It s amazing how democrats were against the patriot act because it took away some of our constitutional right but in regard to gun control they are ok with taking away your right to due process. And then you can flip it around for the republicans. God I d love a third party!!!
but it's not taking away your constitutional right. no one is taking away guns here.
it's taking away your fifth amendment right of due process. guilty until proven innocent.
that's a stretch.
how s it a stretch? you have a constitutional right to buy a gun. by being on some government "list" you aren't able to buy one even though you aren't guilty of anything. i'm not a big fan of government lists.
It s amazing how democrats were against the patriot act because it took away some of our constitutional right but in regard to gun control they are ok with taking away your right to due process. And then you can flip it around for the republicans. God I d love a third party!!!
but it's not taking away your constitutional right. no one is taking away guns here.
it's taking away your fifth amendment right of due process. guilty until proven innocent.
that's a stretch.
how s it a stretch? you have a constitutional right to buy a gun. by being on some government "list" you aren't able to buy one even though you aren't guilty of anything. i'm not a big fan of government lists.
you don't think people are on those government lists for good reason? they don't just put them on lists willy nilly.
again, a constitutional right is law. laws can be changed/ammended/subject to conditions. it's not written in stone.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
96 Randall's Island II
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
obviously, as with any human process, there will be errors. there would have to be an appeal process that is dealt with in a very quick manner. otherwise people would have every right to be pissed. especially if someone was on a "no buy list" and then got mowed down by a robbery or something, where it could be argued they wouldn't have died/been injured if they had been allowed to buy their choice of army-grade weaponry.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
0
g under p
Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,199
It s amazing how democrats were against the patriot act because it took away some of our constitutional right but in regard to gun control they are ok with taking away your right to due process. And then you can flip it around for the republicans. God I d love a third party!!!
but it's not taking away your constitutional right. no one is taking away guns here.
it's taking away your fifth amendment right of due process. guilty until proven innocent.
that's a stretch.
how s it a stretch? you have a constitutional right to buy a gun. by being on some government "list" you aren't able to buy one even though you aren't guilty of anything. i'm not a big fan of government lists.
you don't think people are on those government lists for good reason? they don't just put them on lists willy nilly.
again, a constitutional right is law. laws can be changed/ammended/subject to conditions. it's not written in stone.
Also how about those who are placed on the no fly list have the ability to appeal the government's decision. Given the chance to defend themselves in court as they why they should not be on that list.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Yeah, if there was some sort of due process required to put someone on the no fly list, then I'd have no objection at all with this legislation. But people can be put on the list for a variety of reasons including visiting certain countries, saying things on the Internet, or even clerical mistakes. One college kid spent 6 years in a lawsuit to get himself removed. He was placed on the list because an FBI employee had checked the wrong box on some form. I'm as opposed to this nonsense as I am to the Patriot Act in general. Complete disregard for constitutional rights. One of the bills regarding background check expansion sounds good as well, but I don't know how you get around HIIPA laws to disclose mental illness. I'm absolutely in favor of denying gun sales to anyone with a mental illness, but the only way we're going to know that they're mentally ill is if they've declared that themselves, or if they'd been involuntarily committed. The other background check bill should have passed, requiring background checks for gun show purchases, and online purchases. We already have that law in my state, and it shouldn't be an issue to do this nationally. Not sure why there's push back on this other than petty partisan politics.
The Republicans need to quit blowing the NRA, and the Dems need to pull up their panties and craft lawful and meaningful legislation, rather than this symbolic BS that they know can't work and won't help.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
It s amazing how democrats were against the patriot act because it took away some of our constitutional right but in regard to gun control they are ok with taking away your right to due process. And then you can flip it around for the republicans. God I d love a third party!!!
That doesn't make sense. the Democrats are fight FOR due process when it comes to buying guns.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
It s amazing how democrats were against the patriot act because it took away some of our constitutional right but in regard to gun control they are ok with taking away your right to due process. And then you can flip it around for the republicans. God I d love a third party!!!
That doesn't make sense. the Democrats are fight FOR due process when it comes to buying guns.
No they re not. You are put on a no fly list for a variety of reasons, some of which can be bogus. If you are then put on the list you can not legally buy a firearm until you are off the list.
Clinton already had a ban and it did nothing to reduce gun violence and gun deaths. Allocate resources to enforce current gun laws and prosecute those who violate them as opposed to doing literally nothing but making more laws.
It s amazing how democrats were against the patriot act because it took away some of our constitutional right but in regard to gun control they are ok with taking away your right to due process. And then you can flip it around for the republicans. God I d love a third party!!!
That doesn't make sense. the Democrats are fight FOR due process when it comes to buying guns.
No they re not. You are put on a no fly list for a variety of reasons, some of which can be bogus. If you are then put on the list you can not legally buy a firearm until you are off the list.
But the debate isn't about how no-fly lists are compiled. That is a separate debate. I doubt there is anyone who actually wants people who don't belong on a no-fly list to be on a no-fly list. So that issue does indeed need to be confronted.... as a completely separate issue. You don't prevent gun control because you are worried that totally independent criminal profiling sucks. You fix the shitty criminal profiling system so that it work better with good gun legislation. No way should gun legislation be delayed because people are fumbling around with no-fly lists, mostly because they don't bother to note the differences between people named Mohammad Sallah or whatever. And FWIW, I don't believe for one second that Republicans would be any more likely to pass legislation if no-fly lists were 100% accurate. This argument is yet another red herring coming from the right. If every last person prevented from buying guns under such legislation were proven to be deserving of being on these lists, the Republicans would still find a reason not to pass the legislation.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
It s amazing how democrats were against the patriot act because it took away some of our constitutional right but in regard to gun control they are ok with taking away your right to due process. And then you can flip it around for the republicans. God I d love a third party!!!
That doesn't make sense. the Democrats are fight FOR due process when it comes to buying guns.
No they re not. You are put on a no fly list for a variety of reasons, some of which can be bogus. If you are then put on the list you can not legally buy a firearm until you are off the list.
But the debate isn't about how no-fly lists are compiled. That is a separate debate. I doubt there is anyone who actually wants people who don't belong on a no-fly list to be on a no-fly list. So that issue does indeed need to be confronted.... as a completely separate issue. You don't prevent gun control because you are worried that totally independent criminal profiling sucks. You fix the shitty criminal profiling system so that it work better with good gun legislation. No way should gun legislation be delayed because people are fumbling around with no-fly lists, mostly because they don't bother to note the differences between people named Mohammad Sallah or whatever. And FWIW, I don't believe for one second that Republicans would be any more likely to pass legislation if no-fly lists were 100% accurate. This argument is yet another red herring coming from the right.
I definitely won't argue with your last couple of sentences. I agree with you on those points. But I am also opposed to using the no fly list as a way to deny someone their constitutional rights until we know that the no fly list has been compiled using some form of due process. I'm not a Republican, and have no interest in their party politics. I am a libertarian, and am always opposed to the feds trying to take away rights and liberties. Clean up the no fly list, and THEN bring the legislation to the floor and it gets two thumbs up from me. To do it the other way around would be like rounding up every brown person you see into an internment camp, and then sorting through them to determine who should be deported, and who should be freed. It would be an ass backward approach and would deny many innocent people rights and protections they are entitled to.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
While I agree with you on principle, I don't think that method works in reality, because doing it that way, with the way the US government now functions, literally nothing will EVER get done. Something has to move forward, or, better yet, everything needs to move forward at the same time. To delay gun legislation in order to wait for the Patriot Act to be a perfect Act (or a different national security Act altogether) that helps everyone and harms no one (besides terrorists and wackos) would be to delay gun legislation FOREVER. That is definitely NOT the best option IMO. I, and I would hope every reasonable person in the world, would prefer for some people to not be able to very easily buy a fucking gun even though maybe they should have been able to under some very imperfect laws and a painfully outdated constitutional amendment, than for even one more person to be gunned down by someone who should not have been able to buy a gun but did. What you are saying is that the right for Americans to buy guns is MORE IMPORTANT THAT HUMAN LIVES. Is more important than the right of Americans to not be murdered by a gun-toting lunatic. I just do not think that's true.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
it's less of a gun issue and more of a control issue, think about why the government would want to disarm it's citizens, I know I know they don't want your gun's...but once they pass this no fly list or what ever it is do you think it will stop there ? people have been killing each other since the beginning of time with or without guns so why dose our government put so much attention on gun regulations ?...control, if you disarm the responsible citizens all you need to do next is disarm criminals (and that wont be as hard as you might think)
it's less of a gun issue and more of a control issue, think about why the government would want to disarm it's citizens, I know I know they don't want your gun's...but once they pass this no fly list or what ever it is do you think it will stop there ? people have been killing each other since the beginning of time with or without guns so why dose our government put so much attention on gun regulations ?...control, if you disarm the responsible citizens all you need to do next is disarm criminals (and that wont be as hard as you might think)
Godfather.
wrong. this was never an issue until people starting mowing hoards of innocents down with "assault" weapons.
this "slippery slope" argument is weak. give me another state/federal regulation that started small and snowballed from there. the US government will never be, and has never been, that all-powerful, not with the strict partisanship that exists. if that ceases to exist, then that's the will of the people. but that won't happen in either of our lifetimes, if ever. as long as time has existed, there has always been opposing political sides in every nation/kingdom/cave. it's unavoidable.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
it's less of a gun issue and more of a control issue, think about why the government would want to disarm it's citizens, I know I know they don't want your gun's...but once they pass this no fly list or what ever it is do you think it will stop there ? people have been killing each other since the beginning of time with or without guns so why dose our government put so much attention on gun regulations ?...control, if you disarm the responsible citizens all you need to do next is disarm criminals (and that wont be as hard as you might think)
Godfather.
and if it's so easy to disarm criminals, then why are you against it?
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
who said I was against disarming criminals ? Hitler wiped thousands with gas after he disarmed them, I'm not comparing Obama or Hillary to Hitler but I am pointing out that guns were confiscated before the hell that came.
who said I was against disarming criminals ? Hitler wiped thousands with gas after he disarmed them, I'm not comparing Obama or Hillary to Hitler but I am pointing out that guns were confiscated before the hell that came.
Godfather.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
who said I was against disarming criminals ? Hitler wiped thousands with gas after he disarmed them, I'm not comparing Obama or Hillary to Hitler but I am pointing out that guns were confiscated before the hell that came.
Godfather.
OH BOY.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
who said I was against disarming criminals ? Hitler wiped thousands with gas after he disarmed them, I'm not comparing Obama or Hillary to Hitler but I am pointing out that guns were confiscated before the hell that came.
Godfather.
I'll rephrase: if you think it's so easy to disarm criminals, why hasn't it been done?
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
who said I was against disarming criminals ? Hitler wiped thousands with gas after he disarmed them, I'm not comparing Obama or Hillary to Hitler but I am pointing out that guns were confiscated before the hell that came.
Godfather.
OH BOY.
internet "facts" strike again. what was the image.on the meme you pulled this from?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
It s amazing how democrats were against the patriot act because it took away some of our constitutional right but in regard to gun control they are ok with taking away your right to due process. And then you can flip it around for the republicans. God I d love a third party!!!
but it's not taking away your constitutional right. no one is taking away guns here.
it's taking away your fifth amendment right of due process. guilty until proven innocent.
that's a stretch.
how s it a stretch? you have a constitutional right to buy a gun. by being on some government "list" you aren't able to buy one even though you aren't guilty of anything. i'm not a big fan of government lists.
I also see that as a problem. The one thing government agencies have in common with our elected officials is that they are not very good at their jobs.
I don't understand why there isn't training and certification required just like a drivers license.
who said I was against disarming criminals ? Hitler wiped thousands with gas after he disarmed them, I'm not comparing Obama or Hillary to Hitler but I am pointing out that guns were confiscated before the hell that came.
Godfather.
OH BOY.
internet "facts" strike again. what was the image.on the meme you pulled this from?
huh??
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
who said I was against disarming criminals ? Hitler wiped thousands with gas after he disarmed them, I'm not comparing Obama or Hillary to Hitler but I am pointing out that guns were confiscated before the hell that came.
Godfather.
OH BOY.
internet "facts" strike again. what was the image.on the meme you pulled this from?
huh??
hes pulling bullshit from fb memes, fox,the nra,brietbart.....
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I love statistics: Further illustrating the small role so-called assault weapons play in crime, FBI data shows that 323 murders were committed with rifles of any kind in 2011. In comparison, 496 murders were committed with hammers and clubs, and 1,694 murders were perpetrated with knives.
I love statistics: Further illustrating the small role so-called assault weapons play in crime, FBI data shows that 323 murders were committed with rifles of any kind in 2011. In comparison, 496 murders were committed with hammers and clubs, and 1,694 murders were perpetrated with knives.
I'd like to see you rattle off 2011 stats to the faces of victims of Sandy Hook, Aurora, CO, Orlando, San Bernardino, etc.
You have (what seems to me to be) a near obsessive reverence for world wars and 9/11 but when horrific attacks occur with military style weapons you seem to brush it off pretty easily.
I love statistics: Further illustrating the small role so-called assault weapons play in crime, FBI data shows that 323 murders were committed with rifles of any kind in 2011. In comparison, 496 murders were committed with hammers and clubs, and 1,694 murders were perpetrated with knives.
I'd like to see you rattle off 2011 stats to the faces of victims of Sandy Hook, Aurora, CO, Orlando, San Bernardino, etc.
You have (what seems to me to be) a near obsessive reverence for world wars and 9/11 but when horrific attacks occur with military style weapons you seem to brush it off pretty easily.
I have been teaching history for 15 years (with a BA in history and education) and world war 2 is my favorite topic to teach. my grandfather landed at utah beach and my uncle worked on p-47's and then was later in the OSS which turned into the CIA. So yeah I think it's a fascinating topic. To me it's a time period where it really was good vs. evil. I also teach holocaust/genocide for over a month in an effort to teach empathy to 100 8th graders a year.
I don't ever recall being obsessed with 9/11 but it was probably one of the worst days in American history. Like many other americans I lost some friends that day and eventually backed afghanistan but couldn't get behind Iraq. Again for the past 15 years I've been teaching about that day to my classes.
I don't brush off horrific attacks with "assault" weapons at all, I merely showed statistics and counter arguments to keep these weapons in the hands of law abiding citizens. I showed the 2011 statistics to show people that rifles aren't really the problem out there. You figure there have been let's say ten (which is high) instances where an ar-15 type weapon was used in a "massacre". There are anywhere from 3 to 6 million ar-15's in the hands of americans; that means literally (if you use 3 million as your number which is way low) 99.99999999% of those weapons were not used in these horrible massacres that the news media spins 24 hours a day.
Again I'm for any sort of background check you want to give me, just don't ban anything. To me an ar-15 is a weapon that you can defend your family with just in case something horrific happens. Without going into detail I had a threat against my family so obviously I feel very strongly about this topic.
Finally, I'm a father of five kids so don't tell me what I brush off pretty easily. I couldn't imagine what those parents in newtown went through. To lose a kid is the ultimate nightmare for a parent.
who said I was against disarming criminals ? Hitler wiped thousands with gas after he disarmed them, I'm not comparing Obama or Hillary to Hitler but I am pointing out that guns were confiscated before the hell that came.
Godfather.
i can't imagine living in the crazy delusional world that your mind clearly occupies.
Comments
again, a constitutional right is law. laws can be changed/ammended/subject to conditions. it's not written in stone.
-EV 8/14/93
http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/07/politics/no-fly-mistakes-cat-stevens-ted-kennedy-john-lewis/
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
-EV 8/14/93
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
The Republicans need to quit blowing the NRA, and the Dems need to pull up their panties and craft lawful and meaningful legislation, rather than this symbolic BS that they know can't work and won't help.
Godfather.
Godfather.
this "slippery slope" argument is weak. give me another state/federal regulation that started small and snowballed from there. the US government will never be, and has never been, that all-powerful, not with the strict partisanship that exists. if that ceases to exist, then that's the will of the people. but that won't happen in either of our lifetimes, if ever. as long as time has existed, there has always been opposing political sides in every nation/kingdom/cave. it's unavoidable.
-EV 8/14/93
-EV 8/14/93
Hitler wiped thousands with gas after he disarmed them, I'm not comparing Obama or Hillary to Hitler but I am pointing out that guns were confiscated before the hell that came.
Godfather.
-EV 8/14/93
-EV 8/14/93
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I don't understand why there isn't training and certification required just like a drivers license.
-EV 8/14/93
http://www.salon.com/2013/01/11/stop_talking_about_hitler/#
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
You have (what seems to me to be) a near obsessive reverence for world wars and 9/11 but when horrific attacks occur with military style weapons you seem to brush it off pretty easily.
I don't ever recall being obsessed with 9/11 but it was probably one of the worst days in American history. Like many other americans I lost some friends that day and eventually backed afghanistan but couldn't get behind Iraq. Again for the past 15 years I've been teaching about that day to my classes.
I don't brush off horrific attacks with "assault" weapons at all, I merely showed statistics and counter arguments to keep these weapons in the hands of law abiding citizens. I showed the 2011 statistics to show people that rifles aren't really the problem out there. You figure there have been let's say ten (which is high) instances where an ar-15 type weapon was used in a "massacre". There are anywhere from 3 to 6 million ar-15's in the hands of americans; that means literally (if you use 3 million as your number which is way low) 99.99999999% of those weapons were not used in these horrible massacres that the news media spins 24 hours a day.
Again I'm for any sort of background check you want to give me, just don't ban anything. To me an ar-15 is a weapon that you can defend your family with just in case something horrific happens. Without going into detail I had a threat against my family so obviously I feel very strongly about this topic.
Finally, I'm a father of five kids so don't tell me what I brush off pretty easily. I couldn't imagine what those parents in newtown went through. To lose a kid is the ultimate nightmare for a parent.