George Floyd Protests

brianlux

bootlegger10 said:

A couple days of peaceful protests wouldn’t change anything.  The history of the planet is full of the people taking up arms against their government because talking only goes so far.  Sucks.

Being in or witnessing in person violent protests is pretty awful.   But you are right, change has often come through violent action.  And that is very sad, very unfortunate.

But history has also shown that people can make changes through peaceful protest.  Some examples:

-The 1913 Suffrage Parade did much to further Women's rights issues.

-Gandhi's salt march in 1930 that helped India gain its freedom from Britain.

-1955 to 1956 Montgomery bus boycott stemmed from Rosa Parks refusal to sit in the back of the bus.  Segregation became unconstitutional. 

-The late 1960's Delano Grape Boycott and Strike served to protect farm workers.

-The war in Vietnam, though far, far too long, was ended in part by widespread protest.  Many of these protests were violence, but I saw some of that happen and most protesters were non-violent.  Most of the violence came from law enforcement.  And many protests did not end in violence.

-Christopher Street Liberation Day, June 28, 1969.  True, this was an outright riot, but it was the seed that led to other more peaceful protests that led to peaceful pride marches and the opened the door to the gains we've made in LGBT rights today.

These and other peaceful protests/boycotts/strikes led to change.  I would encourage anyone to not write off peaceful protest.   To my way off thinking, it's a much better option than being in or even watching a blood bath.   

Spiritual_Chaos

bootlegger10 said:

A couple days of peaceful protests wouldn’t change anything.  The history of the planet is full of the people taking up arms against their government because talking only goes so far.  Sucks.

I think this is a pretty dangerous narrative to push as an inevitability. 






And I can't really wrap my head around the defense (in general, not you Bootlegger specifically) of looting and the destruction of property etc. All I see is backed-to-the-wall clutching-at-straws fabricated arguments to not give a centimetre to "the other side" (of note though, I haven't digged so deep into this - just my observation from what I have taken in).

Halifax2TheMax

Like Bernie? Or Tara? Or the Swedish Voodoo Doctor (sorry forgot his Mario cart KISS name explanation of confidence.) sorry not sorry. Time will tell so walks in the forest are ordered.

Fifthelement

jerparker20 said:

JG49071 said:

It would be nice if Pearl Jam joined the rest of the entertainment world and the majority of the people in the world and turn their social media accounts (Facebook/Twitter, etc) Black for today.
But hey, they still have advertising on their Facebook from March for the new album. 

Turning your social media black doesn’t do shit. It’s a pretty weak way to make a statement. A better statement would be to completely delete and deactivate Facebook and Instagram accounts. 

I’m a resident of the Twin Cities. I live 4 blocks from the site of Philando Castillo’s murder, and very close to the area of St Paul that went up in flames last Thursday. I use to work out of one of the buildings in South Minneapolis that was partially destroyed. My kid’s daycare center was vandalized.  And the police murdered another person from my community, again.

If if you want to make a difference, bug the hell out of your elected officials to make real changes to policing, education and economic policies. Vote for non-shitbag politicians. Support minority owned businesses, especially those in our neighborhoods.  Also if your a white person know when to shut your mouth and listen to our communities of color,  especially when it’s uncomfortable. Blacking out your social media accounts for one day is just lazy.

when things calm down, maybe I’ll share my thoughts/experiences of the past week. 

Great post @jerparker20, especially the part I highlighted in bold. Sending much love to you and your family.

 I sincerely hope that real change in policing (de-militarisation), the justice system and the million other micro and macro threads of systemic racism that prop up western societal structures comes sooner rather than later.  As you say, the way that happens is through voting and contacting elected representatives. 

brianlux

Like many of you, I have been following all of this closely this last week. One of the things that is talked about a lot is the looting, burning and destruction of property.  Much of that talk focuses on two of three groups of people who engage in this activity:  angry and/or radical protesters and infiltrator "protesters"-  mostly fake Antifa infiltrators, white supremacists acting as protesters. 

The third kind isn't mentioned as often:  Opportunists using the distraction and/or confusion of protests to break into stores and steel.  They are people who have little or no interest in social justice issues but instead seek to exploit the situation for the sole purpose of stealing.  I would include in that group thrill seekers who enjoy breaking shit but who also have little or no interest in social justice issues.

I don't know what percentage of the people destroying and steeling are opportunists and thrill seekers, but I do find it interesting that there is not much focus on them in conversation on theft and damage as compared to the other groups. 

Why do you suppose that is?

mace1229

Anyone heard of the Singing a Revolution? I spent some time in Estonia about 10 years ago and learned a lot about their history. It’s an amazing story, here’s a clip about a documentary for it. They didn’t have weapons, they fought their revolution from the Soviet Union by singing together.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4njksFKyycY&app=desktop

Every day I am seeing more and more people condone this violence, saying it’s the only way to get change. That we didn’t win the civil war through peace.

We have already made big changes. Yes, bigger changes are needed. But I don’t remember MLK beating a woman unconscious with a 2x4 so he could loot her store in order to make his point.

Innocent people are already dying. Police have already been ambushed and killed. Innocent people have lost their only way to provide for a family. I saw police with orders to step down and allow the looting for days. Now I see the enforcement being ramped up with use of tear gas on the media and anyone out passed curfew. Some were calling this a war. It’s really starting to look like one. The thing is, in a war the other side fights back with violence too. That’s not what I want.

gimmesometruth27

Meltdown99 said:

Jonathan Toews 

https://www.hockeyfeed.com/nhl-news/jonathan-toews-stuns-the-hockey-world-with-a-stirring-call-to-arms?ref=trevor&fbclid=IwAR1GCMtohVgcZSDPyvZkMUnbXWRf5cXMQB0ELrsQk9YiL00sUQOckfUg6_8


A lot of people may claim these riots and acts of destruction are a terrible response. I’ll be the first to admit that as a white male that was also my first reaction.
But who am I to tell someone that their pain is not real? Especially when it is at a boiling point and impossible to hold in anymore. It’s obviously coming from a place of truth. This reaction isn’t coming out of thin air.
I’m not condoning or approving the looting, but are we really going to sit here and say that peaceful protesting is the only answer? There has been plenty of time for that, and if it was the answer we would’ve given it our full attention long ago.
Listen to these two men debate. They are lost, they are in pain. They strived for a better future but as they get older they realize their efforts may be futile. They don’t know the answer of how to solve this problem for the next generation of black women and men. This breaks my heart.
I can’t pretend for a second that I know what it feels like to walk in a black man’s shoes. However, seeing the video of George Floyd’s death and the violent reaction across the country moved me to tears. It has pushed me to think, how much pain are black people and other minorities really feeling? What have Native American people dealt with in both Canada and US? What is it really like to grow up in their world? Where am I ignorant about the privileges that I may have that others don’t?
Compassion to me is at least trying to FEEL and UNDERSTAND what someone else is going through. For just a moment maybe I can try to see the world through their eyes. Covid has been rough but it has given us the opportunity to be much less preoccupied with our busy lives. We can no longer distract ourselves from the truth of what is going on.
My message isn’t for black people and what they should do going forward. My message is to white people to open our eyes and our hearts. That’s the only choice we have, otherwise this will continue.
Let’s choose to fight hate and fear with love and awareness. Ask not what can you do for me, but what can I do for you?Be the one to make the first move. In the end, love conquers all.

i saw this. as a lifelong blues fan i was always conditioned to hate toews. i respected his hockey ability but never liked him. this statement has changed my opinion of him for the better. i am glad he stepped up and said something. it takes courage for people in his position to step into something like this with such conviction. i saw that people in the twitterverse are all over sidney crosby for not saying anything at all. with statements like this from people like toews, i do not think crosby needs to even be mentioned in the conversation.

gimmesometruth27

brianlux said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

What happened to Krist...



https://consequenceofsound.net/2020/06/krist-novoselic-donald-trump-speech/

"Trump knocked it out of the park with his speech..."

...and I knocked Krist off my FB feed.  No big loss there.

thanks brian, i needed this laugh!!

i think krist was a bigtime libertarian at one point. i am pretty concerned that he feels that trump knocked it out of the park with that speech. it was a speech that a strongman dictator would have been proud of. i expected better of krist for some reason. probably because he was one of my heroes growing up. i guess people change, or at least show you who they really are eventually.

dignin

gimmesometruth27 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Jonathan Toews 

https://www.hockeyfeed.com/nhl-news/jonathan-toews-stuns-the-hockey-world-with-a-stirring-call-to-arms?ref=trevor&fbclid=IwAR1GCMtohVgcZSDPyvZkMUnbXWRf5cXMQB0ELrsQk9YiL00sUQOckfUg6_8


A lot of people may claim these riots and acts of destruction are a terrible response. I’ll be the first to admit that as a white male that was also my first reaction.
But who am I to tell someone that their pain is not real? Especially when it is at a boiling point and impossible to hold in anymore. It’s obviously coming from a place of truth. This reaction isn’t coming out of thin air.
I’m not condoning or approving the looting, but are we really going to sit here and say that peaceful protesting is the only answer? There has been plenty of time for that, and if it was the answer we would’ve given it our full attention long ago.
Listen to these two men debate. They are lost, they are in pain. They strived for a better future but as they get older they realize their efforts may be futile. They don’t know the answer of how to solve this problem for the next generation of black women and men. This breaks my heart.
I can’t pretend for a second that I know what it feels like to walk in a black man’s shoes. However, seeing the video of George Floyd’s death and the violent reaction across the country moved me to tears. It has pushed me to think, how much pain are black people and other minorities really feeling? What have Native American people dealt with in both Canada and US? What is it really like to grow up in their world? Where am I ignorant about the privileges that I may have that others don’t?
Compassion to me is at least trying to FEEL and UNDERSTAND what someone else is going through. For just a moment maybe I can try to see the world through their eyes. Covid has been rough but it has given us the opportunity to be much less preoccupied with our busy lives. We can no longer distract ourselves from the truth of what is going on.
My message isn’t for black people and what they should do going forward. My message is to white people to open our eyes and our hearts. That’s the only choice we have, otherwise this will continue.
Let’s choose to fight hate and fear with love and awareness. Ask not what can you do for me, but what can I do for you?Be the one to make the first move. In the end, love conquers all.

i saw this. as a lifelong blues fan i was always conditioned to hate toews. i respected his hockey ability but never liked him. this statement has changed my opinion of him for the better. i am glad he stepped up and said something. it takes courage for people in his position to step into something like this with such conviction. i saw that people in the twitterverse are all over sidney crosby for not saying anything at all. with statements like this from people like toews, i do not think crosby needs to even be mentioned in the conversation.

Fucking Crosby. Never forgive him for going to the Whitehouse.

hedonist

brianlux said:

Like many of you, I have been following all of this closely this last week. One of the things that is talked about a lot is the looting, burning and destruction of property.  Much of that talk focuses on two of three groups of people who engage in this activity:  angry and/or radical protesters and infiltrator "protesters"-  mostly fake Antifa infiltrators, white supremacists acting as protesters. 

The third kind isn't mentioned as often:  Opportunists using the distraction and/or confusion of protests to break into stores and steel.  They are people who have little or no interest in social justice issues but instead seek to exploit the situation for the sole purpose of stealing.  I would include in that group thrill seekers who enjoy breaking shit but who also have little or no interest in social justice issues.

I don't know what percentage of the people destroying and steeling are opportunists and thrill seekers, but I do find it interesting that there is not much focus on them in conversation on theft and damage as compared to the other groups. 

Why do you suppose that is?

I‘ve mentioned it here several times as it was happening in my city. I think others have as well. 

Crickets, mostly. 

Ah well!

Lerxst1992

bootlegger10 said:

Kris’s post isn’t as bad as it could have been.  He disagreed with bringing in troops.  He agreed that it was time to stop the looters.  Neither of these positions are that controversial.

We’ll never come together if we automatically disassociate with people we disagree with based on one post that isn’t that extreme.  

But he is referencing trumps speech monday night when trump spoke of peaceful protest and then deployed the military and fired gas canisters and rubber bullets into a peaceful crowd.

And the trump faithful are blatantly lying about what happened in the events around that speech. 

"The protesters were violent"
If so, why did Barr walk thru the crowd with no protective gear minutes before the crowd was gassed?

"Tear gas was not used"
A half truth to obfuscate a point is still lying. OC gas was admitted to being used (as was rubber bullets and smoke bombs)which has the same effect on the victim and is outlawed in acts of war.

Ledbetterman10

Lerxst1992 said:

bootlegger10 said:

Kris’s post isn’t as bad as it could have been.  He disagreed with bringing in troops.  He agreed that it was time to stop the looters.  Neither of these positions are that controversial.

We’ll never come together if we automatically disassociate with people we disagree with based on one post that isn’t that extreme.  

But he is referencing trumps speech monday night when trump spoke of peaceful protest and then deployed the military and fired gas canisters and rubber bullets into a peaceful crowd.

And the trump faithful are blatantly lying about what happened in the events around that speech. 

"The protesters were violent"
If so, why did Barr walk thru the crowd with no protective gear minutes before the crowd was gassed?

"Tear gas was not used"
A half truth to obfuscate a point is still lying. OC gas was admitted to being used (as was rubber bullets and smoke bombs)which has the same effect on the victim and is outlawed in acts of war.

No one seems to be mentioning how blatant of a first amendment violation that was to do that. Protests in front of the White House have been going in forever. So he lets there be chaos (looting, attacking of reporters) in front of the White House at night while he's bunkered down, but then shoots tear gas at peaceful protesters in broad daylight so he can take a picture in front of a church. I think there's legal grounds to sue him for infringing on their rights to assemble. 

Bentleyspop

A Richmond, VA mans experience....

https://twitter.com/nomoniker_/status/1267608918135640064?s=19

brianlux

gimmesometruth27 said:

brianlux said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

What happened to Krist...



https://consequenceofsound.net/2020/06/krist-novoselic-donald-trump-speech/

"Trump knocked it out of the park with his speech..."

...and I knocked Krist off my FB feed.  No big loss there.

thanks brian, i needed this laugh!!

i think krist was a bigtime libertarian at one point. i am pretty concerned that he feels that trump knocked it out of the park with that speech. it was a speech that a strongman dictator would have been proud of. i expected better of krist for some reason. probably because he was one of my heroes growing up. i guess people change, or at least show you who they really are eventually.

I too expected better from Krist.  He has a decent understanding of government and enough concern to have written a small but interesting little book called Of Grunge and Government; Let's Fix This Broken Democracy!

Krist, you don't fix a broken democracy by throwing out kudos about a narcissistic tyrant!!!

brianlux

hedonist said:

brianlux said:

Like many of you, I have been following all of this closely this last week. One of the things that is talked about a lot is the looting, burning and destruction of property.  Much of that talk focuses on two of three groups of people who engage in this activity:  angry and/or radical protesters and infiltrator "protesters"-  mostly fake Antifa infiltrators, white supremacists acting as protesters. 

The third kind isn't mentioned as often:  Opportunists using the distraction and/or confusion of protests to break into stores and steel.  They are people who have little or no interest in social justice issues but instead seek to exploit the situation for the sole purpose of stealing.  I would include in that group thrill seekers who enjoy breaking shit but who also have little or no interest in social justice issues.

I don't know what percentage of the people destroying and steeling are opportunists and thrill seekers, but I do find it interesting that there is not much focus on them in conversation on theft and damage as compared to the other groups. 

Why do you suppose that is?

I‘ve mentioned it here several times as it was happening in my city. I think others have as well. 

Crickets, mostly. 

Ah well!

Tell me about crickets please.  Is this a term to describe thieves?  I've never heard of it (although I have been hearing one in my book room lately that drives me nuts!  When the are outside, fine.  When they are in a room, they drive be batty!)

tempo_n_groove

So besides myself being duped by a fake twitter account, there have been more and more popping up.  The local police got a hold of them too and took it as a credible threat and found themselves in the area of question.

These tweets have scared the crap out of the local white people, heard a few that I work with clamoring about it.

Nothing happened.  Peaceful protesting. A few thousand on the boardwalk and a few thousand in the streets.  Two different areas and same results.

Areas were Merrick and Longbeach.

Hopefully more hope than hopelessness.

tempo_n_groove

All 4 officers will face trial now.

hedonist

brianlux said:

hedonist said:

brianlux said:

Like many of you, I have been following all of this closely this last week. One of the things that is talked about a lot is the looting, burning and destruction of property.  Much of that talk focuses on two of three groups of people who engage in this activity:  angry and/or radical protesters and infiltrator "protesters"-  mostly fake Antifa infiltrators, white supremacists acting as protesters. 

The third kind isn't mentioned as often:  Opportunists using the distraction and/or confusion of protests to break into stores and steel.  They are people who have little or no interest in social justice issues but instead seek to exploit the situation for the sole purpose of stealing.  I would include in that group thrill seekers who enjoy breaking shit but who also have little or no interest in social justice issues.

I don't know what percentage of the people destroying and steeling are opportunists and thrill seekers, but I do find it interesting that there is not much focus on them in conversation on theft and damage as compared to the other groups. 

Why do you suppose that is?

I‘ve mentioned it here several times as it was happening in my city. I think others have as well. 

Crickets, mostly. 

Ah well!

Tell me about crickets please.  Is this a term to describe thieves?  I've never heard of it (although I have been hearing one in my book room lately that drives me nuts!  When the are outside, fine.  When they are in a room, they drive be batty!)

Haha, no, crickets isn't a term for thieves.  It was used as the "silence/no response" metaphor, in that opportunistic destruction and thefts have indeed been mentioned here, as well on my local news.  I would imagine other cities who've been similarly effected are doing the same?

Hell, we even had a building here someone set on fire, and people were still running inside to swipe whatever was left.

My anger, disgust and sadness at those sights are on a par with this straw that broke the camel's back.

brianlux

hedonist said:

brianlux said:

hedonist said:

brianlux said:

Like many of you, I have been following all of this closely this last week. One of the things that is talked about a lot is the looting, burning and destruction of property.  Much of that talk focuses on two of three groups of people who engage in this activity:  angry and/or radical protesters and infiltrator "protesters"-  mostly fake Antifa infiltrators, white supremacists acting as protesters. 

The third kind isn't mentioned as often:  Opportunists using the distraction and/or confusion of protests to break into stores and steel.  They are people who have little or no interest in social justice issues but instead seek to exploit the situation for the sole purpose of stealing.  I would include in that group thrill seekers who enjoy breaking shit but who also have little or no interest in social justice issues.

I don't know what percentage of the people destroying and steeling are opportunists and thrill seekers, but I do find it interesting that there is not much focus on them in conversation on theft and damage as compared to the other groups. 

Why do you suppose that is?

I‘ve mentioned it here several times as it was happening in my city. I think others have as well. 

Crickets, mostly. 

Ah well!

Tell me about crickets please.  Is this a term to describe thieves?  I've never heard of it (although I have been hearing one in my book room lately that drives me nuts!  When the are outside, fine.  When they are in a room, they drive be batty!)

Haha, no, crickets isn't a term for thieves.  It was used as the "silence/no response" metaphor, in that opportunistic destruction and thefts have indeed been mentioned here, as well on my local news.  I would imagine other cities who've been similarly effected are doing the same?

Hell, we even had a building here someone set on fire, and people were still running inside to swipe whatever was left.

My anger, disgust and sadness at those sights are on a par with this straw that broke the camel's back.

I hope things are settling down in your area, Hedo.  It's disappointing to see nonconstructive violence happen.

Just been watching the local news and they are saying the widespread protest across the U.S. are trending more toward the peaceful side.  This is good news, both that many people are involved and doing so in more constructive ways. 

jerparker20

tempo_n_groove said:

So besides myself being duped by a fake twitter account, there have been more and more popping up.  The local police got a hold of them too and took it as a credible threat and found themselves in the area of question.

These tweets have scared the crap out of the local white people, heard a few that I work with clamoring about it.

Nothing happened.  Peaceful protesting. A few thousand on the boardwalk and a few thousand in the streets.  Two different areas and same results.

Areas were Merrick and Longbeach.

Hopefully more hope than hopelessness.

Twin Cities resident here.

There has been a lot of misinformation being spread via social media especially regarding white supremacists in the area.

KKK rallies in city parks. KKK in full hood and robe chasing people in the streets with guns. Bombs being thrown at homes in North Minneapolis. Handwritten notes being left on people’s front steps/cars threatening to burn their homes down. Things of that nature intended to stir shit up. None of it has been substantiated, or true.

Now there is truth to people finding incendiary items stashed throughout the area (matches, bottles/jars filled with flammable liquids, things of that nature). How wide spread is still up in the air. Same with people driving and abandoning vehicles without plates. The authorities have confirmed but it’s very isolated. Along with militia type being photographed in town, but those goofs are all over in the out state areas of MN.

i have no doubt there were outsiders in town fucking things up, there have been some out of towners arrested. But there were also a lot of young kids and opportunists causing the damage.