Anti-Intellectualism and the "Dumbing Down" of America

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  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,671
    cincybearcat said:
    Lots to discuss here, but I think the dumbing down of America is in full force because dumb people are having more kids while educated people are having less. 

    There are many things to "blame":

    Welfare system
    Education system (maybe before "free college" we should fix our high schools)
    Victim mentality
    Wage disparity between executives and line workers
    Poor sex ed & the taboo nature of sexuality in the USA
    Glorification of violence & gangs

    But the bottom line is the people who can least afford to have kids and are least prepared to raise them and are least interested in raising them and ensuring they are educated are having the most kids.

    That's so true, Cincy.  I saw that working in public schools and I see it in the book business.  As far as I can tell, it's an undeniable fact that we are breeding fewer well or even decently educated children.  Genetically, we are breeding intelligence out of our species.  Maybe it's natures way of weeding out our species all together. 

    I used to think it was mainly about our socioeconomic system breeding worker bees but as things become more automated I'm not sure that's so true anymore.  It's looking more and more like yet another problem we (speaking of the U.S. anyway) simply don't have a handle on.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • jnimhaoileoin
    jnimhaoileoin Baile Átha Cliath Posts: 2,682
    Some Harvard economists did a study that showed people who believed Trump to be less competent than Clinton were actually 6-7% more likely to vote for him, having been questioned about his competency. So really, you have to wonder about Americans
  • Go Beavers
    Go Beavers Posts: 9,618
    brianlux said:
    cincybearcat said:
    Lots to discuss here, but I think the dumbing down of America is in full force because dumb people are having more kids while educated people are having less. 

    There are many things to "blame":

    Welfare system
    Education system (maybe before "free college" we should fix our high schools)
    Victim mentality
    Wage disparity between executives and line workers
    Poor sex ed & the taboo nature of sexuality in the USA
    Glorification of violence & gangs

    But the bottom line is the people who can least afford to have kids and are least prepared to raise them and are least interested in raising them and ensuring they are educated are having the most kids.

    That's so true, Cincy.  I saw that working in public schools and I see it in the book business.  As far as I can tell, it's an undeniable fact that we are breeding fewer well or even decently educated children.  Genetically, we are breeding intelligence out of our species.  Maybe it's natures way of weeding out our species all together. 

    I used to think it was mainly about our socioeconomic system breeding worker bees but as things become more automated I'm not sure that's so true anymore.  It's looking more and more like yet another problem we (speaking of the U.S. anyway) simply don't have a handle on.
    Again, if this is a fact, then when were at our peak intellectually and what's the data to your undeniable fact say?
  • tbergs
    tbergs Posts: 10,458
    HesCalledDyer said:
    I'd take the graduation rate with a grain of salt.  Everyone passes now.  It's all but illegal to fail a kid these days.
    Agreed. Working at a college we gets HS grads in here all the time who are unable to read, write or do math at a college level and are usually closer to an 8th grade level. They have to spend their first 1 or 2 semesters just trying to meet the basic standards they should have as HS grads before they can even get in to an area of study. Most don't ever get out of those classes because of their personal living situation, lack of effort and other baggage.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,671
    Go Beavers said:
    brianlux said:
    cincybearcat said:
    Lots to discuss here, but I think the dumbing down of America is in full force because dumb people are having more kids while educated people are having less. 

    There are many things to "blame":

    Welfare system
    Education system (maybe before "free college" we should fix our high schools)
    Victim mentality
    Wage disparity between executives and line workers
    Poor sex ed & the taboo nature of sexuality in the USA
    Glorification of violence & gangs

    But the bottom line is the people who can least afford to have kids and are least prepared to raise them and are least interested in raising them and ensuring they are educated are having the most kids.

    That's so true, Cincy.  I saw that working in public schools and I see it in the book business.  As far as I can tell, it's an undeniable fact that we are breeding fewer well or even decently educated children.  Genetically, we are breeding intelligence out of our species.  Maybe it's natures way of weeding out our species all together. 

    I used to think it was mainly about our socioeconomic system breeding worker bees but as things become more automated I'm not sure that's so true anymore.  It's looking more and more like yet another problem we (speaking of the U.S. anyway) simply don't have a handle on.
    Again, if this is a fact, then when were at our peak intellectually and what's the data to your undeniable fact say?
    Busted.  :lol:
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,880
    Go Beavers said:
    Before this goes into the 'get off my lawn' ditch, does anyone have data showing that we're getting dumber over time? 
    Just walk around and talk to people ;)
    hippiemom = goodness
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,880
    Go Beavers said:
    brianlux said:
    cincybearcat said:
    Lots to discuss here, but I think the dumbing down of America is in full force because dumb people are having more kids while educated people are having less. 

    There are many things to "blame":

    Welfare system
    Education system (maybe before "free college" we should fix our high schools)
    Victim mentality
    Wage disparity between executives and line workers
    Poor sex ed & the taboo nature of sexuality in the USA
    Glorification of violence & gangs

    But the bottom line is the people who can least afford to have kids and are least prepared to raise them and are least interested in raising them and ensuring they are educated are having the most kids.

    That's so true, Cincy.  I saw that working in public schools and I see it in the book business.  As far as I can tell, it's an undeniable fact that we are breeding fewer well or even decently educated children.  Genetically, we are breeding intelligence out of our species.  Maybe it's natures way of weeding out our species all together. 

    I used to think it was mainly about our socioeconomic system breeding worker bees but as things become more automated I'm not sure that's so true anymore.  It's looking more and more like yet another problem we (speaking of the U.S. anyway) simply don't have a handle on.
    Again, if this is a fact, then when were at our peak intellectually and what's the data to your undeniable fact say?
    From way back in 2011:

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/may/9/education-level-inversely-related-to-childbearing/


    hippiemom = goodness
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,880
    Although the trend may be changing....I haven;t been paying attention to specific in a while.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Go Beavers
    Go Beavers Posts: 9,618
    If you would've stayed in school you'd know that wouldn't be a vald sample!
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,671
    I hate to say it (because it wish it weren't true) but Cincy's suggestion too"Just walk around and talk to people" is what convinces me the U.S. as a nation is dumbing down.  True, I don't have facts to support it but empirical evidence convinces me that we're not getting any smarter. 

    Convince me I'm wrong, please!
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • Go Beavers
    Go Beavers Posts: 9,618
    They have to recalibrate the IQ test every so often, because what is average now would be above average in the past. 

    Walk around in 1968 and ask people where Vietnam is. 
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    Go Beavers said:
    They have to recalibrate the IQ test every so often, because what is average now would be above average in the past. 

    Walk around in 1968 and ask people where Vietnam is. 
    That isn't an example of raw intellectual ability, though. That's an example of fund of knowledge, which is very dependent on educational achievement and other social factors like parental support for education and reading.
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • PJfanwillneverleave1
    PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    edited June 2017
    Go Beavers said:
    If you would've stayed in school you'd know that wouldn't be a vald sample!

    It's pretty funny when someone lectures about staying in school with a spelling error!
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    edited June 2017
    PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
    Go Beavers said:
    If you would've stayed in school you'd know that wouldn't be a vald sample!

    It's pretty funny when someone lectures about staying in school with a spelling error!
    Yeah, well, "vald" is Old Norse for "power", so Go Beavers is talking about having a powerful sample. As he should. 

    So there :). 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Go Beavers
    Go Beavers Posts: 9,618
    oftenreading said:
    Go Beavers said:
    They have to recalibrate the IQ test every so often, because what is average now would be above average in the past. 

    Walk around in 1968 and ask people where Vietnam is. 
    That isn't an example of raw intellectual ability, though. That's an example of fund of knowledge, which is very dependent on educational achievement and other social factors like parental support for education and reading.
    The topic is dumbing down. If we get into the debate about defining what's smart and what's dumb, it will sidetrack the thread. It is an interesting topic, though. I just gave two examples to support my position that we're not getting dumber. 
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    Go Beavers said:
    oftenreading said:
    Go Beavers said:
    They have to recalibrate the IQ test every so often, because what is average now would be above average in the past. 

    Walk around in 1968 and ask people where Vietnam is. 
    That isn't an example of raw intellectual ability, though. That's an example of fund of knowledge, which is very dependent on educational achievement and other social factors like parental support for education and reading.
    The topic is dumbing down. If we get into the debate about defining what's smart and what's dumb, it will sidetrack the thread. It is an interesting topic, though. I just gave two examples to support my position that we're not getting dumber. 
    I assumed you meant your example to relate to your statement about IQ scores. Maybe I was wrong, but was just pointing out that fund of knowledge and IQ are two very different things. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Go Beavers
    Go Beavers Posts: 9,618
    Do people think the general fund of knowledge is less?
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    Go Beavers said:
    Do people think the general fund of knowledge is less?
    By "people" did you mean me? :). I'm not arguing the case that society has been dumbed down; I just value precision in how we discuss it. 

    It's a good question, though. People certainly know different information than they did 40 or even 20 years ago. Do they know more information, though? And, more to the point, so they know more information of substance or more information about trivial matters? I don't know. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Go Beavers
    Go Beavers Posts: 9,618
    I meant people as in whomever wants to chime in. 

    Take school curriculums for example. When I was in high school in the 80's, the advanced kids took algebra in the 8th grade. Now the regular kids take it in the 8th grade. 
  • ponytd
    ponytd Nashville Posts: 671
    Go Beavers said:
    ponytd said:
    Go Beavers said:
    Before this goes into the 'get off my lawn' ditch, does anyone have data showing that we're getting dumber over time? 
    I think jeffbr's post about where people believe chocolate milk comes from is a good start for some data
    That's a single question. We need longitudinal data to support the hypothesis. Otherwise, looking at the answers to single questions and then drawing a conclusion that we're in a downward trend would be 'dumb'.    
    Oh I know. but geez, that is really disheartening to realize that people actually believe that.

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