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  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,592
    show me bathing attire from the late 1800's and early 1900's.

    whats really the difference on the surface?

    some of the argument has been based on "morals" . so exhibiting modesty in dress is immoral but string bikinis or thongs arent?
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Boxes&BooksBoxes&Books Posts: 2,672
    rgambs said:
    Men telling women what they can/can't wear, so let's stop those men and tell these women what they can't wear. Yeah, sounds like irony to me.
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    mickeyrat said:

    show me bathing attire from the late 1800's and early 1900's.

    whats really the difference on the surface?

    some of the argument has been based on "morals" . so exhibiting modesty in dress is immoral but string bikinis or thongs arent?

    Can we show you the standard attire from just 40-50 years ago instead? You know where women could wear blue jeans and show their faces in public before these radical extremists decided that women no longer had rights and should be treated worse than stray dogs?
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,592
    they should ban wetsuits and drysuits too.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • unsung said:

    mickeyrat said:

    show me bathing attire from the late 1800's and early 1900's.

    whats really the difference on the surface?

    some of the argument has been based on "morals" . so exhibiting modesty in dress is immoral but string bikinis or thongs arent?

    Can we show you the standard attire from just 40-50 years ago instead? You know where women could wear blue jeans and show their faces in public before these radical extremists decided that women no longer had rights and should be treated worse than stray dogs?
    you can't force cultural change. it has to happen organically without outside interference. and the burkinis don't cover the face. it looks the same as a bloody wetsuit.
    new album "Cigarettes" out Spring 2025!

    www.headstonesband.com




  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,592
    we really need to crack down on the amish the lds and the ultra-orthodox jews too.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,951
    edited August 2016
    This is stupid. I couldn't be more against this "cover up" thing that the Muslims have going for women - it is an in-your-face symbol of female oppression and male aggression and domination. But telling people what they can and can't wear is so ridiculous. The only way to change this sexist cultural tradition is through education and the continued push for Islamic women's rights and freedoms, especially among Muslim men. That is a steep uphill battle (worth fighting). These kinds of bans only make those who support such archaic and sexist traditions dig their heels in even further.

    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_Soul said:

    This is stupid. I couldn't be more against this "cover up" thing that the Muslims have going for women - it is an in-your-face symbol of female oppression and male aggression and domination. But telling people what they can and can't wear is so ridiculous. The only way to change this sexist cultural tradition is through education and the continued push for Islamic women's rights and freedoms, especially among Muslim men. That is a steep uphill battle (worth fighting). These kinds of bans only make those who support such archaic and sexist traditions dig their heels in even further.

    It's no different than places in first world countries enforcing a dress code to get into their establishments.
    What's the big deal? If you want to be a woman in the Islamic culture you have to cover up - simple.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,951

    PJ_Soul said:

    This is stupid. I couldn't be more against this "cover up" thing that the Muslims have going for women - it is an in-your-face symbol of female oppression and male aggression and domination. But telling people what they can and can't wear is so ridiculous. The only way to change this sexist cultural tradition is through education and the continued push for Islamic women's rights and freedoms, especially among Muslim men. That is a steep uphill battle (worth fighting). These kinds of bans only make those who support such archaic and sexist traditions dig their heels in even further.

    It's no different than places in first world countries enforcing a dress code to get into their establishments.
    What's the big deal? If you want to be a woman in the Islamic culture you have to cover up - simple.
    I think I noted what the big deal is. If you actually think what you said here you don't understand much.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038
    PJ_Soul said:

    This is stupid. I couldn't be more against this "cover up" thing that the Muslims have going for women - it is an in-your-face symbol of female oppression and male aggression and domination. But telling people what they can and can't wear is so ridiculous. The only way to change this sexist cultural tradition is through education and the continued push for Islamic women's rights and freedoms, especially among Muslim men. That is a steep uphill battle (worth fighting). These kinds of bans only make those who support such archaic and sexist traditions dig their heels in even further.

    Good points!

    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • PJ_Soul said:

    This is stupid. I couldn't be more against this "cover up" thing that the Muslims have going for women - it is an in-your-face symbol of female oppression and male aggression and domination. But telling people what they can and can't wear is so ridiculous. The only way to change this sexist cultural tradition is through education and the continued push for Islamic women's rights and freedoms, especially among Muslim men. That is a steep uphill battle (worth fighting). These kinds of bans only make those who support such archaic and sexist traditions dig their heels in even further.

    It's no different than places in first world countries enforcing a dress code to get into their establishments.
    What's the big deal? If you want to be a woman in the Islamic culture you have to cover up - simple.
    Seriously? No, seriously??!!!
    new album "Cigarettes" out Spring 2025!

    www.headstonesband.com




  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,592

    PJ_Soul said:

    This is stupid. I couldn't be more against this "cover up" thing that the Muslims have going for women - it is an in-your-face symbol of female oppression and male aggression and domination. But telling people what they can and can't wear is so ridiculous. The only way to change this sexist cultural tradition is through education and the continued push for Islamic women's rights and freedoms, especially among Muslim men. That is a steep uphill battle (worth fighting). These kinds of bans only make those who support such archaic and sexist traditions dig their heels in even further.

    It's no different than places in first world countries enforcing a dress code to get into their establishments.
    What's the big deal? If you want to be a woman in the Islamic culture you have to cover up - simple.
    Seriously? No, seriously??!!!
    Right, I guess that makes Queen Noor of Jordan not a muslim. Not als=ways is she found with a scarf to cover her hair and she usually is seen wearing western style clothing.

    Theres also a movement in Iran where women are taking selfies outdoors dressing as they wish. Thats the kind of change that takes generations to implement.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    ‘They have no place in our society’: Burkas could be banned in Germany after proposal from Merkel’s party



    http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/they-have-no-place-in-our-society-burkas-could-soon-be-banned-in-germany-after-proposal-from-merkels-party
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    edited August 2016
    SECURITY CONCERNS??? Are you all aware that BURKINIS were DESIGNED IN AUSTRALIA . It didn't originate in Europe or the Middle East, But in a secular country whose designer, a Lebanese woman, saw it as a way to be inclusive in Australias somewhat dominant beach culture. It was inspired by watching her niece play netball and being dismayed by seeing the young girl having to wear her netball uniform over her traditional Islamic attire... angered at her niece's predicament the designer was moved to design a garment that allowed Muslim women to play sports whilst preserving their personal modesty. In time it morphed into the burkini...so no they are not based on the enslavement of women.

    Personally I have no issue with the wearing of the burkini.
    Post edited by catefrances on
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    rgambs said:
    and women wearing the burkini, showing modesty is the cause of what exactly???

    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,951
    edited August 2016

    SECURITY CONCERNS??? Are you all aware that BURKINIS were DESIGNED IN AUSTRALIA . It didn't originate in Europe or the Middle East, But in a secular country whose designer, a Lebanese woman, saw it as a way to be inclusive in Australias somewhat dominant beach culture. It was inspired by watching her niece play netball and being dismayed by seeing the young girl having to wear her netball uniform over her traditional Islamic attire... angered at her niece's predicament the designer was moved to design a garment that allowed Muslim women to play sports whilst preserving their personal modesty. In time it morphed into the burkini...so no they are not based on the enslavement of women.

    Personally I have no issue with the wearing of the burkini.

    The name is so misleading too. Burkas cover the whole body including the face in a sack. "Burkinis" don't. But yes, they are still based on the oppression of women. The whole "modesty/cover up" thing is based on that.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    edited August 2016
    PJ_Soul said:

    SECURITY CONCERNS??? Are you all aware that BURKINIS were DESIGNED IN AUSTRALIA . It didn't originate in Europe or the Middle East, But in a secular country whose designer, a Lebanese woman, saw it as a way to be inclusive in Australias somewhat dominant beach culture. It was inspired by watching her niece play netball and being dismayed by seeing the young girl having to wear her netball uniform over her traditional Islamic attire... angered at her niece's predicament the designer was moved to design a garment that allowed Muslim women to play sports whilst preserving their personal modesty. In time it morphed into the burkini...so no they are not based on the enslavement of women.

    Personally I have no issue with the wearing of the burkini.

    The name is so misleading too. Burkas cover the whole body including the face in a sack. "Burkinis" don't. But yes, they are still based on the oppression of women. The whole "modesty/cover up" thing is based on that.
    misleading? its just a just a play on words that's all.

    some could see the bikini as a symbol of the skinny culture that some women find oppressive and discriminatory. some could look at the scene of a beach in summer and see a never ending meat market where women are objectified, categorised, dismissed as fat, hideous, pillorised for daring to buck the norm of skinny bikini body(12 weeks til summer! are you ready? how to get your bikini body!) and be confident in their own selves by wearing what they want. no matter what women wear in 'our' society they will be judged. the fact that muslim women are seen as the 'other' and that their expression is seen as the more overt makes no difference. it is said that muslim women are oppressed when they wear the burqa, or hijab, or niqab.. that may be so. however, some could say women in western culture are similarly oppressed, yet in a more normalised(albeit reverse way) due to the constant barrage of body shape and weight shaming that goes on.

    Post edited by catefrances on
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,592

    PJ_Soul said:

    SECURITY CONCERNS??? Are you all aware that BURKINIS were DESIGNED IN AUSTRALIA . It didn't originate in Europe or the Middle East, But in a secular country whose designer, a Lebanese woman, saw it as a way to be inclusive in Australias somewhat dominant beach culture. It was inspired by watching her niece play netball and being dismayed by seeing the young girl having to wear her netball uniform over her traditional Islamic attire... angered at her niece's predicament the designer was moved to design a garment that allowed Muslim women to play sports whilst preserving their personal modesty. In time it morphed into the burkini...so no they are not based on the enslavement of women.

    Personally I have no issue with the wearing of the burkini.

    The name is so misleading too. Burkas cover the whole body including the face in a sack. "Burkinis" don't. But yes, they are still based on the oppression of women. The whole "modesty/cover up" thing is based on that.
    misleading? its just a just a play on words that's all.

    some could see the bikini as a symbol of the skinny culture that some women find oppressive and discriminatory. some could look at the scene of a beach in summer and see a never ending meat market where women are objectified, categorised, dismissed as fat, hideous, pillorised for daring to buck the norm of skinny bikini body(12 weeks til summer! are you ready? how to get your bikini body!) and be confident in their own selves by wearing what they want. no matter what women wear in 'our' society they will be judged. the fact that muslim women are seen as the 'other' and that their expression is seen as the more overt makes no difference. it is said that muslim women are oppressed when they wear the burqa, or hijab, or niqab.. that may be so. however, some could say women in western culture are similarly oppressed, yet in a more normalised(albeit reverse way) due to the constant barrage of body shape and weight shaming that goes on.

    Yep, here are women who would not otherwise be able to reconcile their faith with a day at the beach. Now they can participate in what so many readily enjoy. AND be faithful.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • jnimhaoileoinjnimhaoileoin Posts: 2,682
    I had assumed the same as others, that the hijab etc were signs of oppression and degrading women. Then I asked my best friend, a Bosnian Muslim, her own views and those of her friends and acquaintances who actually wear them. It's all very well for us to stand in judgement and make assumptions based on our own culture and beliefs but it's quite arrogant of us to do so. In fact, in making such judgements, it may be us who are the oppressors.

    Yes my friend spoke of the idea of modesty but she gave me a new perspective on it. To those women who choose to wear these garments of their own free will, they actually see it as a means of empowerment. It gives them control over who they allow to see their body, a gift that they can choose to bestow or deny.

    Food for thought
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,951

    PJ_Soul said:

    SECURITY CONCERNS??? Are you all aware that BURKINIS were DESIGNED IN AUSTRALIA . It didn't originate in Europe or the Middle East, But in a secular country whose designer, a Lebanese woman, saw it as a way to be inclusive in Australias somewhat dominant beach culture. It was inspired by watching her niece play netball and being dismayed by seeing the young girl having to wear her netball uniform over her traditional Islamic attire... angered at her niece's predicament the designer was moved to design a garment that allowed Muslim women to play sports whilst preserving their personal modesty. In time it morphed into the burkini...so no they are not based on the enslavement of women.

    Personally I have no issue with the wearing of the burkini.

    The name is so misleading too. Burkas cover the whole body including the face in a sack. "Burkinis" don't. But yes, they are still based on the oppression of women. The whole "modesty/cover up" thing is based on that.
    misleading? its just a just a play on words that's all.

    some could see the bikini as a symbol of the skinny culture that some women find oppressive and discriminatory. some could look at the scene of a beach in summer and see a never ending meat market where women are objectified, categorised, dismissed as fat, hideous, pillorised for daring to buck the norm of skinny bikini body(12 weeks til summer! are you ready? how to get your bikini body!) and be confident in their own selves by wearing what they want. no matter what women wear in 'our' society they will be judged. the fact that muslim women are seen as the 'other' and that their expression is seen as the more overt makes no difference. it is said that muslim women are oppressed when they wear the burqa, or hijab, or niqab.. that may be so. however, some could say women in western culture are similarly oppressed, yet in a more normalised(albeit reverse way) due to the constant barrage of body shape and weight shaming that goes on.

    The two aren't even remotely close to comparable.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,592
    PJ_Soul said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    SECURITY CONCERNS??? Are you all aware that BURKINIS were DESIGNED IN AUSTRALIA . It didn't originate in Europe or the Middle East, But in a secular country whose designer, a Lebanese woman, saw it as a way to be inclusive in Australias somewhat dominant beach culture. It was inspired by watching her niece play netball and being dismayed by seeing the young girl having to wear her netball uniform over her traditional Islamic attire... angered at her niece's predicament the designer was moved to design a garment that allowed Muslim women to play sports whilst preserving their personal modesty. In time it morphed into the burkini...so no they are not based on the enslavement of women.

    Personally I have no issue with the wearing of the burkini.

    The name is so misleading too. Burkas cover the whole body including the face in a sack. "Burkinis" don't. But yes, they are still based on the oppression of women. The whole "modesty/cover up" thing is based on that.
    misleading? its just a just a play on words that's all.

    some could see the bikini as a symbol of the skinny culture that some women find oppressive and discriminatory. some could look at the scene of a beach in summer and see a never ending meat market where women are objectified, categorised, dismissed as fat, hideous, pillorised for daring to buck the norm of skinny bikini body(12 weeks til summer! are you ready? how to get your bikini body!) and be confident in their own selves by wearing what they want. no matter what women wear in 'our' society they will be judged. the fact that muslim women are seen as the 'other' and that their expression is seen as the more overt makes no difference. it is said that muslim women are oppressed when they wear the burqa, or hijab, or niqab.. that may be so. however, some could say women in western culture are similarly oppressed, yet in a more normalised(albeit reverse way) due to the constant barrage of body shape and weight shaming that goes on.

    The two aren't even remotely close to comparable.
    some could argue what Cate described is far more insidious. The psychological corrosion of a sense of self and self-worth for no other reason than greed and profit that begins at an early age and continues throughout a womans life.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,951
    edited August 2016
    Comparing bikinis and the position of women in America to the position of women in places where fucking burkas are worn is at best incredible naivety when it comes to just how bad things are for women in some of these places. Not comparable. I am not arguing that there isn't a big issue with body image resulting from culture and media among girls and women in North America, but that is a completely different subject. Let's stick to the subject. This comparison seemed to be used as a way to somehow justify or defend how things are for many Muslim women, almost like a two wrongs make a right kind of case. That is a totally invalid argument.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,592
    so you're saying a woman of faith should just stay home.

    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • I had assumed the same as others, that the hijab etc were signs of oppression and degrading women. Then I asked my best friend, a Bosnian Muslim, her own views and those of her friends and acquaintances who actually wear them. It's all very well for us to stand in judgement and make assumptions based on our own culture and beliefs but it's quite arrogant of us to do so. In fact, in making such judgements, it may be us who are the oppressors.

    Yes my friend spoke of the idea of modesty but she gave me a new perspective on it. To those women who choose to wear these garments of their own free will, they actually see it as a means of empowerment. It gives them control over who they allow to see their body, a gift that they can choose to bestow or deny.

    Food for thought

    Some Muslim women raised from birth to believe and act a certain way cannot see the problem for what it is.

    Just as people buy into magnificent, magical and wonderful gods that they need to placate so that they can assume a spot in the really cool place once this term is over... oppressed women believe they are not oppressed for lack of vision and understanding.

    It's like the victim of abuse that thinks they are deserving of the abuse... or the anorexic woman seeing obesity when she looks in the mirror.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,592

    I had assumed the same as others, that the hijab etc were signs of oppression and degrading women. Then I asked my best friend, a Bosnian Muslim, her own views and those of her friends and acquaintances who actually wear them. It's all very well for us to stand in judgement and make assumptions based on our own culture and beliefs but it's quite arrogant of us to do so. In fact, in making such judgements, it may be us who are the oppressors.

    Yes my friend spoke of the idea of modesty but she gave me a new perspective on it. To those women who choose to wear these garments of their own free will, they actually see it as a means of empowerment. It gives them control over who they allow to see their body, a gift that they can choose to bestow or deny.

    Food for thought

    Some Muslim women raised from birth to believe and act a certain way cannot see the problem for what it is.

    Just as people buy into magnificent, magical and wonderful gods that they need to placate so that they can assume a spot in the really cool place once this term is over... oppressed women believe they are not oppressed for lack of vision and understanding.

    It's like the victim of abuse that thinks they are deserving of the abuse... or the anorexic woman seeing obesity when she looks in the mirror.
    There's a woman that attends the AA meeting I go to on Saturdays. White middle-aged American born and raised here, grown adult children. At some point in her sobriety she chose to convert to Islam. There is nothing in this woman's demeanor actions or words that suggests to me that she feels oppressed nor is she ignorant much less to the point where she wouldn't recognize oppression were it to exist for her. I should also add she remarried a man from a country , I'm not sure which but is in Arab country.

    She drives herself and by all appearances quite happy in her life and choices made.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyrat said:

    I had assumed the same as others, that the hijab etc were signs of oppression and degrading women. Then I asked my best friend, a Bosnian Muslim, her own views and those of her friends and acquaintances who actually wear them. It's all very well for us to stand in judgement and make assumptions based on our own culture and beliefs but it's quite arrogant of us to do so. In fact, in making such judgements, it may be us who are the oppressors.

    Yes my friend spoke of the idea of modesty but she gave me a new perspective on it. To those women who choose to wear these garments of their own free will, they actually see it as a means of empowerment. It gives them control over who they allow to see their body, a gift that they can choose to bestow or deny.

    Food for thought

    Some Muslim women raised from birth to believe and act a certain way cannot see the problem for what it is.

    Just as people buy into magnificent, magical and wonderful gods that they need to placate so that they can assume a spot in the really cool place once this term is over... oppressed women believe they are not oppressed for lack of vision and understanding.

    It's like the victim of abuse that thinks they are deserving of the abuse... or the anorexic woman seeing obesity when she looks in the mirror.
    There's a woman that attends the AA meeting I go to on Saturdays. White middle-aged American born and raised here, grown adult children. At some point in her sobriety she chose to convert to Islam. There is nothing in this woman's demeanor actions or words that suggests to me that she feels oppressed nor is she ignorant much less to the point where she wouldn't recognize oppression were it to exist for her. I should also add she remarried a man from a country , I'm not sure which but is in Arab country.

    She drives herself and by all appearances quite happy in her life and choices made.
    Ignorance is bliss.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • I was driving through Tim's two or three days ago, and an extended family stood outside it: the men all wore western clothing (Nike shoes, t-shirts and jeans), while the women wore the entire traditional set up.

    Ultimately, it is their business... but how have the men come to a place where they feel free to dress as they were, yet the women were not? I can only surmise and the pessimistic side of me felt for those women. The contrast in appearance was significant.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,138
    Burkini sounds like a side dish at a Greek restaurant
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,951
    mickeyrat said:

    so you're saying a woman of faith should just stay home.

    Who are you asking?
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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