Russia's Influence On The American Election

brianlux

Before I make this post, I'd like to qualify somethings that might be mistaken as my intent here:   I don't know for certain what collusion has and hasn't taken place and I'm not posting here to make such an assumption either way.  I know that those of you who feel strongly that Russia colluded with Trump have looked into this topic a lot though perhaps- perhaps- not from all angles. My intent here is NOT to insult, berate, doubt, criticize or disparage any ones beliefs here on this issue.  So please just consider this a thought experiment if nothing else and PLEASE spare me the barbs.  I'm sincere in what I just said here.

So here goes.  Question:  Could the following statement be true or have some merit and is it worthy of some scrutiny rather than being dismissed out right?  I don't know that it an accurate statement, but I do see it as an idea worthy of considering because if there is some truth here, the consequences could have some grave outcomes:

"...The hysteria [over the Russia collusion issue], on the other hand, ought to be a matter of grave concern, because it appears more and more to have been engineered by America’s own intel community, its handmaidens in the Dept of Justice, and the twilight’s last gleamings of the Obama White House, and now it has shoved this country in the direction of war at a time when civilian authority over the US military looks sketchy at best. This country faces manifold other problems that are certain to reduce the national standard of living and disrupt the operations of an excessively complex and dishonest economy, and the last thing America needs is a national war-dance over trumped-up grievances with Russia...

...The obvious lesson in all this huggermugger is that the ends don’t justify the means. I suspect there are basically two routes through this mess. One is that the misdeeds of FBI officers, Department of Justice lawyers, and Intel agency executives get adjudicated by normal means, namely, grand juries and courts. That would have the salutary effect of cleansing government agencies and shoring up what’s left of their credibility at a time when faith in institutions hangs in the balance.

The second route would be for the authorities to ignore any formal response to an evermore self-evident trail of crimes, and to allow all that political energy to be funneled into manufactured hysteria and eventually a phony provocation of war with Russia. Personally, I’d rather see the US government clean house than blow up the world over an engineered hallucination."

Here's the link:  http://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/come-fork-road-take/

josevolution

brianlux said:

Before I make this post, I'd like to qualify somethings that might be mistaken as my intent here:   I don't know for certain what collusion has and hasn't taken place and I'm not posting here to make such an assumption either way.  I know that those of you who feel strongly that Russia colluded with Trump have looked into this topic a lot though perhaps- perhaps- not from all angles. My intent here is NOT to insult, berate, doubt, criticize or disparage any ones beliefs here on this issue.  So please just consider this a thought experiment if nothing else and PLEASE spare me the barbs.  I'm sincere in what I just said here.

So here goes.  Question:  Could the following statement be true or have some merit and is it worthy of some scrutiny rather than being dismissed out right?  I don't know that it an accurate statement, but I do see it as an idea worthy of considering because if there is some truth here, the consequences could have some grave outcomes:

"...The hysteria [over the Russia collusion issue], on the other hand, ought to be a matter of grave concern, because it appears more and more to have been engineered by America’s own intel community, its handmaidens in the Dept of Justice, and the twilight’s last gleamings of the Obama White House, and now it has shoved this country in the direction of war at a time when civilian authority over the US military looks sketchy at best. This country faces manifold other problems that are certain to reduce the national standard of living and disrupt the operations of an excessively complex and dishonest economy, and the last thing America needs is a national war-dance over trumped-up grievances with Russia...

...The obvious lesson in all this huggermugger is that the ends don’t justify the means. I suspect there are basically two routes through this mess. One is that the misdeeds of FBI officers, Department of Justice lawyers, and Intel agency executives get adjudicated by normal means, namely, grand juries and courts. That would have the salutary effect of cleansing government agencies and shoring up what’s left of their credibility at a time when faith in institutions hangs in the balance.

The second route would be for the authorities to ignore any formal response to an evermore self-evident trail of crimes, and to allow all that political energy to be funneled into manufactured hysteria and eventually a phony provocation of war with Russia. Personally, I’d rather see the US government clean house than blow up the world over an engineered hallucination."

Here's the link:  http://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/come-fork-road-take/

I don’t agree with its assessment of how this came about doesn’t even mention the orange bafoon’s campaign at all , the Russians sold him a presidency and he bought & payed for it with our democracy the whole lot of them should be in jail for treason ..

benjs

brianlux said:

Before I make this post, I'd like to qualify somethings that might be mistaken as my intent here:   I don't know for certain what collusion has and hasn't taken place and I'm not posting here to make such an assumption either way.  I know that those of you who feel strongly that Russia colluded with Trump have looked into this topic a lot though perhaps- perhaps- not from all angles. My intent here is NOT to insult, berate, doubt, criticize or disparage any ones beliefs here on this issue.  So please just consider this a thought experiment if nothing else and PLEASE spare me the barbs.  I'm sincere in what I just said here.

So here goes.  Question:  Could the following statement be true or have some merit and is it worthy of some scrutiny rather than being dismissed out right?  I don't know that it an accurate statement, but I do see it as an idea worthy of considering because if there is some truth here, the consequences could have some grave outcomes:

"...The hysteria [over the Russia collusion issue], on the other hand, ought to be a matter of grave concern, because it appears more and more to have been engineered by America’s own intel community, its handmaidens in the Dept of Justice, and the twilight’s last gleamings of the Obama White House, and now it has shoved this country in the direction of war at a time when civilian authority over the US military looks sketchy at best. This country faces manifold other problems that are certain to reduce the national standard of living and disrupt the operations of an excessively complex and dishonest economy, and the last thing America needs is a national war-dance over trumped-up grievances with Russia...

...The obvious lesson in all this huggermugger is that the ends don’t justify the means. I suspect there are basically two routes through this mess. One is that the misdeeds of FBI officers, Department of Justice lawyers, and Intel agency executives get adjudicated by normal means, namely, grand juries and courts. That would have the salutary effect of cleansing government agencies and shoring up what’s left of their credibility at a time when faith in institutions hangs in the balance.

The second route would be for the authorities to ignore any formal response to an evermore self-evident trail of crimes, and to allow all that political energy to be funneled into manufactured hysteria and eventually a phony provocation of war with Russia. Personally, I’d rather see the US government clean house than blow up the world over an engineered hallucination."

Here's the link:  http://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/come-fork-road-take/

Brian,

This seems to be yet another case of certain people (or to generalize, the misinformed, the uneducated, the proud who have lost their ability or willingness to see or participate in reason, the ignorant, and the mentally lazy) being infuriated by the fact that they or their peers may have been targeted by undue thought control. 

I know I come on here always beating the same drum, but I feel people overcomplicate this when there are two realities that people need to come to terms with.

1. Undue thought control today comes from 360 degrees; cares not about your age, gender, political allegiances, etc.; and is only getting more pervasive. To attempt to keep this phenomena at bay and ‘set precedence’ by criminalizing successful undue thought control campaigns is akin to duct taping the titanic. The efforts to break this ship are far plentier than the efforts to keep it sailing.
2. The only effective way to reduce the influence of undue thought control, is to reduce the numbers of the misinformed, the uneducated, the proud who have lost their ability or willingness to see or participate in reason, the ignorant, and the mentally lazy. Until this is resolved, the opportunity for exploitation is just too tempting to those with plenty to gain, and far too much complication in serving ramifications to them.

My concern is that amidst all of the conversation about Russia, no one appears to be demanding a hard look at the people we’ve become. The divisive rhetoric truly harms any efforts to become more aware, too: social and political diversity, when embraced, comes with diversity in perspectives and meaningful, pragmatic debate. That kind of diversity seems to be regularly dissuaded, and the reason for that in my eyes is likely the same reason Russia was likely involved here: the American nation is highly exploitable when they’re divided and not thinking critically.

Halifax2TheMax

More later but this can begin to explain it.

Mueller’s Obstruction Focus Is Likely the Tip of the Iceberg - New York Magazine https://apple.news/AIKnAbIYdRzWNS90laxyQwQ

HughFreakingDillon

benjs said:

brianlux said:

Before I make this post, I'd like to qualify somethings that might be mistaken as my intent here:   I don't know for certain what collusion has and hasn't taken place and I'm not posting here to make such an assumption either way.  I know that those of you who feel strongly that Russia colluded with Trump have looked into this topic a lot though perhaps- perhaps- not from all angles. My intent here is NOT to insult, berate, doubt, criticize or disparage any ones beliefs here on this issue.  So please just consider this a thought experiment if nothing else and PLEASE spare me the barbs.  I'm sincere in what I just said here.

So here goes.  Question:  Could the following statement be true or have some merit and is it worthy of some scrutiny rather than being dismissed out right?  I don't know that it an accurate statement, but I do see it as an idea worthy of considering because if there is some truth here, the consequences could have some grave outcomes:

"...The hysteria [over the Russia collusion issue], on the other hand, ought to be a matter of grave concern, because it appears more and more to have been engineered by America’s own intel community, its handmaidens in the Dept of Justice, and the twilight’s last gleamings of the Obama White House, and now it has shoved this country in the direction of war at a time when civilian authority over the US military looks sketchy at best. This country faces manifold other problems that are certain to reduce the national standard of living and disrupt the operations of an excessively complex and dishonest economy, and the last thing America needs is a national war-dance over trumped-up grievances with Russia...

...The obvious lesson in all this huggermugger is that the ends don’t justify the means. I suspect there are basically two routes through this mess. One is that the misdeeds of FBI officers, Department of Justice lawyers, and Intel agency executives get adjudicated by normal means, namely, grand juries and courts. That would have the salutary effect of cleansing government agencies and shoring up what’s left of their credibility at a time when faith in institutions hangs in the balance.

The second route would be for the authorities to ignore any formal response to an evermore self-evident trail of crimes, and to allow all that political energy to be funneled into manufactured hysteria and eventually a phony provocation of war with Russia. Personally, I’d rather see the US government clean house than blow up the world over an engineered hallucination."

Here's the link:  http://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/come-fork-road-take/

Brian,

This seems to be yet another case of certain people (or to generalize, the misinformed, the uneducated, the proud who have lost their ability or willingness to see or participate in reason, the ignorant, and the mentally lazy) being infuriated by the fact that they or their peers may have been targeted by undue thought control. 

I know I come on here always beating the same drum, but I feel people overcomplicate this when there are two realities that people need to come to terms with.

1. Undue thought control today comes from 360 degrees; cares not about your age, gender, political allegiances, etc.; and is only getting more pervasive. To attempt to keep this phenomena at bay and ‘set precedence’ by criminalizing successful undue thought control campaigns is akin to duct taping the titanic. The efforts to break this ship are far plentier than the efforts to keep it sailing.
2. The only effective way to reduce the influence of undue thought control, is to reduce the numbers of the misinformed, the uneducated, the proud who have lost their ability or willingness to see or participate in reason, the ignorant, and the mentally lazy. Until this is resolved, the opportunity for exploitation is just too tempting to those with plenty to gain, and far too much complication in serving ramifications to them.

My concern is that amidst all of the conversation about Russia, no one appears to be demanding a hard look at the people we’ve become. The divisive rhetoric truly harms any efforts to become more aware, too: social and political diversity, when embraced, comes with diversity in perspectives and meaningful, pragmatic debate. That kind of diversity seems to be regularly dissuaded, and the reason for that in my eyes is likely the same reason Russia was likely involved here: the American nation is highly exploitable when they’re divided and not thinking critically.

I agree with this. how easy (and entertaining) to topple a house of cards when the wind is blowing from within. 

brianlux

benjs said:

brianlux said:

Before I make this post, I'd like to qualify somethings that might be mistaken as my intent here:   I don't know for certain what collusion has and hasn't taken place and I'm not posting here to make such an assumption either way.  I know that those of you who feel strongly that Russia colluded with Trump have looked into this topic a lot though perhaps- perhaps- not from all angles. My intent here is NOT to insult, berate, doubt, criticize or disparage any ones beliefs here on this issue.  So please just consider this a thought experiment if nothing else and PLEASE spare me the barbs.  I'm sincere in what I just said here.

So here goes.  Question:  Could the following statement be true or have some merit and is it worthy of some scrutiny rather than being dismissed out right?  I don't know that it an accurate statement, but I do see it as an idea worthy of considering because if there is some truth here, the consequences could have some grave outcomes:

"...The hysteria [over the Russia collusion issue], on the other hand, ought to be a matter of grave concern, because it appears more and more to have been engineered by America’s own intel community, its handmaidens in the Dept of Justice, and the twilight’s last gleamings of the Obama White House, and now it has shoved this country in the direction of war at a time when civilian authority over the US military looks sketchy at best. This country faces manifold other problems that are certain to reduce the national standard of living and disrupt the operations of an excessively complex and dishonest economy, and the last thing America needs is a national war-dance over trumped-up grievances with Russia...

...The obvious lesson in all this huggermugger is that the ends don’t justify the means. I suspect there are basically two routes through this mess. One is that the misdeeds of FBI officers, Department of Justice lawyers, and Intel agency executives get adjudicated by normal means, namely, grand juries and courts. That would have the salutary effect of cleansing government agencies and shoring up what’s left of their credibility at a time when faith in institutions hangs in the balance.

The second route would be for the authorities to ignore any formal response to an evermore self-evident trail of crimes, and to allow all that political energy to be funneled into manufactured hysteria and eventually a phony provocation of war with Russia. Personally, I’d rather see the US government clean house than blow up the world over an engineered hallucination."

Here's the link:  http://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/come-fork-road-take/

Brian,

This seems to be yet another case of certain people (or to generalize, the misinformed, the uneducated, the proud who have lost their ability or willingness to see or participate in reason, the ignorant, and the mentally lazy) being infuriated by the fact that they or their peers may have been targeted by undue thought control. 

I know I come on here always beating the same drum, but I feel people overcomplicate this when there are two realities that people need to come to terms with.

1. Undue thought control today comes from 360 degrees; cares not about your age, gender, political allegiances, etc.; and is only getting more pervasive. To attempt to keep this phenomena at bay and ‘set precedence’ by criminalizing successful undue thought control campaigns is akin to duct taping the titanic. The efforts to break this ship are far plentier than the efforts to keep it sailing.
2. The only effective way to reduce the influence of undue thought control, is to reduce the numbers of the misinformed, the uneducated, the proud who have lost their ability or willingness to see or participate in reason, the ignorant, and the mentally lazy. Until this is resolved, the opportunity for exploitation is just too tempting to those with plenty to gain, and far too much complication in serving ramifications to them.

My concern is that amidst all of the conversation about Russia, no one appears to be demanding a hard look at the people we’ve become. The divisive rhetoric truly harms any efforts to become more aware, too: social and political diversity, when embraced, comes with diversity in perspectives and meaningful, pragmatic debate. That kind of diversity seems to be regularly dissuaded, and the reason for that in my eyes is likely the same reason Russia was likely involved here: the American nation is highly exploitable when they’re divided and not thinking critically.

I also agree, Ben.  If the American public is duped by thought control,  especially via social media and a popular news media that is more interested in making money than in actually broadcasting objective news, and if we actually support those two processes, we are doomed to continue to be a clusterfuck nation.

Kunstler asserts that the biggest problem is the hysteria over Russian collusion, not the collusion itself.  My concern, as yours seems to assert, is that we as a nation are more prone to finger pointing and ranting about an outside influence (which may well be a factor) than we are in looking at who we've become.  If we don't learn to be critical thinkers and learn to make good choices (Clinton and Trump were not good choices- how on earth did we end up with so narrow a field?) then all the collusion in the world will not match our own corrosion.

My other concern is the assertion Kunstler makes about us driving ourselves into another war.  Wouldn't that just be peachy?

JC29856

josevolution said:

JC29856 said:

JC29856 said:

Every failed election bid from a Democrat from now until kingdom come will be blamed on Russia

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/11/senate-democrats-worry-russia-could-jeopardize-reelection-bids-243645?lo=ap_c1

I thought they would at least wait until the votes were cast and tallied! 

my bad i wasn't supposed to respond to you the troll carry on , hey who will head the HRC investigation Rothstein himself or honest Sessions ...

#nowayjose

Halifax2TheMax

But there aren’t enough dots to connect. Oh, but there are. And not only that, there are still many more to connect. Do you know why? Because dots are like money, you need to follow them, from Russia with love and a PTape, all the way to impeachment. And, well, connecting dots and following the money are fun, fun, fun!

JC29856

It was Kissinger!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuQ0GG94M9o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jAPWsxvNzc

JC29856

JC29856 said:

Inspector General released findings appear to net
FBI Agent Strozok
FBI or DOJ Attorney Page
DOJ Deputy Ohr
Fusion GPS contractor Nellie Ohr (wife of Bruce above, HAM license!)
FBI Counter-Intel Dir Priestap
FBI Deputy Dir McCabe

others that may or may not be netted by IG
DOJ Attys Weissman, Rhee and Zebley
Fusion GPS Glenn Simpson

BIG FISH!
Lynch
Yates
Comey

josev.. do you see Hilliary or HRC above?

josevolution

JC29856 said:

JC29856 said:

Inspector General released findings appear to net
FBI Agent Strozok
FBI or DOJ Attorney Page
DOJ Deputy Ohr
Fusion GPS contractor Nellie Ohr (wife of Bruce above, HAM license!)
FBI Counter-Intel Dir Priestap
FBI Deputy Dir McCabe

others that may or may not be netted by IG
DOJ Attys Weissman, Rhee and Zebley
Fusion GPS Glenn Simpson

BIG FISH!
Lynch
Yates
Comey

josev.. do you see Hilliary or HRC above?

when was this from today ? 

my2hands

nice try... the entire point of that was to show some form of collusion of the "deep state" to support HRC in 2016 and subvert Trump....

mrussel1

my2hands said:

nice try... the entire point of that was to show some form of collusion of the "deep state" to support HRC in 2016 and subvert Trump....

Leave it to a progressive like JC to make that argument... sheesh..  

Go Beavers

my2hands said:

nice try... the entire point of that was to show some form of collusion of the "deep state" to support HRC in 2016 and subvert Trump....

You mean those texts between the fbi agents that they’re grasping at between aren’t proof of deep state? 

mrussel1

Go Beavers said:

my2hands said:

nice try... the entire point of that was to show some form of collusion of the "deep state" to support HRC in 2016 and subvert Trump....

You mean those texts between the fbi agents that they’re grasping at between aren’t proof of deep state? 

Wait a minute? We let FBI agents have opinions? And VOTE?  Next thing you'll tell me is they are human beings and cheat on their spouses..say it isn't so...

JC29856

mrussel1 said:

Go Beavers said:

my2hands said:

nice try... the entire point of that was to show some form of collusion of the "deep state" to support HRC in 2016 and subvert Trump....

You mean those texts between the fbi agents that they’re grasping at between aren’t proof of deep state? 

Wait a minute? We let FBI agents have opinions? And VOTE?  Next thing you'll tell me is they are human beings and cheat on their spouses..say it isn't so...

Super Strzok with the S on his shirt saving democracy!

PS - I am riled up. Trump is a f*cking idiot, is unable to provide a coherent answer.
PS - I CAN'T PULL AWAY, WHAT THE F*CK HAPPENED TO OUR COUNTRY (redacted)??!?!
LP - I don't know. But we'll get it back. ...
SUPER STRZOK TO THE RESCUE!!!!
LP – And maybe you’re meant to stay where you are because you’re meant to protect the country from that menace. (links to NYT article)
PS – ... I can protect our country at many levels, not sure if that helps

dignin

JC29856 said:

mrussel1 said:

Go Beavers said:

my2hands said:

nice try... the entire point of that was to show some form of collusion of the "deep state" to support HRC in 2016 and subvert Trump....

You mean those texts between the fbi agents that they’re grasping at between aren’t proof of deep state? 

Wait a minute? We let FBI agents have opinions? And VOTE?  Next thing you'll tell me is they are human beings and cheat on their spouses..say it isn't so...

Super Strzok with the S on his shirt saving democracy!

PS - I am riled up. Trump is a f*cking idiot, is unable to provide a coherent answer.
PS - I CAN'T PULL AWAY, WHAT THE F*CK HAPPENED TO OUR COUNTRY (redacted)??!?!
LP - I don't know. But we'll get it back. ...
SUPER STRZOK TO THE RESCUE!!!!
LP – And maybe you’re meant to stay where you are because you’re meant to protect the country from that menace. (links to NYT article)
PS – ... I can protect our country at many levels, not sure if that helps

josevolution

JC29856 said:

mrussel1 said:

Go Beavers said:

my2hands said:

nice try... the entire point of that was to show some form of collusion of the "deep state" to support HRC in 2016 and subvert Trump....

You mean those texts between the fbi agents that they’re grasping at between aren’t proof of deep state? 

Wait a minute? We let FBI agents have opinions? And VOTE?  Next thing you'll tell me is they are human beings and cheat on their spouses..say it isn't so...

Super Strzok with the S on his shirt saving democracy!

PS - I am riled up. Trump is a f*cking idiot, is unable to provide a coherent answer.
PS - I CAN'T PULL AWAY, WHAT THE F*CK HAPPENED TO OUR COUNTRY (redacted)??!?!
LP - I don't know. But we'll get it back. ...
SUPER STRZOK TO THE RESCUE!!!!
LP – And maybe you’re meant to stay where you are because you’re meant to protect the country from that menace. (links to NYT article)
PS – ... I can protect our country at many levels, not sure if that helps

So why are these two not in jail with all this evidence damn they are treasonous lol maybe by the end summer ? 

JimmyV

Every American should be asking what the fuck happened to our country. I ask it all the time since November 8th, 2016. These FBI agents are no different.

Halifax2TheMax

JC29856 said:

mrussel1 said:

Go Beavers said:

my2hands said:

nice try... the entire point of that was to show some form of collusion of the "deep state" to support HRC in 2016 and subvert Trump....

You mean those texts between the fbi agents that they’re grasping at between aren’t proof of deep state? 

Wait a minute? We let FBI agents have opinions? And VOTE?  Next thing you'll tell me is they are human beings and cheat on their spouses..say it isn't so...

Super Strzok with the S on his shirt saving democracy!

PS - I am riled up. Trump is a f*cking idiot, is unable to provide a coherent answer.
PS - I CAN'T PULL AWAY, WHAT THE F*CK HAPPENED TO OUR COUNTRY (redacted)??!?!
LP - I don't know. But we'll get it back. ...
SUPER STRZOK TO THE RESCUE!!!!
LP – And maybe you’re meant to stay where you are because you’re meant to protect the country from that menace. (links to NYT article)
PS – ... I can protect our country at many levels, not sure if that helps