that makes sense. That’s what the judgment was and it’s exactly the claim judicial watch is making to support trump after losing the Clinton case arguing Clinton’s records belonged to the United States. That lawyer is advising trump 

    when you can point to a previous case as a precedent it’s a lot harder to lose in court.  Trump may still lose the argument but he has at least some case law on his side 

    in no way is this as open and shut of a case as many are suggesting. The entire point of trump is his history of muddying the waters to make everything chaotic. This is absolutely that.

    this entire case needs to be looked at like a game of chess not checkers .
    Does everything you posit POOTWH POOTWH’s swearing to his oath of office?
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

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  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited August 27
    mickeyrat said:
    mickeyrat said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 
    Yes that’s true.  

    However the Supreme Court EPA case was this in reverse and was 6-3. The EPA as part of the executive can’t create laws or regulations which bypass congress. Since they are in effect legislating 

    that was the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch.   It’s reasonable to assume they could say declassifying national security information is the job of the executive not legislative as are what to do with presidential records. 

    You’ve got the same separation of powers issue dealing with the specific functions of each branch in both cases 
    I don't understand your point. Biden is the executive branch.  

    First,  we don't know if Trump's lawyers made the argument that he de-classified them.  But if they did,  I am confident that Biden would reverse that,  and instruct the DOJ to collect them.  Trump's lawyers would then be put on notice to return them.  All that could have taken place over the last 18 months. I don't understand a counter argument.  There is only one head of the executive branch. We already know that EOs only last a long as the current executive allows them. 
    If Biden reclassified that’s a different point.  We have no idea if he did or didn’t or when if he did 

    I’m saying if he didn’t reclassify them and am working on that assumption 

    All the laws and regulations including the presidential records act could be the legislative branch interfering with the executive 

    1. trump could have declassified using any process he wanted and thus didn’t commit a crime related to classified documents.
    2. any laws in relation to presidential records in general  are unconstitutional infringements on the executive branch from the legislative.  

    Thus all his records were both declassified (at least at some point between the day he left office and today) and his records, rendering everything else moot.  

    Trump’s lawyers don’t really have a choice. They have to argue he declassified them and they are his 

    given no paper trail of the alleged declassification how could Biden have known?
    He wouldn’t. It’s a vague claim but presidential authority is also vague as is the process as it relates to a president specifically.  A president can declassify what they want. Trump tweeted highly classified spy photos of Iran while president. That’s his right, perfectly legal. No process no paper trail saying they are declassified 

    as to presidential records being “personal records”
    basically the judgment was if Clinton had the records in his possession they are therefore personal records and his.  Trump will use this case reguardless of what the presidential records act states 

    The 10-year-old court ruling, issued by U.S. District Court Judge Amy Berman Jackson, rejected arguments by a conservative watchdog group that sought access to dozens of tapes recorded by Mr. Clinton and historian Taylor Branch during his administration.

    “What it highlights is that under the law, and the Justice Department’s prior legal positions, if Clinton had the tapes, they are presumably personal,” Tom Fitton, president of Judicial Watch, told The Washington Times. His group filed an unsuccessful lawsuit seeking the Clinton recordings.


    Those tapes (presidential records) were at Clinton’s house 


    The point is simply there is a window to get out of both the classified angle and the possessing records at his house angle.  If you can successfully argue they are both declassified and personal, what crime is there? 

    If possession of the records is the standard for them being “personal” it doesn’t even matter what’s in those records.  We have no idea what the Clinton tapes contain for example.  The content seemed to be irrelevant 


    the documents as described are in no way personal. the letters etc mixed in are. documents marked with a classification of any degree belong to the united states. even IF he declassified some or all, there is a procedure for doing so. there does not appear to be any record of such declassification and STILL THEY ALL BELONG TO THE UNITED STATES
    Not according to the Clinton case.  
    It’s like the phrase possession is 9/10 of the law.

    the Clinton tapes were found to be personal NOT because they were personal necessarily but because they were in his possession. 

    The fact he has them makes them personal.
    Possession = personal
    not
    content =personal 

    It comes down to who decides what is a personal record and what isn’t. Presumably the president decides when he packed them while still president. If a president doesn’t have that authority to decide, who does constitutionally? 

    I’m not saying that makes sense. That’s what the judgment was and it’s exactly the claim judicial watch is making to support trump after losing the Clinton case arguing Clinton’s records belonged to the United States. That lawyer is advising trump 

    when you can point to a previous case as a precedent it’s a lot harder to lose in court.  Trump may still lose the argument but he has at least some case law on his side 

    in no way is this as open and shut of a case as many are suggesting. The entire point of trump is his history of muddying the waters to make everything chaotic. This is absolutely that.

    this entire case needs to be looked at like a game of chess not checkers .
    Does everything you posit POOTWH POOTWH’s swearing to his oath of office?
    What’s the enforcement mechanism of the oath of office? Impeachment?

    The battle is really:
    the government is right  based on existing law absolutely on a lot of this stuff  and that’s the assumption they are going with as they have to enforce existing law. They have no choice.  They don’t interpret it, they enforce it as written

    Trump could be right in the sense that those laws are invalid/not applicable/unconstitutional based on a combination of executive authority and separation of powers 

    The  definition of unconstitutional is whatever the Supreme Court says it is. It’s not black and white 

    trump broke the law, that’s not in question. The validity of the law(s) are 

    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 26,749
    the tapes were generated BY Clinton.  Seems that would be the fundamental difference between the 2 cases.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

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  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited August 27
    mickeyrat said:
    the tapes were generated BY Clinton.  Seems that would be the fundamental difference between the 2 cases.
    Maybe but handwritten notes by trump are supposedly presidential records too. The ones he put in the toilet. Same thing. 

    It’s going to be interesting. At the end of the day we need to acknowledge that there is a possibility trump could win the legal argument.  

    Really I don’t even think it’s about trump at all.  These right wing legal circles are trying to push the trump case to make presidential authority absolute, for the next guy. Not trump. Trump is means to an end 

    Trump could go to jail also, they won’t care he goes to jail. They will care they lost the legal argument.  There is a lot of people who want to move to authoritarian government. This case is a way to move in that direction.  

    Trump has been getting legal advise to keep the records, we already know that. Why? 
    To advance an authoritarian agenda generally or because it’s in Trump’s best interest? I think the former.  Trump is an old man, this goes beyond his lifetime 

    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 33,222
    THE FIELD
    fascinating reading. 
    I think I'll move to Australia


  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 32,071
    edited August 27
    2021
    mickeyrat said:
    mickeyrat said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    It doesn't matter if Trump argued that he declassified them.  Biden could re-classify them as well,  requiring any return of the documents.  And the possession of them,  regardless of classification,  is still a criminal violation. 
    Yes that’s true.  

    However the Supreme Court EPA case was this in reverse and was 6-3. The EPA as part of the executive can’t create laws or regulations which bypass congress. Since they are in effect legislating 

    that was the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch.   It’s reasonable to assume they could say declassifying national security information is the job of the executive not legislative as are what to do with presidential records. 

    You’ve got the same separation of powers issue dealing with the specific functions of each branch in both cases 
    I don't understand your point. Biden is the executive branch.  

    First,  we don't know if Trump's lawyers made the argument that he de-classified them.  But if they did,  I am confident that Biden would reverse that,  and instruct the DOJ to collect them.  Trump's lawyers would then be put on notice to return them.  All that could have taken place over the last 18 months. I don't understand a counter argument.  There is only one head of the executive branch. We already know that EOs only last a long as the current executive allows them. 
    If Biden reclassified that’s a different point.  We have no idea if he did or didn’t or when if he did 

    I’m saying if he didn’t reclassify them and am working on that assumption 

    All the laws and regulations including the presidential records act could be the legislative branch interfering with the executive 

    1. trump could have declassified using any process he wanted and thus didn’t commit a crime related to classified documents.
    2. any laws in relation to presidential records in general  are unconstitutional infringements on the executive branch from the legislative.  

    Thus all his records were both declassified (at least at some point between the day he left office and today) and his records, rendering everything else moot.  

    Trump’s lawyers don’t really have a choice. They have to argue he declassified them and they are his 

    given no paper trail of the alleged declassification how could Biden have known?
    He wouldn’t. It’s a vague claim but presidential authority is also vague as is the process as it relates to a president specifically.  A president can declassify what they want. Trump tweeted highly classified spy photos of Iran while president. That’s his right, perfectly legal. No process no paper trail saying they are declassified 

    as to presidential records being “personal records”
    basically the judgment was if Clinton had the records in his possession they are therefore personal records and his.  Trump will use this case reguardless of what the presidential records act states 

    The 10-year-old court ruling, issued by U.S. District Court Judge Amy Berman Jackson, rejected arguments by a conservative watchdog group that sought access to dozens of tapes recorded by Mr. Clinton and historian Taylor Branch during his administration.

    “What it highlights is that under the law, and the Justice Department’s prior legal positions, if Clinton had the tapes, they are presumably personal,” Tom Fitton, president of Judicial Watch, told The Washington Times. His group filed an unsuccessful lawsuit seeking the Clinton recordings.


    Those tapes (presidential records) were at Clinton’s house 


    The point is simply there is a window to get out of both the classified angle and the possessing records at his house angle.  If you can successfully argue they are both declassified and personal, what crime is there? 

    If possession of the records is the standard for them being “personal” it doesn’t even matter what’s in those records.  We have no idea what the Clinton tapes contain for example.  The content seemed to be irrelevant 


    the documents as described are in no way personal. the letters etc mixed in are. documents marked with a classification of any degree belong to the united states. even IF he declassified some or all, there is a procedure for doing so. there does not appear to be any record of such declassification and STILL THEY ALL BELONG TO THE UNITED STATES
    Not according to the Clinton case.  
    It’s like the phrase possession is 9/10 of the law.

    the Clinton tapes were found to be personal NOT because they were personal necessarily but because they were in his possession. 

    The fact he has them makes them personal.
    Possession = personal
    not
    content =personal 

    It comes down to who decides what is a personal record and what isn’t. Presumably the president decides when he packed them while still president. If a president doesn’t have that authority to decide, who does constitutionally? 

    I’m not saying that makes sense. That’s what the judgment was and it’s exactly the claim judicial watch is making to support trump after losing the Clinton case arguing Clinton’s records belonged to the United States. That lawyer is advising trump 

    when you can point to a previous case as a precedent it’s a lot harder to lose in court.  Trump may still lose the argument but he has at least some case law on his side 

    in no way is this as open and shut of a case as many are suggesting. The entire point of trump is his history of muddying the waters to make everything chaotic. This is absolutely that.

    this entire case needs to be looked at like a game of chess not checkers .
    Does everything you posit POOTWH POOTWH’s swearing to his oath of office?
    What’s the enforcement mechanism of the oath of office? Impeachment?

    The battle is really:
    the government is right  based on existing law absolutely on a lot of this stuff  and that’s the assumption they are going with as they have to enforce existing law. They have no choice.  They don’t interpret it, they enforce it as written

    Trump could be right in the sense that those laws are invalid/not applicable/unconstitutional based on a combination of executive authority and separation of powers 

    The  definition of unconstitutional is whatever the Supreme Court says it is. It’s not black and white 

    trump broke the law, that’s not in question. The validity of the law(s) are 

    When POOTWH took the oath of office, he swore allegiance to the Constitution of these United States and swore to god, for what’s that’s worth, to defend the constitution and these United States from all enemies foreign and domestic. He may have, through his actions, committed treason, mentioned specifically in and prescribing punishment for in the constitution, upon conviction with two witnesses or by admission of guilt. The Congress shall have the authority to punish as they deem fit. Seeing how he wasn’t POTUS at the time, it’s kicked to the courts.

    Further, Article I deals with the legislative branch while Article II deals with the executive. It would appear, if you’re a strict constitutionalist, that the founders put the power with those elected by the people over the executive. Otherwise the subject of those Articles would be reversed. The espionage act was passed by the legislative branch and has been amended and expanded a number of times since. To now claim it doesn’t apply to POOTWH or POTUS because it’s never been challenged in this context or because POOTWH got caught is specious at best, desparado at worst.

    But with these white supremacists being elected and popular, nothing surprises me anymore. Good night‘Murica, I’ll turn the light out for you.
    Post edited by Halifax2TheMax on
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  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 26,749
    edited August 27
    mickeyrat said:
    the tapes were generated BY Clinton.  Seems that would be the fundamental difference between the 2 cases.
    Maybe but handwritten notes by trump are supposedly presidential records too. The ones he put in the toilet. Same thing. 

    It’s going to be interesting. At the end of the day we need to acknowledge that there is a possibility trump could win the legal argument.  

    Really I don’t even think it’s about trump at all.  These right wing legal circles are trying to push the trump case to make presidential authority absolute, for the next guy. Not trump. Trump is means to an end 

    Trump could go to jail also, they won’t care he goes to jail. They will care they lost the legal argument.  There is a lot of people who want to move to authoritarian government. This case is a way to move in that direction.  

    Trump has been getting legal advise to keep the records, we already know that. Why? 
    To advance an authoritarian agenda generally or because it’s in Trump’s best interest? I think the former.  Trump is an old man, this goes beyond his lifetime 


    altering or destroying government property.....
    his scribbling on those documents fo not nake them his. they remain the property of the united states.

    Post edited by mickeyrat on
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    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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