Labels, yea or nay?

PJfanwillneverleave1

You said:
I'm not sure I understand how or why I need them, PJF.  Personally, I would prefer an accurate description.   For example:  instead of "liberal", "a democratic socialist with a biocentic viewpoint who questions the wisdom of open borders".  Wordier and not so "easy"?  Yes.  More precise?  Vastly

Wordier yes and not always explaining anything, just talk, yes.  A simple label of "liberal" will do to those who understand.

jnimhaoileoin

brianlux said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

brianlux said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

Labels are pretty damn essential when having any discussion about politics. I don't know how it works in your country but parties are identified by labels and it just makes everything a lot easier. In Denmark, the statsminister is from the Venstre party, which literally means Left (though in English they're called the Liberal Party). Nearly every country in Europe has a Socialist party. It's just how things work. 

If we could agree that labels are vague or inaccurate (and I don't know you you do agree with that), then I would ask, what makes labels essential?  Should not something essential and important be precise and thoroughly understood as well?  Do people- or anybody for that matter- fir into a neat and tidy little description? 

And what is the "everything" you mention that labels make easy and why  is it this everything needs to be easy? 

I'm not trying to be belligerent with you, honestly, but I don't understand your argument.

I would have thought it was pretty clear from my answer that I don't think labels are vague or innaccurate. Maybe they are in America but over here things are pretty clear. Firstly, we don't even use the term liberal so have no issues with that. We have left-wing, right-wing and centrist. We have socialists and conservatives. I actually don't understand your argument. Maybe it's a cultural thing. We're big talkers and debaters here in Ireland and people are on average quite knowledgeable about politics and the historical identity of all our parties. We're also pretty good with language so we just don't have a problem using or understanding labels. They make things easier as they allow us to identify with a particular platform and align ourselves to the corresponding politicians or parties. This is how politics has worked for a long time and it works pretty well in Europe. America is weird as socialism is like a dirty word so both parties seem to be conservative and it's often bloody hard to know what either of them stand for

It sounds as though people in Ireland  fit more neatly into a more specifically defined outlook than here in the U.S.  That may be helpful, I don't know, though it sounds a bit unlikely.  Are people really that specifically aligned there... or here for that matter?  I don't think so- at least I hope not.  That would indicate to me a lack of critical thinking. Why accept a narrowly defined view of life, politics, culture, etc?  That seems stifling to me.

"America is weird as socialism is like a dirty word so both parties seem to be conservative and it's often bloody hard to know what either of them stand for."  This, in my opinion, is absolutely true.

I'm afraid you can't really compare Ireland and America, our cultures and politics are just too different for me to explain satisfactorily how things work over here. Also I can only speak for myself and I have stronger views and a greater interest in politics than the average person I suppose. To give you a small inkling into Irish politics, since we gained our independence in 1921, political loyalties have largely been divided between the pro and anti-treaty parties, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. Support for these parties has passed through generations and it still seems likely that one or other of them will always be the majority party in whatever government happens to be in power. Fianna Fáil is Centrist and Fine Gael centre-right. However, we also have Labour and Sinn Féin on the left, as well as two or three other socialist parties. In recent years there has been growing support for independents, which you might perceive to be people searching for someone who more precisely represents their own world view. In reality though, it's mostly about giving the big parties a kick up the arse and worshipping at the altar of parish pump politics. Perhaps the biggest difference between us and America though, is that we generally believe that pretty much all of our politicians want to do their best for the country and there really isn't the same distance between them as there is between American politicians. This is a very very small country, everything is local and we just don't have the same kind of divisions

brianlux

my2hands said:

You gotta read the labels.... Tommy ain't my motherfu...

https://youtu.be/GP7MBdw-14E

LOL.

Yeah, I always read labels on the CAN  (sorry, just got this crazy record!)

brianlux

jnimhaoileoin said:

brianlux said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

brianlux said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

Labels are pretty damn essential when having any discussion about politics. I don't know how it works in your country but parties are identified by labels and it just makes everything a lot easier. In Denmark, the statsminister is from the Venstre party, which literally means Left (though in English they're called the Liberal Party). Nearly every country in Europe has a Socialist party. It's just how things work. 

If we could agree that labels are vague or inaccurate (and I don't know you you do agree with that), then I would ask, what makes labels essential?  Should not something essential and important be precise and thoroughly understood as well?  Do people- or anybody for that matter- fir into a neat and tidy little description? 

And what is the "everything" you mention that labels make easy and why  is it this everything needs to be easy? 

I'm not trying to be belligerent with you, honestly, but I don't understand your argument.

I would have thought it was pretty clear from my answer that I don't think labels are vague or innaccurate. Maybe they are in America but over here things are pretty clear. Firstly, we don't even use the term liberal so have no issues with that. We have left-wing, right-wing and centrist. We have socialists and conservatives. I actually don't understand your argument. Maybe it's a cultural thing. We're big talkers and debaters here in Ireland and people are on average quite knowledgeable about politics and the historical identity of all our parties. We're also pretty good with language so we just don't have a problem using or understanding labels. They make things easier as they allow us to identify with a particular platform and align ourselves to the corresponding politicians or parties. This is how politics has worked for a long time and it works pretty well in Europe. America is weird as socialism is like a dirty word so both parties seem to be conservative and it's often bloody hard to know what either of them stand for

It sounds as though people in Ireland  fit more neatly into a more specifically defined outlook than here in the U.S.  That may be helpful, I don't know, though it sounds a bit unlikely.  Are people really that specifically aligned there... or here for that matter?  I don't think so- at least I hope not.  That would indicate to me a lack of critical thinking. Why accept a narrowly defined view of life, politics, culture, etc?  That seems stifling to me.

"America is weird as socialism is like a dirty word so both parties seem to be conservative and it's often bloody hard to know what either of them stand for."  This, in my opinion, is absolutely true.

I'm afraid you can't really compare Ireland and America, our cultures and politics are just too different for me to explain satisfactorily how things work over here. Also I can only speak for myself and I have stronger views and a greater interest in politics than the average person I suppose. To give you a small inkling into Irish politics, since we gained our independence in 1921, political loyalties have largely been divided between the pro and anti-treaty parties, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. Support for these parties has passed through generations and it still seems likely that one or other of them will always be the majority party in whatever government happens to be in power. Fianna Fáil is Centrist and Fine Gael centre-right. However, we also have Labour and Sinn Féin on the left, as well as two or three other socialist parties. In recent years there has been growing support for independents, which you might perceive to be people searching for someone who more precisely represents their own world view. In reality though, it's mostly about giving the big parties a kick up the arse and worshipping at the altar of parish pump politics. Perhaps the biggest difference between us and America though, is that we generally believe that pretty much all of our politicians want to do their best for the country and there really isn't the same distance between them as there is between American politicians. This is a very very small country, everything is local and we just don't have the same kind of divisions

Compare the two?  Oh, heck no!

One of our main differences: the religious wars.  Americans just pretty much hate every religion that isn't Jesus based.  You guys have that crazy endless Catholic vs Protestant thing.

jnimhaoileoin

brianlux said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

brianlux said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

brianlux said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

Labels are pretty damn essential when having any discussion about politics. I don't know how it works in your country but parties are identified by labels and it just makes everything a lot easier. In Denmark, the statsminister is from the Venstre party, which literally means Left (though in English they're called the Liberal Party). Nearly every country in Europe has a Socialist party. It's just how things work. 

If we could agree that labels are vague or inaccurate (and I don't know you you do agree with that), then I would ask, what makes labels essential?  Should not something essential and important be precise and thoroughly understood as well?  Do people- or anybody for that matter- fir into a neat and tidy little description? 

And what is the "everything" you mention that labels make easy and why  is it this everything needs to be easy? 

I'm not trying to be belligerent with you, honestly, but I don't understand your argument.

I would have thought it was pretty clear from my answer that I don't think labels are vague or innaccurate. Maybe they are in America but over here things are pretty clear. Firstly, we don't even use the term liberal so have no issues with that. We have left-wing, right-wing and centrist. We have socialists and conservatives. I actually don't understand your argument. Maybe it's a cultural thing. We're big talkers and debaters here in Ireland and people are on average quite knowledgeable about politics and the historical identity of all our parties. We're also pretty good with language so we just don't have a problem using or understanding labels. They make things easier as they allow us to identify with a particular platform and align ourselves to the corresponding politicians or parties. This is how politics has worked for a long time and it works pretty well in Europe. America is weird as socialism is like a dirty word so both parties seem to be conservative and it's often bloody hard to know what either of them stand for

It sounds as though people in Ireland  fit more neatly into a more specifically defined outlook than here in the U.S.  That may be helpful, I don't know, though it sounds a bit unlikely.  Are people really that specifically aligned there... or here for that matter?  I don't think so- at least I hope not.  That would indicate to me a lack of critical thinking. Why accept a narrowly defined view of life, politics, culture, etc?  That seems stifling to me.

"America is weird as socialism is like a dirty word so both parties seem to be conservative and it's often bloody hard to know what either of them stand for."  This, in my opinion, is absolutely true.

I'm afraid you can't really compare Ireland and America, our cultures and politics are just too different for me to explain satisfactorily how things work over here. Also I can only speak for myself and I have stronger views and a greater interest in politics than the average person I suppose. To give you a small inkling into Irish politics, since we gained our independence in 1921, political loyalties have largely been divided between the pro and anti-treaty parties, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. Support for these parties has passed through generations and it still seems likely that one or other of them will always be the majority party in whatever government happens to be in power. Fianna Fáil is Centrist and Fine Gael centre-right. However, we also have Labour and Sinn Féin on the left, as well as two or three other socialist parties. In recent years there has been growing support for independents, which you might perceive to be people searching for someone who more precisely represents their own world view. In reality though, it's mostly about giving the big parties a kick up the arse and worshipping at the altar of parish pump politics. Perhaps the biggest difference between us and America though, is that we generally believe that pretty much all of our politicians want to do their best for the country and there really isn't the same distance between them as there is between American politicians. This is a very very small country, everything is local and we just don't have the same kind of divisions

Compare the two?  Oh, heck no!

One of our main differences: the religious wars.  Americans just pretty much hate every religion that isn't Jesus based.  You guys have that crazy endless Catholic vs Protestant thing.

Well of course our Catholic v Protestant thing has absolutely nothing to do with religion and everything to do with 800 years of colonial rule. It just happens that the colonists were Protestant and their descendants Protestant Unionists. It's more the Unionist bit we have a problem with!

brianlux

jnimhaoileoin said:

brianlux said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

brianlux said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

brianlux said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

Labels are pretty damn essential when having any discussion about politics. I don't know how it works in your country but parties are identified by labels and it just makes everything a lot easier. In Denmark, the statsminister is from the Venstre party, which literally means Left (though in English they're called the Liberal Party). Nearly every country in Europe has a Socialist party. It's just how things work. 

If we could agree that labels are vague or inaccurate (and I don't know you you do agree with that), then I would ask, what makes labels essential?  Should not something essential and important be precise and thoroughly understood as well?  Do people- or anybody for that matter- fir into a neat and tidy little description? 

And what is the "everything" you mention that labels make easy and why  is it this everything needs to be easy? 

I'm not trying to be belligerent with you, honestly, but I don't understand your argument.

I would have thought it was pretty clear from my answer that I don't think labels are vague or innaccurate. Maybe they are in America but over here things are pretty clear. Firstly, we don't even use the term liberal so have no issues with that. We have left-wing, right-wing and centrist. We have socialists and conservatives. I actually don't understand your argument. Maybe it's a cultural thing. We're big talkers and debaters here in Ireland and people are on average quite knowledgeable about politics and the historical identity of all our parties. We're also pretty good with language so we just don't have a problem using or understanding labels. They make things easier as they allow us to identify with a particular platform and align ourselves to the corresponding politicians or parties. This is how politics has worked for a long time and it works pretty well in Europe. America is weird as socialism is like a dirty word so both parties seem to be conservative and it's often bloody hard to know what either of them stand for

It sounds as though people in Ireland  fit more neatly into a more specifically defined outlook than here in the U.S.  That may be helpful, I don't know, though it sounds a bit unlikely.  Are people really that specifically aligned there... or here for that matter?  I don't think so- at least I hope not.  That would indicate to me a lack of critical thinking. Why accept a narrowly defined view of life, politics, culture, etc?  That seems stifling to me.

"America is weird as socialism is like a dirty word so both parties seem to be conservative and it's often bloody hard to know what either of them stand for."  This, in my opinion, is absolutely true.

I'm afraid you can't really compare Ireland and America, our cultures and politics are just too different for me to explain satisfactorily how things work over here. Also I can only speak for myself and I have stronger views and a greater interest in politics than the average person I suppose. To give you a small inkling into Irish politics, since we gained our independence in 1921, political loyalties have largely been divided between the pro and anti-treaty parties, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. Support for these parties has passed through generations and it still seems likely that one or other of them will always be the majority party in whatever government happens to be in power. Fianna Fáil is Centrist and Fine Gael centre-right. However, we also have Labour and Sinn Féin on the left, as well as two or three other socialist parties. In recent years there has been growing support for independents, which you might perceive to be people searching for someone who more precisely represents their own world view. In reality though, it's mostly about giving the big parties a kick up the arse and worshipping at the altar of parish pump politics. Perhaps the biggest difference between us and America though, is that we generally believe that pretty much all of our politicians want to do their best for the country and there really isn't the same distance between them as there is between American politicians. This is a very very small country, everything is local and we just don't have the same kind of divisions

Compare the two?  Oh, heck no!

One of our main differences: the religious wars.  Americans just pretty much hate every religion that isn't Jesus based.  You guys have that crazy endless Catholic vs Protestant thing.

Well of course our Catholic v Protestant thing has absolutely nothing to do with religion and everything to do with 800 years of colonial rule. It just happens that the colonists were Protestant and their descendants Protestant Unionists. It's more the Unionist bit we have a problem with!

Well, at least some good music came out of all that (thinking back to seeing U2 during their "War" tour.  I've often wondered if Bono's climbing stage scaffolding was a role model for Ed?!)

Go Beavers

jnimhaoileoin said:

brianlux said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

brianlux said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

brianlux said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

Labels are pretty damn essential when having any discussion about politics. I don't know how it works in your country but parties are identified by labels and it just makes everything a lot easier. In Denmark, the statsminister is from the Venstre party, which literally means Left (though in English they're called the Liberal Party). Nearly every country in Europe has a Socialist party. It's just how things work. 

If we could agree that labels are vague or inaccurate (and I don't know you you do agree with that), then I would ask, what makes labels essential?  Should not something essential and important be precise and thoroughly understood as well?  Do people- or anybody for that matter- fir into a neat and tidy little description? 

And what is the "everything" you mention that labels make easy and why  is it this everything needs to be easy? 

I'm not trying to be belligerent with you, honestly, but I don't understand your argument.

I would have thought it was pretty clear from my answer that I don't think labels are vague or innaccurate. Maybe they are in America but over here things are pretty clear. Firstly, we don't even use the term liberal so have no issues with that. We have left-wing, right-wing and centrist. We have socialists and conservatives. I actually don't understand your argument. Maybe it's a cultural thing. We're big talkers and debaters here in Ireland and people are on average quite knowledgeable about politics and the historical identity of all our parties. We're also pretty good with language so we just don't have a problem using or understanding labels. They make things easier as they allow us to identify with a particular platform and align ourselves to the corresponding politicians or parties. This is how politics has worked for a long time and it works pretty well in Europe. America is weird as socialism is like a dirty word so both parties seem to be conservative and it's often bloody hard to know what either of them stand for

It sounds as though people in Ireland  fit more neatly into a more specifically defined outlook than here in the U.S.  That may be helpful, I don't know, though it sounds a bit unlikely.  Are people really that specifically aligned there... or here for that matter?  I don't think so- at least I hope not.  That would indicate to me a lack of critical thinking. Why accept a narrowly defined view of life, politics, culture, etc?  That seems stifling to me.

"America is weird as socialism is like a dirty word so both parties seem to be conservative and it's often bloody hard to know what either of them stand for."  This, in my opinion, is absolutely true.

I'm afraid you can't really compare Ireland and America, our cultures and politics are just too different for me to explain satisfactorily how things work over here. Also I can only speak for myself and I have stronger views and a greater interest in politics than the average person I suppose. To give you a small inkling into Irish politics, since we gained our independence in 1921, political loyalties have largely been divided between the pro and anti-treaty parties, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. Support for these parties has passed through generations and it still seems likely that one or other of them will always be the majority party in whatever government happens to be in power. Fianna Fáil is Centrist and Fine Gael centre-right. However, we also have Labour and Sinn Féin on the left, as well as two or three other socialist parties. In recent years there has been growing support for independents, which you might perceive to be people searching for someone who more precisely represents their own world view. In reality though, it's mostly about giving the big parties a kick up the arse and worshipping at the altar of parish pump politics. Perhaps the biggest difference between us and America though, is that we generally believe that pretty much all of our politicians want to do their best for the country and there really isn't the same distance between them as there is between American politicians. This is a very very small country, everything is local and we just don't have the same kind of divisions

Compare the two?  Oh, heck no!

One of our main differences: the religious wars.  Americans just pretty much hate every religion that isn't Jesus based.  You guys have that crazy endless Catholic vs Protestant thing.

Well of course our Catholic v Protestant thing has absolutely nothing to do with religion and everything to do with 800 years of colonial rule. It just happens that the colonists were Protestant and their descendants Protestant Unionists. It's more the Unionist bit we have a problem with!

So you're saying the terrorism wasn't motivated by an actual religion, but something else? Hmmmm...

rgambs

brianlux said:

rgambs said:

I'm actually in the pro-label camp.
I'm a language guy and the way I see it, labels make conversation much easier.
No, they don't always fit, but usually there is something pretty close, especially if you combine a few.

I too am big on language but that includes being accurate in its usage and that is that main problem I have with (at least here in the U.S.) the use of labels.  For example, most people see meas a "liberal" or even a bit "radical" but in all honesty, I see myself as being as much conservative as either of those.  But conservative with respect to what?  Well, the true meaning of the word, of course, as well as toward being pro conservation.   See what I mean?

Haha I should have known you would take it there! You are right, we are the true conservatives, you have said it before and I agree wholeheartedly.
In that way, the labels that adhere to us are entirely faulty, and I think that is probably the case with most labels.  They are not accurate or precise, and they have glaring holes and/or redundancies and contradictions.
I'm still pro lol
They just make things easier, and any decent discussion quickly moves beyond them anyways.

Besides, what fun would it be if you never got to make that point about what is truly conservative again?  No fun, lol

ledvedderman

https://youtu.be/wIiiD-ffxcg

rgambs

dudeman said:

Some people have a desire, maybe even a need, to place others in a particular box. I assume that is so they know how to approach talking to them. I do it too but I see it as problematic. 

Though far fewer, there are also the people who have a need to refuse any sort of label or description at all on the other side of the spectrum.

The part of me that takes long slow sips of Haterade day and night gets annoyed at those people.
That goth girl/boy that raves about being too unique and original to be described...who hangs out with people that act, look, and think just like her/him...

Libertarians

Martians

dignin

Put me down for yea.

PJfanwillneverleave1

This thread is dangerous.  If you've had a few and read the title at first it say Liberals, Yea or nay

dudeman

rgambs said:

dudeman said:

Some people have a desire, maybe even a need, to place others in a particular box. I assume that is so they know how to approach talking to them. I do it too but I see it as problematic. 

Though far fewer, there are also the people who have a need to refuse any sort of label or description at all on the other side of the spectrum.

The part of me that takes long slow sips of Haterade day and night gets annoyed at those people.
That goth girl/boy that raves about being too unique and original to be described...who hangs out with people that act, look, and think just like her/him...

Libertarians

Martians

That's just it: people want to be seen as individuals but in doing so, they unwittingly find themselves in a group of peers. 

With the political parties in the US, though, there are people who don't belong firmly in either. For example, I support gun rights and people probably label me as a right wing gun nut. However, there is not a single other issue that I agree with the right on. Mis-applying labels to those people doesn't do anything good for anyone, even if it seems to make conversations "easier".

rgambs

dudeman said:

rgambs said:

dudeman said:

Some people have a desire, maybe even a need, to place others in a particular box. I assume that is so they know how to approach talking to them. I do it too but I see it as problematic. 

Though far fewer, there are also the people who have a need to refuse any sort of label or description at all on the other side of the spectrum.

The part of me that takes long slow sips of Haterade day and night gets annoyed at those people.
That goth girl/boy that raves about being too unique and original to be described...who hangs out with people that act, look, and think just like her/him...

Libertarians

Martians

That's just it: people want to be seen as individuals but in doing so, they unwittingly find themselves in a group of peers. 

With the political parties in the US, though, there are people who don't belong firmly in either. For example, I support gun rights and people probably label me as a right wing gun nut. However, there is not a single other issue that I agree with the right on. Mis-applying labels to those people doesn't do anything good for anyone, even if it seems to make conversations "easier".

I think most people are similar, there aren't very many people who are really that far away from labels.  It's usually _____ with the exception of ______.

dudeman

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. 

brianlux

rgambs said:

brianlux said:

rgambs said:

I'm actually in the pro-label camp.
I'm a language guy and the way I see it, labels make conversation much easier.
No, they don't always fit, but usually there is something pretty close, especially if you combine a few.

I too am big on language but that includes being accurate in its usage and that is that main problem I have with (at least here in the U.S.) the use of labels.  For example, most people see meas a "liberal" or even a bit "radical" but in all honesty, I see myself as being as much conservative as either of those.  But conservative with respect to what?  Well, the true meaning of the word, of course, as well as toward being pro conservation.   See what I mean?

Haha I should have known you would take it there! You are right, we are the true conservatives, you have said it before and I agree wholeheartedly.
In that way, the labels that adhere to us are entirely faulty, and I think that is probably the case with most labels.  They are not accurate or precise, and they have glaring holes and/or redundancies and contradictions.
I'm still pro lol
They just make things easier, and any decent discussion quickly moves beyond them anyways.

Besides, what fun would it be if you never got to make that point about what is truly conservative again?  No fun, lol

LOL, Right on you radical liberal conservative you!

brianlux

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

This thread is dangerous.  If you've had a few and read the title at first it say Liberals, Yea or nay

If you've had a few and read the thread title wrong you might even get it locked, lol.  Let's not go there. 

brianlux

dudeman said:

rgambs said:

dudeman said:

Some people have a desire, maybe even a need, to place others in a particular box. I assume that is so they know how to approach talking to them. I do it too but I see it as problematic. 

Though far fewer, there are also the people who have a need to refuse any sort of label or description at all on the other side of the spectrum.

The part of me that takes long slow sips of Haterade day and night gets annoyed at those people.
That goth girl/boy that raves about being too unique and original to be described...who hangs out with people that act, look, and think just like her/him...

Libertarians

Martians

That's just it: people want to be seen as individuals but in doing so, they unwittingly find themselves in a group of peers. 

With the political parties in the US, though, there are people who don't belong firmly in either. For example, I support gun rights and people probably label me as a right wing gun nut. However, there is not a single other issue that I agree with the right on. Mis-applying labels to those people doesn't do anything good for anyone, even if it seems to make conversations "easier".

Well said, dudeman! 

It's hard to be an individual but there are certain signs to look for.  Like for example, a dude wearing a Dinosaur Jr t-shirt.  There you go!

hedonist

Well, my first though was that old commercial...

Libby's on the Label

I think many are OK with labels when the labeling from others falls in line with their own labeling of themselves.

For me, I'm all over the place.  I admit it, what's to say?  I try not to limit myself and keep an open mind but of course, fail at times.  As mentioned earlier, common-sense shit, and being true to your own sense of morality, of responsibility.  Someone else wants to define me - read: view - as different than I define myself (and, is that even the truth or just self-perception?), it's usually OK by me, unless it comes from someone I hold in high(er) esteem - someone I'd hope would know my character.

Otherwise, label away!  And hope they don't take the Costanza turn.

(damn you, Whatley)

jnimhaoileoin

By the way, I am very happy to describe myself as an atheistic pacifist with left-wing socialist beliefs. I don't think this in any way makes me less of an individual or impinges upon my ability to think independently. Rather it gives me a sense of identity