Canadian Politics Redux

lukin2006

Grieving Ontario mother livid after three men get manslaughter plea deal for killing and dismembering her son

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/grieving-ontario-mother-livid-after-three-men-get-manslaughter-plea-deal-for-killing-and-dismembering-her-son

Ridiculous to say the least...

Thirty Bills Unpaid

lukin2006 said:

Grieving Ontario mother livid after three men get manslaughter plea deal for killing and dismembering her son

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/grieving-ontario-mother-livid-after-three-men-get-manslaughter-plea-deal-for-killing-and-dismembering-her-son

Ridiculous to say the least...

There's people around here that will rejoice. "It wasn't their fault. They were really high you know."

But yes... a f**king joke. Canada's penal system is pathetic. It never ends.

oftenreading

I don't believe anyone will rejoice, Thirty. I don't believe anyone here has ever said "it wasn't their fault, they were really high".

The Crown would only agree to a plea bargain of this nature if they are fairly sure they won't get a conviction on the murder charges. They're not going to release the full reasons, but unfortunately that's the reality. They either don't have enough evidence, or the case is tainted in some way. It could be one of a number of things, like a key witness who was found to be lying, or a witness who has disappeared. When so many people in the case were already involved in that subculture of using/dealing and the illegal activities that are associated with it, a clean case is very difficult because none of them want the police involved in their business.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Often...

I guess I speak to the sympathetic voice that rears itself on here when speaking to shitheads like these assholes.

From the story we know... it seems like guilt is obvious. They killed and dismembered some guy. The problem is that courts... influenced by the mentality I don't care for so much... would likely absolve them of their guilt because 'they were high and therefore not responsible'.

That's what you need to do in Canada- Hyuk Hyuk eh go figure eh- if you want to kill someone: take drugs before you murder someone or claim that you were really sad that day... and the courts will weep, pardon your crime, and give you a ride to Starbucks for a frappuccino.

All supported by the voice or mentality I take exception to.

I'm short... f**k people who kill others and mutilate them afterwards. There's... quite simply... no excuse. None. And if somebody goes and does something like that... no Starbucks. Nope. If I had it my way... it would be death. But if I can't have it my way... I'd prefer something a little more than massage therapy.

Don't make me cite a 1000 cases like this one that completely legitimizes my post and renders all arguments against absolutely pathetic. I'm sure you can think of 1000 yourself.

lukin2006

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

lukin2006 said:

Grieving Ontario mother livid after three men get manslaughter plea deal for killing and dismembering her son

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/grieving-ontario-mother-livid-after-three-men-get-manslaughter-plea-deal-for-killing-and-dismembering-her-son

Ridiculous to say the least...

There's people around here that will rejoice. "It wasn't their fault. They were really high you know."

But yes... a f**king joke. Canada's penal system is pathetic. It never ends.

I think the penal system can be to lenient...I wonder if the victims mother would have rather the crown pursue 1st degree charges even if there was strong chance of no conviction, I think I would want the crown to try. Plea deals can't be trusted all the ever since the "deal with devil"...

lukin2006

Edmonton’s ‘balaclava rapist’ gets day parole after more than 30 years in jail

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/07/27/edmontons-balaclava-rapist-gets-day-parole-after-more-than-30-years-in-jail.html

And another ...

oftenreading

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Often...

I guess I speak to the sympathetic voice that rears itself on here when speaking to shitheads like these assholes.

From the story we know... it seems like guilt is obvious. They killed and dismembered some guy. The problem is that courts... influenced by the mentality I don't care for so much... would likely absolve them of their guilt because 'they were high and therefore not responsible'.

That's what you need to do in Canada- Hyuk Hyuk eh go figure eh- if you want to kill someone: take drugs before you murder someone or claim that you were really sad that day... and the courts will weep, pardon your crime, and give you a ride to Starbucks for a frappuccino.

All supported by the voice or mentality I take exception to.

I'm short... f**k people who kill others and mutilate them afterwards. There's... quite simply... no excuse. None. And if somebody goes and does something like that... no Starbucks. Nope. If I had it my way... it would be death. But if I can't have it my way... I'd prefer something a little more than massage therapy.

Don't make me cite a 1000 cases like this one that completely legitimizes my post and renders all arguments against absolutely pathetic. I'm sure you can think of 1000 yourself.

"From the story we know.... it seems like guilt is obvious". But what do you know other than the limited amount that has been reported in the media? You really have no idea what the strength of the Crown's case is. You have no idea where the weakness in the evidence is. It's obviously there or they would have turned down the plea bargain. The rest of your post I'm not even going to address because it's just inflammatory and doesn't actually address anything that's been suggested by anyone that I've ever read.

lukin, that's a good point about whether it's better to pursue the murder charges even without strong chance of conviction or swallow that bitter pill and at least get a conviction that carries with it jail time and additional legal intervention. Would anyone rather that these guys get acquitted?

And Thirty, were you aware that the maximum penalty for manslaughter is life in jail? Or that this conviction could open the door for a Dangerous Offender hearing, which means an indeterminate sentence? Just because the article says they may be eligible for parole in two years doesn't mean they will get parole in two years.

lukin2006

Often ... you seem well versed in the justice system, so the families in Canada are not consulted? I guess that what jumped out at me is that the victims mother was shocked as well...I just assumed she was consulted about the case. I make no assimptions that I know how the system works, never been involved in the system, thankfully.

oftenreading

lukin2006 said:

Often ... you seem well versed in the justice system, so the families in Canada are not consulted? I guess that what jumped out at me is that the victims mother was shocked as well...I just assumed she was consulted about the case. I make no assimptions that I know how the system works, never been involved in the system, thankfully.

lukin, to the best of my knowledge there is no requirement for the victim/family members to be consulted. The plea bargaining is done between Crown and defense and then offered to the judge. I can well believe that the victim's mother would be shocked. I would have thought that Crown would have told her that there were weaknesses in the case and what the potential outcomes might be but maybe not.

polaris_x

oftenreading said:

lukin2006 said:

Often ... you seem well versed in the justice system, so the families in Canada are not consulted? I guess that what jumped out at me is that the victims mother was shocked as well...I just assumed she was consulted about the case. I make no assimptions that I know how the system works, never been involved in the system, thankfully.

lukin, to the best of my knowledge there is no requirement for the victim/family members to be consulted. The plea bargaining is done between Crown and defense and then offered to the judge. I can well believe that the victim's mother would be shocked. I would have thought that Crown would have told her that there were weaknesses in the case and what the potential outcomes might be but maybe not.

i believe there are victim impact statements that get considered in sentencing ...

i wish people had a little more objectivity when they discuss the justice system ... it's not like someone sits there and says 1 year for this 3 years for that ... it's very complex ... everyone thinks they no right from wrong but it's not always black and white ...

Thirty Bills Unpaid

lukin2006 said:

Often ... you seem well versed in the justice system, so the families in Canada are not consulted? I guess that what jumped out at me is that the victims mother was shocked as well...I just assumed she was consulted about the case. I make no assimptions that I know how the system works, never been involved in the system, thankfully.

Families are relegated to the back row of the court room- their personal interests are never considered. As messed up as that is... Often, many here feel victims have no place whatsoever in trial and sentencing components of murder trials where their family members were killed- this has been argued several times on this forum. Sooo... yes... the attitude I speak to exists (check many pages of the DP thread if you care to investigate).

The families play their parts after the weak sentences have been administered- they are forced to become active every two years once the murderers of their family become eligible for parole... gathering petitions and voicing the their concerns for pending releases. Like this case, they do get to express their shock and disappointment with the initial slap in the face; however, just get over it already- stiff sentences aren't going to bring back your child.

Good times I'm sure.

lukin2006

oftenreading said:

lukin2006 said:

Often ... you seem well versed in the justice system, so the families in Canada are not consulted? I guess that what jumped out at me is that the victims mother was shocked as well...I just assumed she was consulted about the case. I make no assimptions that I know how the system works, never been involved in the system, thankfully.

lukin, to the best of my knowledge there is no requirement for the victim/family members to be consulted. The plea bargaining is done between Crown and defense and then offered to the judge. I can well believe that the victim's mother would be shocked. I would have thought that Crown would have told her that there were weaknesses in the case and what the potential outcomes might be but maybe not.

Sounds good. Even a 1st degree conviction doesn't guarantee life ....

Maybe the crown will apply for dangerous offender status.

PJ_Soul

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Often...

I guess I speak to the sympathetic voice that rears itself on here when speaking to shitheads like these assholes.

From the story we know... it seems like guilt is obvious. They killed and dismembered some guy. The problem is that courts... influenced by the mentality I don't care for so much... would likely absolve them of their guilt because 'they were high and therefore not responsible'.

That's what you need to do in Canada- Hyuk Hyuk eh go figure eh- if you want to kill someone: take drugs before you murder someone or claim that you were really sad that day... and the courts will weep, pardon your crime, and give you a ride to Starbucks for a frappuccino.

All supported by the voice or mentality I take exception to.

I'm short... f**k people who kill others and mutilate them afterwards. There's... quite simply... no excuse. None. And if somebody goes and does something like that... no Starbucks. Nope. If I had it my way... it would be death. But if I can't have it my way... I'd prefer something a little more than massage therapy.

Don't make me cite a 1000 cases like this one that completely legitimizes my post and renders all arguments against absolutely pathetic. I'm sure you can think of 1000 yourself.

I don't think there has ever been a sympathetic voice for murderers here. Perhaps a sympathetic voice for mental illness, but never have I seen anyone even come close to suggesting what you keep saying about people's sentiments about this on the boards. I don't really understand where you're getting this idea. Being against the death penalty is a far cry from the feelings you're trying to tie to people. And I have honestly never met anyone in Canada who doesn't think sentences in Canada for violent offenders are often way too light.

oftenreading

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

lukin2006 said:

Often ... you seem well versed in the justice system, so the families in Canada are not consulted? I guess that what jumped out at me is that the victims mother was shocked as well...I just assumed she was consulted about the case. I make no assimptions that I know how the system works, never been involved in the system, thankfully.

Families are relegated to the back row of the court room- their personal interests are never considered. As messed up as that is... Often, many here feel victims have no place whatsoever in trial and sentencing components of murder trials where their family members were killed- this has been argued several times on this forum. Sooo... yes... the attitude I speak to exists (check many pages of the DP thread if you care to investigate).

The families play their parts after the weak sentences have been administered- they are forced to become active every two years once the murderers of their family become eligible for parole... gathering petitions and voicing the their concerns for pending releases. Like this case, they do get to express their shock and disappointment with the initial slap in the face; however, just get over it already- stiff sentences aren't going to bring back your child.

Good times I'm sure.

Thirty, you weren't even talking about victim involvement in your rant. You were off on a whole other tangent about Starbucks and leniency in sentencing.

lukin2006

It would be nice if victims were always consulted and involved more in the process...i guess if the crown does not have a reasonable chance to get a 1st degree conviction, then I would say at least a criminal conviction is better than an out right acquittal.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

oftenreading said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

lukin2006 said:

Often ... you seem well versed in the justice system, so the families in Canada are not consulted? I guess that what jumped out at me is that the victims mother was shocked as well...I just assumed she was consulted about the case. I make no assimptions that I know how the system works, never been involved in the system, thankfully.

Families are relegated to the back row of the court room- their personal interests are never considered. As messed up as that is... Often, many here feel victims have no place whatsoever in trial and sentencing components of murder trials where their family members were killed- this has been argued several times on this forum. Sooo... yes... the attitude I speak to exists (check many pages of the DP thread if you care to investigate).

The families play their parts after the weak sentences have been administered- they are forced to become active every two years once the murderers of their family become eligible for parole... gathering petitions and voicing the their concerns for pending releases. Like this case, they do get to express their shock and disappointment with the initial slap in the face; however, just get over it already- stiff sentences aren't going to bring back your child.

Good times I'm sure.

Thirty, you weren't even talking about victim involvement in your rant. You were off on a whole other tangent about Starbucks and leniency in sentencing.

It came up.

Am I free to comment on the subject?

PJ_Soul

I figure you are, but you are severely misrepresenting people in this forum, which I don't think is super cool.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

PJ_Soul said:

I figure you are, but you are severely misrepresenting people in this forum, which I don't think is super cool.

I don't think I am. I've had this conversation many times on here. I haven't haphazardly come about this perception.

I don't know. Maybe people have done a really shitty job detailing their positions or I've done a really shitty job understanding them.

PJ_Soul

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

I figure you are, but you are severely misrepresenting people in this forum, which I don't think is super cool.

I don't think I am. I've had this conversation many times on here. I haven't haphazardly come about this perception.

I don't know. Maybe people have done a really shitty job detailing their positions or I've done a really shitty job understanding them.

Well then I think you are misinterpreting people's positions on the matter.

oftenreading

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

oftenreading said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

lukin2006 said:

Often ... you seem well versed in the justice system, so the families in Canada are not consulted? I guess that what jumped out at me is that the victims mother was shocked as well...I just assumed she was consulted about the case. I make no assimptions that I know how the system works, never been involved in the system, thankfully.

Families are relegated to the back row of the court room- their personal interests are never considered. As messed up as that is... Often, many here feel victims have no place whatsoever in trial and sentencing components of murder trials where their family members were killed- this has been argued several times on this forum. Sooo... yes... the attitude I speak to exists (check many pages of the DP thread if you care to investigate).

The families play their parts after the weak sentences have been administered- they are forced to become active every two years once the murderers of their family become eligible for parole... gathering petitions and voicing the their concerns for pending releases. Like this case, they do get to express their shock and disappointment with the initial slap in the face; however, just get over it already- stiff sentences aren't going to bring back your child.

Good times I'm sure.

Thirty, you weren't even talking about victim involvement in your rant. You were off on a whole other tangent about Starbucks and leniency in sentencing.

It came up.

Am I free to comment on the subject?

Of course you're free to comment. Just don't claim I was speaking to one issue when I was speaking to a different one.

I always welcome your comments, Thirty. Even when you're wrong