.

PJ_Soul

Free said:

The word "supernatural" throws me. Perhaps if it were replaced with the word "spiritual"...

That is a completely different topic altogether.

inmyNC

brianlux said:

inmyNC said:

An point of view...................................... All things natural are perfect. The way a maple seed helicopters away from its host tree. The way pollination happens with the instinctive cooperation of bees. All these things are perfect. The things that are imperfect are humans and all we create. We are given emotions and the strongest of which is love. No other living thing on earth has that gift. Our buildings are square yet nothing in nature is square. We destroy our earth, but in time nature does in fact take back. That said we humans are different then everything else that exist. Does that not make us special? Why is this so? Well, I'm not sure. I tend to believe there's something higher then what we can see. Is it god? Again, I'm unsure .. Truth is I don't think we are supposed to know. I find organized religion to somewhat pretentious. At least that is how I would feel if I were involved with a certain religion. I don't think of those whom are devoted to there religions are wrong in there beliefs because its their belief. Its their heart and mind which are two very natural things. You don't have to except any theology in order to be moral or to love...

I like this too. I agree that whatever is beyond the knowing, what ever it is that gives humans a conscience, whatever it is that set all this in motion may one day be explainable (through science) but I hope it is not. My wish is that humans would learn to accept that those things are mysterious and marvelous and don't need to be defined by some made up story about a god.

One of my favorite books is The Lost Gospel of the Earth by Tome Hayden. It is a call to focus our beliefs on what nature shows us and, without being preachy about it, he illustrates how closely Native American spirituality reflects what is in nature more so than most other religions. If we made nature our focus and learned to live within the laws of nature and ecology we would be much healthier and more content.

Have not heard of that book but I'm interested in reading it. Thanks for mentioning it.

brianlux

inmyNC said:

brianlux said:

inmyNC said:

An point of view...................................... All things natural are perfect. The way a maple seed helicopters away from its host tree. The way pollination happens with the instinctive cooperation of bees. All these things are perfect. The things that are imperfect are humans and all we create. We are given emotions and the strongest of which is love. No other living thing on earth has that gift. Our buildings are square yet nothing in nature is square. We destroy our earth, but in time nature does in fact take back. That said we humans are different then everything else that exist. Does that not make us special? Why is this so? Well, I'm not sure. I tend to believe there's something higher then what we can see. Is it god? Again, I'm unsure .. Truth is I don't think we are supposed to know. I find organized religion to somewhat pretentious. At least that is how I would feel if I were involved with a certain religion. I don't think of those whom are devoted to there religions are wrong in there beliefs because its their belief. Its their heart and mind which are two very natural things. You don't have to except any theology in order to be moral or to love...

I like this too. I agree that whatever is beyond the knowing, what ever it is that gives humans a conscience, whatever it is that set all this in motion may one day be explainable (through science) but I hope it is not. My wish is that humans would learn to accept that those things are mysterious and marvelous and don't need to be defined by some made up story about a god.

One of my favorite books is The Lost Gospel of the Earth by Tome Hayden. It is a call to focus our beliefs on what nature shows us and, without being preachy about it, he illustrates how closely Native American spirituality reflects what is in nature more so than most other religions. If we made nature our focus and learned to live within the laws of nature and ecology we would be much healthier and more content.

Have not heard of that book but I'm interested in reading it. Thanks for mentioning it.

It's great and there's a 2006 updated version. My guess is you would like it a lot.

I met Hayden many years ago and then just last year ran into him in an elevator in the capitol building in Sacramento. I said "Hi," and his aides (he is now in a wheel chair as a result of a stroke) kind of tried to shield him from me. When I said, "I love your book," he looked up and said, "Oh, thanks!". Really a cool guy. Currently is the director of the Peace and Justice Resource Center in Culver City, CA.

Free

inmyNC said:

An point of view...................................... All things natural are perfect. The way a maple seed helicopters away from its host tree. The way pollination happens with the instinctive cooperation of bees. All these things are perfect. The things that are imperfect are humans and all we create. We are given emotions and the strongest of which is love. No other living thing on earth has that gift. Our buildings are square yet nothing in nature is square. We destroy our earth, but in time nature does in fact take back. That said we humans are different then everything else that exist. Does that not make us special? Why is this so? Well, I'm not sure. I tend to believe there's something higher then what we can see. Is it god? Again, I'm unsure .. Truth is I don't think we are supposed to know. I find organized religion to somewhat pretentious. At least that is how I would feel if I were involved with a certain religion. I don't think of those whom are devoted to there religions are wrong in there beliefs because its their belief. Its their heart and mind which are two very natural things. You don't have to except any theology in order to be moral or to love...

Believe in the universe inmyNC. From what you write, you are just beginning to wake up to conciousness. Everything is energy. We are all connected.

Free

brianlux said:

inmyNC said:

An point of view...................................... All things natural are perfect. The way a maple seed helicopters away from its host tree. The way pollination happens with the instinctive cooperation of bees. All these things are perfect. The things that are imperfect are humans and all we create. We are given emotions and the strongest of which is love. No other living thing on earth has that gift. Our buildings are square yet nothing in nature is square. We destroy our earth, but in time nature does in fact take back. That said we humans are different then everything else that exist. Does that not make us special? Why is this so? Well, I'm not sure. I tend to believe there's something higher then what we can see. Is it god? Again, I'm unsure .. Truth is I don't think we are supposed to know. I find organized religion to somewhat pretentious. At least that is how I would feel if I were involved with a certain religion. I don't think of those whom are devoted to there religions are wrong in there beliefs because its their belief. Its their heart and mind which are two very natural things. You don't have to except any theology in order to be moral or to love...

I like this too. I agree that whatever is beyond the knowing, what ever it is that gives humans a conscience, whatever it is that set all this in motion may one day be explainable (through science) but I hope it is not. My wish is that humans would learn to accept that those things are mysterious and marvelous and don't need to be defined by some made up story about a god.

One of my favorite books is The Lost Gospel of the Earth by Tome Hayden. It is a call to focus our beliefs on what nature shows us and, without being preachy about it, he illustrates how closely Native American spirituality reflects what is in nature more so than most other religions. If we made nature our focus and learned to live within the laws of nature and ecology we would be much healthier and more content.

That book sounds interesting.

amethgr8

I think humans are (mostly) perfect as we are a product of nature and back in caveman days, very much part of the Eco system. Social conditioning among other influences, good and bad, results in humans that have trouble accepting ourselves as part of nature and not the king of it.

I agree we don't need religion to be good to others.

The same matter that makes a star in the sky makes human beings.

DarthMaeglin

Ready for a post that's likely as confusing and nonsensical as the OP's? Spark up those bowls, folks, lol.

For awhile now, I've been differentiating between religion and faith, as a non-religious (or non-practising) Christian.

Religion is the store front to get new people to buy into a given dogma or philosophy, which would presumably lead them to faith, what the OP's calling belief in the supernatural.

My understanding's been that most faiths developed as a means to explain natural (and unnatural) occurrences, leading to the development of religions as a means to ensure the survival of the most members of a given tribe (hence dietary restrictions and the like).

Also, just because I worship one deity, it doesn't mean I disregard other belief systems, or acknowledge that, in the end, other faiths might be the "right one." I've also seen nothing in science that utterly precludes the possibilities of anything supernatural. We're still in the infancy of our understanding of the universe (if we're even yet out of the womb in that sense).

As I see it, most now worship at the altar of Science, though the vast majority have never (and likely will never) see an atom or a molecule.

In a recent discussion with my brother and sister-in-law, she refused to see the Bible as anything but a book written by men, while I, as a believer, see it as a holy book, often with God's own words spoken (mistranslations over the millennia notwithstanding, obviously). In the end, we had to disagree, in part because, since she doesn't believe in a god, she seemingly couldn't wrap her head around my point of view.

Interestingly, my pshrink recently suggested to me (he's an admittedly born-again Judaic(?)) that with fewer people getting spiritual satisfaction through religion and faith, causes such as the environment and social justice have filled that role, along with political beliefs. I would suggest the OP "worships" Darwinian theory as much as I claim Christianity as my core belief system. I think this might help explain why many debates and discussions seem to end in agreement to disagree.

Just another fool's point of view, lol.

brianlux

Ahhh! Purity of spirit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dk-obVk9SE

inmyNC

DarthMaeglin said:

Ready for a post that's likely as confusing and nonsensical as the OP's? Spark up those bowls, folks, lol.

For awhile now, I've been differentiating between religion and faith, as a non-religious (or non-practising) Christian.

Religion is the store front to get new people to buy into a given dogma or philosophy, which would presumably lead them to faith, what the OP's calling belief in the supernatural.

My understanding's been that most faiths developed as a means to explain natural (and unnatural) occurrences, leading to the development of religions as a means to ensure the survival of the most members of a given tribe (hence dietary restrictions and the like).

Also, just because I worship one deity, it doesn't mean I disregard other belief systems, or acknowledge that, in the end, other faiths might be the "right one." I've also seen nothing in science that utterly precludes the possibilities of anything supernatural. We're still in the infancy of our understanding of the universe (if we're even yet out of the womb in that sense).

As I see it, most now worship at the altar of Science, though the vast majority have never (and likely will never) see an atom or a molecule.

In a recent discussion with my brother and sister-in-law, she refused to see the Bible as anything but a book written by men, while I, as a believer, see it as a holy book, often with God's own words spoken (mistranslations over the millennia notwithstanding, obviously). In the end, we had to disagree, in part because, since she doesn't believe in a god, she seemingly couldn't wrap her head around my point of view.

Interestingly, my pshrink recently suggested to me (he's an admittedly born-again Judaic(?)) that with fewer people getting spiritual satisfaction through religion and faith, causes such as the environment and social justice have filled that role, along with political beliefs. I would suggest the OP "worships" Darwinian theory as much as I claim Christianity as my core belief system. I think this might help explain why many debates and discussions seem to end in agreement to disagree.

Just another fool's point of view, lol.

Nothing foolish about your point of view. Once I heard , can't remember where or when, someone answer a question on why they chose Christianity , and their answer was " Cause it makes me feel good".... I thought how simplistic yet real. Whomever said that gave the best answer I think one could give.

chadwick

hello

mace1229

HughFreakingDillon said:

callen said:

Find it fascinating that when ever religion is brought up humans get irrational in responding. Even on a board sponsored by a band openly critical of religion those that speak against it are shunned like leapers.

hedonist said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Opinion -
On Sympathy, Empathy, everybody has felt deep grief at the sight or the thought of a suffering individual or even another species. That does seem to be something in humanity, to feel empathy with suffering and as a Darwinian I can offer explanations for that but I won't do it now because there is not enough characters allowed to type.
It is a travesty that it has somehow become widely accepted that if you throw out religion you throw out The Good Samaritan, the weeping at Shakespeare or at a Schubert Quartet. It has nothing to do with religion in the sense of the supernatural, of course you can redefine religion as covering all these emotional artistic aspects. In that case there is no contest but that is confusing and we need to define religion as a belief in something supernatural. You get your beliefs not from evidence but from faith, revelation, tradition, scripture and authority. All these are bad reasons to believe anything. Evidence is the only reason to believe something.
We are all in life together and are all capable of the same kinds of good emotions/actions whether we are religious or not. We can't give religion credit for the good things in humanity they are a part of humanity along with the bad whether you are religious or not.

Jesus, I make more sense than this after two bong hits.

Put down the bong for week and reread rather than attack poster that had some great thoughts. Poster started it as saying "this is my opinion" and then shared thoughts. Posts like this add to the boards enjoyment. Yours not so much.

the OP made zero sense to me either, callen.

Not that I agree, I just have a short attention span so I scroll down to find the shortest posts to read. I read this one.

brianlux

I don't know. I don't think PJF's post is all that whackadoo. The first paragraph alone is very tied to the theories of E. O. Wilson as presented in his Sociobiology: The New Synthesis- the whole "biological understanding of human nature" thing.

Read the O.P. first paragraph and then check out what Harvard U. Press says about Sociobiology:

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674002357

Later I'll try to digest the more spiritual/religious implications of the O.P.