*** DONALD J TRUMP HAS OFFICIALLY BEEN INDICTED ***

Halifax2TheMax

2021

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Its hard to think all 34 charges relate to the Stormy payment. My understanding is hush money isn't illegal, its actually done all the time. But its where that money came from and how it was paid. You'd probably have to do a lot of clever writing to come up with 34 charges related to that. And the fact its sealed, I think I heard Trump and his lawyers don't even know all the charges.
Either there's something big here, or its going to backfire. We'll know soon enough.

Sounds like someone with experience.

You've never heard of an NDA? You don't have to have experience to know they are common with wealthy people. 
I first learned about it when I was like 8 and Michael Jackson paid off that kid to drop the charges and not talk about it. 

An NDA is not the same as “hush money.” Don’t confuse the two. How many people do you know that have paid “hush money,” being done all the time, even among wealthy people? You’ve listed one example. And last time I checked, MJ never ran for POTUS.

And as far as smoking guns go, do you mean like Hunter’s laptop? 

mace1229

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Its hard to think all 34 charges relate to the Stormy payment. My understanding is hush money isn't illegal, its actually done all the time. But its where that money came from and how it was paid. You'd probably have to do a lot of clever writing to come up with 34 charges related to that. And the fact its sealed, I think I heard Trump and his lawyers don't even know all the charges.
Either there's something big here, or its going to backfire. We'll know soon enough.

Sounds like someone with experience.

You've never heard of an NDA? You don't have to have experience to know they are common with wealthy people. 
I first learned about it when I was like 8 and Michael Jackson paid off that kid to drop the charges and not talk about it. 

An NDA is not the same as “hush money.” Don’t confuse the two. How many people do you know that have paid “hush money,” being done all the time, even among wealthy people? You’ve listed one example.

And as far as smoking guns go, do you mean like Hunter’s laptop? 

How is hush money not a form of an NDA?
I pay you to not tell your story, and you sign here agreeing to this.
Like I said, I first learned about it when Michael Jackson did it 30 years ago. Its common enough to where I've know what it is for a long time. 
The purpose of hush money is that we won't know. If I knew all of the examples, it would be pointless to pay out, wouldn't it?

mace1229

A quick google search listed Letterman, Betty Davis, tiger woods, Celine dion, tupoc, bill Cosby as paying hush money. I stopped reading the search results after that. I'm surprised anyone thinks this I rare and needs examples to know its done.

Halifax2TheMax

2021

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Its hard to think all 34 charges relate to the Stormy payment. My understanding is hush money isn't illegal, its actually done all the time. But its where that money came from and how it was paid. You'd probably have to do a lot of clever writing to come up with 34 charges related to that. And the fact its sealed, I think I heard Trump and his lawyers don't even know all the charges.
Either there's something big here, or its going to backfire. We'll know soon enough.

Sounds like someone with experience.

You've never heard of an NDA? You don't have to have experience to know they are common with wealthy people. 
I first learned about it when I was like 8 and Michael Jackson paid off that kid to drop the charges and not talk about it. 

An NDA is not the same as “hush money.” Don’t confuse the two. How many people do you know that have paid “hush money,” being done all the time, even among wealthy people? You’ve listed one example.

And as far as smoking guns go, do you mean like Hunter’s laptop? 

How is hush money not a form of an NDA?
I pay you to not tell your story, and you sign here agreeing to this.
Like I said, I first learned about it when Michael Jackson did it 30 years ago. Its common enough to where I've know what it is for a long time. 

Geeze, maybe in the context of non-compete and non-disclosures in the legitimate business world an NDA is common. In fact, its even becoming more common, like with high end hair salon employees and chefs. Paying off porn stars to not discuss your liaison as a candidate for POTUS is not "normal" or "common." And your example of it being "common" is not, particularly in the context of POTUS candidates.

"Hush money" is not an NDA. Remember, you started by saying, "hush money isn't illegal, its actually done all the time." You didn't say, "NDAs are common, they're done all the time."

mace1229

Is what I said wrong? Is hush money illegal?
I didn't know I needed to talk about business NDAs as well. I didn't say toilet paper is common and everyone uses it. Was I supposed to?

mace1229

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Its hard to think all 34 charges relate to the Stormy payment. My understanding is hush money isn't illegal, its actually done all the time. But its where that money came from and how it was paid. You'd probably have to do a lot of clever writing to come up with 34 charges related to that. And the fact its sealed, I think I heard Trump and his lawyers don't even know all the charges.
Either there's something big here, or its going to backfire. We'll know soon enough.

Sounds like someone with experience.

You've never heard of an NDA? You don't have to have experience to know they are common with wealthy people. 
I first learned about it when I was like 8 and Michael Jackson paid off that kid to drop the charges and not talk about it. 

An NDA is not the same as “hush money.” Don’t confuse the two. How many people do you know that have paid “hush money,” being done all the time, even among wealthy people? You’ve listed one example. And last time I checked, MJ never ran for POTUS.

And as far as smoking guns go, do you mean like Hunter’s laptop? 

Can you show me one example where I said the laptop was a smoking gun, or even a big deal? I need to know if my account was hacked. 

Halifax2TheMax

2021

mace1229 said:

Is what I said wrong? Is hush money illegal?
I didn't know I needed to talk about business NDAs as well. I didn't say toilet paper is common and everyone uses it. Was I supposed to?

Is it common for NDAs to be signed 10 years after you started employment and nothing else has changed? Stop trying to normalize POOTWH's behavior. If you meant to say NDAs, say NDAs. Again, "hush money" is not the same as an NDA, especially 10 years after the fact.

What does the legality of "hush money" have to do with it? But to answer your question, in some circumstances, yes, yes it very much is. Are NDAs illegal?

Merkin Baller

The indictment is about campaign finance laws, & not hush money, no?

The Juggler

2022

mace1229 said:

The Juggler said:

mace1229 said:

Merkin Baller said:

It's been ugly for several years now; the finger wagging that this is going to get [uglier] if the charges don't stick is tiring. The fact is, no one knows what's going to happen, this is uncharted territory for the nation. 

If deplorable people want to act more deplorable because law enforcement agencies are doing their job, that's on them.

It's been like 12 hours, how are you that tired of its going to get uglier already?
But you're right on a few things. It's been ugly a while, and no one knows what's going to happen. I still predict the reaction is going to be even worse if there isn't a smoking gun and something more than hush money. There's probably going to be protests this weekend either way, just how bad will depend on what they know and have.

Smoking gun? Mace, he's already indicted. His lawyer has already spent a year in jail. We are well past the point of smoking guns here. 

And, again, there are more indictments in his short term future. Buckle up. 

A few things I want to address.

I think those who said it wouldn't have gotten this far unless its a strong case are right.

I only made my first comment because I don't understand the response JB got when he said he hopes this sticks because if it doesn't, it will get ugly(ier). He's right. Those who breached the capitol because they thought the election was stolen, what will they do if they think he was wrongfully arrested? So why laugh at him for that comment? 

But I do have some questions. And I'm not asking because I think none of this sticks and is a witch hunt. I want to know.
What is the smoking gun that has been released to the public? Here's my understanding of what we know.
Hush money itself isn't illegal. How it is obtained can be. Trump and his attorneys had way more than enough money to pay off the $130,000 to Stormy. Doesn't Trump just have to argue he wanted Stormy quiet for personal reasons, he's married with kids, and not political? Then there's no campaign tie in. Cohen actually paid it her himself, not with any campaign funds.
I've seen conflicting stories if Trump paid Cohen back or not, I saw some where it was included in his monthly billing fees for a while, I saw some where Cohen denies being paid back.  Either way, I don't understand how that is a violation on Trump.

So by smoking gun I mean what do we know now that makes that untrue?

I know Cohen spent time in jail. Was every charge he faced connected with Stormy and/or Trump? I thought he was facing a bunch of charges, some were connected and some were not, and he just took a plea for it all? If that's the case, that doesn't say much.

The issue isn't just the hush money. I believe the issue is that it was paid to her to benefit his campaign but he did not report it as a campaign expense. So, basically, he hid that from the public and that is illegal. They will try and argue that it was only personal and not campaign related.....but she was paid off right before the election and shortly after the Access Hollywood tapes had come out. I think the timing makes this pretty obvious. Given how close that election was, you can easily make the argument that he would never have become president had the public known about this. 

Cohn went to jail for a few reasons, chief among them were campaign finance charges stemming from this Stormy Daniels case. He admitted he paid her off at the direction of Donald Trump. How that doesn't say much doesn't make a whole lot of sense. He went to jail, in large part, because he followed illegal orders given to him by the former president. Why should only Cohen pay a price for that? 

Poncier

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Its hard to think all 34 charges relate to the Stormy payment. My understanding is hush money isn't illegal, its actually done all the time. But its where that money came from and how it was paid. You'd probably have to do a lot of clever writing to come up with 34 charges related to that. And the fact its sealed, I think I heard Trump and his lawyers don't even know all the charges.
Either there's something big here, or its going to backfire. We'll know soon enough.

Sounds like someone with experience.

You've never heard of an NDA? You don't have to have experience to know they are common with wealthy people. 
I first learned about it when I was like 8 and Michael Jackson paid off that kid to drop the charges and not talk about it. 

How much did you get?

mace1229

Merkin Baller said:

The indictment is about campaign finance laws, & not hush money, no?

I believe the argument is that the hush money violated campaign laws. The debate is since it likely helped his political campaign, it should have been considered campaign funds or something. In which case, it was not allowed or needed to be reported differently. 
My understanding is if Trump can claim he wanted his affair kept quiet for personal and not political reasons, then there was nothing wrong with how it was paid. 

mace1229

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Is what I said wrong? Is hush money illegal?
I didn't know I needed to talk about business NDAs as well. I didn't say toilet paper is common and everyone uses it. Was I supposed to?

Is it common for NDAs to be signed 10 years after you started employment and nothing else has changed? Stop trying to normalize POOTWH's behavior. If you meant to say NDAs, say NDAs. Again, "hush money" is not the same as an NDA, especially 10 years after the fact.

What does the legality of "hush money" have to do with it? But to answer your question, in some circumstances, yes, yes it very much is. Are NDAs illegal?

10 years is how long it took for Storny to start pushing her story. So yeah, you wouldn't pay off someone who isn't threatening to go public with their story, would you?

We'll have to disagree on hush money vs NDA. You sign a contract not to talk, its an NDA. All hush money is an NDA, not all NDAs are hush money.

Merkin Baller

The Juggler said:

mace1229 said:

The Juggler said:

mace1229 said:

Merkin Baller said:

It's been ugly for several years now; the finger wagging that this is going to get [uglier] if the charges don't stick is tiring. The fact is, no one knows what's going to happen, this is uncharted territory for the nation. 

If deplorable people want to act more deplorable because law enforcement agencies are doing their job, that's on them.

It's been like 12 hours, how are you that tired of its going to get uglier already?
But you're right on a few things. It's been ugly a while, and no one knows what's going to happen. I still predict the reaction is going to be even worse if there isn't a smoking gun and something more than hush money. There's probably going to be protests this weekend either way, just how bad will depend on what they know and have.

Smoking gun? Mace, he's already indicted. His lawyer has already spent a year in jail. We are well past the point of smoking guns here. 

And, again, there are more indictments in his short term future. Buckle up. 

A few things I want to address.

I think those who said it wouldn't have gotten this far unless its a strong case are right.

I only made my first comment because I don't understand the response JB got when he said he hopes this sticks because if it doesn't, it will get ugly(ier). He's right. Those who breached the capitol because they thought the election was stolen, what will they do if they think he was wrongfully arrested? So why laugh at him for that comment? 

But I do have some questions. And I'm not asking because I think none of this sticks and is a witch hunt. I want to know.
What is the smoking gun that has been released to the public? Here's my understanding of what we know.
Hush money itself isn't illegal. How it is obtained can be. Trump and his attorneys had way more than enough money to pay off the $130,000 to Stormy. Doesn't Trump just have to argue he wanted Stormy quiet for personal reasons, he's married with kids, and not political? Then there's no campaign tie in. Cohen actually paid it her himself, not with any campaign funds.
I've seen conflicting stories if Trump paid Cohen back or not, I saw some where it was included in his monthly billing fees for a while, I saw some where Cohen denies being paid back.  Either way, I don't understand how that is a violation on Trump.

So by smoking gun I mean what do we know now that makes that untrue?

I know Cohen spent time in jail. Was every charge he faced connected with Stormy and/or Trump? I thought he was facing a bunch of charges, some were connected and some were not, and he just took a plea for it all? If that's the case, that doesn't say much.

The issue isn't just the hush money. I believe the issue is that it was paid to her to benefit his campaign but he did not report it as a campaign expense. So, basically, he hid that from the public and that is illegal. They will try and argue that it was only personal and not campaign related.....but she was paid off right before the election and shortly after the Access Hollywood tapes had come out. I think the timing makes this pretty obvious. Given how close that election was, you can easily make the argument that he would never have become president had the public known about this. 

Cohn went to jail for a few reasons, chief among them were campaign finance charges stemming from this Stormy Daniels case. He admitted he paid her off at the direction of Donald Trump. How that doesn't say much doesn't make a whole lot of sense. He went to jail, in large part, because he followed illegal orders given to him by the former president. Why should only Cohen pay a price for that? 

But if "hush money" gets said enough times, that becomes the reality... he's only getting indicted over hush money, which is standard w/ NDAs. Not campaign finance laws, which are important, and exist for a reason. Now all of a sudden it's a bogus indictment because no one cares about hush money. 

This is how the narrative is controlled. 

The Juggler

2022

Merkin Baller said:

The Juggler said:

mace1229 said:

The Juggler said:

mace1229 said:

Merkin Baller said:

It's been ugly for several years now; the finger wagging that this is going to get [uglier] if the charges don't stick is tiring. The fact is, no one knows what's going to happen, this is uncharted territory for the nation. 

If deplorable people want to act more deplorable because law enforcement agencies are doing their job, that's on them.

It's been like 12 hours, how are you that tired of its going to get uglier already?
But you're right on a few things. It's been ugly a while, and no one knows what's going to happen. I still predict the reaction is going to be even worse if there isn't a smoking gun and something more than hush money. There's probably going to be protests this weekend either way, just how bad will depend on what they know and have.

Smoking gun? Mace, he's already indicted. His lawyer has already spent a year in jail. We are well past the point of smoking guns here. 

And, again, there are more indictments in his short term future. Buckle up. 

A few things I want to address.

I think those who said it wouldn't have gotten this far unless its a strong case are right.

I only made my first comment because I don't understand the response JB got when he said he hopes this sticks because if it doesn't, it will get ugly(ier). He's right. Those who breached the capitol because they thought the election was stolen, what will they do if they think he was wrongfully arrested? So why laugh at him for that comment? 

But I do have some questions. And I'm not asking because I think none of this sticks and is a witch hunt. I want to know.
What is the smoking gun that has been released to the public? Here's my understanding of what we know.
Hush money itself isn't illegal. How it is obtained can be. Trump and his attorneys had way more than enough money to pay off the $130,000 to Stormy. Doesn't Trump just have to argue he wanted Stormy quiet for personal reasons, he's married with kids, and not political? Then there's no campaign tie in. Cohen actually paid it her himself, not with any campaign funds.
I've seen conflicting stories if Trump paid Cohen back or not, I saw some where it was included in his monthly billing fees for a while, I saw some where Cohen denies being paid back.  Either way, I don't understand how that is a violation on Trump.

So by smoking gun I mean what do we know now that makes that untrue?

I know Cohen spent time in jail. Was every charge he faced connected with Stormy and/or Trump? I thought he was facing a bunch of charges, some were connected and some were not, and he just took a plea for it all? If that's the case, that doesn't say much.

The issue isn't just the hush money. I believe the issue is that it was paid to her to benefit his campaign but he did not report it as a campaign expense. So, basically, he hid that from the public and that is illegal. They will try and argue that it was only personal and not campaign related.....but she was paid off right before the election and shortly after the Access Hollywood tapes had come out. I think the timing makes this pretty obvious. Given how close that election was, you can easily make the argument that he would never have become president had the public known about this. 

Cohn went to jail for a few reasons, chief among them were campaign finance charges stemming from this Stormy Daniels case. He admitted he paid her off at the direction of Donald Trump. How that doesn't say much doesn't make a whole lot of sense. He went to jail, in large part, because he followed illegal orders given to him by the former president. Why should only Cohen pay a price for that? 

But if "hush money" gets said enough times, that becomes the reality... he's only getting indicted over hush money, which is standard w/ NDAs. Not campaign finance laws, which are important, and exist for a reason. Now all of a sudden it's a bogus indictment because no one cares about hush money. 

This is how the narrative is controlled. 

Well that would be....dare I say....disingenuous. I saw someone on Fox say Trump is being indicted over just sex. Those people just have no shame. 

The Juggler

2022

mace1229 said:

Merkin Baller said:

The indictment is about campaign finance laws, & not hush money, no?

I believe the argument is that the hush money violated campaign laws. The debate is since it likely helped his political campaign, it should have been considered campaign funds or something. In which case, it was not allowed or needed to be reported differently. 
My understanding is if Trump can claim he wanted his affair kept quiet for personal and not political reasons, then there was nothing wrong with how it was paid. 

Do you know when this all took place, mace? lol
We all need to exercise just a fraction of common sense here...especially since his own attorney already has served time over the same exact thing. 

mace1229

The Juggler said:

Merkin Baller said:

The Juggler said:

mace1229 said:

The Juggler said:

mace1229 said:

Merkin Baller said:

It's been ugly for several years now; the finger wagging that this is going to get [uglier] if the charges don't stick is tiring. The fact is, no one knows what's going to happen, this is uncharted territory for the nation. 

If deplorable people want to act more deplorable because law enforcement agencies are doing their job, that's on them.

It's been like 12 hours, how are you that tired of its going to get uglier already?
But you're right on a few things. It's been ugly a while, and no one knows what's going to happen. I still predict the reaction is going to be even worse if there isn't a smoking gun and something more than hush money. There's probably going to be protests this weekend either way, just how bad will depend on what they know and have.

Smoking gun? Mace, he's already indicted. His lawyer has already spent a year in jail. We are well past the point of smoking guns here. 

And, again, there are more indictments in his short term future. Buckle up. 

A few things I want to address.

I think those who said it wouldn't have gotten this far unless its a strong case are right.

I only made my first comment because I don't understand the response JB got when he said he hopes this sticks because if it doesn't, it will get ugly(ier). He's right. Those who breached the capitol because they thought the election was stolen, what will they do if they think he was wrongfully arrested? So why laugh at him for that comment? 

But I do have some questions. And I'm not asking because I think none of this sticks and is a witch hunt. I want to know.
What is the smoking gun that has been released to the public? Here's my understanding of what we know.
Hush money itself isn't illegal. How it is obtained can be. Trump and his attorneys had way more than enough money to pay off the $130,000 to Stormy. Doesn't Trump just have to argue he wanted Stormy quiet for personal reasons, he's married with kids, and not political? Then there's no campaign tie in. Cohen actually paid it her himself, not with any campaign funds.
I've seen conflicting stories if Trump paid Cohen back or not, I saw some where it was included in his monthly billing fees for a while, I saw some where Cohen denies being paid back.  Either way, I don't understand how that is a violation on Trump.

So by smoking gun I mean what do we know now that makes that untrue?

I know Cohen spent time in jail. Was every charge he faced connected with Stormy and/or Trump? I thought he was facing a bunch of charges, some were connected and some were not, and he just took a plea for it all? If that's the case, that doesn't say much.

The issue isn't just the hush money. I believe the issue is that it was paid to her to benefit his campaign but he did not report it as a campaign expense. So, basically, he hid that from the public and that is illegal. They will try and argue that it was only personal and not campaign related.....but she was paid off right before the election and shortly after the Access Hollywood tapes had come out. I think the timing makes this pretty obvious. Given how close that election was, you can easily make the argument that he would never have become president had the public known about this. 

Cohn went to jail for a few reasons, chief among them were campaign finance charges stemming from this Stormy Daniels case. He admitted he paid her off at the direction of Donald Trump. How that doesn't say much doesn't make a whole lot of sense. He went to jail, in large part, because he followed illegal orders given to him by the former president. Why should only Cohen pay a price for that? 

But if "hush money" gets said enough times, that becomes the reality... he's only getting indicted over hush money, which is standard w/ NDAs. Not campaign finance laws, which are important, and exist for a reason. Now all of a sudden it's a bogus indictment because no one cares about hush money. 

This is how the narrative is controlled. 

Well that would be....dare I say....disingenuous. I saw someone on Fox say Trump is being indicted over just sex. Those people just have no shame. 

Explains why I never got arrested in high school.

The Juggler

2022

mace1229 said:

The Juggler said:

Merkin Baller said:

The Juggler said:

mace1229 said:

The Juggler said:

mace1229 said:

Merkin Baller said:

It's been ugly for several years now; the finger wagging that this is going to get [uglier] if the charges don't stick is tiring. The fact is, no one knows what's going to happen, this is uncharted territory for the nation. 

If deplorable people want to act more deplorable because law enforcement agencies are doing their job, that's on them.

It's been like 12 hours, how are you that tired of its going to get uglier already?
But you're right on a few things. It's been ugly a while, and no one knows what's going to happen. I still predict the reaction is going to be even worse if there isn't a smoking gun and something more than hush money. There's probably going to be protests this weekend either way, just how bad will depend on what they know and have.

Smoking gun? Mace, he's already indicted. His lawyer has already spent a year in jail. We are well past the point of smoking guns here. 

And, again, there are more indictments in his short term future. Buckle up. 

A few things I want to address.

I think those who said it wouldn't have gotten this far unless its a strong case are right.

I only made my first comment because I don't understand the response JB got when he said he hopes this sticks because if it doesn't, it will get ugly(ier). He's right. Those who breached the capitol because they thought the election was stolen, what will they do if they think he was wrongfully arrested? So why laugh at him for that comment? 

But I do have some questions. And I'm not asking because I think none of this sticks and is a witch hunt. I want to know.
What is the smoking gun that has been released to the public? Here's my understanding of what we know.
Hush money itself isn't illegal. How it is obtained can be. Trump and his attorneys had way more than enough money to pay off the $130,000 to Stormy. Doesn't Trump just have to argue he wanted Stormy quiet for personal reasons, he's married with kids, and not political? Then there's no campaign tie in. Cohen actually paid it her himself, not with any campaign funds.
I've seen conflicting stories if Trump paid Cohen back or not, I saw some where it was included in his monthly billing fees for a while, I saw some where Cohen denies being paid back.  Either way, I don't understand how that is a violation on Trump.

So by smoking gun I mean what do we know now that makes that untrue?

I know Cohen spent time in jail. Was every charge he faced connected with Stormy and/or Trump? I thought he was facing a bunch of charges, some were connected and some were not, and he just took a plea for it all? If that's the case, that doesn't say much.

The issue isn't just the hush money. I believe the issue is that it was paid to her to benefit his campaign but he did not report it as a campaign expense. So, basically, he hid that from the public and that is illegal. They will try and argue that it was only personal and not campaign related.....but she was paid off right before the election and shortly after the Access Hollywood tapes had come out. I think the timing makes this pretty obvious. Given how close that election was, you can easily make the argument that he would never have become president had the public known about this. 

Cohn went to jail for a few reasons, chief among them were campaign finance charges stemming from this Stormy Daniels case. He admitted he paid her off at the direction of Donald Trump. How that doesn't say much doesn't make a whole lot of sense. He went to jail, in large part, because he followed illegal orders given to him by the former president. Why should only Cohen pay a price for that? 

But if "hush money" gets said enough times, that becomes the reality... he's only getting indicted over hush money, which is standard w/ NDAs. Not campaign finance laws, which are important, and exist for a reason. Now all of a sudden it's a bogus indictment because no one cares about hush money. 

This is how the narrative is controlled. 

Well that would be....dare I say....disingenuous. I saw someone on Fox say Trump is being indicted over just sex. Those people just have no shame. 

Explains why I never got arrested in high school.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zXDo4dL7SU

MayDay10

2022

The Juggler said:

OnWis97 said:

Whether the charges stick or not, I don't see this resonating very well with people who haven't been drooling for Trump to be held accountable. 

Unless Merrick Garland gets off of his worthless ass, anything Trump goes through in the courts will probably shift public opinion in his favor. People will see this simply as giving a bunch of money to someone he cheated with; not admirable, but not important, either.

There is already polling that shows almost 60% of people believe he did something wrong here. That is even before the charges are made public. 

Other side of the coin shows a lot of independents think this is politically motivated. 

But there is one simple thing that I think will resonate will people, once they think about it: Trump's own lawyer has already spent an entire year in jail for this....and he was following Trump's own orders...which were illegal. That is something very tangible for people to digest. 

You also have to remember.  While they are saying noisy things right now, most influential Republicans want Trump to GTFO.  At this time they are just competing to stay in favor of his mass of idiots.  Behind the scenes, they are probably pleased.  I'm sure Fox will slowly pivot the story to turn against Trump.

mace1229

The Juggler said:

mace1229 said:

The Juggler said:

mace1229 said:

Merkin Baller said:

It's been ugly for several years now; the finger wagging that this is going to get [uglier] if the charges don't stick is tiring. The fact is, no one knows what's going to happen, this is uncharted territory for the nation. 

If deplorable people want to act more deplorable because law enforcement agencies are doing their job, that's on them.

It's been like 12 hours, how are you that tired of its going to get uglier already?
But you're right on a few things. It's been ugly a while, and no one knows what's going to happen. I still predict the reaction is going to be even worse if there isn't a smoking gun and something more than hush money. There's probably going to be protests this weekend either way, just how bad will depend on what they know and have.

Smoking gun? Mace, he's already indicted. His lawyer has already spent a year in jail. We are well past the point of smoking guns here. 

And, again, there are more indictments in his short term future. Buckle up. 

A few things I want to address.

I think those who said it wouldn't have gotten this far unless its a strong case are right.

I only made my first comment because I don't understand the response JB got when he said he hopes this sticks because if it doesn't, it will get ugly(ier). He's right. Those who breached the capitol because they thought the election was stolen, what will they do if they think he was wrongfully arrested? So why laugh at him for that comment? 

But I do have some questions. And I'm not asking because I think none of this sticks and is a witch hunt. I want to know.
What is the smoking gun that has been released to the public? Here's my understanding of what we know.
Hush money itself isn't illegal. How it is obtained can be. Trump and his attorneys had way more than enough money to pay off the $130,000 to Stormy. Doesn't Trump just have to argue he wanted Stormy quiet for personal reasons, he's married with kids, and not political? Then there's no campaign tie in. Cohen actually paid it her himself, not with any campaign funds.
I've seen conflicting stories if Trump paid Cohen back or not, I saw some where it was included in his monthly billing fees for a while, I saw some where Cohen denies being paid back.  Either way, I don't understand how that is a violation on Trump.

So by smoking gun I mean what do we know now that makes that untrue?

I know Cohen spent time in jail. Was every charge he faced connected with Stormy and/or Trump? I thought he was facing a bunch of charges, some were connected and some were not, and he just took a plea for it all? If that's the case, that doesn't say much.

The issue isn't just the hush money. I believe the issue is that it was paid to her to benefit his campaign but he did not report it as a campaign expense. So, basically, he hid that from the public and that is illegal. They will try and argue that it was only personal and not campaign related.....but she was paid off right before the election and shortly after the Access Hollywood tapes had come out. I think the timing makes this pretty obvious. Given how close that election was, you can easily make the argument that he would never have become president had the public known about this. 

Cohn went to jail for a few reasons, chief among them were campaign finance charges stemming from this Stormy Daniels case. He admitted he paid her off at the direction of Donald Trump. How that doesn't say much doesn't make a whole lot of sense. He went to jail, in large part, because he followed illegal orders given to him by the former president. Why should only Cohen pay a price for that? 

I agree with most of your first paragraph. Except the timing was because Stormy had just been trying to push her story. Its not like she's been trying to sell it for 10 years then Trump finale decides to pay her off right before the election, but rather that's when she saw her opportunity to make money off it. 
You and I both know it helped his campaign and probably the main reason he agreed to. But how do you prove that? He's certainly not the first man who's tried to hide an affair. Thus, one of the reasons I asked what's the new smoking gun? What do they know now that we don't?

I just googled it. Cohen was facing far more jail time for tax evasion and bank fraud. He hid $6 million in income from his taxes. Facing something like a max of 60 years for his financial fraud. So, doesn't seem like a big deal to me that he plead guilty to campaign fund fraud too and only had to serve 1 year for all of it. He was probably happy to plead guilty to everything for the sentence he got. 

mace1229

The Juggler said:

mace1229 said:

Merkin Baller said:

The indictment is about campaign finance laws, & not hush money, no?

I believe the argument is that the hush money violated campaign laws. The debate is since it likely helped his political campaign, it should have been considered campaign funds or something. In which case, it was not allowed or needed to be reported differently. 
My understanding is if Trump can claim he wanted his affair kept quiet for personal and not political reasons, then there was nothing wrong with how it was paid. 

Do you know when this all took place, mace? lol
We all need to exercise just a fraction of common sense here...especially since his own attorney already has served time over the same exact thing. 

Yes, but that's when she decided to push her story. Like my post just above. I know you're right. But how do you prove it?