If Heterosexualism Existed, We Wouldn’t Have To Make It Up

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Comments

  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 29,630

    Firsts, to all here:  I apologize for responding like an asshole.  I get mad at people who intentionally bate others.  That is their choice.  My choice is, I can choose to ignore the bating or be an asshole.  I chose poorly.  My bad.

    But the fact remains: I can't stand people who get their kicks bating others.  Another fact: I did read some of the article.  Another fact:  to me it reads like clickbate bullshit.  Another fact:  I do sell books and I do read books.  Lots of books.  Some people knit and crochet.  Cool.

    And the last and most important fact.  The author of this thread and I will never see eye to eye.  Our interacting is a waste of our time and the time of everyone else here.  So here's they easy and logical solution:  From now on, I will ignore every thread posted by the author of this one, and every one of his posts.  Yeah, that could be seen as a cop out.  But it's the best I can come up with.  And just think of how much bullshit from both he and I will be eliminated from AMT!

    Adios, amigo!
    “After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music.”
    -Aldous Huxley
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.









  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,557
    brianlux said:

    Firsts, to all here:  I apologize for responding like an asshole.  I get mad at people who intentionally bate others.  That is their choice.  My choice is, I can choose to ignore the bating or be an asshole.  I chose poorly.  My bad.

    But the fact remains: I can't stand people who get their kicks bating others.  Another fact: I did read some of the article.  Another fact:  to me it reads like clickbate bullshit.  Another fact:  I do sell books and I do read books.  Lots of books.  Some people knit and crochet.  Cool.

    And the last and most important fact.  The author of this thread and I will never see eye to eye.  Our interacting is a waste of our time and the time of everyone else here.  So here's they easy and logical solution:  From now on, I will ignore every thread posted by the author of this one, and every one of his posts.  Yeah, that could be seen as a cop out.  But it's the best I can come up with.  And just think of how much bullshit from both he and I will be eliminated from AMT!

    Adios, amigo!
    Shut it down, everyone. I created this entire thread just to bait Brian. Now that I’ve been caught, I guess we’re done. 
    Pudding in and pudding in--don't feel like methadone. 
  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 20,540
    What a bizarre thread. 
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 18,496

  • F Me In The BrainF Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commetsPosts: 18,233
    brianlux said:

    Firsts, to all here:  I apologize for responding like an asshole.  I get mad at people who intentionally bate others.  That is their choice.  My choice is, I can choose to ignore the bating or be an asshole.  I chose poorly.  My bad.

    But the fact remains: I can't stand people who get their kicks bating others.  Another fact: I did read some of the article.  Another fact:  to me it reads like clickbate bullshit.  Another fact:  I do sell books and I do read books.  Lots of books.  Some people knit and crochet.  Cool.

    And the last and most important fact.  The author of this thread and I will never see eye to eye.  Our interacting is a waste of our time and the time of everyone else here.  So here's they easy and logical solution:  From now on, I will ignore every thread posted by the author of this one, and every one of his posts.  Yeah, that could be seen as a cop out.  But it's the best I can come up with.  And just think of how much bullshit from both he and I will be eliminated from AMT!

    Adios, amigo!
    Just sent him to Ignore, Brian.  
    My setting is full already....a shame, lol, as I don't think it is a cop out.
    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 16,935
    ecdanc said:
    AMT is a weird place. Here, in a thread that is literally just "here's a thought-provoking article," people feel the need to post about the article without reading it. 
    "here's a thought provoking article" is no where in the op. other than "full article posted below" theres no commentary from you presented......
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 16,935
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    brianlux said:
    ecdanc said:
    brianlux said:
    ^^^ I'll make sure to read all of that when I've run out of books to read.
    You posted your inane tangent in response to something you didn't even read? 

    I read enough to call bullshit, yes.

    I'm in the same book.

    ;)
    I get it. Reading is hard. Maybe stick to the threads that don't require it. 

    I wish they had more pictures in these threads.  You are spot on with your assessment of me -- reading is very difficult.
    Now you must come to believe that language is a power great than ourselves that can restore us to sanity.  

    You lost me at 'Now you must come to believe...'.
    Not familiar with AA, I see. 
    being a member of said org. No where in the literature I've read several times over does it say "now you must come to believe"

    what the outline of the steps you'll find on posters in most meetings does it say you must. it says "we came to believe......"

    theres a few places where it does say must, but not as written by you.

    the entire program is based on suggestion a member is free to reject.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,557
    mickeyrat said:
    ecdanc said:
    AMT is a weird place. Here, in a thread that is literally just "here's a thought-provoking article," people feel the need to post about the article without reading it. 
    "here's a thought provoking article" is no where in the op. other than "full article posted below" theres no commentary from you presented......
    The article is the commentary. 
    Pudding in and pudding in--don't feel like methadone. 
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,557
    mickeyrat said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    brianlux said:
    ecdanc said:
    brianlux said:
    ^^^ I'll make sure to read all of that when I've run out of books to read.
    You posted your inane tangent in response to something you didn't even read? 

    I read enough to call bullshit, yes.

    I'm in the same book.

    ;)
    I get it. Reading is hard. Maybe stick to the threads that don't require it. 

    I wish they had more pictures in these threads.  You are spot on with your assessment of me -- reading is very difficult.
    Now you must come to believe that language is a power great than ourselves that can restore us to sanity.  

    You lost me at 'Now you must come to believe...'.
    Not familiar with AA, I see. 
    being a member of said org. No where in the literature I've read several times over does it say "now you must come to believe"

    what the outline of the steps you'll find on posters in most meetings does it say you must. it says "we came to believe......"

    theres a few places where it does say must, but not as written by you.

    the entire program is based on suggestion a member is free to reject.
    A failed joke. Full respect to AA. 
    Pudding in and pudding in--don't feel like methadone. 
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 16,935
    ecdanc said:
    mickeyrat said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    brianlux said:
    ecdanc said:
    brianlux said:
    ^^^ I'll make sure to read all of that when I've run out of books to read.
    You posted your inane tangent in response to something you didn't even read? 

    I read enough to call bullshit, yes.

    I'm in the same book.

    ;)
    I get it. Reading is hard. Maybe stick to the threads that don't require it. 

    I wish they had more pictures in these threads.  You are spot on with your assessment of me -- reading is very difficult.
    Now you must come to believe that language is a power great than ourselves that can restore us to sanity.  

    You lost me at 'Now you must come to believe...'.
    Not familiar with AA, I see. 
    being a member of said org. No where in the literature I've read several times over does it say "now you must come to believe"

    what the outline of the steps you'll find on posters in most meetings does it say you must. it says "we came to believe......"

    theres a few places where it does say must, but not as written by you.

    the entire program is based on suggestion a member is free to reject.
    A failed joke. Full respect to AA. 
    thank you.  a request if I may. there is enough misunderstanding and misinformation about what aa is, what it does and what it suggests out there.  please becone educated enough about it to use accurate statements when speaking of it in whatever context in the future.

    I would appreciate it.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,557
    mickeyrat said:
    ecdanc said:
    mickeyrat said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    brianlux said:
    ecdanc said:
    brianlux said:
    ^^^ I'll make sure to read all of that when I've run out of books to read.
    You posted your inane tangent in response to something you didn't even read? 

    I read enough to call bullshit, yes.

    I'm in the same book.

    ;)
    I get it. Reading is hard. Maybe stick to the threads that don't require it. 

    I wish they had more pictures in these threads.  You are spot on with your assessment of me -- reading is very difficult.
    Now you must come to believe that language is a power great than ourselves that can restore us to sanity.  

    You lost me at 'Now you must come to believe...'.
    Not familiar with AA, I see. 
    being a member of said org. No where in the literature I've read several times over does it say "now you must come to believe"

    what the outline of the steps you'll find on posters in most meetings does it say you must. it says "we came to believe......"

    theres a few places where it does say must, but not as written by you.

    the entire program is based on suggestion a member is free to reject.
    A failed joke. Full respect to AA. 
    thank you.  a request if I may. there is enough misunderstanding and misinformation about what aa is, what it does and what it suggests out there.  please becone educated enough about it to use accurate statements when speaking of it in whatever context in the future.

    I would appreciate it.
    Will do. I'll avoid making it part of a punchline, for starters. 
    Pudding in and pudding in--don't feel like methadone. 
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 16,935
    ecdanc said:
    mickeyrat said:
    ecdanc said:
    mickeyrat said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    ecdanc said:
    brianlux said:
    ecdanc said:
    brianlux said:
    ^^^ I'll make sure to read all of that when I've run out of books to read.
    You posted your inane tangent in response to something you didn't even read? 

    I read enough to call bullshit, yes.

    I'm in the same book.

    ;)
    I get it. Reading is hard. Maybe stick to the threads that don't require it. 

    I wish they had more pictures in these threads.  You are spot on with your assessment of me -- reading is very difficult.
    Now you must come to believe that language is a power great than ourselves that can restore us to sanity.  

    You lost me at 'Now you must come to believe...'.
    Not familiar with AA, I see. 
    being a member of said org. No where in the literature I've read several times over does it say "now you must come to believe"

    what the outline of the steps you'll find on posters in most meetings does it say you must. it says "we came to believe......"

    theres a few places where it does say must, but not as written by you.

    the entire program is based on suggestion a member is free to reject.
    A failed joke. Full respect to AA. 
    thank you.  a request if I may. there is enough misunderstanding and misinformation about what aa is, what it does and what it suggests out there.  please becone educated enough about it to use accurate statements when speaking of it in whatever context in the future.

    I would appreciate it.
    Will do. I'll avoid making it part of a punchline, for starters. 
    members do all the time. so no reason why you cant or shouldnt either. just looking for an accurate representation is all.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,557
    benjs said:
    Thanks for posting this. I'm still digesting, but here are my first thoughts.

    1. Outside of academia, I suspect most will be confused right from the get-go, where heterosexuality is given a different definition compared to the colloquially used one (a man and a woman), with no explanation or acknowledgement to that effect. That atypical definition is continued all the way through to the end. 
    2. I'm all for introducing an embrace of otherness to combat and curb systemic injustices that exist today, but the tone used almost seems to err on the opposite direction - instilling guilt in those who have simply woken up being attracted to a certain type of person, and masking it as clever satire. It seems clear that she understands this portion of gender challenges well, but I think her mechanism of changing hearts and minds is deeply flawed. 
    3. I don't have cable, nor the desire to access a show called Love Island on the internet. I don't know whether the show is about any of the letters in LGBTQ+ getting with any other letters in LGBTQ+, or about what I've only ever heard referred to as heterosexual relationships (and what would you call those now, or is labelling itself an abhorrent act?). Which ever two individuals are trying to get with each other on a show like this, I don't see why I should care regardless of my sexual orientation
    4. Traditional gender archetypes gave us critical skills that have led to the perpetuation of our society. Does every person born with female genitalia have a destiny of being deeply empathetic, and every person born with male genitalia have a destiny of being aggressive and assertive? No; but these are predispositions formed in natural ways. What do you suggest we do as a society to assure that we still have expertise in those realms, or do you feel that gender naturally skews people to favour one of those and that we would be more well-rounded in a world without the concept of a gender?

    I'll begin by saying that it appears to me this piece is meant as a sort of comedic one-off (with a serious point) that connects to Lewis's broader research (I admit, I'm not familiar with that work). In one sense, it's essentially an advertisement for her book; in another it's just a Valentine's Day gag with some measure of intellectual payoff. All of that is to say, I don't think the article figures as traditional advocacy; rather it has a somewhat limited imagined audience (potential book purchasers? regular buyers from Verso?). 

    I'll turn, then, to your last point. I obviously cannot speak for Lewis (I don't know her), so I'll only speak for myself. I question your assertion that "these are predispositions formed in natural ways." I'm not sure I fully disagree, but the word "natural" there concerns me, because it does a lot of work. What exactly constitutes this "natural" miasma in which individuals and/or groups develop purported gender characteristics? I would argue that gender, as such, is overdetermined by a complex set of material conditions and discourses that make gender--both as a construct and in its specific manifestations--no more "natural" than any number of other socio-discursive formations. Which is to say, we can and should imagine new social forms that retain that which is worth retaining, while stripping away the harmful elements. Many believe such a future will require fundamentally rejecting "gender" as a meaningful concept. I'll defer that question for the moment by simply saying I find Lewis's gesture toward future forms (in the 2nd half of this piece) intriguing and worth exploring/pursuing. 


    Pudding in and pudding in--don't feel like methadone. 
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,557
    Maybe now that some of the troll activity has died down, the conversation can begin!
    Pudding in and pudding in--don't feel like methadone. 
  • F Me In The BrainF Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commetsPosts: 18,233

    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,557
    ecdanc said:
    Maybe now that some of the troll activity has died down, the conversation can begin!

    Pudding in and pudding in--don't feel like methadone. 
  • F Me In The BrainF Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commetsPosts: 18,233
    I'm a fan.
    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,557
    I'm a fan.

    Pudding in and pudding in--don't feel like methadone. 
  • F Me In The BrainF Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commetsPosts: 18,233
    ecdanc said:
    I'm a fan.



    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • dankinddankind I am not your foot. Posts: 14,951
    Jason P said:

    Takes all kinds.
    I SAW PEARL JAM
  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 8,110
    ecdanc said:
    benjs said:
    Thanks for posting this. I'm still digesting, but here are my first thoughts.

    1. Outside of academia, I suspect most will be confused right from the get-go, where heterosexuality is given a different definition compared to the colloquially used one (a man and a woman), with no explanation or acknowledgement to that effect. That atypical definition is continued all the way through to the end. 
    2. I'm all for introducing an embrace of otherness to combat and curb systemic injustices that exist today, but the tone used almost seems to err on the opposite direction - instilling guilt in those who have simply woken up being attracted to a certain type of person, and masking it as clever satire. It seems clear that she understands this portion of gender challenges well, but I think her mechanism of changing hearts and minds is deeply flawed. 
    3. I don't have cable, nor the desire to access a show called Love Island on the internet. I don't know whether the show is about any of the letters in LGBTQ+ getting with any other letters in LGBTQ+, or about what I've only ever heard referred to as heterosexual relationships (and what would you call those now, or is labelling itself an abhorrent act?). Which ever two individuals are trying to get with each other on a show like this, I don't see why I should care regardless of my sexual orientation
    4. Traditional gender archetypes gave us critical skills that have led to the perpetuation of our society. Does every person born with female genitalia have a destiny of being deeply empathetic, and every person born with male genitalia have a destiny of being aggressive and assertive? No; but these are predispositions formed in natural ways. What do you suggest we do as a society to assure that we still have expertise in those realms, or do you feel that gender naturally skews people to favour one of those and that we would be more well-rounded in a world without the concept of a gender?

    I'll begin by saying that it appears to me this piece is meant as a sort of comedic one-off (with a serious point) that connects to Lewis's broader research (I admit, I'm not familiar with that work). In one sense, it's essentially an advertisement for her book; in another it's just a Valentine's Day gag with some measure of intellectual payoff. All of that is to say, I don't think the article figures as traditional advocacy; rather it has a somewhat limited imagined audience (potential book purchasers? regular buyers from Verso?). 

    I'll turn, then, to your last point. I obviously cannot speak for Lewis (I don't know her), so I'll only speak for myself. I question your assertion that "these are predispositions formed in natural ways." I'm not sure I fully disagree, but the word "natural" there concerns me, because it does a lot of work. What exactly constitutes this "natural" miasma in which individuals and/or groups develop purported gender characteristics? I would argue that gender, as such, is overdetermined by a complex set of material conditions and discourses that make gender--both as a construct and in its specific manifestations--no more "natural" than any number of other socio-discursive formations. Which is to say, we can and should imagine new social forms that retain that which is worth retaining, while stripping away the harmful elements. Many believe such a future will require fundamentally rejecting "gender" as a meaningful concept. I'll defer that question for the moment by simply saying I find Lewis's gesture toward future forms (in the 2nd half of this piece) intriguing and worth exploring/pursuing. 


    Thanks for your response on this! 

    On your first paragraph - totally makes sense, I was more commenting on the value that we on the forums could potentially derive from it, and why it seems some are missing the author's point.

    On your second paragraph, I can appreciate where you're coming from. Perhaps to remove any stigma associated with that, the term "organic" might've been better (as in societies have organically evolved to produce gender archetypes). In terms of removing gender archetypes, I'm all for it. The difference between the author and me, probably, is that I'm able to wrap my head around removing "gender archetypes", but not yet the concept of removing genders themselves. To be clear, I'm not saying I'm opposed, I'm just still in "thinking" mode. Technically what both she and you are saying makes a lot of sense, as long as we can make these changes responsibly and parent to teach children of any/all/no gender to perpetuate the skills society has come to depend on from certain types (genders) of individuals. This is totally within our grasps, and ultimately promoting being a renaissance person with a multitude of interests and capabilities is something I'm always an advocate for - maybe this is even an expedited way to reach that end goal.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • rollingsrollings unknownPosts: 7,055
    They had artificial insemination in the 3rd century?
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 22,577
    The second time I’ve heard of it now. What in turtle’s name will spawn ruminations on gender roles now?

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/15/entertainment/caroline-flack-love-island-dead-trnd/index.html
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

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