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Ok, fess up, which of you goes to college in Madison?

unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
in A Moving Train
https://youtu.be/J8wxl35-Img
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  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    Ridiculous false equivalencies.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    No, it is pointing out more of your hypocrisy.
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    unsung said:

    No, it is pointing out more of your hypocrisy.

    Oh, yeah, because Melania Trump is a protected class of people who have legitimately been discriminated against and abused.

    Another libertarian thought experiment carried out in an intellectual vacuum devoid of the considerations of reality.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • Thirty Bills UnpaidThirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    Which of these fine folk are you Unsung?

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E48QqcTOXeY
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Thirty Bills UnpaidThirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    For the record... the baker that didn't want to bake a wedding cake for the gay couple... the photographer that turns down employment taking pictures at a same sex wedding... that's their choice.

    But with that choice comes consequences: as a heterosexual man... I wouldn't spend a dollar at a bigot's place of business given the choice. I think many others would be the same.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    For the record... the baker that didn't want to bake a wedding cake for the gay couple... the photographer that turns down employment taking pictures at a same sex wedding... that's their choice.

    But with that choice comes consequences: as a heterosexual man... I wouldn't spend a dollar at a bigot's place of business given the choice. I think many others would be the same.

    Totally agree. You should be able to choose to do or not do business with anyone you please for whatever reason, but every action has its consequences.
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    PJPOWER said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    For the record... the baker that didn't want to bake a wedding cake for the gay couple... the photographer that turns down employment taking pictures at a same sex wedding... that's their choice.

    But with that choice comes consequences: as a heterosexual man... I wouldn't spend a dollar at a bigot's place of business given the choice. I think many others would be the same.

    Totally agree. You should be able to choose to do or not do business with anyone you please for whatever reason, but every action has its consequences.
    It isn't that simple though, what happens when an entire region, perhaps the south, decides it won't do business with a certain group, perhaps black people.
    So now American citizens can't buy food or fuel or housing in their own home, because, freedom.
    It's happened before, and if libertarian types had their way, it would happen again.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    edited March 2017
    rgambs said:

    PJPOWER said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    For the record... the baker that didn't want to bake a wedding cake for the gay couple... the photographer that turns down employment taking pictures at a same sex wedding... that's their choice.

    But with that choice comes consequences: as a heterosexual man... I wouldn't spend a dollar at a bigot's place of business given the choice. I think many others would be the same.

    Totally agree. You should be able to choose to do or not do business with anyone you please for whatever reason, but every action has its consequences.
    It isn't that simple though, what happens when an entire region, perhaps the south, decides it won't do business with a certain group, perhaps black people.
    So now American citizens can't buy food or fuel or housing in their own home, because, freedom.
    It's happened before, and if libertarian types had their way, it would happen again.
    A corporation would totally fail (consequences) if they implemented such ridiculous practices. You act as though there are no black business owners in the south...If someone does not have a shirt on, you can refuse to do business with them...it's nothing new. There are a lot of anti discrimination laws in place, but I think that they are sometimes abused by someone being refused for being an asshole and claim they were refused because of x,y,z "discrimination". If a cake company does not want to put two men kissing on a cake, they should be allowed to not offer that service. If a cake company wants to only offer cakes with two men kissing, then they should be able to do so.
    Post edited by PJPOWER on
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 9,085
    rgambs said:

    PJPOWER said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    For the record... the baker that didn't want to bake a wedding cake for the gay couple... the photographer that turns down employment taking pictures at a same sex wedding... that's their choice.

    But with that choice comes consequences: as a heterosexual man... I wouldn't spend a dollar at a bigot's place of business given the choice. I think many others would be the same.

    Totally agree. You should be able to choose to do or not do business with anyone you please for whatever reason, but every action has its consequences.
    It isn't that simple though, what happens when an entire region, perhaps the south, decides it won't do business with a certain group, perhaps black people.
    So now American citizens can't buy food or fuel or housing in their own home, because, freedom.
    It's happened before, and if libertarian types had their way, it would happen again.
    Yup. We had legal discrimination in the past and the free market didn't correct it. It's a question of what kind of society do we want. If you want to ipen a business open to the public, then you can't deny service to someone due to their group status, if they group is a protected group. There's no hypocrisy.
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    PJPOWER said:

    rgambs said:

    PJPOWER said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    For the record... the baker that didn't want to bake a wedding cake for the gay couple... the photographer that turns down employment taking pictures at a same sex wedding... that's their choice.

    But with that choice comes consequences: as a heterosexual man... I wouldn't spend a dollar at a bigot's place of business given the choice. I think many others would be the same.

    Totally agree. You should be able to choose to do or not do business with anyone you please for whatever reason, but every action has its consequences.
    It isn't that simple though, what happens when an entire region, perhaps the south, decides it won't do business with a certain group, perhaps black people.
    So now American citizens can't buy food or fuel or housing in their own home, because, freedom.
    It's happened before, and if libertarian types had their way, it would happen again.
    A corporation would totally fail (consequences) if they implemented such ridiculous practices. You act as though there are no black business owners in the south...If someone does not have a shirt on, you can refuse to do business with them...it's nothing new. There are a lot of anti discrimination laws in place, but I think that they are sometimes abused by someone being refused for being an asshole and claim they were refused because of x,y,z "discrimination". If a cake company does not want to put two men kissing on a cake, they should be allowed to not offer that service. If a cake company wants to only offer cakes with two men kissing, then they should be able to do so.
    Baloney. The market didn't correct Jim Crow and that's a fact.
    It's worth noting that in order to make your cake example hold water, you made the cake feature pornographic images, which is not a realistic scenario.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    Go Beavers said:

    rgambs said:

    PJPOWER said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    For the record... the baker that didn't want to bake a wedding cake for the gay couple... the photographer that turns down employment taking pictures at a same sex wedding... that's their choice.

    But with that choice comes consequences: as a heterosexual man... I wouldn't spend a dollar at a bigot's place of business given the choice. I think many others would be the same.

    Totally agree. You should be able to choose to do or not do business with anyone you please for whatever reason, but every action has its consequences.
    It isn't that simple though, what happens when an entire region, perhaps the south, decides it won't do business with a certain group, perhaps black people.
    So now American citizens can't buy food or fuel or housing in their own home, because, freedom.
    It's happened before, and if libertarian types had their way, it would happen again.
    Yup. We had legal discrimination in the past and the free market didn't correct it. It's a question of what kind of society do we want. If you want to ipen a business open to the public, then you can't deny service to someone due to their group status, if they group is a protected group. There's no hypocrisy.
    I guess it depends on the type of service. If someone opened a business called "Christian Wedding Photography" then they should have the right to refuse to photograph at Muslim ceremonies and vise versa. Race is a whole different thing and an issue of racism vs idealism. I do not believe there should be "whites only" or "black only" businesses...
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    For the record... the baker that didn't want to bake a wedding cake for the gay couple... the photographer that turns down employment taking pictures at a same sex wedding... that's their choice.

    But with that choice comes consequences: as a heterosexual man... I wouldn't spend a dollar at a bigot's place of business given the choice. I think many others would be the same.

    And I agree with this.

    But government should not be fining people for doing so.
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    Go Beavers said:

    rgambs said:

    PJPOWER said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    For the record... the baker that didn't want to bake a wedding cake for the gay couple... the photographer that turns down employment taking pictures at a same sex wedding... that's their choice.

    But with that choice comes consequences: as a heterosexual man... I wouldn't spend a dollar at a bigot's place of business given the choice. I think many others would be the same.

    Totally agree. You should be able to choose to do or not do business with anyone you please for whatever reason, but every action has its consequences.
    It isn't that simple though, what happens when an entire region, perhaps the south, decides it won't do business with a certain group, perhaps black people.
    So now American citizens can't buy food or fuel or housing in their own home, because, freedom.
    It's happened before, and if libertarian types had their way, it would happen again.
    Yup. We had legal discrimination in the past and the free market didn't correct it. It's a question of what kind of society do we want. If you want to ipen a business open to the public, then you can't deny service to someone due to their group status, if they group is a protected group. There's no hypocrisy.
    Society has changed. The market has changed.
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 9,085
    unsung said:

    Go Beavers said:

    rgambs said:

    PJPOWER said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    For the record... the baker that didn't want to bake a wedding cake for the gay couple... the photographer that turns down employment taking pictures at a same sex wedding... that's their choice.

    But with that choice comes consequences: as a heterosexual man... I wouldn't spend a dollar at a bigot's place of business given the choice. I think many others would be the same.

    Totally agree. You should be able to choose to do or not do business with anyone you please for whatever reason, but every action has its consequences.
    It isn't that simple though, what happens when an entire region, perhaps the south, decides it won't do business with a certain group, perhaps black people.
    So now American citizens can't buy food or fuel or housing in their own home, because, freedom.
    It's happened before, and if libertarian types had their way, it would happen again.
    Yup. We had legal discrimination in the past and the free market didn't correct it. It's a question of what kind of society do we want. If you want to ipen a business open to the public, then you can't deny service to someone due to their group status, if they group is a protected group. There's no hypocrisy.
    Society has changed. The market has changed.
    Your evidence that the market has changed to the degree where discriminatory businesses would not last is what?
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 9,085
    PJPOWER said:

    Go Beavers said:

    rgambs said:

    PJPOWER said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    For the record... the baker that didn't want to bake a wedding cake for the gay couple... the photographer that turns down employment taking pictures at a same sex wedding... that's their choice.

    But with that choice comes consequences: as a heterosexual man... I wouldn't spend a dollar at a bigot's place of business given the choice. I think many others would be the same.

    Totally agree. You should be able to choose to do or not do business with anyone you please for whatever reason, but every action has its consequences.
    It isn't that simple though, what happens when an entire region, perhaps the south, decides it won't do business with a certain group, perhaps black people.
    So now American citizens can't buy food or fuel or housing in their own home, because, freedom.
    It's happened before, and if libertarian types had their way, it would happen again.
    Yup. We had legal discrimination in the past and the free market didn't correct it. It's a question of what kind of society do we want. If you want to ipen a business open to the public, then you can't deny service to someone due to their group status, if they group is a protected group. There's no hypocrisy.
    I guess it depends on the type of service. If someone opened a business called "Christian Wedding Photography" then they should have the right to refuse to photograph at Muslim ceremonies and vise versa. Race is a whole different thing and an issue of racism vs idealism. I do not believe there should be "whites only" or "black only" businesses...
    Race is obviously different than religion, but we've decided that both are protected groups. If someone feels like they need to discriminate against groups, then they have to be provate and not open to the public.
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    Go Beavers said:

    unsung said:

    Go Beavers said:

    rgambs said:

    PJPOWER said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    For the record... the baker that didn't want to bake a wedding cake for the gay couple... the photographer that turns down employment taking pictures at a same sex wedding... that's their choice.

    But with that choice comes consequences: as a heterosexual man... I wouldn't spend a dollar at a bigot's place of business given the choice. I think many others would be the same.

    Totally agree. You should be able to choose to do or not do business with anyone you please for whatever reason, but every action has its consequences.
    It isn't that simple though, what happens when an entire region, perhaps the south, decides it won't do business with a certain group, perhaps black people.
    So now American citizens can't buy food or fuel or housing in their own home, because, freedom.
    It's happened before, and if libertarian types had their way, it would happen again.
    Yup. We had legal discrimination in the past and the free market didn't correct it. It's a question of what kind of society do we want. If you want to ipen a business open to the public, then you can't deny service to someone due to their group status, if they group is a protected group. There's no hypocrisy.
    Society has changed. The market has changed.
    Your evidence that the market has changed to the degree where discriminatory businesses would not last is what?
    So acceptance of different people has not changed from the 60's?

    You still need government to protect you from a baker?



  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 9,085
    unsung said:

    Go Beavers said:

    unsung said:

    Go Beavers said:

    rgambs said:

    PJPOWER said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    For the record... the baker that didn't want to bake a wedding cake for the gay couple... the photographer that turns down employment taking pictures at a same sex wedding... that's their choice.

    But with that choice comes consequences: as a heterosexual man... I wouldn't spend a dollar at a bigot's place of business given the choice. I think many others would be the same.

    Totally agree. You should be able to choose to do or not do business with anyone you please for whatever reason, but every action has its consequences.
    It isn't that simple though, what happens when an entire region, perhaps the south, decides it won't do business with a certain group, perhaps black people.
    So now American citizens can't buy food or fuel or housing in their own home, because, freedom.
    It's happened before, and if libertarian types had their way, it would happen again.
    Yup. We had legal discrimination in the past and the free market didn't correct it. It's a question of what kind of society do we want. If you want to ipen a business open to the public, then you can't deny service to someone due to their group status, if they group is a protected group. There's no hypocrisy.
    Society has changed. The market has changed.
    Your evidence that the market has changed to the degree where discriminatory businesses would not last is what?
    So acceptance of different people has not changed from the 60's?

    You still need government to protect you from a baker?



    Your black and white thinking has you jumping to assumptions. Acceptance has definately changed, just not enough. The protections still need to be in place, as you can see from reaction of trump supporters and bigotry surrounding trump and his policies. But we white guys have it pretty easy, so I guess we can sit back and say it's all good. Heck, we even had a black president.
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    A private business whould be able to refuse service to anyone at any time for any reason.

    The public could then decide on what to do with it.
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    unsung said:

    A private business whould be able to refuse service to anyone at any time for any reason.

    The public could then decide on what to do with it.

    What, like a lynch mob?
    The public elects representatives (diseases/parasites?) to make laws to handle things like this. Those elected parasitic diseases decided that refusing service to certain groups of people is not allowed, because it's bullshit.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 12,529
    i imagine the people OK with denying certain people services are fine with it...until someone denies them service. how would it fly if someone opened a store that denied service to white males? can you imagine the shit storm? yea exactly...
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    rgambs said:

    unsung said:

    A private business whould be able to refuse service to anyone at any time for any reason.

    The public could then decide on what to do with it.

    What, like a lynch mob?
    The public elects representatives (diseases/parasites?) to make laws to handle things like this. Those elected parasitic diseases decided that refusing service to certain groups of people is not allowed, because it's bullshit.
    No, like lefist riots at colleges.
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    edited March 2017
    pjhawks said:

    i imagine the people OK with denying certain people services are fine with it...until someone denies them service. how would it fly if someone opened a store that denied service to white males? can you imagine the shit storm? yea exactly...

    Well we wouldn't protest much because we would be quickly reminded by some feminist of our privilege and patriarchy.
  • CM189191CM189191 Posts: 6,927
    edited March 2017
    ftfm

    Post edited by CM189191 on
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Posts: 10,767
    edited March 2017
    The video was produced by the Allied Defense Fund
    Here is some info as to who and what they are...

    The Southern Poverty Law Center has described the organization as"virulently anti-gay" and an anti-LGBT hate group.

    ADF supports the inclusion of invocations at public meetings and the use of religious displays (such as crosses and other religious monuments) on public lands and in public buildings. The ADF opposes abortion, and believes that healthcare workers have a right to decline participation in the performance of abortions and other practices an individual health worker finds morally objectionable.ADF opposes same-sex marriage and civil unions, as well as adoption by same-sex couples based on their belief that children are best raised by a married mother and father. ADF believes parents should be able to opt their children out of sex education in schools that run counter to a family's religious beliefs.
    Post edited by Bentleyspop on
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487



    Even though that has nothing to do with the responses.
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    unsung said:




    Even though that has nothing to do with the responses.

    It has everything to do with the responses they likely rejected and the footage that wasn't shown which may paint a different picture...The same can be said of videos that paint Trump supporters as racist morons too though
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,367
    I think a small business absolutely should have the right to determine who they do business with. I have a friend who owns a salon, and they keep track of info on their customers. If they no-show twice, they stop taking reservations for them, which virtually means they cant get their hair done there anymore. Seems totally reasonable. But where would you draw the line? Should a Jewish owned bakery be forced to make an Easter cake and write "Jesus is Lord" on it? They should have the right to say no to that too.
    I agree that no one should be turned down for race, but how to you enforce that and give the freedom to make decisions to run the business?
    And I'd rather have a Costco cake at my wedding than a cake from some bakery I had to take to court.
  • Thirty Bills UnpaidThirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    rgambs said:

    PJPOWER said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    For the record... the baker that didn't want to bake a wedding cake for the gay couple... the photographer that turns down employment taking pictures at a same sex wedding... that's their choice.

    But with that choice comes consequences: as a heterosexual man... I wouldn't spend a dollar at a bigot's place of business given the choice. I think many others would be the same.

    Totally agree. You should be able to choose to do or not do business with anyone you please for whatever reason, but every action has its consequences.
    It isn't that simple though, what happens when an entire region, perhaps the south, decides it won't do business with a certain group, perhaps black people.
    So now American citizens can't buy food or fuel or housing in their own home, because, freedom.
    It's happened before, and if libertarian types had their way, it would happen again.
    I see it as they are cutting their own throats.

    In British Columbia, if an openly bigoted shop owner denied his services or products to a gay couple or minority... they would be shamed and placed out of business- not by law, but by social standards.

    There is some legitimacy to your point though. It is becoming obvious that many regions still exist in the dark ages and as such... some groups need protection from such ignorance.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    mace1229 said:

    I think a small business absolutely should have the right to determine who they do business with. I have a friend who owns a salon, and they keep track of info on their customers. If they no-show twice, they stop taking reservations for them, which virtually means they cant get their hair done there anymore. Seems totally reasonable. But where would you draw the line? Should a Jewish owned bakery be forced to make an Easter cake and write "Jesus is Lord" on it? They should have the right to say no to that too.
    I agree that no one should be turned down for race, but how to you enforce that and give the freedom to make decisions to run the business?
    And I'd rather have a Costco cake at my wedding than a cake from some bakery I had to take to court.

    A big part of the problem is that businesses can't just quietly refuse customers and use legitimate excuses, they have to vocalize their discrimination. That's where the rationalisations break down.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • PJfanwillneverleave1PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    edited March 2017
    If a jehova witness comes to your place of business to make a purchase and peddle their word at the same time, would you refuse their entry as you would when they come to your home?
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