Why are we encouraging mail-in voting...

pjhawks

when we know this administration is going to do everything in its power to suppress and invalidate it?  I get 100% the concern with COVID-19. Heck I myself have been to about 5 places in 6 months just for essentials so I get being cautious.  That being said in such an important election I would think the best way to make sure your vote is counted correctly will be in-person in a polling place.  I'd rather not take the chance in such an important election that my vote won't be counted.  Full disclosure here I live in suburban Philadelphia and other than absentee balloting we've never had mail-in voting before this year.  We've also always had plenty of polling places so wait times have never been anything crazy. I think the longest I ever waited for in-person voting was the first Obama election and that was maybe a half hour.  So am I wrong here?  Am I being insensitive towards people regarding their fears of COVID? Am I missing something?  I'd love to hear people's thoughts on this.

brianlux

I think it depends of where you live.  I have voted by mail for about 5 or 6 years and have felt confident doing so.  If I lived in a state that did not have as much experience with mail in voting, this time around I would put on a mask, keep my distance, go with a mini-sized hand sanitizer, and vote in the booth.

OnWis97

I’m not.  Early and in person for me.

static111

Agreed.  Early in person voting.   Those mail in ballots are going to be contested and thrown out by the soon to be packed Trump SC

PJPOWER

Early in person for me too.  There is a polling place where I work, so it’s easy to hop over on a break.

jerparker20

I’m voting in person on Tuesday.

pjhawks

Bump. I asked this question last weekend. Now today Trump said he will throw out ballots.
so again vote in person if you can humanely and safely can

HughFreakingDillon

pjhawks said:

Bump. I asked this question last weekend. Now today Trump said he will throw out ballots.
so again vote in person if you can humanely and safely can

he doesn't have the power to do that. the federal government can't do shit about how states handle their elections. he's trying to scare people into not voting by mail, thus many not voting at all, to suppress more voters. 

i can't claim to know what recourse he may have, or what barr can do, maybe halifax or juggler do, but scotus won't even hear a case unless there's something to it. and there isn't. 

pjhawks

HughFreakingDillon said:

I pjhawks said:

Bump. I asked this question last weekend. Now today Trump said he will throw out ballots.
so again vote in person if you can humanely and safely can

he doesn't have the power to do that. the federal government can't do shit about how states handle their elections. he's trying to scare people into not voting by mail, thus many not voting at all, to suppress more voters. 

i can't claim to know what recourse he may have, or what barr can do, maybe halifax or juggler do, but scotus won't even hear a case unless there's something to it. and there isn't. 

Two words: hanging chad.  I wouldn’t put it past republican led states to fuck with the results.  Again best way to ensure your vote counts is to do it in person

bootleg

pjhawks said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I pjhawks said:

Bump. I asked this question last weekend. Now today Trump said he will throw out ballots.
so again vote in person if you can humanely and safely can

he doesn't have the power to do that. the federal government can't do shit about how states handle their elections. he's trying to scare people into not voting by mail, thus many not voting at all, to suppress more voters. 

i can't claim to know what recourse he may have, or what barr can do, maybe halifax or juggler do, but scotus won't even hear a case unless there's something to it. and there isn't. 

Two words: hanging chad.  I wouldn’t put it past republican led states to fuck with the results.  Again best way to ensure your vote counts is to do it in person

^This.  I’ve been having this thought a lot lately to the point where I feel like I somehow need to get the message out to dem leadership to change their strategy on mail in voting.  They have already stated what they are going to try to do so why play right into their hand?  They will try to declare victory on election night and then start contesting ballots from there.  In 2000 it was hanging chads.  This year will be signatures don’t match, or form not filled out completely.  I say get everyone who is able to actually go to the polls in person and be prepared for what it may take to vote in person.  I live in a fairly rural area and never had a problem voting in person until a few elections ago.  They consolidated polling places and it took me 2 hours to vote.  Ever since I voted early and am in and out in 10 minutes.  But I’m prepared to wait in line all day if I have to and I think we should be preparing people for that possibility.  I’ve waited 4 years to vote this MF out, I’ll wait in line 10 hours if I have to.  I’ll bring a camping chair, lunch, snacks, take the day off etc...  I too am nervous about Covid.  I have gone almost nowhere since March but I’m also not as nervous as I was in May and June, because we know a little more about it now and that masks and social distancing do have a large effect.  So wear your mask gloves etc.  bring your sanitizer and prepare for a long day if that’s what it takes.  This is way too important, and I say hit them where they least expect it.  At the polls, in person.  Let that be our October surprise.

bootleg

From an article in The Atlantic https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/what-if-trump-refuses-concede/616424/.  

Mail-in ballots will have plenty of flaws for the Trump lawyers to seize upon. Voting by mail is more complicated than voting in person, and technical errors are common­place at each step. If voters supply a new address, or if they write a different version of their name (for example, by shortening Benjamin to Ben), or if their signature has changed over the years, or if they print their name on the signature line, or if they fail to seal the ballot inside an inner security envelope, their votes may not count. With in-person voting, a poll worker in the precinct can resolve small errors like these, for instance by directing a voter to the correct signature line, but people voting by mail may have no opportunity to address them.

During the primaries this spring, Republican lawyers did dry runs for the November vote at county election offices around the country. An internal memo prepared by an attorney named J. Matthew Wolfe for the Pennsylvania Republican Party in June reported on one such exercise. Wolfe, along with another Republican lawyer and a member of the Trump campaign, watched closely but did not intervene as election commissioners in Philadelphia canvassed mail-in and provisional votes. Wolfe cataloged imperfections, taking note of objections that his party could have raised.

There were missing signatures and partial signatures and signatures placed in the wrong spot. There were names on the inner security envelopes, which are supposed to be unmarked, and ballots without security envelopes at all. Some envelopes arrived “without a postmark or with an illegible postmark,” Wolfe wrote. (Watch for postmarks to become the hanging chads of 2020.) Some voters wrote their birthdate where a signature date belonged, and others put down “an impossible date, like a date after the primary election.”

brianlux

bootleg said:

From an article in The Atlantic https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/what-if-trump-refuses-concede/616424/.  

Mail-in ballots will have plenty of flaws for the Trump lawyers to seize upon. Voting by mail is more complicated than voting in person, and technical errors are common­place at each step. If voters supply a new address, or if they write a different version of their name (for example, by shortening Benjamin to Ben), or if their signature has changed over the years, or if they print their name on the signature line, or if they fail to seal the ballot inside an inner security envelope, their votes may not count. With in-person voting, a poll worker in the precinct can resolve small errors like these, for instance by directing a voter to the correct signature line, but people voting by mail may have no opportunity to address them.

During the primaries this spring, Republican lawyers did dry runs for the November vote at county election offices around the country. An internal memo prepared by an attorney named J. Matthew Wolfe for the Pennsylvania Republican Party in June reported on one such exercise. Wolfe, along with another Republican lawyer and a member of the Trump campaign, watched closely but did not intervene as election commissioners in Philadelphia canvassed mail-in and provisional votes. Wolfe cataloged imperfections, taking note of objections that his party could have raised.

There were missing signatures and partial signatures and signatures placed in the wrong spot. There were names on the inner security envelopes, which are supposed to be unmarked, and ballots without security envelopes at all. Some envelopes arrived “without a postmark or with an illegible postmark,” Wolfe wrote. (Watch for postmarks to become the hanging chads of 2020.) Some voters wrote their birthdate where a signature date belonged, and others put down “an impossible date, like a date after the primary election.”

Might it be that the ballots that were rejected due to voter error could possibly be a good thing if it means eliminating votes cast by people unable or unwilling to follow simple directions? 

static111

brianlux said:

bootleg said:

From an article in The Atlantic https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/what-if-trump-refuses-concede/616424/.  

Mail-in ballots will have plenty of flaws for the Trump lawyers to seize upon. Voting by mail is more complicated than voting in person, and technical errors are common­place at each step. If voters supply a new address, or if they write a different version of their name (for example, by shortening Benjamin to Ben), or if their signature has changed over the years, or if they print their name on the signature line, or if they fail to seal the ballot inside an inner security envelope, their votes may not count. With in-person voting, a poll worker in the precinct can resolve small errors like these, for instance by directing a voter to the correct signature line, but people voting by mail may have no opportunity to address them.

During the primaries this spring, Republican lawyers did dry runs for the November vote at county election offices around the country. An internal memo prepared by an attorney named J. Matthew Wolfe for the Pennsylvania Republican Party in June reported on one such exercise. Wolfe, along with another Republican lawyer and a member of the Trump campaign, watched closely but did not intervene as election commissioners in Philadelphia canvassed mail-in and provisional votes. Wolfe cataloged imperfections, taking note of objections that his party could have raised.

There were missing signatures and partial signatures and signatures placed in the wrong spot. There were names on the inner security envelopes, which are supposed to be unmarked, and ballots without security envelopes at all. Some envelopes arrived “without a postmark or with an illegible postmark,” Wolfe wrote. (Watch for postmarks to become the hanging chads of 2020.) Some voters wrote their birthdate where a signature date belonged, and others put down “an impossible date, like a date after the primary election.”

Might it be that the ballots that were rejected due to voter error could possibly be a good thing if it means eliminating votes cast by people unable or unwilling to follow simple directions? 

The problem is most of the mail in voting is likely to be done by Dems and anti-Trump voters.   I don’t think Losing any of those votes should be considered  a good thing just because some people might not follow the instructions carefully.

bootleg

brianlux said:

bootleg said:

From an article in The Atlantic https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/what-if-trump-refuses-concede/616424/.  

Mail-in ballots will have plenty of flaws for the Trump lawyers to seize upon. Voting by mail is more complicated than voting in person, and technical errors are common­place at each step. If voters supply a new address, or if they write a different version of their name (for example, by shortening Benjamin to Ben), or if their signature has changed over the years, or if they print their name on the signature line, or if they fail to seal the ballot inside an inner security envelope, their votes may not count. With in-person voting, a poll worker in the precinct can resolve small errors like these, for instance by directing a voter to the correct signature line, but people voting by mail may have no opportunity to address them.

During the primaries this spring, Republican lawyers did dry runs for the November vote at county election offices around the country. An internal memo prepared by an attorney named J. Matthew Wolfe for the Pennsylvania Republican Party in June reported on one such exercise. Wolfe, along with another Republican lawyer and a member of the Trump campaign, watched closely but did not intervene as election commissioners in Philadelphia canvassed mail-in and provisional votes. Wolfe cataloged imperfections, taking note of objections that his party could have raised.

There were missing signatures and partial signatures and signatures placed in the wrong spot. There were names on the inner security envelopes, which are supposed to be unmarked, and ballots without security envelopes at all. Some envelopes arrived “without a postmark or with an illegible postmark,” Wolfe wrote. (Watch for postmarks to become the hanging chads of 2020.) Some voters wrote their birthdate where a signature date belonged, and others put down “an impossible date, like a date after the primary election.”

Might it be that the ballots that were rejected due to voter error could possibly be a good thing if it means eliminating votes cast by people unable or unwilling to follow simple directions? 

No because I think dems are requesting mail in ballots at something like a 5-1 rate.  I don’t think dems are prepared for how ugly things are going to get.

mace1229

I understand the argument of voting in person, because there will be ballots in question. I don't know why states are extending the deadline, some as many as 14 days I think. Ballots showing up November 17 but postmarked November 3 are definitely going to raise questions.  If anyone is going to mail in a ballot they should do it early and it should be counted immediately, not days or weeks later. 

OnWis97

The Dem message (and the message of anyone who wants all votes counted...so anyone who's not a fan of Trump) should be "Mail in your votes by October 15.* If not, please deliver it in person or vote in person."

*Or whatever that appropriate date should be.

Halifax2TheMax

Voting in person. Not trusting the USPS at all even though I love the USPS.

brianlux

static111 said:

brianlux said:

bootleg said:

From an article in The Atlantic https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/what-if-trump-refuses-concede/616424/.  

Mail-in ballots will have plenty of flaws for the Trump lawyers to seize upon. Voting by mail is more complicated than voting in person, and technical errors are common­place at each step. If voters supply a new address, or if they write a different version of their name (for example, by shortening Benjamin to Ben), or if their signature has changed over the years, or if they print their name on the signature line, or if they fail to seal the ballot inside an inner security envelope, their votes may not count. With in-person voting, a poll worker in the precinct can resolve small errors like these, for instance by directing a voter to the correct signature line, but people voting by mail may have no opportunity to address them.

During the primaries this spring, Republican lawyers did dry runs for the November vote at county election offices around the country. An internal memo prepared by an attorney named J. Matthew Wolfe for the Pennsylvania Republican Party in June reported on one such exercise. Wolfe, along with another Republican lawyer and a member of the Trump campaign, watched closely but did not intervene as election commissioners in Philadelphia canvassed mail-in and provisional votes. Wolfe cataloged imperfections, taking note of objections that his party could have raised.

There were missing signatures and partial signatures and signatures placed in the wrong spot. There were names on the inner security envelopes, which are supposed to be unmarked, and ballots without security envelopes at all. Some envelopes arrived “without a postmark or with an illegible postmark,” Wolfe wrote. (Watch for postmarks to become the hanging chads of 2020.) Some voters wrote their birthdate where a signature date belonged, and others put down “an impossible date, like a date after the primary election.”

Might it be that the ballots that were rejected due to voter error could possibly be a good thing if it means eliminating votes cast by people unable or unwilling to follow simple directions? 

The problem is most of the mail in voting is likely to be done by Dems and anti-Trump voters.   I don’t think Losing any of those votes should be considered  a good thing just because some people might not follow the instructions carefully.

bootleg said:

brianlux said:

bootleg said:

From an article in The Atlantic https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/what-if-trump-refuses-concede/616424/.  

Mail-in ballots will have plenty of flaws for the Trump lawyers to seize upon. Voting by mail is more complicated than voting in person, and technical errors are common­place at each step. If voters supply a new address, or if they write a different version of their name (for example, by shortening Benjamin to Ben), or if their signature has changed over the years, or if they print their name on the signature line, or if they fail to seal the ballot inside an inner security envelope, their votes may not count. With in-person voting, a poll worker in the precinct can resolve small errors like these, for instance by directing a voter to the correct signature line, but people voting by mail may have no opportunity to address them.

During the primaries this spring, Republican lawyers did dry runs for the November vote at county election offices around the country. An internal memo prepared by an attorney named J. Matthew Wolfe for the Pennsylvania Republican Party in June reported on one such exercise. Wolfe, along with another Republican lawyer and a member of the Trump campaign, watched closely but did not intervene as election commissioners in Philadelphia canvassed mail-in and provisional votes. Wolfe cataloged imperfections, taking note of objections that his party could have raised.

There were missing signatures and partial signatures and signatures placed in the wrong spot. There were names on the inner security envelopes, which are supposed to be unmarked, and ballots without security envelopes at all. Some envelopes arrived “without a postmark or with an illegible postmark,” Wolfe wrote. (Watch for postmarks to become the hanging chads of 2020.) Some voters wrote their birthdate where a signature date belonged, and others put down “an impossible date, like a date after the primary election.”

Might it be that the ballots that were rejected due to voter error could possibly be a good thing if it means eliminating votes cast by people unable or unwilling to follow simple directions? 

No because I think dems are requesting mail in ballots at something like a 5-1 rate.  I don’t think dems are prepared for how ugly things are going to get.

My point is that people who don't care enough about the importance of the voting process to follow simple instructions are probably not making their voting decisions based on clear, informed, or reasonable thinking.  Any Democrat or anti-Trump voter who cares at all about this election will not make stupid mistakes like writing their birth date where it says "sign here." 

In any case, I'm certainly not against mail in voting.  I've voted for years in my district and have never read or heard of any problems.  This year, I will drop off my ballot at the ballot drop off center in the county offices to make sure it gets there in time.

jwhjr17

Mailed mine in on Tuesday, and already got confirmation that it has been received and will be counted.  

Meltdown99

I don't have faith in the postal service in Ccanada...but if there is an election while COVID 19 is here,  I am voting by mail.  No way I am showing up at a polling station to vote...

jeffbr

We only vote by mail in my state. But there are also multiple ballot drop boxes located conveniently in most cities. I always drop my ballot into one of those boxes where they are collected each day and processed. I'll be voting as soon as my ballot arrives, and will put it in a drop box. We also can track our ballots, so we can know that it was received and counted, or that it was set aside for some reason, which we can then deal with (signature, security envelope, etc...). So voting early here allows time to correct any issues that might arise (although I've never had an issue in all of my years of voting). 

bootleg

OnWis97 said:

The Dem message (and the message of anyone who wants all votes counted...so anyone who's not a fan of Trump) should be "Mail in your votes by October 15.* If not, please deliver it in person or vote in person."

*Or whatever that appropriate date should be.

I like this idea.  Set a date that gives everyone time.  Still worry about the timing of the counting the mail in votes.  Do they start counting early?  Or do they sit in a pile and only get counted if the outcome is close?  I just don’t trust the GOP, as they have already proven every time they don’t want a fair election.

cutz

This guy encourages Mail-In-Voting

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1309171857774477314

tempo_n_groove

cutz said:

This guy encourages Mail-In-Voting

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1309171857774477314

This idiot says he won't trust the election if he loses.  I am registered a republican and I get texts from the whole Truymp family encouraging me to mail in my vote.  WTF is it Donald?

Vote Biden everyone!

Lerxst1992

mace1229 said:

I understand the argument of voting in person, because there will be ballots in question. I don't know why states are extending the deadline, some as many as 14 days I think. Ballots showing up November 17 but postmarked November 3 are definitely going to raise questions.  If anyone is going to mail in a ballot they should do it early and it should be counted immediately, not days or weeks later. 

trump recently cut post office resources for the sole purpose to get the mail behind schedule. That’s why some states are legally extending the deadlines.

Lerxst1992

bootleg said:

OnWis97 said:

The Dem message (and the message of anyone who wants all votes counted...so anyone who's not a fan of Trump) should be "Mail in your votes by October 15.* If not, please deliver it in person or vote in person."

*Or whatever that appropriate date should be.

I like this idea.  Set a date that gives everyone time.  Still worry about the timing of the counting the mail in votes.  Do they start counting early?  Or do they sit in a pile and only get counted if the outcome is close?  I just don’t trust the GOP, as they have already proven every time they don’t want a fair election.

Some states count early, some are legally required to wait until Election Day to begin counting.

In response to the OP, I agree anyone that wants trump out needs to vote in person. Covid is no excuse, unless someone has a severe preexisting condition. Every single mail in vote has to be considered to potentially be worth zero votes based on how trump manipulated the post office budget and his plan for many lawsuits to have mail in ballots thrown out.

mace1229

Lerxst1992 said:

mace1229 said:

I understand the argument of voting in person, because there will be ballots in question. I don't know why states are extending the deadline, some as many as 14 days I think. Ballots showing up November 17 but postmarked November 3 are definitely going to raise questions.  If anyone is going to mail in a ballot they should do it early and it should be counted immediately, not days or weeks later. 

trump recently cut post office resources for the sole purpose to get the mail behind schedule. That’s why some states are legally extending the deadlines.

The post office doesn't count ballots, right? Its not going to take 14 days to mail an envelope within state, 2 or 3 days tops. 

whoyouare72

Oh shit he's gonna use this big time...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mcall.com/news/elections/mc-nws-pa-military-ballots-trump-investigation-20200924-64deogjxn5dhhpwdv7osltqrmy-story.html?outputType=amp

Lerxst1992

mace1229 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

mace1229 said:

I understand the argument of voting in person, because there will be ballots in question. I don't know why states are extending the deadline, some as many as 14 days I think. Ballots showing up November 17 but postmarked November 3 are definitely going to raise questions.  If anyone is going to mail in a ballot they should do it early and it should be counted immediately, not days or weeks later. 

trump recently cut post office resources for the sole purpose to get the mail behind schedule. That’s why some states are legally extending the deadlines.

The post office doesn't count ballots, right? Its not going to take 14 days to mail an envelope within state, 2 or 3 days tops. 

Many states have laws that ballots must be received by Election Day. Are you saying the post office does not have the ability to delay about 70,000 ballots? Are you saying hundreds of thousands of Americans will not wait until the last week to mail their ballots? Yes millions will mail them in early, but millions will wait until the last week. With the cuts to the USPS, this will be an issue.

Dirtie_Frank

Today my in-laws told my wife that she received her mail in ballot in NJ.  The problem is my wife hasn't voted in NJ since 2004, that moved first to VA with me in 2005 and then to MD in 2006 and has been registered to vote in MD since 2007.  Can you see where there are some problems with just mailing out ballots?

tbergs

tempo_n_groove said:

cutz said:

This guy encourages Mail-In-Voting

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1309171857774477314

This idiot says he won't trust the election if he loses.  I am registered a republican and I get texts from the whole Truymp family encouraging me to mail in my vote.  WTF is it Donald?

Vote Biden everyone!

Trump's stance: if I'm losing, mail in ballots matter; if I'm winning, mail in ballots are rigged. He plays both sides and everyone let's the fuck wad work them up whatever he says. He doesn't care. He just loves the headline.