The Ocean. Fishing & Whaling. Sustainable? Illegal? Over fished?

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  • JC29856
    JC29856 Posts: 9,617

    http://www.livestrong.com/article/1011833-better-wildcaught-farmed-fish/

    https://www.weightandwellness.com/resources/articles-and-videos/deli-detective-dishes-fish/

    more info

    Wild-Caught Fish vs. Farm-Raised Fish

    Wild-Caught Fish vs. Farm-Raised Fish

    What exactly are the differences between fish that is wild caught versus fish that is farm raised? A Q&A with Institute of Food Technologists (IFT) President Mary Ellen Camire, PhD, CFS sheds some light on this topic.

    Q: What is the difference between wild-caught and farm-raised fish?
    A: Wild-caught means the fish were caught using nets, hand-lines, divers, or traps.  Farm-raised fish are raised in tanks or enclosures specifically for food.

    Q: How much of what we eat is farm-raised versus wild-caught?
    A: Depending on where you live, the percentage of farm-raised and wild-caught fish can vary greatly.

    Q: What are the most common farmed fish?
    A: In the U.S., the top fish that are farmed are catfish and trout. In the rest of the world, shrimp and salmon are the biggest crops.

    Q: Are farm-raised fish genetically modified?
    A: There are some genetically modified salmon varieties available; but most fish grown for agriculture are produced by traditional breeding methods and are very similar to wild-caught fish. Some farmed fish are just wild fish that are caught and then raised in pens.

    Q: Is there a taste difference between wild-caught and farm-raised fish?
    A: There is not much of a taste difference, but some people notice a difference in texture because farm-raised fish are often fed a slightly different diet.

    Q: Are farm-raised fish as nutritious as wild-caught fish?
    A: Yes. In the wild, fish get Omega-3 fatty acids (the main nutrient in fish) from eating algae, either by eating smaller fish who eat algae or by eating it directly. In farm-raised fish, algae is added directly as a part of their feed.

  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    JC29856 said:
    interesting topic...generally asking? is it better to eat farm or wild caught?
    Or we could ask this question:  Why not just let marine life in the seas recover to a healthy level again instead of trying to impose anthropocentric values on nature yet again?
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • JC29856
    JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    brianlux said:
    JC29856 said:
    interesting topic...generally asking? is it better to eat farm or wild caught?
    Or we could ask this question:  Why not just let marine life in the seas recover to a healthy level again instead of trying to impose anthropocentric values on nature yet again?
    I'm in favor of a commercial fishing moratorium. although it will never happen, if did how long would it take for the seas to recover?
    1 year
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    edited August 2017
    JC29856 said:
    brianlux said:
    JC29856 said:
    interesting topic...generally asking? is it better to eat farm or wild caught?
    Or we could ask this question:  Why not just let marine life in the seas recover to a healthy level again instead of trying to impose anthropocentric values on nature yet again?
    I'm in favor of a commercial fishing moratorium. although it will never happen, if did how long would it take for the seas to recover?
    1 year
    I would love to think both that a moratorium on fishing could happen and if it did that it would only take a year for fish populations to recover.

    There are numerous estimates* by scientist that say that most ocean fish will be seriously depeleted or die off by around 2050.  Why would we allow that to happen.  That's craziness.

    *here are a few from what most would consider reputable sources:
    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/11/061102-seafood-threat.html
    http://www.smithsonianmag.com/videos/category/science/the-ocean-is-running-out-of-fish-heres-the/
    http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20120920-are-we-running-out-of-fish
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1533125/All-seafood-will-run-out-in-2050-say-scientists.html

    and on and on and on.  The evidence and science is all over the place.  We are killing off the oceans and doing little to stop it. 

    I first heard about this, of all places, in the movie "Soylent Green" which I saw in 1973 when it came out 44 years ago.  As sensational as that film was, some of the concepts in that film were based on environmental concerns that have only increased since then.  In one scene, a group of concerned researchers talk about how the oceans are dying.  I wasn't sure what to think of that at the time but then not long afterwards, my sister pointed out that was exactly what Jacques Cousteau and his research team were saying.  That was 44 years ago and we seem to have done little to abate our headlong rush into the wall of extinction of which we will be part of.  If that's our goal, we will achieve it but I say that is insanity.

    This fine folks have given us fair warning:

    Jacques-Yves Cousteau


    Captain Paul Watson


    Dr. Farley Mowat


    Lamya Essemlali


    Post edited by brianlux on
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    Here's a great way to learn more about the problems with farmed fish.  Sea Shepherds are in the second year of a campaign called "Operation Virus Hunter".  If you go to the link and click on "Learn about the problem" and "Read about the campaign" you'll get some excellent information.  And the R/V Martin Sheen (one of the SSCS research vessels) pictured is the vessel my wife wife and I visited in San Francisco Harbor last year.  The crew are enormously dedicated, talented, friendly and well trained folks who are working hard to restore health back to our oceans.

    http://www.seashepherd.org/virus-hunter/



    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    I hate to say it, Brian, but Alexandra Morton is the one I mentioned in my original post. She has no scientific credibility, and many of the claims she has made about spread of disease have been proven false. She then just moves on to another claim. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    On the bright side, it looks likes she has at least stopped calling herself "Dr. Morton". She has no formal education and was granted an honorary degree a few years back, and after that started to call herself "Doctor". Seems to have gotten enough negative feedback on that to have stopped.
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    edited August 2017
    oftenreading said:
    I hate to say it, Brian, but Alexandra Morton is the one I mentioned in my original post. She has no scientific credibility, and many of the claims she has made about spread of disease have been proven false. She then just moves on to another claim. 
    I don't know why you say that and of course we could argue credibility all day long but she's not the only one who has researched this issue.  I'm still continuing my boycott. 

    I'm passionate about the subject of protecting marine life.  I feel good about that and I hope some others will feel the same way but I'm not on a crusade.  I just have things I have to do.  I'd rather not argue about things I'm passionate about there's really not much I can add here. 
    Post edited by brianlux on
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    brianlux said:
    oftenreading said:
    I hate to say it, Brian, but Alexandra Morton is the one I mentioned in my original post. She has no scientific credibility, and many of the claims she has made about spread of disease have been proven false. She then just moves on to another claim. 
    I don't know why you say that and of course we could argue credibility all day long but she's not the only one who has researched this issue.  I'm still continuing my boycott. 

    I'm passionate about the subject of protecting marine life.  I feel good about that and I hope some others will feel the same way but I'm not on a crusade.  I just have things I have to do.  I'd rather not argue about things I'm passionate about there's really not much I can add here. 

    Brian, I said what I said because I believe it to be true. It is probably too complicated to get into here, but there is clear evidence that Ms. Morton misrepresents what data she does have and misunderstands the science involved. She has made a whole series of claims that have been proven to be unfounded. Initially she insisted that Fraser River sockeye were on the verge of extinction due to sea lice from fish farms. This was followed by record returns of Fraser River sockeye. She insisted that pinks would be wiped out be fish farms; again, record returns. She insisted that piscine reovirus was newly introduced to the west coast via farmed fish - it's actually endemic in a huge area off the west coast in salmonids and many non-salmonid fishes.

    I could go on with the list of things she has been (and still is) wrong about. I don't know why you say you don't want to "argue" about topics - why post on AMT if you're not open to debate on issues?

    I am passionate about the ocean, too. I'm also passionate about science. I don't like seeing these false claims being made, both because they detract attention from actual issues, and because it's just plain wrong. This is just another form of "greenwashing".
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • tempo_n_groove
    tempo_n_groove Posts: 41,361
    JC29856 said:
    brianlux said:
    iJC29856 said:
    interesting topic...generally asking? is it better to eat farm or wild caught?
    Or we could ask this question:  Why not just let marine life in the seas recover to a healthy level again instead of trying to impose anthropocentric values on nature yet again?
    I'm in favor of a commercial fishing moratorium. although it will never happen, if did how long would it take for the seas to recover?
    1 year
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/farm-raised-fish-not-free-mercury-pcb-dioxin/

    Don't eat GMO and don't eat farm raised fish.
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    tempo_n_groove said:
    JC29856 said:
    brianlux said:
    iJC29856 said:
    interesting topic...generally asking? is it better to eat farm or wild caught?
    Or we could ask this question:  Why not just let marine life in the seas recover to a healthy level again instead of trying to impose anthropocentric values on nature yet again?
    I'm in favor of a commercial fishing moratorium. although it will never happen, if did how long would it take for the seas to recover?
    1 year
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/farm-raised-fish-not-free-mercury-pcb-dioxin/

    Don't eat GMO and don't eat farm raised fish.
    Perhaps that link should read - all fish in the ocean not free of mercury pcbs dioxin. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • tempo_n_groove
    tempo_n_groove Posts: 41,361
    edited August 2017
    oftenreading said:
    tempo_n_groove said:
    JC29856 said:
    brianlux said:
    iJC29856 said:
    interesting topic...generally asking? is it better to eat farm or wild caught?
    Or we could ask this question:  Why not just let marine life in the seas recover to a healthy level again instead of trying to impose anthropocentric values on nature yet again?
    I'm in favor of a commercial fishing moratorium. although it will never happen, if did how long would it take for the seas to recover?
    1 year
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/farm-raised-fish-not-free-mercury-pcb-dioxin/

    Don't eat GMO and don't eat farm raised fish.
    Perhaps that link should read - all fish in the ocean not free of mercury pcbs dioxin. 
    That's what you came away with from reading that?

    You miss the part about the antibiotics?

  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    As the article linked to says, all fish that grow in the ocean are exposed to these potential toxins. 

    For those of you who eat other commercial meats (chicken, beef, pork, etc) - antibiotic usage in farmed fish is far lower than all of these other industries. Most Canadian farmed salmon does not get antibiotics at any time, and antibiotic usage in Norwegian farmed salmon (the world's largest producer) is essentially nil. Chileans are not that advanced, though. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    "Fishmeal is a highly processed product containing high nitrogen. Fishmeal is a commercailly made fertilizer made from ground fish bones, offal, trimmings and fish manure.

     Fish-meal is used as a soy substitute in many soy-free chicken feeds. It contains very high concentration of purine which forms uric acid and oxidation, and the nitrogen converts to protein. Fishmeal is very cheap and readily available.

    Commercially made Fishmeal may contain high levels of mercury and radiation which can affect the health of chickens and the quality of the eggs and poultry. "


    https://www.rainbowranchfarms.com/dangers-of-fish-meal-and-chickens


    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • PJfanwillneverleave1
    PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    brianlux said:
    Here's a great way to learn more about the problems with farmed fish.  Sea Shepherds are in the second year of a campaign called "Operation Virus Hunter".  If you go to the link and click on "Learn about the problem" and "Read about the campaign" you'll get some excellent information.  And the R/V Martin Sheen (one of the SSCS research vessels) pictured is the vessel my wife wife and I visited in San Francisco Harbor last year.  The crew are enormously dedicated, talented, friendly and well trained folks who are working hard to restore health back to our oceans.

    http://www.seashepherd.org/virus-hunter/




    I finally got around to reading up a little on Sea Shepherd.  (Wiki)  They come off as a little extreme.  I stopped reading after this......

    Sea Shepherd operations have utilized direct, non-lethal tactics including scuttling and disabling whaling vessels at harbor, intervening in Canadian and Namibian seal hunts,[3] shining laser light at whalers,[4][5] throwing bottles of foul-smelling butyric acid onto vessels at sea,[5] boarding of whaling vessels to protest while at sea, and seizure and destruction of drift nets at sea

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Shepherd_Conservation_Society

    I always buy the cheapest fish at the grocery store unless halibut is on sale.

  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
    brianlux said:
    Here's a great way to learn more about the problems with farmed fish.  Sea Shepherds are in the second year of a campaign called "Operation Virus Hunter".  If you go to the link and click on "Learn about the problem" and "Read about the campaign" you'll get some excellent information.  And the R/V Martin Sheen (one of the SSCS research vessels) pictured is the vessel my wife wife and I visited in San Francisco Harbor last year.  The crew are enormously dedicated, talented, friendly and well trained folks who are working hard to restore health back to our oceans.

    http://www.seashepherd.org/virus-hunter/




    I finally got around to reading up a little on Sea Shepherd.  (Wiki)  They come off as a little extreme.  I stopped reading after this......

    Sea Shepherd operations have utilized direct, non-lethal tactics including scuttling and disabling whaling vessels at harbor, intervening in Canadian and Namibian seal hunts,[3] shining laser light at whalers,[4][5] throwing bottles of foul-smelling butyric acid onto vessels at sea,[5] boarding of whaling vessels to protest while at sea, and seizure and destruction of drift nets at sea

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Shepherd_Conservation_Society

    I always buy the cheapest fish at the grocery store unless halibut is on sale.

    When I was a kid, I used to play with the mercury that came out of my broken Etch-a-Sketch. 

    Good luck to us!
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    When I was in junior high my science teacher passed around mercury for us to play with....
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    brianlux said:
    "Fishmeal is a highly processed product containing high nitrogen. Fishmeal is a commercailly made fertilizer made from ground fish bones, offal, trimmings and fish manure.

     Fish-meal is used as a soy substitute in many soy-free chicken feeds. It contains very high concentration of purine which forms uric acid and oxidation, and the nitrogen converts to protein. Fishmeal is very cheap and readily available.

    Commercially made Fishmeal may contain high levels of mercury and radiation which can affect the health of chickens and the quality of the eggs and poultry. "


    https://www.rainbowranchfarms.com/dangers-of-fish-meal-and-chickens

    Not trying to be picky, but what are we to draw from this, Brian? 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    oftenreading said:
    brianlux said:
    "Fishmeal is a highly processed product containing high nitrogen. Fishmeal is a commercailly made fertilizer made from ground fish bones, offal, trimmings and fish manure.

     Fish-meal is used as a soy substitute in many soy-free chicken feeds. It contains very high concentration of purine which forms uric acid and oxidation, and the nitrogen converts to protein. Fishmeal is very cheap and readily available.

    Commercially made Fishmeal may contain high levels of mercury and radiation which can affect the health of chickens and the quality of the eggs and poultry. "


    https://www.rainbowranchfarms.com/dangers-of-fish-meal-and-chickens

    Not trying to be picky, but what are we to draw from this, Brian? 
    Just simply that it all ties together.   Chicken eat fish from over-harvested oceans.  Poisons in the food chain.   A world with 7.5 billion people and we are eating high on the food chain.  Justifications for our eating habits. Jelly fish taking over the dying oceans.  Human induced climate changes. 

    It's easy to get caught up in the little pieces and forget that the whole is in trouble. It's all real and happening and what we do about it will determine what happens next.  I could gloat and say, "Fuck it, I don't care, I'm old enough.  I'll be dead or good as dead by the time the shit hits the fan." 

    But then I think about these kids I know. 
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • tempo_n_groove
    tempo_n_groove Posts: 41,361
    oftenreading said:
    brianlux said:
    "Fishmeal is a highly processed product containing high nitrogen. Fishmeal is a commercailly made fertilizer made from ground fish bones, offal, trimmings and fish manure.

     Fish-meal is used as a soy substitute in many soy-free chicken feeds. It contains very high concentration of purine which forms uric acid and oxidation, and the nitrogen converts to protein. Fishmeal is very cheap and readily available.

    Commercially made Fishmeal may contain high levels of mercury and radiation which can affect the health of chickens and the quality of the eggs and poultry. "


    https://www.rainbowranchfarms.com/dangers-of-fish-meal-and-chickens

    Not trying to be picky, but what are we to draw from this, Brian? 
    Hold on.  I was on a processor that made fishmeal and it was ground up fish that was dried into a powder. Nothing added, that's it.  So it's like taking a fish and putting it in the ground only it's in powder form.  Just like the native americans used to do.

    So I wasn't aware that fishmeal was used to feed chickens.  All we ever used it for was fertilizer.  Only thing we ever found it useful for.

    I'm curious about the claims @brianlux about the fishmeal and the nitrogen.  It's a natural process from what I understand.

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