Istanbul airport terrorist attack.

tempo_n_groove

my2hands said:

I'm not going to debate you or anyone else on here, honestly it's a waste of time... but the middle east was a much more stable place than it is now, albeit with dictators & monarchies supported by the USA, but it was definitely more stable than it is currently. It wasn't perfect, but it didn't help that cowboy George and his energy industry crony posse decided to topple Sadaam based on lies and deception... which led to a power vacuum easily filled by the Iranians... which lead to the toppling of several strong arm regimes during the Arab spring... and by the way, didn't ISIS originate in Iraq? Are you following the dominoes now?

I will ask this though, what exactly do you think the Obama administration should do, or should have done, to try yo stop or slow terrorism

I didn't just start paying attention yesterday, so attempts to make W look like a hero and Obama to be a terrorist sympathizer won't fly here brother... frankly Obama has done a gell.if a lot more to fight terrorism, mostly in ways I disapprove of... but at least he was able to capture bin laden... and at least he didn't use fear and bogus "threat levels" to scare the shit out of Americans leading up to an election

This is so true. EVERYONE complained about Sadam though and now he's gone that country is a mess.

The sad thing is that they(Iraq) are gong to continue to try and blow each other up. The two parties out there hate each other that much.

tempo_n_groove

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

my2hands said:

I'm not going to debate you or anyone else on here, honestly it's a waste of time... but

So if you're not debating what are you doing?

I looked up the definition of instigator and this was a prime example, lol.

seykooooah

JWPearl said:

mcgruff10 said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

mcgruff10 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

It was brought up in the 'attacks nobody cares about' thread.

Extreme left wing views- such as the ones consistently defending Islamic violence- are as goofy as the extreme right wing views- such as the ones demanding deportations.

There's a middle ground that needs to be shaped and accepted.

Unfortuanty no one cares about these attacks.

Speak for yourself please

After the Paris attacks there were French flags all over facebook; where are all the Turkish flags today? I haven't seen one. Seriously, unfortunately no one cares about these attacks.

this is what i noticed too
really sad but there is nothing we
can do in mans level of thinking
and power

First of all thanks all for the solidarity. I saw a lot of pictures from the squares of Berlin, Paris etc with big Turkish flags reflected through the buildings via video mapping. Also as far as I know there was a moment of silence on the MBL match between Yankees vs Rangers.

Peace for all V

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Anyone who thinks Bush's invasion of the Middle East wasn't tantamount to kicking the hornets nest is in serious need of some history revision- especially if they are pointing fingers at Obama who inherited the mess Bush's regime created.

Godfather.

if Trump is elected or anybody else for that matter you will not read anything from me blaming Obama, when we elect a new president they better do their job and not whine like a little beotch about the last guy, Obama made a promise to make things better so if he has done it or not has nothing to do with Bush, Reagan or even Nixon, people need to hold their politicians' accountable for their promise's and not give them an out by blaming the last guy.

Godfather.

gimmesometruth27

mcgruff10 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

It was brought up in the 'attacks nobody cares about' thread.

Extreme left wing views- such as the ones consistently defending Islamic violence- are as goofy as the extreme right wing views- such as the ones demanding deportations.

There's a middle ground that needs to be shaped and accepted.

Unfortuanty no one cares about these attacks.

what do you want us to say?

i think all of our disgust with this attack is implied. do we have to state it every single time?

mcgruff10

gimmesometruth27 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

It was brought up in the 'attacks nobody cares about' thread.

Extreme left wing views- such as the ones consistently defending Islamic violence- are as goofy as the extreme right wing views- such as the ones demanding deportations.

There's a middle ground that needs to be shaped and accepted.

Unfortuanty no one cares about these attacks.

what do you want us to say?

i think all of our disgust with this attack is implied. do we have to state it every single time?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/we-prayed-for-paris-but-what-about-istanbul_us_57741c57e4b042fba1ceeec2

Once again, there was relative radio silence in response to a deadly terror attack on a predominantly Muslim country.

While there was an outpouring of international solidarity following last year’s terrorist attacks in Paris, which killed almost 130 people, and March’s terrorist attacks in Brussels, which killed more than 30, the response to the suicide bombing on Istanbul’s Ataturk Airport on Tuesday, which killed 41 and injured another 239, was decidedly less impressive.

Only a handful of countries paid tribute by lighting up buildings or monuments in Turkish flag colors. The Empire State Building remained dark on Wednesday night, but the World Trade Center, which lit up in Belgium’s and France’s flag colors after their attacks, did not light up in Turkish colors.

(The Eiffel Tower was supposed to be lit up in Turkish colors Wednesday, but due to a technical difficulty the tribute was rescheduled for Thursday.)

And the absence of vigils honoring the dead was astounding.

The Union of European Football Associations said it would not hold a moment of silence during the Euro 2016 quarterfinals because Turkey had already been eliminated from the series, Associated Press reporter Rob Harris tweeted.

While Facebook turned on its safety check feature, which allows users to mark themselves as safe during a crisis, it did not provide a filter that lets users easily modify their profile picture with an overlay of the Turkish flag — something they’ve done with the French flag, the Belgian flag and with other symbols during tragedies.
A Facebook post that went viral after a deadly bombing in Ankara, Turkey’s capital, in March highlighted the disturbing reality that the outpouring of support in the wake of an attack in Turkey was significantly more muted than it was after the attacks in Paris or Brussels.

The author, James Taylor, asked readers to think about the victims being “people you see every day on your way to work, people just like you and I, normal, happy people.”

“These people are no different. They just happen to be Turkish,” he wrote.

This story has been updated to note that the Eiffel Tower was scheduled to be lit up in Turkish flag colors, and the Empire State Building was scheduled to remain dark on Wednesay night.

PJ_Soul

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

mcgruff10 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

It was brought up in the 'attacks nobody cares about' thread.

Extreme left wing views- such as the ones consistently defending Islamic violence- are as goofy as the extreme right wing views- such as the ones demanding deportations.

There's a middle ground that needs to be shaped and accepted.

Unfortuanty no one cares about these attacks.

Speak for yourself please

After the Paris attacks there were French flags all over facebook; where are all the Turkish flags today? I haven't seen one. Seriously, unfortunately no one cares about these attacks.

That's true, and that's the reason this entire thread was created in the first place. You're totally right. I just meant, and what I assume jnimhaoileoin meant, was that WE happen to care. I don't think we got that you were talking that generally.

Aaaaah got yA! So we agree! Nice.
It is sad that these types of attacks really don't have any sort of impact on the western world. people seriously don't give two shits.

No, and since I made this thread I've found that more often than not, folks are very comfortable making excuses as to why not, and don't feel that there is anything wrong with this..... Obviously I disagree. I am saddened by the apathy, particularly when these events really do have real meaning in our lives too, when you look at the BIG picture.

I thought Tempo was the OP?

Yeah, sorry, I totally thought we were having this conversation in the Terrorist attacks we don't care about thread this whole time, lol.

BS44325

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Anyone who thinks Bush's invasion of the Middle East wasn't tantamount to kicking the hornets nest is in serious need of some history revision- especially if they are pointing fingers at Obama who inherited the mess Bush's regime created.

It was kicking the hornets nest. The hornets were starting to sting and the nest needed to be kicked. That doesn't make W a hero or amazing. It makes him someone who recognized the status quo left in place by his father's own foreign policy was unacceptable. Pandora's box was already creaking open and he just decided to open it all the way on American terms. Again the stability you all speak of was an illusion.

Bentleyspop

BS44325 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Anyone who thinks Bush's invasion of the Middle East wasn't tantamount to kicking the hornets nest is in serious need of some history revision- especially if they are pointing fingers at Obama who inherited the mess Bush's regime created.

It was kicking the hornets nest. The hornets were starting to sting and the nest needed to be kicked. That doesn't make W a hero or amazing. It makes him someone who recognized the status quo left in place by his father's own foreign policy was unacceptable. Pandora's box was already creaking open and he just decided to open it all the way on American terms. Again the stability you all speak of was an illusion.

Once again I feel I must point out that george bush had absolutely nothing to do with anything. Especially in the middle east.
All blame and responsibility rests squarely with dick cheney, karl rove, and don rumsfeld.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

BS44325 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Anyone who thinks Bush's invasion of the Middle East wasn't tantamount to kicking the hornets nest is in serious need of some history revision- especially if they are pointing fingers at Obama who inherited the mess Bush's regime created.

It was kicking the hornets nest. The hornets were starting to sting and the nest needed to be kicked. That doesn't make W a hero or amazing. It makes him someone who recognized the status quo left in place by his father's own foreign policy was unacceptable. Pandora's box was already creaking open and he just decided to open it all the way on American terms. Again the stability you all speak of was an illusion.

There's some truth to this post, but it's lost in the suggestion that Bush recognized anything and acted as a president with a vision and a plan. He was a puppet who's masters manipulated him into becoming the worst president of the modern era.

The middle east invasion was misguided to say the least. From the nationalities of the hijackers, it was pretty clear who the enemies of the US were; however, Saudi Arabia was left alone if not somewhat protected.

And now... the west faces a somewhat galvanized force from the middle east that is rearing its head in various places at various times with no apparent end in sight.

F**king scary really.

BS44325

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

BS44325 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Anyone who thinks Bush's invasion of the Middle East wasn't tantamount to kicking the hornets nest is in serious need of some history revision- especially if they are pointing fingers at Obama who inherited the mess Bush's regime created.

It was kicking the hornets nest. The hornets were starting to sting and the nest needed to be kicked. That doesn't make W a hero or amazing. It makes him someone who recognized the status quo left in place by his father's own foreign policy was unacceptable. Pandora's box was already creaking open and he just decided to open it all the way on American terms. Again the stability you all speak of was an illusion.

There's some truth to this post, but it's lost in the suggestion that Bush recognized anything and acted as a president with a vision and a plan. He was a puppet who's masters manipulated him into becoming the worst president of the modern era.

The middle east invasion was misguided to say the least. From the nationalities of the hijackers, it was pretty clear who the enemies of the US were; however, Saudi Arabia was left alone if not somewhat protected.

And now... the west faces a somewhat galvanized force from the middle east that is rearing its head in various places at various times with no apparent end in sight.

F**king scary really.

I don't buy the puppet argument at all and history shows it not to be the case. I get that thinking W was a useles tool under the control of outside forces is AMT 101 but history just does not bare that out. The decisions he made were from a selection of only bad choices. Again that's what gets lost in here. The "galvanized force from the middle east" was coming...it was only a matter of time. The radical islamist movement was not confined to a country but was always planned to be global in reach and would have been ascendent with or without action. The question was whether the coming battle would be on Western terms. Iraq was an absolute mess post invasion but the major part of that mess is that it brought all the radical elements to the surface. The surge then proved that these radicals could be defeated through American cooperation with local sunni forces. Victory was in sight but it would only ever have been guaranteed by a prolonged American presence similar to Germany/Japan. That was the strategy and it was working. The withdrawal however brought the collapse, the horrors of Syria and from there the bombings in Istanbul.

Godfather.

BS44325 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

BS44325 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Anyone who thinks Bush's invasion of the Middle East wasn't tantamount to kicking the hornets nest is in serious need of some history revision- especially if they are pointing fingers at Obama who inherited the mess Bush's regime created.

It was kicking the hornets nest. The hornets were starting to sting and the nest needed to be kicked. That doesn't make W a hero or amazing. It makes him someone who recognized the status quo left in place by his father's own foreign policy was unacceptable. Pandora's box was already creaking open and he just decided to open it all the way on American terms. Again the stability you all speak of was an illusion.

There's some truth to this post, but it's lost in the suggestion that Bush recognized anything and acted as a president with a vision and a plan. He was a puppet who's masters manipulated him into becoming the worst president of the modern era.

The middle east invasion was misguided to say the least. From the nationalities of the hijackers, it was pretty clear who the enemies of the US were; however, Saudi Arabia was left alone if not somewhat protected.

And now... the west faces a somewhat galvanized force from the middle east that is rearing its head in various places at various times with no apparent end in sight.

F**king scary really.

I don't buy the puppet argument at all and history shows it not to be the case. I get that thinking W was a useles tool under the control of outside forces is AMT 101 but history just does not bare that out. The decisions he made were from a selection of only bad choices. Again that's what gets lost in here. The "galvanized force from the middle east" was coming...it was only a matter of time. The radical islamist movement was not confined to a country but was always planned to be global in reach and would have been ascendent with or without action. The question was whether the coming battle would be on Western terms. Iraq was an absolute mess post invasion but the major part of that mess is that it brought all the radical elements to the surface. The surge then proved that these radicals could be defeated through American cooperation with local sunni forces. Victory was in sight but it would only ever have been guaranteed by a prolonged American presence similar to Germany/Japan. That was the strategy and it was working. The withdrawal however brought the collapse, the horrors of Syria and from there the bombings in Istanbul.

great post.

Godfather.

dignin

BS44325 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

BS44325 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Anyone who thinks Bush's invasion of the Middle East wasn't tantamount to kicking the hornets nest is in serious need of some history revision- especially if they are pointing fingers at Obama who inherited the mess Bush's regime created.

It was kicking the hornets nest. The hornets were starting to sting and the nest needed to be kicked. That doesn't make W a hero or amazing. It makes him someone who recognized the status quo left in place by his father's own foreign policy was unacceptable. Pandora's box was already creaking open and he just decided to open it all the way on American terms. Again the stability you all speak of was an illusion.

There's some truth to this post, but it's lost in the suggestion that Bush recognized anything and acted as a president with a vision and a plan. He was a puppet who's masters manipulated him into becoming the worst president of the modern era.

The middle east invasion was misguided to say the least. From the nationalities of the hijackers, it was pretty clear who the enemies of the US were; however, Saudi Arabia was left alone if not somewhat protected.

And now... the west faces a somewhat galvanized force from the middle east that is rearing its head in various places at various times with no apparent end in sight.

F**king scary really.

I don't buy the puppet argument at all and history shows it not to be the case. I get that thinking W was a useles tool under the control of outside forces is AMT 101 but history just does not bare that out. The decisions he made were from a selection of only bad choices. Again that's what gets lost in here. The "galvanized force from the middle east" was coming...it was only a matter of time. The radical islamist movement was not confined to a country but was always planned to be global in reach and would have been ascendent with or without action. The question was whether the coming battle would be on Western terms. Iraq was an absolute mess post invasion but the major part of that mess is that it brought all the radical elements to the surface. The surge then proved that these radicals could be defeated through American cooperation with local sunni forces. Victory was in sight but it would only ever have been guaranteed by a prolonged American presence similar to Germany/Japan. That was the strategy and it was working. The withdrawal however brought the collapse, the horrors of Syria and from there the bombings in Istanbul.

Your ability to revise history is stunning. Well done BS.

jnimhaoileoin

dignin said:

BS44325 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

BS44325 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Anyone who thinks Bush's invasion of the Middle East wasn't tantamount to kicking the hornets nest is in serious need of some history revision- especially if they are pointing fingers at Obama who inherited the mess Bush's regime created.

It was kicking the hornets nest. The hornets were starting to sting and the nest needed to be kicked. That doesn't make W a hero or amazing. It makes him someone who recognized the status quo left in place by his father's own foreign policy was unacceptable. Pandora's box was already creaking open and he just decided to open it all the way on American terms. Again the stability you all speak of was an illusion.

There's some truth to this post, but it's lost in the suggestion that Bush recognized anything and acted as a president with a vision and a plan. He was a puppet who's masters manipulated him into becoming the worst president of the modern era.

The middle east invasion was misguided to say the least. From the nationalities of the hijackers, it was pretty clear who the enemies of the US were; however, Saudi Arabia was left alone if not somewhat protected.

And now... the west faces a somewhat galvanized force from the middle east that is rearing its head in various places at various times with no apparent end in sight.

F**king scary really.

I don't buy the puppet argument at all and history shows it not to be the case. I get that thinking W was a useles tool under the control of outside forces is AMT 101 but history just does not bare that out. The decisions he made were from a selection of only bad choices. Again that's what gets lost in here. The "galvanized force from the middle east" was coming...it was only a matter of time. The radical islamist movement was not confined to a country but was always planned to be global in reach and would have been ascendent with or without action. The question was whether the coming battle would be on Western terms. Iraq was an absolute mess post invasion but the major part of that mess is that it brought all the radical elements to the surface. The surge then proved that these radicals could be defeated through American cooperation with local sunni forces. Victory was in sight but it would only ever have been guaranteed by a prolonged American presence similar to Germany/Japan. That was the strategy and it was working. The withdrawal however brought the collapse, the horrors of Syria and from there the bombings in Istanbul.

Your ability to revise history is stunning. Well done BS.

suggesting that the moniker BS is quite appropriate seems a little childish and yet.....

Thirty Bills Unpaid

BS44325 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

BS44325 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Anyone who thinks Bush's invasion of the Middle East wasn't tantamount to kicking the hornets nest is in serious need of some history revision- especially if they are pointing fingers at Obama who inherited the mess Bush's regime created.

It was kicking the hornets nest. The hornets were starting to sting and the nest needed to be kicked. That doesn't make W a hero or amazing. It makes him someone who recognized the status quo left in place by his father's own foreign policy was unacceptable. Pandora's box was already creaking open and he just decided to open it all the way on American terms. Again the stability you all speak of was an illusion.

There's some truth to this post, but it's lost in the suggestion that Bush recognized anything and acted as a president with a vision and a plan. He was a puppet who's masters manipulated him into becoming the worst president of the modern era.

The middle east invasion was misguided to say the least. From the nationalities of the hijackers, it was pretty clear who the enemies of the US were; however, Saudi Arabia was left alone if not somewhat protected.

And now... the west faces a somewhat galvanized force from the middle east that is rearing its head in various places at various times with no apparent end in sight.

F**king scary really.

I don't buy the puppet argument at all and history shows it not to be the case. I get that thinking W was a useles tool under the control of outside forces is AMT 101 but history just does not bare that out. The decisions he made were from a selection of only bad choices. Again that's what gets lost in here. The "galvanized force from the middle east" was coming...it was only a matter of time. The radical islamist movement was not confined to a country but was always planned to be global in reach and would have been ascendent with or without action. The question was whether the coming battle would be on Western terms. Iraq was an absolute mess post invasion but the major part of that mess is that it brought all the radical elements to the surface. The surge then proved that these radicals could be defeated through American cooperation with local sunni forces. Victory was in sight but it would only ever have been guaranteed by a prolonged American presence similar to Germany/Japan. That was the strategy and it was working. The withdrawal however brought the collapse, the horrors of Syria and from there the bombings in Istanbul.

I only wish to speak to your defence of W given you've called my characterizations of him juvenile.

You seem eager to give him credit. History has shown he fumbled badly. Further, he's essentially the living embodiment of Homer Simpson spliced with Alfred E Neumann. Now... either one of these two items by themselves might lend an opportunity to defend the guy, but combined... yikes.

Good try though.

pjalive21

Godfather. said:

I have plenty to say but I'd just be met with same response I get when we discuss islamic terrorism, I just read a story on CBS News that said obama is talking about sending the troops to get the bad guy's....if it happens in the states he says we should embrace islam.....why bother ?

Godfather.

I love reading your responses...I mean that with no sarcasm...rare around these boards that someone isn't an extreme leftist

as far as this incident its crazy that this "one armed" bandit has been arrested almost a half dozen times and keeps getting released only to wreak more havoc on the world

bootlegger10

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

mcgruff10 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

It was brought up in the 'attacks nobody cares about' thread.

Extreme left wing views- such as the ones consistently defending Islamic violence- are as goofy as the extreme right wing views- such as the ones demanding deportations.

There's a middle ground that needs to be shaped and accepted.

Unfortuanty no one cares about these attacks.

Speak for yourself please

After the Paris attacks there were French flags all over facebook; where are all the Turkish flags today? I haven't seen one. Seriously, unfortunately no one cares about these attacks.

That's true, and that's the reason this entire thread was created in the first place. You're totally right. I just meant, and what I assume jnimhaoileoin meant, was that WE happen to care. I don't think we got that you were talking that generally.

Aaaaah got yA! So we agree! Nice.
It is sad that these types of attacks really don't have any sort of impact on the western world. people seriously don't give two shits.

No, and since I made this thread I've found that more often than not, folks are very comfortable making excuses as to why not, and don't feel that there is anything wrong with this..... Obviously I disagree. I am saddened by the apathy, particularly when these events really do have real meaning in our lives too, when you look at the BIG picture.

This is just human nature. Let's say you have a kid who is getting bullied at school. You are going to jump in and try to help the kid. Let's say you have a neighbor whose kid is getting bullied. You'll care and probably want to get in there and help. Let's say some kid in the next town is getting bullied at school. You don't know the kid and probably aren't going to do anything about it.

Well, the people that moved to America first (yeah, I know the Indians were here), were Western Europeans. France was on our side in the Revolutionary War. The USA and Western Europe generally followed the same religion (Christian, Catholic, etc...). We learned all about Western Europe in school growing up so we are familiar with these countries.

My point is that it isn't that we don't care about people in Turkey, it is just that the general public doesn't have that connection with Turkey like we do with Western Europe. Also, we should be realistic as Americans or Canadians that for the longest time we were the top dog on this earth. Most Europeans know English to do business with us. The USA was the cool/popular kid in school where everyone knew who the cool kid was but the cool kid wouldn't know everyone. My point is that Americans get bashed for not knowing enough about geography and not learning more languages when they don't really need to learn more languages like Europeans would and wouldn't need to know anything about Poland, Turkey or Croatia. People in those countries would obviously learn about the USA because of the power the USA has and the influence they have on those countries.

Also, we've grown to expect terrorism in the middle east (at least I have in my 35 years on this planet). A terrorist attack in France happens once or twice in a decade (although now more often) and so it is more shocking to people. If Americans thought they could fix the problem in Turkey they would be all for it. Americans are some of the most generous people in the world.

Rant over.

Godfather.

pjalive21 said:

Godfather. said:

I have plenty to say but I'd just be met with same response I get when we discuss islamic terrorism, I just read a story on CBS News that said obama is talking about sending the troops to get the bad guy's....if it happens in the states he says we should embrace islam.....why bother ?

Godfather.

I love reading your responses...I mean that with no sarcasm...rare around these boards that someone isn't an extreme leftist

as far as this incident its crazy that this "one armed" bandit has been arrested almost a half dozen times and keeps getting released only to wreak more havoc on the world

cool ! anybody that has ties to terrorism should be arrested....if you and were in my car and I had scribbled out a plan to rob a bank a day earlier and left in the glove box and a cop pulled us over and found it....sorry man but we'd be off to jail more than likely.

Godfather.

BS44325

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

BS44325 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

BS44325 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Anyone who thinks Bush's invasion of the Middle East wasn't tantamount to kicking the hornets nest is in serious need of some history revision- especially if they are pointing fingers at Obama who inherited the mess Bush's regime created.

It was kicking the hornets nest. The hornets were starting to sting and the nest needed to be kicked. That doesn't make W a hero or amazing. It makes him someone who recognized the status quo left in place by his father's own foreign policy was unacceptable. Pandora's box was already creaking open and he just decided to open it all the way on American terms. Again the stability you all speak of was an illusion.

There's some truth to this post, but it's lost in the suggestion that Bush recognized anything and acted as a president with a vision and a plan. He was a puppet who's masters manipulated him into becoming the worst president of the modern era.

The middle east invasion was misguided to say the least. From the nationalities of the hijackers, it was pretty clear who the enemies of the US were; however, Saudi Arabia was left alone if not somewhat protected.

And now... the west faces a somewhat galvanized force from the middle east that is rearing its head in various places at various times with no apparent end in sight.

F**king scary really.

I don't buy the puppet argument at all and history shows it not to be the case. I get that thinking W was a useles tool under the control of outside forces is AMT 101 but history just does not bare that out. The decisions he made were from a selection of only bad choices. Again that's what gets lost in here. The "galvanized force from the middle east" was coming...it was only a matter of time. The radical islamist movement was not confined to a country but was always planned to be global in reach and would have been ascendent with or without action. The question was whether the coming battle would be on Western terms. Iraq was an absolute mess post invasion but the major part of that mess is that it brought all the radical elements to the surface. The surge then proved that these radicals could be defeated through American cooperation with local sunni forces. Victory was in sight but it would only ever have been guaranteed by a prolonged American presence similar to Germany/Japan. That was the strategy and it was working. The withdrawal however brought the collapse, the horrors of Syria and from there the bombings in Istanbul.

I only wish to speak to your defence of W given you've called my characterizations of him juvenile.

You seem eager to give him credit. History has shown he fumbled badly. Further, he's essentially the living embodiment of Homer Simpson spliced with Alfred E Neumann. Now... either one of these two items by themselves might lend an opportunity to defend the guy, but combined... yikes.

Good try though.

Your characterization of him as a puppet is juvenile. Sorry. On the fumble though you are simply wrong as where it took place. The fumble was after the toppling of Saddam early in the second quarter. W then recovered the ball close to his own end zone late in the second. He then marched down the field with a number of surge plays and rammed that ball across the goal line just as time ran out at the half. The good guys were up at that point but the coach subbed in a new quarterback in the third who has yet to do anything except take a knee.