So, What Comes Now?

benjs

Mandatory voting for sure, and also mandatory time off of work to vote.

tweedyfanjen

benjs said:

Mandatory voting for sure, and also mandatory time off of work to vote.

This. Why can't it be a national holiday? It used to be a state holiday here in SC but hasn't been for years.

Degeneratefk

tweedyfanjen said:

benjs said:

Mandatory voting for sure, and also mandatory time off of work to vote.

This. Why can't it be a national holiday? It used to be a state holiday here in SC but hasn't been for years.

It's a holiday where I work (which is in soith carolina). But why does it have to be considered a holiday? People should vote regardless. Employers are required to allow employees the opportunity to vote if they work during voting hours.

Go Beavers

tweedyfanjen said:

benjs said:

Mandatory voting for sure, and also mandatory time off of work to vote.

This. Why can't it be a national holiday? It used to be a state holiday here in SC but hasn't been for years.

It should just be vote by mail. Convenient and cheaper.

PJ_Soul

benjs said:

Mandatory voting for sure, and also mandatory time off of work to vote.

The US doesn't have mandatory paid time off work to vote? Geez. That is a legal requirement for employers in Canada.

Degeneratefk

PJ_Soul said:

benjs said:

Mandatory voting for sure, and also mandatory time off of work to vote.

The US doesn't have mandatory paid time off work to vote? Geez. That is a legal requirement for employers in Canada.

It is mandatory that employers give you time off, but I don't think they have to pay you for it.

hedonist

I don't want someone (who may not even get paid time off to vote - which thankfully we do here in CA) to be forced into it and be of the "Fuck you, I don't want to vote" mindset. What would be the penalties for not voting? Isn't exercising your right NOT to vote as important as actually doing it?

I've voted every election since I was eligible, now via absentee ballot, but there are still issues and candidates I pass on altogether.

jeffbr

Go Beavers said:

tweedyfanjen said:

benjs said:

Mandatory voting for sure, and also mandatory time off of work to vote.

This. Why can't it be a national holiday? It used to be a state holiday here in SC but hasn't been for years.

It should just be vote by mail. Convenient and cheaper.

Exactly. I believe you do this in Oregon. We do it this way in Washington. No need for a national holiday. Just mail the ballots to voters and give them a few weeks to go through the issues, tick the boxes, and turn it back in.

jeffbr

hedonist said:

I don't want someone (who may not even get paid time off to vote - which thankfully we do here in CA) to be forced into it and be of the "Fuck you, I don't want to vote" mindset. What would be the penalties for not voting? Isn't exercising your right NOT to vote as important as actually doing it?

I've voted every election since I was eligible, now via absentee ballot, but there are still issues and candidates I pass on altogether.

I'm with you, Hedo. No way I'm in favor of mandatory voting, although I vote every time. I don't want to vote out of fear of a fine or some sort of punishment. I want to vote because I want to participate in our process.

Would mandatory voting mean you are required to vote on all issues and positions? Could you return a blank ballot and have that be an acceptable mandatory vote? When I hear "mandatory" on any government proposal, my initial reaction is "fuck that", and then I may moderate depending on the issue. But mandatory voting? Fuck that.

PJ_Soul

Degeneratefk said:

PJ_Soul said:

benjs said:

Mandatory voting for sure, and also mandatory time off of work to vote.

The US doesn't have mandatory paid time off work to vote? Geez. That is a legal requirement for employers in Canada.

It is mandatory that employers give you time off, but I don't think they have to pay you for it.

I see. Well that's pretty shitty. Many people can't afford to lose any pay.

PJ_Soul

hedonist said:

I don't want someone (who may not even get paid time off to vote - which thankfully we do here in CA) to be forced into it and be of the "Fuck you, I don't want to vote" mindset. What would be the penalties for not voting? Isn't exercising your right NOT to vote as important as actually doing it?

I've voted every election since I was eligible, now via absentee ballot, but there are still issues and candidates I pass on altogether.

It seems to work fine in Australia.
The fines are minor, like $40 or something, but enforced (there is a way request exclusion for various good reasons including religious reasons, for the JWs and what not, but I don't think "I don't feel like it" works, haha). Personally, I can't say I give a shit about people whose reaction would be "fuck you". They are free to spoil their ballot, so it's not like someone stands there with a gun to their heads making sure they actually vote for someone.
Our rights are restricted in all kinds of ways every day of our lives, so I can't say I care about that theory of "we should be free not to vote" either. I don't see why we should all be restricted in all kinds of ways and forced to do all kinds of other things by law, but balk when it comes to voting, which is what makes democracy work. Makes no sense to me at all.

jeffbr

PJ_Soul said:

hedonist said:

I don't want someone (who may not even get paid time off to vote - which thankfully we do here in CA) to be forced into it and be of the "Fuck you, I don't want to vote" mindset. What would be the penalties for not voting? Isn't exercising your right NOT to vote as important as actually doing it?

I've voted every election since I was eligible, now via absentee ballot, but there are still issues and candidates I pass on altogether.

It seems to work fine in Australia.
The fines are minor, like $40 or something, but enforced (there is a way to be excluded for various good reasons including religious reasons, for the JWs). Personally, I can't say I give a shit about people whose reaction would be "fuck you". They are free to spoil their ballot, so it's not like someone stands there with a gun to their heads making sure they actually vote for someone.
Our rights are restricted in all kinds of ways every day of our lives, so I can't say I care about that theory of "we should be free not to vote" either. I don't see why we should all be restricted in all kinds of ways and forced to do all kinds of other things by law, but balk when it comes to voting, which is what makes democracy work. Makes no sense to me at all.

What sort of punishment do you propose for your authoritarian mandatory voting program? Do we get to vote on whether we want to be subjected to mandatory voting, or is that decreed from on high?

PJ_Soul

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

hedonist said:

I don't want someone (who may not even get paid time off to vote - which thankfully we do here in CA) to be forced into it and be of the "Fuck you, I don't want to vote" mindset. What would be the penalties for not voting? Isn't exercising your right NOT to vote as important as actually doing it?

I've voted every election since I was eligible, now via absentee ballot, but there are still issues and candidates I pass on altogether.

It seems to work fine in Australia.
The fines are minor, like $40 or something, but enforced (there is a way to be excluded for various good reasons including religious reasons, for the JWs). Personally, I can't say I give a shit about people whose reaction would be "fuck you". They are free to spoil their ballot, so it's not like someone stands there with a gun to their heads making sure they actually vote for someone.
Our rights are restricted in all kinds of ways every day of our lives, so I can't say I care about that theory of "we should be free not to vote" either. I don't see why we should all be restricted in all kinds of ways and forced to do all kinds of other things by law, but balk when it comes to voting, which is what makes democracy work. Makes no sense to me at all.

What sort of punishment do you propose for your authoritarian mandatory voting program? Do we get to vote on whether we want to be subjected to mandatory voting, or is that decreed from on high?

Hahaha, I expect to see photos of you bearing arms next time you have to pay your taxes, renew your license, complete a census, buy a fishing license, license your dog, or abide by that by-law that prevents you from building that addition to your house.
(to answer your question about punishment, I already answered it in the post you replied to).

jeffbr

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

hedonist said:

I don't want someone (who may not even get paid time off to vote - which thankfully we do here in CA) to be forced into it and be of the "Fuck you, I don't want to vote" mindset. What would be the penalties for not voting? Isn't exercising your right NOT to vote as important as actually doing it?

I've voted every election since I was eligible, now via absentee ballot, but there are still issues and candidates I pass on altogether.

It seems to work fine in Australia.
The fines are minor, like $40 or something, but enforced (there is a way to be excluded for various good reasons including religious reasons, for the JWs). Personally, I can't say I give a shit about people whose reaction would be "fuck you". They are free to spoil their ballot, so it's not like someone stands there with a gun to their heads making sure they actually vote for someone.
Our rights are restricted in all kinds of ways every day of our lives, so I can't say I care about that theory of "we should be free not to vote" either. I don't see why we should all be restricted in all kinds of ways and forced to do all kinds of other things by law, but balk when it comes to voting, which is what makes democracy work. Makes no sense to me at all.

What sort of punishment do you propose for your authoritarian mandatory voting program? Do we get to vote on whether we want to be subjected to mandatory voting, or is that decreed from on high?

Hahaha, I expect to see photos of you bearing arms next time you have to pay your taxes, renew your license, complete a census, buy a fishing license, license your dog, or abide by that by-law that prevents you from building that guest bedroom.
(to answer your question about punishment, I already answered it in the post you replied to).

I saw the $40, but realistically, if there's mandatory voting and one doesn't vote, then one is probably not going to pay that fine. I'm sure there is a something bigger and more meaningful ultimately tied to the offense of not voting. What would you propose for non-payment of the fine? Withholding state benefits? Warrant? Ultimately incarceration? Just trying to gauge how strong the mandate is.

Some of those other things you mentioned are only mandatory if you chose to participate in the activity. I don't have to get a pet license if I don't have a pet. I don't have to get a fishing license if I don't fish. I don't have to get a driver's license if I don't drive. I don't have to get a building permit if I'm not building anything. Hell, I don't even have to pay taxes if my income is low enough. So ultimately I have some control over these things. I think mandatory voting is a backward idea for many reasons. It is counter productive, and being an elitist, the last thing I want is for more stupid people to vote.

PJ_Soul

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

hedonist said:

I don't want someone (who may not even get paid time off to vote - which thankfully we do here in CA) to be forced into it and be of the "Fuck you, I don't want to vote" mindset. What would be the penalties for not voting? Isn't exercising your right NOT to vote as important as actually doing it?

I've voted every election since I was eligible, now via absentee ballot, but there are still issues and candidates I pass on altogether.

It seems to work fine in Australia.
The fines are minor, like $40 or something, but enforced (there is a way to be excluded for various good reasons including religious reasons, for the JWs). Personally, I can't say I give a shit about people whose reaction would be "fuck you". They are free to spoil their ballot, so it's not like someone stands there with a gun to their heads making sure they actually vote for someone.
Our rights are restricted in all kinds of ways every day of our lives, so I can't say I care about that theory of "we should be free not to vote" either. I don't see why we should all be restricted in all kinds of ways and forced to do all kinds of other things by law, but balk when it comes to voting, which is what makes democracy work. Makes no sense to me at all.

What sort of punishment do you propose for your authoritarian mandatory voting program? Do we get to vote on whether we want to be subjected to mandatory voting, or is that decreed from on high?

Hahaha, I expect to see photos of you bearing arms next time you have to pay your taxes, renew your license, complete a census, buy a fishing license, license your dog, or abide by that by-law that prevents you from building that guest bedroom.
(to answer your question about punishment, I already answered it in the post you replied to).

I saw the $40, but realistically, if there's mandatory voting and one doesn't vote, then one is probably not going to pay that fine. I'm sure there is a something bigger and more meaningful ultimately tied to the offense of not voting. What would you propose for non-payment of the fine? Withholding state benefits? Warrant? Ultimately incarceration? Just trying to gauge how strong the mandate is.

Some of those other things you mentioned are only mandatory if you chose to participate in the activity. I don't have to get a pet license if I don't have a pet. I don't have to get a fishing license if I don't fish. I don't have to get a driver's license if I don't drive. I don't have to get a building permit if I'm not building anything. Hell, I don't even have to pay taxes if my income is low enough. So ultimately I have some control over these things. I think mandatory voting is a backward idea for many reasons. It is counter productive, and being an elitist, the last thing I want is for more stupid people to vote.

That would depend on the country doing it. I don't know what the US would hypothetically do. I know that not completing the census is illegal in Canada, and the punishment for that (after several reminders and opportunities to just step up, stop being a stubborn dill-hole, and do it) is a fine up to $500 or 3 months in jail. I would guess the punishment for not voting under such a law would be similar? ... I want to meet the people who choose 3 months in jail over a $500 fine btw, lol. Tough fuckers, I guess.
I dunno, to me it's quite odd that mandatory voting is met with such hostility by some Americans. But that's just me. I believe in the good of the group over the individual, which I think mandatory voting is about, while America is kind of all about the individual (and many Canadians think the same way), so I shouldn't be so surprised that some react the way you do... It's just that, given how many things are actually already mandatory in America (and Canada), I just don't get the logic in drawing the line right there before voting, while democracy is breaking down from low voter turnout. Just makes no sense in my mind.

benjs

hedonist said:

I don't want someone (who may not even get paid time off to vote - which thankfully we do here in CA) to be forced into it and be of the "Fuck you, I don't want to vote" mindset. What would be the penalties for not voting? Isn't exercising your right NOT to vote as important as actually doing it?

I've voted every election since I was eligible, now via absentee ballot, but there are still issues and candidates I pass on altogether.

Even going to the voting station and registering a vote to abstain sends a clear message that you reject the validity of any candidate or issue, but it still is a vote (versus staying home or working as per usual). Isn't an educated and actively engaged populace necessary for a democracy to function? Otherwise, your demographics are skewed by nature of who has time and/or money to afford the break from work/life to vote, who has proximity to voting stations. Non-mandatory voting, to me, justifies being a complacent citizen, and I think that voting in a democracy is more than a right - I feel that it's an obligation, and a necessity for a working system.

hedonist

PJ_Soul said:

hedonist said:

I don't want someone (who may not even get paid time off to vote - which thankfully we do here in CA) to be forced into it and be of the "Fuck you, I don't want to vote" mindset. What would be the penalties for not voting? Isn't exercising your right NOT to vote as important as actually doing it?

I've voted every election since I was eligible, now via absentee ballot, but there are still issues and candidates I pass on altogether.

It seems to work fine in Australia.
The fines are minor, like $40 or something, but enforced (there is a way request exclusion for various good reasons including religious reasons, for the JWs and what not, but I don't think "I don't feel like it" works, haha). Personally, I can't say I give a shit about people whose reaction would be "fuck you". They are free to spoil their ballot, so it's not like someone stands there with a gun to their heads making sure they actually vote for someone.
Our rights are restricted in all kinds of ways every day of our lives, so I can't say I care about that theory of "we should be free not to vote" either. I don't see why we should all be restricted in all kinds of ways and forced to do all kinds of other things by law, but balk when it comes to voting, which is what makes democracy work. Makes no sense to me at all.

I wouldn't presume not voting would solely be about laziness; perhaps some are self-aware to the point of realizing they aren't informed enough to cast a ballot...maybe they just don't give a shit (different from not feeling like it). Because there are some silly laws already in place doesn't mean more should be added to the pile.

amethgr8

Americans need to put our election differences aside and come together as people, friends, community and give this our best and hope our leaders to the same.

PJ_Soul

hedonist said:

PJ_Soul said:

hedonist said:

I don't want someone (who may not even get paid time off to vote - which thankfully we do here in CA) to be forced into it and be of the "Fuck you, I don't want to vote" mindset. What would be the penalties for not voting? Isn't exercising your right NOT to vote as important as actually doing it?

I've voted every election since I was eligible, now via absentee ballot, but there are still issues and candidates I pass on altogether.

It seems to work fine in Australia.
The fines are minor, like $40 or something, but enforced (there is a way request exclusion for various good reasons including religious reasons, for the JWs and what not, but I don't think "I don't feel like it" works, haha). Personally, I can't say I give a shit about people whose reaction would be "fuck you". They are free to spoil their ballot, so it's not like someone stands there with a gun to their heads making sure they actually vote for someone.
Our rights are restricted in all kinds of ways every day of our lives, so I can't say I care about that theory of "we should be free not to vote" either. I don't see why we should all be restricted in all kinds of ways and forced to do all kinds of other things by law, but balk when it comes to voting, which is what makes democracy work. Makes no sense to me at all.

I wouldn't presume not voting would solely be about laziness; perhaps some are self-aware to the point of realizing they aren't informed enough to cast a ballot...maybe they just don't give a shit (different from not feeling like it). Because there are some silly laws already in place doesn't mean more should be added to the pile.

They can spoil their vote if they like. So that solves that problem. As for not being informed... mandatory voting tends to increase voter knowledge.
(but FWIW, it's just a complete guess, but I figure at least 95% of those who don't go vote simply do so out of laziness or total indifference, not because they have a real reason not to).

Free

.

Free

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/38360-trump-in-the-white-house-an-interview-with-noam-chomsky

Trump in the White House: An Interview With Noam Chomsky

PJfanwillneverleave1

Free said:

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/38360-trump-in-the-white-house-an-interview-with-noam-chomsky

Trump in the White House: An Interview With Noam Chomsky

Ok so you read garbage.
On November 8, 2016, Donald Trump managed to pull the biggest upset in US politics by tapping successfully into the anger of white voters and appealing to the lowest inclinations of people in a manner that would have probably impressed Nazi propagandist Joseph Goebbels himself.

What is your point?

Free

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Free said:

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/38360-trump-in-the-white-house-an-interview-with-noam-chomsky

Trump in the White House: An Interview With Noam Chomsky

Ok so you read garbage.
On November 8, 2016, Donald Trump managed to pull the biggest upset in US politics by tapping successfully into the anger of white voters and appealing to the lowest inclinations of people in a manner that would have probably impressed Nazi propagandist Joseph Goebbels himself.

What is your point?

Yeah. The interview. Noam Chomsky. A well known historian and critic. And guess what. He's far from republican.

JC29856

Anyone tuned into grubhub? Execs sell off stock then a ceo hours later sends an email saying that trump supporters should resign.

Ms. Haiku

I think the leaders over the next four years will be artists and writers/journalists. They may not change society, but they remind us of the best of society. (e,g. Hamilton cast, and newspapers that included the story in support of the speech)

bootlegger10

Ms. Haiku said:

I think the leaders over the next four years will be artists and writers/journalists. They may not change society, but they remind us of the best of society. (e,g. Hamilton cast, and newspapers that included the story in support of the speech)

They are the best at being dramatic.

mickeyrat

fewer and fewer people are participating. Because of that , we find ourselves here........

vaggar99

benjs said:

I'm sure I'm not the only one scratching my head trying to think how I estimated the voting sum of those possessing great deals of socioeconomic and political dissent hellbent on not tolerating Clinton (even if it meant Trump), those in admiration of xenophobic, racist, sexist ideals not-so-subtly alluded to by Donald Trump in the form of policy and/or rhetoric, and people who actually believe that a billionaire comfortable with declaring bankruptcy to not repay his word to stakeholders and contracted labourers.

Honestly, what comes now? How do we combat the inherent ideals of white supremacy? The inevitable to-be-self-induced pro-isolationist stances of Trumpian America? The setback to the social fabric by teaching us fear each other and become weak to a bigger person to assuage those fears? As an outsider, I can't help but be dumbfounded by this whole situation - and am incredibly afraid.

I will tell you. Get the Entitled Sexual Predator out of office. It's that simple. Don't let listen to anyone tell you shit like 'the election is over, accept it' or 'give him a chance, let's see what he does'. Absolutely not. The ESP is a sicko and needs to be extracted from highest office of the country.

We will join. We will do this. Do not back down. That's most important right now. The people will prevail

JC29856

JC29856 said:

My 96 year old father knows a man his age who lived through the horrors of Nazi Germany. Pop asked the man, "How did you manage through all of that?" The man said, "We just kept on about the business of living until things got better." They got better. Germany is now a much better place than it was then and I'm guessing a better place than America is now. Can we turn things around in like manner? I'm in.

Agree. Plus you reminded me, at least now we don't have to worry about ww3 or war with Russia Russia Russia.

brianlux

JC29856 said:

JC29856 said:

My 96 year old father knows a man his age who lived through the horrors of Nazi Germany. Pop asked the man, "How did you manage through all of that?" The man said, "We just kept on about the business of living until things got better." They got better. Germany is now a much better place than it was then and I'm guessing a better place than America is now. Can we turn things around in like manner? I'm in.

Agree. Plus you reminded me, at least now we don't have to worry about ww3 or war with Russia Russia Russia.

I don't  worrying for myself about those two things anymore, only for the young.    For me, the fear indoctrination for them both started when I was a kid.  I can remember nuclear war "duck and cover" drills back as far as maybe 1958. 

OH!  That's almost 60 years of indoctrination!  Funny how the years kill the fears.