D-Day at 75

24

Comments

  • JPPJ84JPPJ84 Hamburg, Germany Posts: 277
    The Russian miniseries is called Liberation https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0198811/?ref_=m_nv_sr_1
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 18,974
    edited June 5
    JPPJ84 said:
    The Russian miniseries is called Liberation https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0198811/?ref_=m_nv_sr_1
    I would be really interested to hear how German schools teach the Holocaust and World War 2.  Any insight?
    Post edited by mcgruff10 on
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 13,300
    edited June 5
    The documentary about D-Day I talked about in another thread seems to be french. The title is SACRIFICE From D-Day to the Liberation of Paris

    Part 1 (which I saw) with the colorized photo and step-by-step breakdown of the operation. Part 2 is the road to Paris. Very interesting:

    https://youtu.be/toHhkWz8PIU
    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
  • JPPJ84JPPJ84 Hamburg, Germany Posts: 277
    edited June 5
    mcgruff10 said:
    JPPJ84 said:
    The Russian miniseries is called Liberation https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0198811/?ref_=m_nv_sr_1
    I would be really interested to see how German schools teach the Holocaust and World War 2.  Any insight?
    I honestly don’t know what it’s like today, I don’t know any history teachers or school children. I was born in 84 and our history classes left a lot to be desired when it came to German history in general. A main focus was on the first and Second World War and the politics in between (Weimarer Republik) so of course we learned about the Reichskristallnacht, Anne Frank, the concentration camps, the resistance group white rose, the assassination attempts on Hitler and so on. But I honestly think it should have been more or at least have a wider focus on what it did to the entire world really. It did take a lot of space and rightly so. What bugs me though is that there’s hardly any room for the rest of German history. A bit about Bismarck and the late 19th century and that’s it. Nothing about post war Germany. Again I can only speak for my school time and even only my region. Education is part of regional politics so it could have been very different in other parts of Germany. I honestly think the German-German history is even touchier than the wars. With the wars everyone agrees about the cruelty, the responsibility. Post war German history is a lot more complicated and „personal“ . Boy I hope you understand what I’m trying to say. Even today the inner German division is still in people’s heads, there’s loads of prejudice.
    Post edited by JPPJ84 on
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 18,974
    JPPJ84 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    JPPJ84 said:
    The Russian miniseries is called Liberation https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0198811/?ref_=m_nv_sr_1
    I would be really interested to see how German schools teach the Holocaust and World War 2.  Any insight?
    I honestly don’t know what it’s like today, I don’t know any history teachers or school children. I was born in 84 and our history classes left a lot to be desired when it came to German history in general. A main focus was on the first and Second World War and the politics in between (Weimarer Republik) so of course we learned about the Reichskristallnacht, Anne Frank, the concentration camps, the resistance group white rose, the assassination attempts on Hitler and so on. But I honestly think it should have been more or at least have a wider focus on what it did to the entire world really. It did take a lot of space and rightly so. What bugs me though is that there’s hardly any room for the rest of German history. A bit about Bismarck and the late 19th century and that’s it. Nothing about post war Germany. Again I can only speak for my school time and even only my region. Education is part of regional politics so it could have been very different in other parts of Germany. I honestly think the German-German history is even touchier than the wars. With the wars everyone agrees about the cruelty, the responsibility. Post war German history is a lot more complicated and „personal“ . Boy I hope you understand what I’m trying to say. Even today the inner German division is still in people’s heads, there’s loads of prejudice.
    Why would post world war 2 be so personal?  Are there a lot of people that side with east Germany?

    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 6,400
    I've watched YouTube videos where the narrator stated that the German people were opposed to the Nuremberg Trials, except for the very high ups in German command.  

    Recently some post-war issues have arisen from Poland and Greece...both countries claim Germany owes the reparations...


  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 13,300
    edited June 5
    I've watched YouTube videos where the narrator stated that the German people were opposed to the Nuremberg Trials, except for the very high ups in German command.  

    Recently some post-war issues have arisen from Poland and Greece...both countries claim Germany owes the reparations...


    Saw a documentary way back about the trial that said something similar, maybe the same one. 

    Seems natural. Don't see what could be considered strange about that. So soon after the war ended. The world must have been in chaos the months/years after. Especially for Germany and their psyche


    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
  • JPPJ84JPPJ84 Hamburg, Germany Posts: 277
    edited June 5
    mcgruff10 said:
    JPPJ84 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    JPPJ84 said:
    The Russian miniseries is called Liberation https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0198811/?ref_=m_nv_sr_1
    I would be really interested to see how German schools teach the Holocaust and World War 2.  Any insight?
    I honestly don’t know what it’s like today, I don’t know any history teachers or school children. I was born in 84 and our history classes left a lot to be desired when it came to German history in general. A main focus was on the first and Second World War and the politics in between (Weimarer Republik) so of course we learned about the Reichskristallnacht, Anne Frank, the concentration camps, the resistance group white rose, the assassination attempts on Hitler and so on. But I honestly think it should have been more or at least have a wider focus on what it did to the entire world really. It did take a lot of space and rightly so. What bugs me though is that there’s hardly any room for the rest of German history. A bit about Bismarck and the late 19th century and that’s it. Nothing about post war Germany. Again I can only speak for my school time and even only my region. Education is part of regional politics so it could have been very different in other parts of Germany. I honestly think the German-German history is even touchier than the wars. With the wars everyone agrees about the cruelty, the responsibility. Post war German history is a lot more complicated and „personal“ . Boy I hope you understand what I’m trying to say. Even today the inner German division is still in people’s heads, there’s loads of prejudice.
    Why would post world war 2 be so personal?  Are there a lot of people that side with east Germany?

    It’s not easy to answer that and I couldn’t really speak from my own experience during that time obviously. A main thing is that the division separated families. Half my dads family was in the west, the other half in the east. Funny side story: my parents were in the west when the wall came down. They were visiting an aunt for her birthday and were only allowed to go because they left us with our grandparents. So basically my sister and me were the guarantee they‘d come back and not defect. Can you imagine their panic when the news came late that night?! No one knew what was going to happen. Ok maybe it’s not funny but we do laugh about it today and shake our heads in disbelief.
    Anyways... I don’t think there’s a whole lot of people in the east who want the GDR back. Hell no. What they do want back is their jobs, their social security. Loads of regular workers lost everything because the factories were closed. The system wasn’t self sustainable and it showed once capitalism came. So people left in droves. My home town had a population of 100.000 in 1989, ten years later it was hardly 70.000. One main problem was and still is that it was the better educated people who were leaving, so poverty in the east rose even more. 
    So of course there were and sadly still are a lot of stereotypes. The rich and smart west vs the poor and backwards east. When I went to uni (in the west) one of the first things some dumbass said to me was, „all Ossis (Ost = East) are Nazis, except for you of course, Julie!“ ... like, seriously?! Two weeks ago a guy who I had a date with said he unfortunately can’t date an Ossi girl... wow! So yeah, basically it’s still „we and them“ a lot of the time. Of course I’m not saying everyone still thinks like that but a lot of people do. 
    A lot of my friends make Ossi jokes and most of the time I know how to take it but more often than not it stinks, especially when it’s people I’ve literally met ten minutes ago. 
    Post edited by JPPJ84 on
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 12,418
    I've watched YouTube videos where the narrator stated that the German people were opposed to the Nuremberg Trials, except for the very high ups in German command.  

    Recently some post-war issues have arisen from Poland and Greece...both countries claim Germany owes the reparations...


    If you're really interested in the perspective of ordinary Germans,  this book by Goldhagen is both informative and controversial.  Hitlers Willing Executioners The crux of his argument is that the people were complicit in the atrocities,  which contradicted some narratives of the previous 50 years. It's very academic though. 
    It came out when I was a senior in college, and was immediate required reading.  It was an explosive argument at the time. 


    https://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Willing-Executioners-Ordinary-Holocaust/dp/0679772685/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=hitlers+willing+executioners+by+daniel+goldhagen&qid=1559761122&s=gateway&sprefix=hitlers+&sr=8-1
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 18,974
    JPPJ84 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    JPPJ84 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    JPPJ84 said:
    The Russian miniseries is called Liberation https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0198811/?ref_=m_nv_sr_1
    I would be really interested to see how German schools teach the Holocaust and World War 2.  Any insight?
    I honestly don’t know what it’s like today, I don’t know any history teachers or school children. I was born in 84 and our history classes left a lot to be desired when it came to German history in general. A main focus was on the first and Second World War and the politics in between (Weimarer Republik) so of course we learned about the Reichskristallnacht, Anne Frank, the concentration camps, the resistance group white rose, the assassination attempts on Hitler and so on. But I honestly think it should have been more or at least have a wider focus on what it did to the entire world really. It did take a lot of space and rightly so. What bugs me though is that there’s hardly any room for the rest of German history. A bit about Bismarck and the late 19th century and that’s it. Nothing about post war Germany. Again I can only speak for my school time and even only my region. Education is part of regional politics so it could have been very different in other parts of Germany. I honestly think the German-German history is even touchier than the wars. With the wars everyone agrees about the cruelty, the responsibility. Post war German history is a lot more complicated and „personal“ . Boy I hope you understand what I’m trying to say. Even today the inner German division is still in people’s heads, there’s loads of prejudice.
    Why would post world war 2 be so personal?  Are there a lot of people that side with east Germany?

    It’s not easy to answer that and I couldn’t really speak from my own experience during that time obviously. A main thing is that the division separated families. Half my dads family was in the west, the other half in the east. Funny side story: my parents were in the west when the wall came down. They were visiting an aunt for her birthday and were only allowed to go because they left us with our grandparents. So basically my sister and me were the guarantee they‘d come back and not defect. Can you imagine their panic when the news came late that night?! No one knew what was going to happen. Ok maybe it’s not funny but we do laugh about it today and shake our heads in disbelief.
    Anyways... I don’t think there’s a whole lot of people in the east who want the GDR back. Hell no. What they do want back is their jobs, their social security. Loads of regular workers lost everything because the factories were closed. The system wasn’t self sustainable and it showed once capitalism came. So people left in droves. My home town had a population of 100.000 in 1989, ten years later it was hardly 70.000. One main problem was and still is that it was the better educated people who were leaving, so poverty in the east rose even more. 
    So of course there were and sadly still are a lot of stereotypes. The rich and smart west vs the poor and backwards east. When I went to uni (in the west) one of the first things some dumbass said to me was, „all Ossis (Ost = East) are Nazis, except for you of course, Julie!“ ... like, seriously?! Two weeks ago a guy who I had a date with said he unfortunately can’t date an Ossi girl... wow! So yeah, basically it’s still „we and them“ a lot of the time. Of course I’m not saying everyone still thinks like that but a lot of people do. 
    A lot of my friends make Ossi jokes and most of the time I know how to take it but more often than not it stinks, especially when it’s people I’ve literally met ten minutes ago. 
    So basically people living in the former east Germany are looked down upon because you are portrayed has uneducated and behind the times (you would be the Alabama and Mississippi of the us).  I never knew this, thank you so much for explaining. 
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • JPPJ84JPPJ84 Hamburg, Germany Posts: 277
    mcgruff10 said:
    JPPJ84 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    JPPJ84 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    JPPJ84 said:
    The Russian miniseries is called Liberation https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0198811/?ref_=m_nv_sr_1
    I would be really interested to see how German schools teach the Holocaust and World War 2.  Any insight?
    I honestly don’t know what it’s like today, I don’t know any history teachers or school children. I was born in 84 and our history classes left a lot to be desired when it came to German history in general. A main focus was on the first and Second World War and the politics in between (Weimarer Republik) so of course we learned about the Reichskristallnacht, Anne Frank, the concentration camps, the resistance group white rose, the assassination attempts on Hitler and so on. But I honestly think it should have been more or at least have a wider focus on what it did to the entire world really. It did take a lot of space and rightly so. What bugs me though is that there’s hardly any room for the rest of German history. A bit about Bismarck and the late 19th century and that’s it. Nothing about post war Germany. Again I can only speak for my school time and even only my region. Education is part of regional politics so it could have been very different in other parts of Germany. I honestly think the German-German history is even touchier than the wars. With the wars everyone agrees about the cruelty, the responsibility. Post war German history is a lot more complicated and „personal“ . Boy I hope you understand what I’m trying to say. Even today the inner German division is still in people’s heads, there’s loads of prejudice.
    Why would post world war 2 be so personal?  Are there a lot of people that side with east Germany?

    It’s not easy to answer that and I couldn’t really speak from my own experience during that time obviously. A main thing is that the division separated families. Half my dads family was in the west, the other half in the east. Funny side story: my parents were in the west when the wall came down. They were visiting an aunt for her birthday and were only allowed to go because they left us with our grandparents. So basically my sister and me were the guarantee they‘d come back and not defect. Can you imagine their panic when the news came late that night?! No one knew what was going to happen. Ok maybe it’s not funny but we do laugh about it today and shake our heads in disbelief.
    Anyways... I don’t think there’s a whole lot of people in the east who want the GDR back. Hell no. What they do want back is their jobs, their social security. Loads of regular workers lost everything because the factories were closed. The system wasn’t self sustainable and it showed once capitalism came. So people left in droves. My home town had a population of 100.000 in 1989, ten years later it was hardly 70.000. One main problem was and still is that it was the better educated people who were leaving, so poverty in the east rose even more. 
    So of course there were and sadly still are a lot of stereotypes. The rich and smart west vs the poor and backwards east. When I went to uni (in the west) one of the first things some dumbass said to me was, „all Ossis (Ost = East) are Nazis, except for you of course, Julie!“ ... like, seriously?! Two weeks ago a guy who I had a date with said he unfortunately can’t date an Ossi girl... wow! So yeah, basically it’s still „we and them“ a lot of the time. Of course I’m not saying everyone still thinks like that but a lot of people do. 
    A lot of my friends make Ossi jokes and most of the time I know how to take it but more often than not it stinks, especially when it’s people I’ve literally met ten minutes ago. 
    So basically people living in the former east Germany are looked down upon because you are portrayed has uneducated and behind the times (you would be the Alabama and Mississippi of the us).  I never knew this, thank you so much for explaining. 
    Gerne :) no worries!
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 6,400
    mrussel1 said:
    I've watched YouTube videos where the narrator stated that the German people were opposed to the Nuremberg Trials, except for the very high ups in German command.  

    Recently some post-war issues have arisen from Poland and Greece...both countries claim Germany owes the reparations...


    If you're really interested in the perspective of ordinary Germans,  this book by Goldhagen is both informative and controversial.  Hitlers Willing Executioners The crux of his argument is that the people were complicit in the atrocities,  which contradicted some narratives of the previous 50 years. It's very academic though. 
    It came out when I was a senior in college, and was immediate required reading.  It was an explosive argument at the time. 


    https://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Willing-Executioners-Ordinary-Holocaust/dp/0679772685/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=hitlers+willing+executioners+by+daniel+goldhagen&qid=1559761122&s=gateway&sprefix=hitlers+&sr=8-1
    I was interested enough to watch a few YouTube videos...but personally, the Germans never suffered near what The Jewish people went through or the European Allies of ours.  The one thing I wish the allies had done, was to give West Germany to the Jewish People instead of putting Israel where they did...I think half of Germany would have been a good start to giving Jewish people reparations...but just a start.
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 12,418
    mrussel1 said:
    I've watched YouTube videos where the narrator stated that the German people were opposed to the Nuremberg Trials, except for the very high ups in German command.  

    Recently some post-war issues have arisen from Poland and Greece...both countries claim Germany owes the reparations...


    If you're really interested in the perspective of ordinary Germans,  this book by Goldhagen is both informative and controversial.  Hitlers Willing Executioners The crux of his argument is that the people were complicit in the atrocities,  which contradicted some narratives of the previous 50 years. It's very academic though. 
    It came out when I was a senior in college, and was immediate required reading.  It was an explosive argument at the time. 


    https://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Willing-Executioners-Ordinary-Holocaust/dp/0679772685/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=hitlers+willing+executioners+by+daniel+goldhagen&qid=1559761122&s=gateway&sprefix=hitlers+&sr=8-1
    I was interested enough to watch a few YouTube videos...but personally, the Germans never suffered near what The Jewish people went through or the European Allies of ours.  The one thing I wish the allies had done, was to give West Germany to the Jewish People instead of putting Israel where they did...I think half of Germany would have been a good start to giving Jewish people reparations...but just a start.
    The Jews wanted that land, not Germany.  They were only in Europe because of Diaspora.  
  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 19,617
    My dad left Germany in 1938 and served in WWII after receiving American citizenship and a college education.  Most of his family who stayed behind were killed (he was fortunate to somehow re-unite with his father for a brief period before my grandfather's passing).  He fought as a fucking kid in North Africa and the Battle of Salerno.  By the grace of I don't know what, he not only survived, but relished life and goodwill with gratitude until he died.  No airs about him.

    A fine, loving and funny man whom I'm lucky to have known, let alone have as a father.

    While he didn't receive reparations, his wife did - but that's another story.

    When I visited my fatherland years ago, there wasn't talk at all about the war...almost as if on purpose.  Granted, I also wasn't looking for it...although there were bars that outright made fun of Hitler and his henchmen.  Gave me a chuckle.
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 13,300
    edited June 5
    mrussel1 said:
    I've watched YouTube videos where the narrator stated that the German people were opposed to the Nuremberg Trials, except for the very high ups in German command.  

    Recently some post-war issues have arisen from Poland and Greece...both countries claim Germany owes the reparations...


    If you're really interested in the perspective of ordinary Germans,  this book by Goldhagen is both informative and controversial.  Hitlers Willing Executioners The crux of his argument is that the people were complicit in the atrocities,  which contradicted some narratives of the previous 50 years. It's very academic though. 
    It came out when I was a senior in college, and was immediate required reading.  It was an explosive argument at the time. 


    https://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Willing-Executioners-Ordinary-Holocaust/dp/0679772685/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=hitlers+willing+executioners+by+daniel+goldhagen&qid=1559761122&s=gateway&sprefix=hitlers+&sr=8-1
    I was interested enough to watch a few YouTube videos...but personally, the Germans never suffered near what The Jewish people went through or the European Allies of ours.  The one thing I wish the allies had done, was to give West Germany to the Jewish People instead of putting Israel where they did...I think half of Germany would have been a good start to giving Jewish people reparations...but just a start.
    And the germans living in the west? Maybe for generations? They would just have to move? Just because they suffered "less" and there was some land-giving debt to the jewish community?

    - We're coming for your land! 
    - Why?! Me and Gertrud have lived her for 40 years on our sheep farm? 
    - It says here on this piece of paper, we have suffered more! Now move!

    How about the jews just got their homes back? And if they wanted to move somewhere, they could choose to move.
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 13,300
    hedonist said:
    My dad left Germany in 1938 and served in WWII after receiving American citizenship and a college education.  Most of his family who stayed behind were killed (he was fortunate to somehow re-unite with his father for a brief period before my grandfather's passing).  He fought as a fucking kid in North Africa and the Battle of Salerno.  By the grace of I don't know what, he not only survived, but relished life and goodwill with gratitude until he died.  No airs about him.

    A fine, loving and funny man whom I'm lucky to have known, let alone have as a father.

    While he didn't receive reparations, his wife did - but that's another story.

    When I visited my fatherland years ago, there wasn't talk at all about the war...almost as if on purpose.  Granted, I also wasn't looking for it...although there were bars that outright made fun of Hitler and his henchmen.  Gave me a chuckle.
    Did he talk a lot about his experiences? Or keep them to himself?
    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
  • JPPJ84JPPJ84 Hamburg, Germany Posts: 277
    hedonist said:
    My dad left Germany in 1938 and served in WWII after receiving American citizenship and a college education.  Most of his family who stayed behind were killed (he was fortunate to somehow re-unite with his father for a brief period before my grandfather's passing).  He fought as a fucking kid in North Africa and the Battle of Salerno.  By the grace of I don't know what, he not only survived, but relished life and goodwill with gratitude until he died.  No airs about him.

    A fine, loving and funny man whom I'm lucky to have known, let alone have as a father.

    While he didn't receive reparations, his wife did - but that's another story.

    When I visited my fatherland years ago, there wasn't talk at all about the war...almost as if on purpose.  Granted, I also wasn't looking for it...although there were bars that outright made fun of Hitler and his henchmen.  Gave me a chuckle.
    I’m glad he got out and survived and lived a good life after what must have been hell
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 6,400
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    I've watched YouTube videos where the narrator stated that the German people were opposed to the Nuremberg Trials, except for the very high ups in German command.  

    Recently some post-war issues have arisen from Poland and Greece...both countries claim Germany owes the reparations...


    If you're really interested in the perspective of ordinary Germans,  this book by Goldhagen is both informative and controversial.  Hitlers Willing Executioners The crux of his argument is that the people were complicit in the atrocities,  which contradicted some narratives of the previous 50 years. It's very academic though. 
    It came out when I was a senior in college, and was immediate required reading.  It was an explosive argument at the time. 


    https://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Willing-Executioners-Ordinary-Holocaust/dp/0679772685/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=hitlers+willing+executioners+by+daniel+goldhagen&qid=1559761122&s=gateway&sprefix=hitlers+&sr=8-1
    I was interested enough to watch a few YouTube videos...but personally, the Germans never suffered near what The Jewish people went through or the European Allies of ours.  The one thing I wish the allies had done, was to give West Germany to the Jewish People instead of putting Israel where they did...I think half of Germany would have been a good start to giving Jewish people reparations...but just a start.
    The Jews wanted that land, not Germany.  They were only in Europe because of Diaspora.  
    Then Isreal should learn to stand on its own and learn to cooperate with their neibhours...and why did they want it?  Because they believe their mythical Messiah was from that area...sorry...Israels should have been offered land in Germany.  
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 13,300
    If anyone is interested in another perspective on the rise of Hitler - I read this book while studying film that goes through german cinema between the two wars and tries to show how you could see in the films being made how the German psyche worked and the evolvement of the German people to accept Hitler. Remembering it being interesting... in 2004... time flies:




    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 19,617
    hedonist said:
    My dad left Germany in 1938 and served in WWII after receiving American citizenship and a college education.  Most of his family who stayed behind were killed (he was fortunate to somehow re-unite with his father for a brief period before my grandfather's passing).  He fought as a fucking kid in North Africa and the Battle of Salerno.  By the grace of I don't know what, he not only survived, but relished life and goodwill with gratitude until he died.  No airs about him.

    A fine, loving and funny man whom I'm lucky to have known, let alone have as a father.

    While he didn't receive reparations, his wife did - but that's another story.

    When I visited my fatherland years ago, there wasn't talk at all about the war...almost as if on purpose.  Granted, I also wasn't looking for it...although there were bars that outright made fun of Hitler and his henchmen.  Gave me a chuckle.
    Did he talk a lot about his experiences? Or keep them to himself?
    Only if we asked or it came up organically.  He also worked for the government post-war, so never spoke about that.  But yes, things like the horror of his foxhole-mate being killed in front of him, shooting to kill, being hungry beyond belief (I don't recall his ever leaving an empty plateful of food), missing the basics of home - warmth, bed...missing the love and familiarity of family.

    His story is one of many, over many generations and many wars...all too many.
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 6,400
    mrussel1 said:
    I've watched YouTube videos where the narrator stated that the German people were opposed to the Nuremberg Trials, except for the very high ups in German command.  

    Recently some post-war issues have arisen from Poland and Greece...both countries claim Germany owes the reparations...


    If you're really interested in the perspective of ordinary Germans,  this book by Goldhagen is both informative and controversial.  Hitlers Willing Executioners The crux of his argument is that the people were complicit in the atrocities,  which contradicted some narratives of the previous 50 years. It's very academic though. 
    It came out when I was a senior in college, and was immediate required reading.  It was an explosive argument at the time. 


    https://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Willing-Executioners-Ordinary-Holocaust/dp/0679772685/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=hitlers+willing+executioners+by+daniel+goldhagen&qid=1559761122&s=gateway&sprefix=hitlers+&sr=8-1
    I was interested enough to watch a few YouTube videos...but personally, the Germans never suffered near what The Jewish people went through or the European Allies of ours.  The one thing I wish the allies had done, was to give West Germany to the Jewish People instead of putting Israel where they did...I think half of Germany would have been a good start to giving Jewish people reparations...but just a start.
    And the germans living in the west? Maybe for generations? They would just have to move? Just because they suffered "less" and there was some land-giving debt to the jewish community?

    - We're coming for your land! 
    - Why?! Me and Gertrud have lived her for 40 years on our sheep farm? 
    - It says here on this piece of paper, we have suffered more! Now move!

    How about the jews just got their homes back? And if they wanted to move somewhere, they could choose to move.
    I never said any German would have to move.  It might be uncomfortable living in Jewish dominant region...but so what if a few Germans are uncomfortable...it's not like a New Jewish State with a new government would systematically send Germans to their death.

    I imagine many of the Jewish homes were destroyed during the war...and really if you were Jewish, would you move back?  The leadership, with the help of many Germans, committed mass murder against you.

    When you start 2 World Wars. why should they have been entitled to stay together as a country?


  • JPPJ84JPPJ84 Hamburg, Germany Posts: 277
    mrussel1 said:
    I've watched YouTube videos where the narrator stated that the German people were opposed to the Nuremberg Trials, except for the very high ups in German command.  

    Recently some post-war issues have arisen from Poland and Greece...both countries claim Germany owes the reparations...


    If you're really interested in the perspective of ordinary Germans,  this book by Goldhagen is both informative and controversial.  Hitlers Willing Executioners The crux of his argument is that the people were complicit in the atrocities,  which contradicted some narratives of the previous 50 years. It's very academic though. 
    It came out when I was a senior in college, and was immediate required reading.  It was an explosive argument at the time. 


    https://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Willing-Executioners-Ordinary-Holocaust/dp/0679772685/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=hitlers+willing+executioners+by+daniel+goldhagen&qid=1559761122&s=gateway&sprefix=hitlers+&sr=8-1
    I was interested enough to watch a few YouTube videos...but personally, the Germans never suffered near what The Jewish people went through or the European Allies of ours.  The one thing I wish the allies had done, was to give West Germany to the Jewish People instead of putting Israel where they did...I think half of Germany would have been a good start to giving Jewish people reparations...but just a start.
    And the germans living in the west? Maybe for generations? They would just have to move? Just because they suffered "less" and there was some land-giving debt to the jewish community?

    - We're coming for your land! 
    - Why?! Me and Gertrud have lived her for 40 years on our sheep farm? 
    - It says here on this piece of paper, we have suffered more! Now move!

    How about the jews just got their homes back? And if they wanted to move somewhere, they could choose to move.
    I never said any German would have to move.  It might be uncomfortable living in Jewish dominant region...but so what if a few Germans are uncomfortable...it's not like a New Jewish State with a new government would systematically send Germans to their death.

    I imagine many of the Jewish homes were destroyed during the war...and really if you were Jewish, would you move back?  The leadership, with the help of many Germans, committed mass murder against you.

    When you start 2 World Wars. why should they have been entitled to stay together as a country?


    Not being overly picky here but the First World War started when Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 12,418
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    I've watched YouTube videos where the narrator stated that the German people were opposed to the Nuremberg Trials, except for the very high ups in German command.  

    Recently some post-war issues have arisen from Poland and Greece...both countries claim Germany owes the reparations...


    If you're really interested in the perspective of ordinary Germans,  this book by Goldhagen is both informative and controversial.  Hitlers Willing Executioners The crux of his argument is that the people were complicit in the atrocities,  which contradicted some narratives of the previous 50 years. It's very academic though. 
    It came out when I was a senior in college, and was immediate required reading.  It was an explosive argument at the time. 


    https://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Willing-Executioners-Ordinary-Holocaust/dp/0679772685/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=hitlers+willing+executioners+by+daniel+goldhagen&qid=1559761122&s=gateway&sprefix=hitlers+&sr=8-1
    I was interested enough to watch a few YouTube videos...but personally, the Germans never suffered near what The Jewish people went through or the European Allies of ours.  The one thing I wish the allies had done, was to give West Germany to the Jewish People instead of putting Israel where they did...I think half of Germany would have been a good start to giving Jewish people reparations...but just a start.
    The Jews wanted that land, not Germany.  They were only in Europe because of Diaspora.  
    Then Isreal should learn to stand on its own and learn to cooperate with their neibhours...and why did they want it?  Because they believe their mythical Messiah was from that area...sorry...Israels should have been offered land in Germany.  
    They don't believe the Messiah has returned yet,  but yes they believe it's their ancestral right.  I'm not going to argue for or against a Jewish state,  just saying that the people wanted Jerusalem. 
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 18,974
    JPPJ84 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    I've watched YouTube videos where the narrator stated that the German people were opposed to the Nuremberg Trials, except for the very high ups in German command.  

    Recently some post-war issues have arisen from Poland and Greece...both countries claim Germany owes the reparations...


    If you're really interested in the perspective of ordinary Germans,  this book by Goldhagen is both informative and controversial.  Hitlers Willing Executioners The crux of his argument is that the people were complicit in the atrocities,  which contradicted some narratives of the previous 50 years. It's very academic though. 
    It came out when I was a senior in college, and was immediate required reading.  It was an explosive argument at the time. 


    https://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Willing-Executioners-Ordinary-Holocaust/dp/0679772685/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=hitlers+willing+executioners+by+daniel+goldhagen&qid=1559761122&s=gateway&sprefix=hitlers+&sr=8-1
    I was interested enough to watch a few YouTube videos...but personally, the Germans never suffered near what The Jewish people went through or the European Allies of ours.  The one thing I wish the allies had done, was to give West Germany to the Jewish People instead of putting Israel where they did...I think half of Germany would have been a good start to giving Jewish people reparations...but just a start.
    And the germans living in the west? Maybe for generations? They would just have to move? Just because they suffered "less" and there was some land-giving debt to the jewish community?

    - We're coming for your land! 
    - Why?! Me and Gertrud have lived her for 40 years on our sheep farm? 
    - It says here on this piece of paper, we have suffered more! Now move!

    How about the jews just got their homes back? And if they wanted to move somewhere, they could choose to move.
    I never said any German would have to move.  It might be uncomfortable living in Jewish dominant region...but so what if a few Germans are uncomfortable...it's not like a New Jewish State with a new government would systematically send Germans to their death.

    I imagine many of the Jewish homes were destroyed during the war...and really if you were Jewish, would you move back?  The leadership, with the help of many Germans, committed mass murder against you.

    When you start 2 World Wars. why should they have been entitled to stay together as a country?


    Not being overly picky here but the First World War started when Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia
    That would be true. No real bad guys in world war 1.  

    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 18,974
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    I've watched YouTube videos where the narrator stated that the German people were opposed to the Nuremberg Trials, except for the very high ups in German command.  

    Recently some post-war issues have arisen from Poland and Greece...both countries claim Germany owes the reparations...


    If you're really interested in the perspective of ordinary Germans,  this book by Goldhagen is both informative and controversial.  Hitlers Willing Executioners The crux of his argument is that the people were complicit in the atrocities,  which contradicted some narratives of the previous 50 years. It's very academic though. 
    It came out when I was a senior in college, and was immediate required reading.  It was an explosive argument at the time. 


    https://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Willing-Executioners-Ordinary-Holocaust/dp/0679772685/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=hitlers+willing+executioners+by+daniel+goldhagen&qid=1559761122&s=gateway&sprefix=hitlers+&sr=8-1
    I was interested enough to watch a few YouTube videos...but personally, the Germans never suffered near what The Jewish people went through or the European Allies of ours.  The one thing I wish the allies had done, was to give West Germany to the Jewish People instead of putting Israel where they did...I think half of Germany would have been a good start to giving Jewish people reparations...but just a start.
    The Jews wanted that land, not Germany.  They were only in Europe because of Diaspora.  
    Then Isreal should learn to stand on its own and learn to cooperate with their neibhours...and why did they want it?  Because they believe their mythical Messiah was from that area...sorry...Israels should have been offered land in Germany.  
    They don't believe the Messiah has returned yet,  but yes they believe it's their ancestral right.  I'm not going to argue for or against a Jewish state,  just saying that the people wanted Jerusalem. 
    I feel
    that because of the Holocaust the surviving Jewish people have the right to go wherever the hell they want.  No way they wanted to stay in Europe so to Israel they went.  
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 13,300
    edited June 5
    mcgruff10 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    I've watched YouTube videos where the narrator stated that the German people were opposed to the Nuremberg Trials, except for the very high ups in German command.  

    Recently some post-war issues have arisen from Poland and Greece...both countries claim Germany owes the reparations...


    If you're really interested in the perspective of ordinary Germans,  this book by Goldhagen is both informative and controversial.  Hitlers Willing Executioners The crux of his argument is that the people were complicit in the atrocities,  which contradicted some narratives of the previous 50 years. It's very academic though. 
    It came out when I was a senior in college, and was immediate required reading.  It was an explosive argument at the time. 


    https://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Willing-Executioners-Ordinary-Holocaust/dp/0679772685/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=hitlers+willing+executioners+by+daniel+goldhagen&qid=1559761122&s=gateway&sprefix=hitlers+&sr=8-1
    I was interested enough to watch a few YouTube videos...but personally, the Germans never suffered near what The Jewish people went through or the European Allies of ours.  The one thing I wish the allies had done, was to give West Germany to the Jewish People instead of putting Israel where they did...I think half of Germany would have been a good start to giving Jewish people reparations...but just a start.
    The Jews wanted that land, not Germany.  They were only in Europe because of Diaspora.  
    Then Isreal should learn to stand on its own and learn to cooperate with their neibhours...and why did they want it?  Because they believe their mythical Messiah was from that area...sorry...Israels should have been offered land in Germany.  
    They don't believe the Messiah has returned yet,  but yes they believe it's their ancestral right.  I'm not going to argue for or against a Jewish state,  just saying that the people wanted Jerusalem. 
    I feel
    that because of the Holocaust the surviving Jewish people have the right to go wherever the hell they want.  No way they wanted to stay in Europe so to Israel they went.  
    So if they said "We want iceland" they should have gotten iceland? 


    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
  • cp3iversoncp3iverson Posts: 5,078
    WW2 vets are the most fascinating people to me.  Brave and humble.  

    In May i happened to be at the airport in NOLA (home of the National WW2 Museum).  That day about 100 or so WW2 vets were flown in for an event at the museum.  As they were wheeled/walked down the concourse it was mass applause from everyone in the airport.  Chills man!!!!  They are superheroes to me. 
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 12,418
    WW2 vets are the most fascinating people to me.  Brave and humble.  

    In May i happened to be at the airport in NOLA (home of the National WW2 Museum).  That day about 100 or so WW2 vets were flown in for an event at the museum.  As they were wheeled/walked down the concourse it was mass applause from everyone in the airport.  Chills man!!!!  They are superheroes to me. 
    I mentioned this many moons ago but I think it's worth repeating.  My father died in 93.  He was a Korea vet.  Two of his brothers were still alive and were at the after funeral gathering.  Mike was Army, Battle of the Bulge and captured there by the Germans.  George was a marine and an island hopper.  The neighbor across the street was Polish resistance.  The three of them spent the entire afternoon arguing about who had it worse, recounting their experiences.  I wish I would have recorded it because it was utterly fascinating.  
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 12,418
    mcgruff10 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    I've watched YouTube videos where the narrator stated that the German people were opposed to the Nuremberg Trials, except for the very high ups in German command.  

    Recently some post-war issues have arisen from Poland and Greece...both countries claim Germany owes the reparations...


    If you're really interested in the perspective of ordinary Germans,  this book by Goldhagen is both informative and controversial.  Hitlers Willing Executioners The crux of his argument is that the people were complicit in the atrocities,  which contradicted some narratives of the previous 50 years. It's very academic though. 
    It came out when I was a senior in college, and was immediate required reading.  It was an explosive argument at the time. 


    https://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Willing-Executioners-Ordinary-Holocaust/dp/0679772685/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=hitlers+willing+executioners+by+daniel+goldhagen&qid=1559761122&s=gateway&sprefix=hitlers+&sr=8-1
    I was interested enough to watch a few YouTube videos...but personally, the Germans never suffered near what The Jewish people went through or the European Allies of ours.  The one thing I wish the allies had done, was to give West Germany to the Jewish People instead of putting Israel where they did...I think half of Germany would have been a good start to giving Jewish people reparations...but just a start.
    The Jews wanted that land, not Germany.  They were only in Europe because of Diaspora.  
    Then Isreal should learn to stand on its own and learn to cooperate with their neibhours...and why did they want it?  Because they believe their mythical Messiah was from that area...sorry...Israels should have been offered land in Germany.  
    They don't believe the Messiah has returned yet,  but yes they believe it's their ancestral right.  I'm not going to argue for or against a Jewish state,  just saying that the people wanted Jerusalem. 
    I feel
    that because of the Holocaust the surviving Jewish people have the right to go wherever the hell they want.  No way they wanted to stay in Europe so to Israel they went.  
    But they displaced Palestinians, leading us to where we are today.  
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 18,974
    mrussel1 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    I've watched YouTube videos where the narrator stated that the German people were opposed to the Nuremberg Trials, except for the very high ups in German command.  

    Recently some post-war issues have arisen from Poland and Greece...both countries claim Germany owes the reparations...


    If you're really interested in the perspective of ordinary Germans,  this book by Goldhagen is both informative and controversial.  Hitlers Willing Executioners The crux of his argument is that the people were complicit in the atrocities,  which contradicted some narratives of the previous 50 years. It's very academic though. 
    It came out when I was a senior in college, and was immediate required reading.  It was an explosive argument at the time. 


    https://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Willing-Executioners-Ordinary-Holocaust/dp/0679772685/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=hitlers+willing+executioners+by+daniel+goldhagen&qid=1559761122&s=gateway&sprefix=hitlers+&sr=8-1
    I was interested enough to watch a few YouTube videos...but personally, the Germans never suffered near what The Jewish people went through or the European Allies of ours.  The one thing I wish the allies had done, was to give West Germany to the Jewish People instead of putting Israel where they did...I think half of Germany would have been a good start to giving Jewish people reparations...but just a start.
    The Jews wanted that land, not Germany.  They were only in Europe because of Diaspora.  
    Then Isreal should learn to stand on its own and learn to cooperate with their neibhours...and why did they want it?  Because they believe their mythical Messiah was from that area...sorry...Israels should have been offered land in Germany.  
    They don't believe the Messiah has returned yet,  but yes they believe it's their ancestral right.  I'm not going to argue for or against a Jewish state,  just saying that the people wanted Jerusalem. 
    I feel
    that because of the Holocaust the surviving Jewish people have the right to go wherever the hell they want.  No way they wanted to stay in Europe so to Israel they went.  
    But they displaced Palestinians, leading us to where we are today.  
    Yup.  It's a difficult problem with no easy solution.  Even if Israel wasn't created I don't see that section of the world as an example of peace and love.  
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
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