Nirvana. Overrated?

pearljammr78

Nirvana as a whole, timeless. Probably not. The unplugged. Yes. A couple songs. Yes. 

Soundgarden, AIC w/ Layne, PJ those bands to me belong with the Floyds, The Beatles, Zeppelin, Hendrix etc. Classic timeless music that will always be good. 

JT167846

I'd say Nevermind is the most influential album of the 90s so would put it ahead of Unplugged. Also didn't get propped up by Cobain's death. Was among the very best Unplugged releases though no doubt. My brother would agree having flogged my copy so often I never knew where it was. 

Zod

I finally thought of the right word.   I think of Nirvana as a "Catalyst".   Aside from a few bands, Hair Metal was ruling the rock roost in the later 80's, and even up to the first few years of the 90s.   Nirvana's music was a 180, being so raw.   It spoke to a lot of people.    This caused a giant spotlight to be pointed at the the early 90's rock bands.    Thus creating a new path for Rock music.

I don't think being a Catalyst and an Influence are the same thing.  Nirvana was rough, raw and viceral.  As we got further away from the early 90s.  Bands became more polished, bland, and more formulaic.   It seems to me the rock industry went in the complete opposite direction of what Nirvana was.  Thus I don't hear their music influence in modern rock music. 

MayDay10

willbarclay said:

Had Nirvana not paved the way I’m sure someone else would have. 
I have never been a big fan. Liked a few songs but I just don’t see myself listening to nevermind when I’m sitting at home and 60 years old. 
I don’t believe it is timeless music. Therefore my vote is for a bit overrated. 

I was/am a big fan, but I agree.  It isn't music catered toward adults other than the unplugged performance.  People our age hear it and get nostalgic.... but the older I get, the less I seek it out.  I don't see new generations overly gravitating toward it and seeing the value in it.  It was angst and rock that was perfect for 1991.  Most tracks don't seem timeless like Beatles, Doors, Floyd, Stones, Zeppelin, etc.... even as much as contemporaries (or near-so) PJ, SG, Foos, RHCP, Rush, Primus, Pumpkins, Green Day, DMB, etc.  If I had a party of a poker game and played Scentless Apprentice or Breed.... I think I would be asked to skip to the next track.

I guess it hasnt aged well, while AIC, listening to some tracks and albums is downright haunting.  Nirvana.... Im not feeling the young angst.

Like mentioned.  Huge flashpoint in music history

rummy

Zod said:

I finally thought of the right word.   I think of Nirvana as a "Catalyst".   Aside from a few bands, Hair Metal was ruling the rock roost in the later 80's, and even up to the first few years of the 90s.   Nirvana's music was a 180, being so raw.   It spoke to a lot of people.    This caused a giant spotlight to be pointed at the the early 90's rock bands.    Thus creating a new path for Rock music.

I don't think being a Catalyst and an Influence are the same thing.  Nirvana was rough, raw and viceral.  As we got further away from the early 90s.  Bands became more polished, bland, and more formulaic.   It seems to me the rock industry went in the complete opposite direction of what Nirvana was.  Thus I don't hear their music influence in modern rock music. 

I'm on board with this post. "Catalyst" ...I like it. Makes sense indeed.

rgambs

Overrated by the average listener, right-rated by the more discerning listener.

pearljammr78

MayDay10 said:

willbarclay said:

Had Nirvana not paved the way I’m sure someone else would have. 
I have never been a big fan. Liked a few songs but I just don’t see myself listening to nevermind when I’m sitting at home and 60 years old. 
I don’t believe it is timeless music. Therefore my vote is for a bit overrated. 

I was/am a big fan, but I agree.  It isn't music catered toward adults other than the unplugged performance.  People our age hear it and get nostalgic.... but the older I get, the less I seek it out.  I don't see new generations overly gravitating toward it and seeing the value in it.  It was angst and rock that was perfect for 1991.  Most tracks don't seem timeless like Beatles, Doors, Floyd, Stones, Zeppelin, etc.... even as much as contemporaries (or near-so) PJ, SG, Foos, RHCP, Rush, Primus, Pumpkins, Green Day, DMB, etc.  If I had a party of a poker game and played Scentless Apprentice or Breed.... I think I would be asked to skip to the next track.

I guess it hasnt aged well, while AIC, listening to some tracks and albums is downright haunting.  Nirvana.... Im not feeling the young angst.

Like mentioned.  Huge flashpoint in music history

I agree so much with this post. 

HughFreakingDillon

nothing touches nirvana's unplugged. 
that being said, i was a massive, i mean MASSIVE nirvana fan in the 90's, when they broke, after kurt died, etc. but i have to agree with OP. i rarely listen to them anymore. and nevermind is actually the last album of theirs that i put on. first is in utero, next is bleach, then it's nevermind. i'm far from a punk purist, cause before nirvana, i didn't listen to punk at all. but kurt was right when he said it sounded too polished. it fucking blew my mind when it came out. it was the antithesis to all the music of the time, and it was groundbreaking (at least in the sense that they were the ones who got the attention). i listened to it as much as or more than ten or badmotorfinger. but after listening to their other records and also punk music of the time and previous generations, nevermind's production is punk for the masses. 

kurt's songwriting is incredible. i think the saddest part of his death was what he could have put out after nirvana's eventual breakup. 

HughFreakingDillon

brianlux said:

It would be helpful to understand how those of you feel who have made comments about not caring for Cobain as a person.  Can you explain why?  Did you know him or meet him?  If you did not meet or know him, do you believe you can know much about a person from what you see of them on camera or read in the tabloids?  Just curious as to how you come to the conclusion you've drawn.  What specifically do you dislike about him as a person?

things he said in the media, not out of context, not stuff written about him. he seemed like kind of a hypocritical dick. he claimed he didn't want fame. he absolutely wanted fame. every single person around him, including his wife and best friends, have confirmed that.

he made fun of all the other bands that weren't tied to the punk rock ethos; he did all the interviews, he went on all the shows, they took a big record deal for their second record. i mean, we all make fun of the hair metal bands to some degree, but he openly made fun of how they looked and how they acted on national tv all the while whining about his upbringing of being bullied by people who didn't like him for how he looked and the music he liked. 

he was apparently a feminist who stockpiled guns and had physical confrontations with his wife. he seemed like quite a huge fraud to me. he seemed to be constantly saying stuff that contradicted things he had said in the recent past. or in how he acted. i think it's possible he felt one way and felt guilty about the fame so he acted another way, but still. 

HughFreakingDillon

Merkin Baller said:

brianlux said:

Merkin Baller said:

brianlux said:

Merkin Baller said:

brianlux said:

It would be helpful to understand how those of you feel who have made comments about not caring for Cobain as a person.  Can you explain why?  Did you know him or meet him?  If you did not meet or know him, do you believe you can know much about a person from what you see of them on camera or read in the tabloids?  Just curious as to how you come to the conclusion you've drawn.  What specifically do you dislike about him as a person?

You want clarification on why someone might not be a fan of a guy who was doing heroin around his infant daughter?

I don't believe everything I read in the tabloids.  Maybe he did, maybe he shot up in the bathroom or waited until the kid was asleep. 

And what about musicians who smoke pot in the home or swear in front of their kids or drink excessively or have an affair or don't believe in Jesus.  Holy shit!  Now we have to stop liking a whole shit load of artists!

It's good that you don't believe everything you read in tabloids, as they're not known to be reputable. I can't speak for what's written in them, I don't read them.  

There's a widely held public perception that Kurt & Courtney were active heroin users around their child. Courtney admitting to shooting up while pregnant (even if it was only once), and the aforementioned video of Kurt nodding off while holding the baby do little to refute that perception. I'm comfortable believing it to be true based on the information available to us.

I think comparing the use of hard drugs in front of / around a child to swearing or not believing in Jesus is ridiculous, do you really equate those things?

Regarding the other examples, yes... if someone consumes excessive amounts of pot or alcohol in front of a child, or cheats on a spouse, then I'm going to think less of that person. Does this make me judgmental? Maybe, but I'm ok with that.

I was 15 in '92 when I first started listening to Nirvana, and like so many other grunge bands, they were a big part of my high school years. After reading Heavier than Heaven and watching some of Montage of Heck, I was turned off of Kurt Cobain the person, but I never won't appreciate the music that saw me through my teenage years. 

I don't, but some people do. 

What I'm trying to say is that I don't pass judgement on people I don't know.  I love Dinosaur Jr. but for all I know, J Mascis might be the world's biggest asshole (I doubt it!), but his private life is none of my concern.  I love the music, but I don't know the man and am not going to say, "I can't stand that guy".   After all, what do we REALLY know about people we don't know that you hear stuff about?  And if you are judgemental about people you don't know, that's your business.  I'm not passing judgement on you.  Like Clint Conley sings in Mission Of Burma's "Academy Fight Song" says, "I'm not judging you/ I'm judging me."

Yeah, judgmental or not, I can't not find Love's admission of what she did while pregnant repugnant. I can't un-see the video of Cobain from Montage of Heck, and those things are going to influence my opinion of them as people. I think it's important to note these aren't rumors or here say. They are actual things that happened, not tabloid BS.

There are plenty of musicians I appreciate who I don't think I would want to have a beer with (Mike Patton, Maynard James Keenan, Josh Hommes to name a few) and that's ok. People are who they are. I'm really only interested in their art.

But when there's a kid involved and there are things are going on that we know were going on with Kurt & Courtney, I'm going to end up forming a negative opinion of them. It's how I'm wired. If that makes me judgmental then so be it. I've been called worse.

Sorry OP, didn't mean to derail.

just for fact checking clarity, and not for excusing, i believe the story goes that courtney shot up while pregnant but before she knew she was pregnant. she didn't shoot up after that. 

HughFreakingDillon

Thoughts_Arrive said:

The album I meant.
Marketing is more pushing shit products onto people that mindlessly buy it.
This song sold itself. It didn't need a video. 

i would have to disagree. i saw the video first. music video was bigger than radio or any other medium at the time. when teen spirit came on much music's power hour the first time, i honestly recall my jaw dropping. i remember where i was, who i was with. as a massive pj fan, i have no such memory of pj. that was one of those 'where were you when' moments in my own personal history i will never forget. 

Attaway77

Listening to the Paramount show now once again.... This is freaking 1991 and this shit still sounds great today....  Unreal....

Attaway77

willbarclay said:

Nirvana is not my cup of tea at all. Couple songs are ok. Not something I could see myself listening to when I’m 64 

Come on man....... That's most music in general as we get older. Still rocking out at 64, right on....

Thoughts_Arrive

Attaway77 said:

Listening to the Paramount show now once again.... This is freaking 1991 and this shit still sounds great today....  Unreal....

Yep still sounds great to me. 

brianlux

willbarclay said:

Had Nirvana not paved the way I’m sure someone else would have. 
I have never been a big fan. Liked a few songs but I just don’t see myself listening to nevermind when I’m sitting at home and 60 years old. 
I don’t believe it is timeless music. Therefore my vote is for a bit overrated. 

rummy said:

willbarclay said:

Had Nirvana not paved the way I’m sure someone else would have. 
I have never been a big fan. Liked a few songs but I just don’t see myself listening to nevermind when I’m sitting at home and 60 years old. 
I don’t believe it is timeless music. Therefore my vote is for a bit overrated. 

I see your point at 60 years old but do you see yourself listen to, say, Ten or Superunknown? (Not sure if you are a SG fan?)

Oddly enough, I've made it this far (46) so I'll probably still be listening in 14 years.

68 and still digging Nirvana. 

Merkin Baller

Yeah, for what it's worth, I can't see myself playing Deep, or Blood or Rusty Cage at poker parties either, nor do I see myself cranking Slayer, Guns & Roses or Metallica in my 60s.

None of that means those songs aren't awesome or those bands weren't hugely popular or influential.

Merkin Baller

HughFreakingDillon said:

Merkin Baller said:

brianlux said:

Merkin Baller said:

brianlux said:

Merkin Baller said:

brianlux said:

It would be helpful to understand how those of you feel who have made comments about not caring for Cobain as a person.  Can you explain why?  Did you know him or meet him?  If you did not meet or know him, do you believe you can know much about a person from what you see of them on camera or read in the tabloids?  Just curious as to how you come to the conclusion you've drawn.  What specifically do you dislike about him as a person?

You want clarification on why someone might not be a fan of a guy who was doing heroin around his infant daughter?

I don't believe everything I read in the tabloids.  Maybe he did, maybe he shot up in the bathroom or waited until the kid was asleep. 

And what about musicians who smoke pot in the home or swear in front of their kids or drink excessively or have an affair or don't believe in Jesus.  Holy shit!  Now we have to stop liking a whole shit load of artists!

It's good that you don't believe everything you read in tabloids, as they're not known to be reputable. I can't speak for what's written in them, I don't read them.  

There's a widely held public perception that Kurt & Courtney were active heroin users around their child. Courtney admitting to shooting up while pregnant (even if it was only once), and the aforementioned video of Kurt nodding off while holding the baby do little to refute that perception. I'm comfortable believing it to be true based on the information available to us.

I think comparing the use of hard drugs in front of / around a child to swearing or not believing in Jesus is ridiculous, do you really equate those things?

Regarding the other examples, yes... if someone consumes excessive amounts of pot or alcohol in front of a child, or cheats on a spouse, then I'm going to think less of that person. Does this make me judgmental? Maybe, but I'm ok with that.

I was 15 in '92 when I first started listening to Nirvana, and like so many other grunge bands, they were a big part of my high school years. After reading Heavier than Heaven and watching some of Montage of Heck, I was turned off of Kurt Cobain the person, but I never won't appreciate the music that saw me through my teenage years. 

I don't, but some people do. 

What I'm trying to say is that I don't pass judgement on people I don't know.  I love Dinosaur Jr. but for all I know, J Mascis might be the world's biggest asshole (I doubt it!), but his private life is none of my concern.  I love the music, but I don't know the man and am not going to say, "I can't stand that guy".   After all, what do we REALLY know about people we don't know that you hear stuff about?  And if you are judgemental about people you don't know, that's your business.  I'm not passing judgement on you.  Like Clint Conley sings in Mission Of Burma's "Academy Fight Song" says, "I'm not judging you/ I'm judging me."

Yeah, judgmental or not, I can't not find Love's admission of what she did while pregnant repugnant. I can't un-see the video of Cobain from Montage of Heck, and those things are going to influence my opinion of them as people. I think it's important to note these aren't rumors or here say. They are actual things that happened, not tabloid BS.

There are plenty of musicians I appreciate who I don't think I would want to have a beer with (Mike Patton, Maynard James Keenan, Josh Hommes to name a few) and that's ok. People are who they are. I'm really only interested in their art.

But when there's a kid involved and there are things are going on that we know were going on with Kurt & Courtney, I'm going to end up forming a negative opinion of them. It's how I'm wired. If that makes me judgmental then so be it. I've been called worse.

Sorry OP, didn't mean to derail.

just for fact checking clarity, and not for excusing, i believe the story goes that courtney shot up while pregnant but before she knew she was pregnant. she didn't shoot up after that. 

It's a good, and important point. Noted.

I like your other comment too, about Cobain's general demeanor in his interviews. He was constantly looking down on other artists and acts, and he came off as a pompous ass.

Thoughts_Arrive

I have no problem with him looking down on hair metal.

MayDay10

Merkin Baller said:

Yeah, for what it's worth, I can't see myself playing Deep, or Blood or Rusty Cage at poker parties either, nor do I see myself cranking Slayer, Guns & Roses or Metallica in my 60s.

None of that means those songs aren't awesome or those bands weren't hugely popular or influential.

I think many other songs by well-known bands have a timeless quality.  

If someone immerses themself in David Lee Roth's Van Halen and Guns & Roses... I automatically believe they are trapped in the 80s, have a mullet, and probably either own or aspire to own a trans-am and like to work on cars in their driveway while blasting PANAMA!

I hear Nirvana, and much moreso than contemporaries.... it is stuck in 1991.  There isnt a lot of material and not a ton of depth to it. 

I guess a lot of it has to do with the small window Nirvana existed in.  But, on the other hand, Alice In Chains serves as a comparison, and IMO their music holds up a lot better, and doesnt make me think only of MTV videos and ordering Columbia House CDs

Spiritual_Chaos

Nevermind will be timeless in the way of it capturing future generations teenagers and have them pick it up far more than Ten will me thinks.