French PM backs burkini bans as three more towns consider outlawing garments

PJ_Soul

catefrances said:

PJ_Soul said:

catefrances said:

SECURITY CONCERNS??? Are you all aware that BURKINIS were DESIGNED IN AUSTRALIA . It didn't originate in Europe or the Middle East, But in a secular country whose designer, a Lebanese woman, saw it as a way to be inclusive in Australias somewhat dominant beach culture. It was inspired by watching her niece play netball and being dismayed by seeing the young girl having to wear her netball uniform over her traditional Islamic attire... angered at her niece's predicament the designer was moved to design a garment that allowed Muslim women to play sports whilst preserving their personal modesty. In time it morphed into the burkini...so no they are not based on the enslavement of women.

Personally I have no issue with the wearing of the burkini.

The name is so misleading too. Burkas cover the whole body including the face in a sack. "Burkinis" don't. But yes, they are still based on the oppression of women. The whole "modesty/cover up" thing is based on that.

misleading? its just a just a play on words that's all.

some could see the bikini as a symbol of the skinny culture that some women find oppressive and discriminatory. some could look at the scene of a beach in summer and see a never ending meat market where women are objectified, categorised, dismissed as fat, hideous, pillorised for daring to buck the norm of skinny bikini body(12 weeks til summer! are you ready? how to get your bikini body!) and be confident in their own selves by wearing what they want. no matter what women wear in 'our' society they will be judged. the fact that muslim women are seen as the 'other' and that their expression is seen as the more overt makes no difference. it is said that muslim women are oppressed when they wear the burqa, or hijab, or niqab.. that may be so. however, some could say women in western culture are similarly oppressed, yet in a more normalised(albeit reverse way) due to the constant barrage of body shape and weight shaming that goes on.

The two aren't even remotely close to comparable.

mickeyrat

PJ_Soul said:

catefrances said:

PJ_Soul said:

catefrances said:

SECURITY CONCERNS??? Are you all aware that BURKINIS were DESIGNED IN AUSTRALIA . It didn't originate in Europe or the Middle East, But in a secular country whose designer, a Lebanese woman, saw it as a way to be inclusive in Australias somewhat dominant beach culture. It was inspired by watching her niece play netball and being dismayed by seeing the young girl having to wear her netball uniform over her traditional Islamic attire... angered at her niece's predicament the designer was moved to design a garment that allowed Muslim women to play sports whilst preserving their personal modesty. In time it morphed into the burkini...so no they are not based on the enslavement of women.

Personally I have no issue with the wearing of the burkini.

The name is so misleading too. Burkas cover the whole body including the face in a sack. "Burkinis" don't. But yes, they are still based on the oppression of women. The whole "modesty/cover up" thing is based on that.

misleading? its just a just a play on words that's all.

some could see the bikini as a symbol of the skinny culture that some women find oppressive and discriminatory. some could look at the scene of a beach in summer and see a never ending meat market where women are objectified, categorised, dismissed as fat, hideous, pillorised for daring to buck the norm of skinny bikini body(12 weeks til summer! are you ready? how to get your bikini body!) and be confident in their own selves by wearing what they want. no matter what women wear in 'our' society they will be judged. the fact that muslim women are seen as the 'other' and that their expression is seen as the more overt makes no difference. it is said that muslim women are oppressed when they wear the burqa, or hijab, or niqab.. that may be so. however, some could say women in western culture are similarly oppressed, yet in a more normalised(albeit reverse way) due to the constant barrage of body shape and weight shaming that goes on.

The two aren't even remotely close to comparable.

some could argue what Cate described is far more insidious. The psychological corrosion of a sense of self and self-worth for no other reason than greed and profit that begins at an early age and continues throughout a womans life.

PJ_Soul

Comparing bikinis and the position of women in America to the position of women in places where fucking burkas are worn is at best incredible naivety when it comes to just how bad things are for women in some of these places. Not comparable. I am not arguing that there isn't a big issue with body image resulting from culture and media among girls and women in North America, but that is a completely different subject. Let's stick to the subject. This comparison seemed to be used as a way to somehow justify or defend how things are for many Muslim women, almost like a two wrongs make a right kind of case. That is a totally invalid argument.

mickeyrat

so you're saying a woman of faith should just stay home.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

jnimhaoileoin said:

I had assumed the same as others, that the hijab etc were signs of oppression and degrading women. Then I asked my best friend, a Bosnian Muslim, her own views and those of her friends and acquaintances who actually wear them. It's all very well for us to stand in judgement and make assumptions based on our own culture and beliefs but it's quite arrogant of us to do so. In fact, in making such judgements, it may be us who are the oppressors.

Yes my friend spoke of the idea of modesty but she gave me a new perspective on it. To those women who choose to wear these garments of their own free will, they actually see it as a means of empowerment. It gives them control over who they allow to see their body, a gift that they can choose to bestow or deny.

Food for thought

Some Muslim women raised from birth to believe and act a certain way cannot see the problem for what it is.

Just as people buy into magnificent, magical and wonderful gods that they need to placate so that they can assume a spot in the really cool place once this term is over... oppressed women believe they are not oppressed for lack of vision and understanding.

It's like the victim of abuse that thinks they are deserving of the abuse... or the anorexic woman seeing obesity when she looks in the mirror.

mickeyrat

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

I had assumed the same as others, that the hijab etc were signs of oppression and degrading women. Then I asked my best friend, a Bosnian Muslim, her own views and those of her friends and acquaintances who actually wear them. It's all very well for us to stand in judgement and make assumptions based on our own culture and beliefs but it's quite arrogant of us to do so. In fact, in making such judgements, it may be us who are the oppressors.

Yes my friend spoke of the idea of modesty but she gave me a new perspective on it. To those women who choose to wear these garments of their own free will, they actually see it as a means of empowerment. It gives them control over who they allow to see their body, a gift that they can choose to bestow or deny.

Food for thought

Some Muslim women raised from birth to believe and act a certain way cannot see the problem for what it is.

Just as people buy into magnificent, magical and wonderful gods that they need to placate so that they can assume a spot in the really cool place once this term is over... oppressed women believe they are not oppressed for lack of vision and understanding.

It's like the victim of abuse that thinks they are deserving of the abuse... or the anorexic woman seeing obesity when she looks in the mirror.

There's a woman that attends the AA meeting I go to on Saturdays. White middle-aged American born and raised here, grown adult children. At some point in her sobriety she chose to convert to Islam. There is nothing in this woman's demeanor actions or words that suggests to me that she feels oppressed nor is she ignorant much less to the point where she wouldn't recognize oppression were it to exist for her. I should also add she remarried a man from a country , I'm not sure which but is in Arab country.

She drives herself and by all appearances quite happy in her life and choices made.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

mickeyrat said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

I had assumed the same as others, that the hijab etc were signs of oppression and degrading women. Then I asked my best friend, a Bosnian Muslim, her own views and those of her friends and acquaintances who actually wear them. It's all very well for us to stand in judgement and make assumptions based on our own culture and beliefs but it's quite arrogant of us to do so. In fact, in making such judgements, it may be us who are the oppressors.

Yes my friend spoke of the idea of modesty but she gave me a new perspective on it. To those women who choose to wear these garments of their own free will, they actually see it as a means of empowerment. It gives them control over who they allow to see their body, a gift that they can choose to bestow or deny.

Food for thought

Some Muslim women raised from birth to believe and act a certain way cannot see the problem for what it is.

Just as people buy into magnificent, magical and wonderful gods that they need to placate so that they can assume a spot in the really cool place once this term is over... oppressed women believe they are not oppressed for lack of vision and understanding.

It's like the victim of abuse that thinks they are deserving of the abuse... or the anorexic woman seeing obesity when she looks in the mirror.

There's a woman that attends the AA meeting I go to on Saturdays. White middle-aged American born and raised here, grown adult children. At some point in her sobriety she chose to convert to Islam. There is nothing in this woman's demeanor actions or words that suggests to me that she feels oppressed nor is she ignorant much less to the point where she wouldn't recognize oppression were it to exist for her. I should also add she remarried a man from a country , I'm not sure which but is in Arab country.

She drives herself and by all appearances quite happy in her life and choices made.

Ignorance is bliss.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

I was driving through Tim's two or three days ago, and an extended family stood outside it: the men all wore western clothing (Nike shoes, t-shirts and jeans), while the women wore the entire traditional set up.

Ultimately, it is their business... but how have the men come to a place where they feel free to dress as they were, yet the women were not? I can only surmise and the pessimistic side of me felt for those women. The contrast in appearance was significant.

Jason P

Burkini sounds like a side dish at a Greek restaurant

PJ_Soul

mickeyrat said:

so you're saying a woman of faith should just stay home.

Who are you asking?

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Jason P said:

Burkini sounds like a side dish at a Greek restaurant

I think it sounds more like Arthur Fonzarellis cousin from Brooklyn.

jnimhaoileoin

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

mickeyrat said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

I had assumed the same as others, that the hijab etc were signs of oppression and degrading women. Then I asked my best friend, a Bosnian Muslim, her own views and those of her friends and acquaintances who actually wear them. It's all very well for us to stand in judgement and make assumptions based on our own culture and beliefs but it's quite arrogant of us to do so. In fact, in making such judgements, it may be us who are the oppressors.

Yes my friend spoke of the idea of modesty but she gave me a new perspective on it. To those women who choose to wear these garments of their own free will, they actually see it as a means of empowerment. It gives them control over who they allow to see their body, a gift that they can choose to bestow or deny.

Food for thought

Some Muslim women raised from birth to believe and act a certain way cannot see the problem for what it is.

Just as people buy into magnificent, magical and wonderful gods that they need to placate so that they can assume a spot in the really cool place once this term is over... oppressed women believe they are not oppressed for lack of vision and understanding.

It's like the victim of abuse that thinks they are deserving of the abuse... or the anorexic woman seeing obesity when she looks in the mirror.

There's a woman that attends the AA meeting I go to on Saturdays. White middle-aged American born and raised here, grown adult children. At some point in her sobriety she chose to convert to Islam. There is nothing in this woman's demeanor actions or words that suggests to me that she feels oppressed nor is she ignorant much less to the point where she wouldn't recognize oppression were it to exist for her. I should also add she remarried a man from a country , I'm not sure which but is in Arab country.

She drives herself and by all appearances quite happy in her life and choices made.

Ignorance is bliss.

You sound like you're saying that anyone who chooses to be Muslim is ignorant. I really hope not, as that would show a depressing level of both ignorance and arrogance on your own part

Thirty Bills Unpaid

jnimhaoileoin said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

mickeyrat said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

I had assumed the same as others, that the hijab etc were signs of oppression and degrading women. Then I asked my best friend, a Bosnian Muslim, her own views and those of her friends and acquaintances who actually wear them. It's all very well for us to stand in judgement and make assumptions based on our own culture and beliefs but it's quite arrogant of us to do so. In fact, in making such judgements, it may be us who are the oppressors.

Yes my friend spoke of the idea of modesty but she gave me a new perspective on it. To those women who choose to wear these garments of their own free will, they actually see it as a means of empowerment. It gives them control over who they allow to see their body, a gift that they can choose to bestow or deny.

Food for thought

Some Muslim women raised from birth to believe and act a certain way cannot see the problem for what it is.

Just as people buy into magnificent, magical and wonderful gods that they need to placate so that they can assume a spot in the really cool place once this term is over... oppressed women believe they are not oppressed for lack of vision and understanding.

It's like the victim of abuse that thinks they are deserving of the abuse... or the anorexic woman seeing obesity when she looks in the mirror.

There's a woman that attends the AA meeting I go to on Saturdays. White middle-aged American born and raised here, grown adult children. At some point in her sobriety she chose to convert to Islam. There is nothing in this woman's demeanor actions or words that suggests to me that she feels oppressed nor is she ignorant much less to the point where she wouldn't recognize oppression were it to exist for her. I should also add she remarried a man from a country , I'm not sure which but is in Arab country.

She drives herself and by all appearances quite happy in her life and choices made.

Ignorance is bliss.

You sound like you're saying that anyone who chooses to be Muslim is ignorant. I really hope not, as that would show a depressing level of both ignorance and arrogance on your own part

That's not what I meant. I meant to say if they know no other way... everything is cool.

mickeyrat

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

mickeyrat said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

I had assumed the same as others, that the hijab etc were signs of oppression and degrading women. Then I asked my best friend, a Bosnian Muslim, her own views and those of her friends and acquaintances who actually wear them. It's all very well for us to stand in judgement and make assumptions based on our own culture and beliefs but it's quite arrogant of us to do so. In fact, in making such judgements, it may be us who are the oppressors.

Yes my friend spoke of the idea of modesty but she gave me a new perspective on it. To those women who choose to wear these garments of their own free will, they actually see it as a means of empowerment. It gives them control over who they allow to see their body, a gift that they can choose to bestow or deny.

Food for thought

Some Muslim women raised from birth to believe and act a certain way cannot see the problem for what it is.

Just as people buy into magnificent, magical and wonderful gods that they need to placate so that they can assume a spot in the really cool place once this term is over... oppressed women believe they are not oppressed for lack of vision and understanding.

It's like the victim of abuse that thinks they are deserving of the abuse... or the anorexic woman seeing obesity when she looks in the mirror.

There's a woman that attends the AA meeting I go to on Saturdays. White middle-aged American born and raised here, grown adult children. At some point in her sobriety she chose to convert to Islam. There is nothing in this woman's demeanor actions or words that suggests to me that she feels oppressed nor is she ignorant much less to the point where she wouldn't recognize oppression were it to exist for her. I should also add she remarried a man from a country , I'm not sure which but is in Arab country.

She drives herself and by all appearances quite happy in her life and choices made.

Ignorance is bliss.

You sound like you're saying that anyone who chooses to be Muslim is ignorant. I really hope not, as that would show a depressing level of both ignorance and arrogance on your own part

That's not what I meant. I meant to say if they know no other way... everything is cool.

but if they do know and lived so previously as the real person I described?

Jason P

What is the purpose anyway?

Thirty Bills Unpaid

mickeyrat said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

mickeyrat said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

I had assumed the same as others, that the hijab etc were signs of oppression and degrading women. Then I asked my best friend, a Bosnian Muslim, her own views and those of her friends and acquaintances who actually wear them. It's all very well for us to stand in judgement and make assumptions based on our own culture and beliefs but it's quite arrogant of us to do so. In fact, in making such judgements, it may be us who are the oppressors.

Yes my friend spoke of the idea of modesty but she gave me a new perspective on it. To those women who choose to wear these garments of their own free will, they actually see it as a means of empowerment. It gives them control over who they allow to see their body, a gift that they can choose to bestow or deny.

Food for thought

Some Muslim women raised from birth to believe and act a certain way cannot see the problem for what it is.

Just as people buy into magnificent, magical and wonderful gods that they need to placate so that they can assume a spot in the really cool place once this term is over... oppressed women believe they are not oppressed for lack of vision and understanding.

It's like the victim of abuse that thinks they are deserving of the abuse... or the anorexic woman seeing obesity when she looks in the mirror.

There's a woman that attends the AA meeting I go to on Saturdays. White middle-aged American born and raised here, grown adult children. At some point in her sobriety she chose to convert to Islam. There is nothing in this woman's demeanor actions or words that suggests to me that she feels oppressed nor is she ignorant much less to the point where she wouldn't recognize oppression were it to exist for her. I should also add she remarried a man from a country , I'm not sure which but is in Arab country.

She drives herself and by all appearances quite happy in her life and choices made.

Ignorance is bliss.

You sound like you're saying that anyone who chooses to be Muslim is ignorant. I really hope not, as that would show a depressing level of both ignorance and arrogance on your own part

That's not what I meant. I meant to say if they know no other way... everything is cool.

but if they do know and lived so previously as the real person I described?

Then that's cool, I guess.

Hey... we see all kinds. We see seemingly well-advised people suddenly abandon their way of life (families, jobs, etc.) to join cults. Human nature is incredibly complex to the point where describing 'normal' is challenging to say the least.

I speak from my perspective. When I say I feel these women could do better... I do so because I'd like to see them do better for themselves in the world according to me. I most certainly could have things wrong in these situations. These women could be doing better than I ever could imagine and even better than the more 'liberal' woman typical of the west.

mickeyrat

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

mickeyrat said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

mickeyrat said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

I had assumed the same as others, that the hijab etc were signs of oppression and degrading women. Then I asked my best friend, a Bosnian Muslim, her own views and those of her friends and acquaintances who actually wear them. It's all very well for us to stand in judgement and make assumptions based on our own culture and beliefs but it's quite arrogant of us to do so. In fact, in making such judgements, it may be us who are the oppressors.

Yes my friend spoke of the idea of modesty but she gave me a new perspective on it. To those women who choose to wear these garments of their own free will, they actually see it as a means of empowerment. It gives them control over who they allow to see their body, a gift that they can choose to bestow or deny.

Food for thought

Some Muslim women raised from birth to believe and act a certain way cannot see the problem for what it is.

Just as people buy into magnificent, magical and wonderful gods that they need to placate so that they can assume a spot in the really cool place once this term is over... oppressed women believe they are not oppressed for lack of vision and understanding.

It's like the victim of abuse that thinks they are deserving of the abuse... or the anorexic woman seeing obesity when she looks in the mirror.

There's a woman that attends the AA meeting I go to on Saturdays. White middle-aged American born and raised here, grown adult children. At some point in her sobriety she chose to convert to Islam. There is nothing in this woman's demeanor actions or words that suggests to me that she feels oppressed nor is she ignorant much less to the point where she wouldn't recognize oppression were it to exist for her. I should also add she remarried a man from a country , I'm not sure which but is in Arab country.

She drives herself and by all appearances quite happy in her life and choices made.

Ignorance is bliss.

You sound like you're saying that anyone who chooses to be Muslim is ignorant. I really hope not, as that would show a depressing level of both ignorance and arrogance on your own part

That's not what I meant. I meant to say if they know no other way... everything is cool.

but if they do know and lived so previously as the real person I described?

Then that's cool, I guess.

Hey... we see all kinds. We see seemingly well-advised people suddenly abandon their way of life (families, jobs, etc.) to join cults. Human nature is incredibly complex to the point where describing 'normal' is challenging to say the least.

I speak from my perspective. When I say I feel these women could do better... I do so because I'd like to see them do better for themselves in the world according to me. I most certainly could have things wrong in these situations. These women could be doing better than I ever could imagine and even better than the more 'liberal' woman typical of the west.

I can appreciate that. Thank you.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

mickeyrat said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

mickeyrat said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

mickeyrat said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

I had assumed the same as others, that the hijab etc were signs of oppression and degrading women. Then I asked my best friend, a Bosnian Muslim, her own views and those of her friends and acquaintances who actually wear them. It's all very well for us to stand in judgement and make assumptions based on our own culture and beliefs but it's quite arrogant of us to do so. In fact, in making such judgements, it may be us who are the oppressors.

Yes my friend spoke of the idea of modesty but she gave me a new perspective on it. To those women who choose to wear these garments of their own free will, they actually see it as a means of empowerment. It gives them control over who they allow to see their body, a gift that they can choose to bestow or deny.

Food for thought

Some Muslim women raised from birth to believe and act a certain way cannot see the problem for what it is.

Just as people buy into magnificent, magical and wonderful gods that they need to placate so that they can assume a spot in the really cool place once this term is over... oppressed women believe they are not oppressed for lack of vision and understanding.

It's like the victim of abuse that thinks they are deserving of the abuse... or the anorexic woman seeing obesity when she looks in the mirror.

There's a woman that attends the AA meeting I go to on Saturdays. White middle-aged American born and raised here, grown adult children. At some point in her sobriety she chose to convert to Islam. There is nothing in this woman's demeanor actions or words that suggests to me that she feels oppressed nor is she ignorant much less to the point where she wouldn't recognize oppression were it to exist for her. I should also add she remarried a man from a country , I'm not sure which but is in Arab country.

She drives herself and by all appearances quite happy in her life and choices made.

Ignorance is bliss.

You sound like you're saying that anyone who chooses to be Muslim is ignorant. I really hope not, as that would show a depressing level of both ignorance and arrogance on your own part

That's not what I meant. I meant to say if they know no other way... everything is cool.

but if they do know and lived so previously as the real person I described?

Then that's cool, I guess.

Hey... we see all kinds. We see seemingly well-advised people suddenly abandon their way of life (families, jobs, etc.) to join cults. Human nature is incredibly complex to the point where describing 'normal' is challenging to say the least.

I speak from my perspective. When I say I feel these women could do better... I do so because I'd like to see them do better for themselves in the world according to me. I most certainly could have things wrong in these situations. These women could be doing better than I ever could imagine and even better than the more 'liberal' woman typical of the west.

I can appreciate that. Thank you.

Lol.

I saw a reply from you and figured 'Oh Christ'... a left hook was headed my way. I was getting ready to bob and weave... maybe flick a few jabs or something.

Honestly, if people are truly happy and leave others alone... I'm okay with them. I might not agree, but I can accept.

Boxes&Books

Police make woman remove Burkini

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/french-police-make-woman-remove-burkini-on-nice-beach/ar-BBvYpQb?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout

Drowned Out

tonifig8 said:

Police make woman remove Burkini

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/french-police-make-woman-remove-burkini-on-nice-beach/ar-BBvYpQb?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout

Sickening.

"Her ticket, seen by French news agency AFP, read that she was not wearing “an outfit respecting good morals and secularism”.

In what kind of society is it 'good morals' to force a woman to disrobe? If you choose to direct your social justice efforts toward banning the burqa, this should piss you off just as much.

"When, as happened in France, an attempt to coerce women out of the burqa rather than creating a situation in which a woman can choose what she wishes to do, it's not about liberating her, but almost unclothing her.
It becomes an act of humiliation and cultural imperialism.
It's not about the burqa. It's about coercion. Coercing a woman out of a burqa is as bad as coercing her into one".
-Arundhati Roy