Canadian Politics Redux
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I guess I'll just thank Biden by voting D again.DarthMaeglin said:
It’s difficult to find a definitive answer but I was fairly certain it was local authorities (either the police or the city government) that sought the injunction. So meltdown was right in that Justin had nothing to do with clearing that blockade. He missed filling in the blanks, lol.mrussel1 said:
Fine, a court ordered the bridge cleared. Check your lithium.Meltdown99 said:
he didn't go to court...do your research...otherwise, you continue to look ignorant...i think your senile president yells at the clouds...mrussel1 said:
Well guess what, JT went to court, got an order and the Bridge is open. So go yell at some clouds.Meltdown99 said:
I also stated earlier in this thread that court was an option...but guess what Biden doesn't get to decide He's just meddling old man...mrussel1 said:
Biden pressured JT to go to court to break the protest, not to negotiate or acquiesce.Nami said:
I have to respectfully disagree on your take regarding the convoy. I feel this was successful on a couple levels. One, being the publics increased involvement in politics once again- either for or against (I believe Oftenreading mentioned this before). Secondly, if anything it has shown that the people can have their voices heard regardless of the method or size and make an impact. Finally, Unity across all cultures. Yes yes i get you guys are against this.. ive seen it on the last hundred pages. HaHughFreakingDillon said:
yeah, because the pandemic has been static for two years.Meltdown99 said:Have at your vaccine. I was told if we get vaccinated all mandates are removed. They lied. It took these protest to move to bring these mandates to an end..I will not be taking anymore vaccine…lockdowns never worked. It put a strain on everyone who was effected in some way..Stop the bullshit.
these protests did nothing. these restrictions being lifted were in the works for weeks. but sure, keep on believing in your "victory". hahaha
lockdowns worked to ease the burden on the health care system; fact. but you don't care about doctors and nurses who have been demonized while healing the sick, spat on for doing their jobs, exhausted from treating the unvaccinated; just the "oppressed" truckers.
way to be on the right side.
If talks were taking place in January- why not interact with convoy to inform at that time? I guess you would still have protests (people camping out and such) but perhaps a smaller contingent not tying up the streets of Ottawa or across Canada. I think it was the pressure applied with the blocking of the ambassador bridge if anything that finally got it to the point we are at today. Pressure from Biden and the auto industry greased the wheels. Also, let me put on my tin foil hat for a sec haha, if talks/plans were in place, was this a ploy for JT to invoke the EMA? tighter Gov't controls?
To refer to this group as the free-dumb convoy as many of you have stated here, is just wrong, they are anything but imo.
bash away...0 -
I'd already read this. you seem to think I support the cross border mandate. I don't. I think at this stage, it's meaningless. Protest away. I really have no idea why someone who spends most of their working life in solitary needs to be held to the same standard as those of us who work in groups. Or why it matters that there is an imaginary line that needs to drawn in the sand to keep people in America out. Or why these mandates apply to people in cars but not planes. it's absurd. But don't disrupt supply chains. Don't terrorize citizens with noise and obstruction. they've cost the canadian auto industry literally millions of dollars already. and then people like meltdown will bitch and moan when they ask for help. and people like him will bitch if trudeau gives it to them. and he'll bitch if trudeau doesn't give it to them. because this is less about mandates and mroe about hatred of our prime minister/liberals. maybe the truckers will start a gofundme for them? doubtful.DarthMaeglin said:
Why do you feel the need to keep reminding me of my own words regarding mitigation of outcomes?HughFreakingDillon said:
a liar? that he has an opinion that mirrors yours? that he was pro mandate but now because of how he views the vaccine's effectiveness as "very low" because it doesn't protect much against infection (but again, it does against severe outcomes)? again, that view makes no sense to me.DarthMaeglin said:
Just to be clear, you’re saying mandates were an evolution of policy, not a political tactic in an election? Is MP Lightbound a liar?HughFreakingDillon said:
policies tend to change as situations change. he was hoping enough people would be smart enough to get the jab.DarthMaeglin said:
You’ve apparently chosen (or just as likely see it differently) to not acknowledge Trudeau’s shift from “Canada doesn’t mandate vaccines” in June to “Mandates or the highway” when he called the election in August (credibly established by members of his own caucus). Remember the uproar over unvaccinated Conservatives when Parliament returned? Since the election he’s done everything he can to paint anyone (not minorities, obviously) who has questions or disagreements as anti-vaccine and a card-carrying Conservative. He has been utterly inflexible on his policies, despite only leading a minority government (clear mandate my ass).HughFreakingDillon said:
yes, we've all known this would happen for a while. we've all known that plans were in place since mid-january that most or all restrictions would end this coming spring. which makes this convoy all the more absurd. and the claim of victory laughable.DarthMaeglin said:
It would be a combination of hospitalization statistics, community spread, severity of the dominant strain, all balanced against our wonderful rights and freedoms. (I’m probably missing some factors to be considered, but that’s what jumps to top of mind.)HughFreakingDillon said:
what would that standard be, by the way? total collapse of our health care system? waiting until we put doctors in a "who lives and who dies today?" sort of situation?DarthMaeglin said:
Dude, I have numerous times openly acknowledged that the vaccines mitigate outcomes so I don’t know where you’re reading that.HughFreakingDillon said:
the end point was always about mitigating serious outcomes. curbing the spread was a bonus in the beginning, but hand washing, masking, and distancing was always the best to prevent spread.DarthMaeglin said:
Certainly I’ve never denied that outcomes are effected, I’ve simply been pointing out that the vaccines (presented as our way “out of” covid) are doing less and less (at this point zero in a practical sense) to prevent spread. If we’re going to continue to essentially force people to get vaccinated against covid to prevent outcomes not spread, there’s a whole lot of other diseases we should be mandating vaccines for.HughFreakingDillon said:
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/by-the-numbers-covid-19-vaccines-and-omicron#2-dose-Pfizer-vaccine-vs.-OmicronDarthMaeglin said:
I believe the statistic you keep citing was based on delta, not omicron. While delta does continue to circulate I don’t believe it’s currently the dominant strain, so the number isn’t necessarily accurate to right now.HughFreakingDillon said:yes, for the millionth fucking time: you can catch covid even if vaxxed. but it's 20 goddamn times less likely you'll die from it. ffs this is getting unreal.
omicron data still shows, while less effective against symptomatic infection, strong effectiveness against hospitalization and death.
there is no denying this.
in a practical sense, it is not "doing zero". it's seriously making me believe you just don't want to admit that the vaccines are highly effective at their job (preventing hospitalization and death) so there is no excuse for mandates.
I suppose I just have a very high standard for mandating behaviours, and yes, the initial science looked good (90-95% prevention of infection), but as nature took hold those numbers have dropped and dropped. If you’re going to force injections then I look for control of spread as a justification (amongst several considerations). I was happy to see science is finally looking at the protections of natural infection.
I’ll also say again that the federal government has tools to get some of the hesitant vaccinated. Make non-mrna vaccines widely available. I’m now wondering about the investments of journalists in Pfizer and moderna, since no one is asking why this isn’t being done.
As I typed the above, cbc had a doctor on who was making the point that given the current situation it seems reasonable to ease restrictions and end the segregation of the unvaccinated (transmission by the vaccinated being specifically cited). Which begs the question of the Prime Minister, why continue the divisive and antagonistic policies and rhetoric? What will it accomplish now?
trudeau is trying to get these idiots to end their occupation. it's interesting you call him antagonizing. he is the one RESPONDING to the antagonizing.
As I see it (feel free to disagree, I know many will), but Trudeau began laying the groundwork for the current protests when he chose to conquer and divide in the last election. These are his chickens coming home to roost.
It was very telling as I watched the emergency debate that all the parties were talking about the need to bring the people together. Except the Liberal party which wanted to unite Canadians by everyone acquiescing to their policies with zero negotiation.
I couldn't give two shits if omicron gives 30 million people the sniffles. if it stops 70% of those who would normally suffer severe outcomes, then yes, it's STILL HIGHLY EFFECTIVE.
it's weird to me to make such a substantial change in stance simply because you might get a runny nose now instead of not. why should that be the main driving factor? shouldn't DEATH be the main factor?
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6343730
I suggest you read this article, especially the statements regarding the trucker mandate where Lightbound confirms there has been no science to support the mandate (well, maybe there is, we’re all used to Trudeau not being “open and transparent” with any information by now).
Remember just before the pointless election (other than killing the order to produce the Winnipeg lab papers), all the health experts (who Trudeau claims he listens to) were practically begging politicians to NOT politicize vaccines? And right out of the gates Trudeau did.
It's their methods that bother me. and again, that restrictions are obviously on their way out anyway.
Post edited by HughFreakingDillon onHugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall0 -
dignin said:
Exactly. Anyone paying attention to omicron waves in other places around the world knew it would hit hard and fast then retreat.HughFreakingDillon said:
I meant they had no affect on easing of restrictions.Nami said:
I have to respectfully disagree on your take regarding the convoy. I feel this was successful on a couple levels. One, being the publics increased involvement in politics once again- either for or against (I believe Oftenreading mentioned this before). Secondly, if anything it has shown that the people can have their voices heard regardless of the method or size and make an impact. Finally, Unity across all cultures. Yes yes i get you guys are against this.. ive seen it on the last hundred pages. HaHughFreakingDillon said:
yeah, because the pandemic has been static for two years.Meltdown99 said:Have at your vaccine. I was told if we get vaccinated all mandates are removed. They lied. It took these protest to move to bring these mandates to an end..I will not be taking anymore vaccine…lockdowns never worked. It put a strain on everyone who was effected in some way..Stop the bullshit.
these protests did nothing. these restrictions being lifted were in the works for weeks. but sure, keep on believing in your "victory". hahaha
lockdowns worked to ease the burden on the health care system; fact. but you don't care about doctors and nurses who have been demonized while healing the sick, spat on for doing their jobs, exhausted from treating the unvaccinated; just the "oppressed" truckers.
way to be on the right side.
If talks were taking place in January- why not interact with convoy to inform at that time? I guess you would still have protests (people camping out and such) but perhaps a smaller contingent not tying up the streets of Ottawa or across Canada. I think it was the pressure applied with the blocking of the ambassador bridge if anything that finally got it to the point we are at today. Pressure from Biden and the auto industry greased the wheels. Also, let me put on my tin foil hat for a sec haha, if talks/plans were in place, was this a ploy for JT to invoke the EMA? tighter Gov't controls?
To refer to this group as the free-dumb convoy as many of you have stated here, is just wrong, they are anything but imo.
bash away...
why any need to interact with them? this information was readily available anywhere you read. first alberta, then saskatchewan, then manitoba, we all knew it was going to be a domino effect, as long as it looked like the wave was heading downward, which all signs pointed to since December when we saw the modeling from South Africa (it was assumed and hoped we all would follow the same short trajectory-so far we have). so these people decided they were going to affect change that was already happening and claim victory. it's hilarious.
No politician this late in the pandemic wanted to keep restrictions on longer than needed. Especially given how well vaccines have worked and new effective treatments. The restrictions were put in place to mainly protect our healthcare system from the unvaccinated, we knew they would over burden our hospitals.
Sane Canadians knew that the end of this wave was coming soon, so we didn't feel the need to throw a tantrum and hurt more people unnecessarily. Smooth brains just couldn't help themselves though. Had to stick it to the Libs and hurt the Canadian economy. Could have just waited a couple of weeks.
Yup. What an absurd waste of time and money these morons have been and are still being. It really makes me mad.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata0 -
this is why I find it so fucking funny that idiots call me a trudeau lover. I disagree with a ton of the shit he's done. how he says things sometimes. If the PC's had a leader I could get behind or if the NDP had a shot in hell at winning, I wouldn't vote for him.
But I currently am focusing on what the truckers and their far right racist financiers are doing. like I said before, I can dislike a politician but agree with something they do, and vice versa. that's how intelligent adults operate (obviously not a shot at you, Darth).Post edited by HughFreakingDillon onHugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall0 -
You’ve been fairly dismissive of Trudeau’s role in creating the angry environment that spawned this protest it seems, maybe I’ve misread you, but that’s how it’s come across.HughFreakingDillon said:
I'd already read this. you seem to think I support the cross border mandate. I don't. I think at this stage, it's meaningless. Protest away. I really have no idea why someone who spends most of their working life in solitary needs to be held to the same standard as those of us who work in groups. Or why it matters that there is an imaginary line that needs to drawn in the sand to keep people in America out. Or why these mandates apply to people in cars but not planes. it's absurd. But don't disrupt supply chains. Don't terrorize citizens with noise and obstruction. they've cost the canadian auto industry literally millions of dollars already. and then people like meltdown will bitch and moan when they ask for help. and people like him will bitch if trudeau gives it to them. and he'll bitch if trudeau doesn't give it to them. because this is less about mandates and mroe about hatred of our prime minister/liberals. maybe the truckers will start a gofundme for them? doubtful.DarthMaeglin said:
Why do you feel the need to keep reminding me of my own words regarding mitigation of outcomes?HughFreakingDillon said:
a liar? that he has an opinion that mirrors yours? that he was pro mandate but now because of how he views the vaccine's effectiveness as "very low" because it doesn't protect much against infection (but again, it does against severe outcomes)? again, that view makes no sense to me.DarthMaeglin said:
Just to be clear, you’re saying mandates were an evolution of policy, not a political tactic in an election? Is MP Lightbound a liar?HughFreakingDillon said:
policies tend to change as situations change. he was hoping enough people would be smart enough to get the jab.DarthMaeglin said:
You’ve apparently chosen (or just as likely see it differently) to not acknowledge Trudeau’s shift from “Canada doesn’t mandate vaccines” in June to “Mandates or the highway” when he called the election in August (credibly established by members of his own caucus). Remember the uproar over unvaccinated Conservatives when Parliament returned? Since the election he’s done everything he can to paint anyone (not minorities, obviously) who has questions or disagreements as anti-vaccine and a card-carrying Conservative. He has been utterly inflexible on his policies, despite only leading a minority government (clear mandate my ass).HughFreakingDillon said:
yes, we've all known this would happen for a while. we've all known that plans were in place since mid-january that most or all restrictions would end this coming spring. which makes this convoy all the more absurd. and the claim of victory laughable.DarthMaeglin said:
It would be a combination of hospitalization statistics, community spread, severity of the dominant strain, all balanced against our wonderful rights and freedoms. (I’m probably missing some factors to be considered, but that’s what jumps to top of mind.)HughFreakingDillon said:
what would that standard be, by the way? total collapse of our health care system? waiting until we put doctors in a "who lives and who dies today?" sort of situation?DarthMaeglin said:
Dude, I have numerous times openly acknowledged that the vaccines mitigate outcomes so I don’t know where you’re reading that.HughFreakingDillon said:
the end point was always about mitigating serious outcomes. curbing the spread was a bonus in the beginning, but hand washing, masking, and distancing was always the best to prevent spread.DarthMaeglin said:
Certainly I’ve never denied that outcomes are effected, I’ve simply been pointing out that the vaccines (presented as our way “out of” covid) are doing less and less (at this point zero in a practical sense) to prevent spread. If we’re going to continue to essentially force people to get vaccinated against covid to prevent outcomes not spread, there’s a whole lot of other diseases we should be mandating vaccines for.HughFreakingDillon said:
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/by-the-numbers-covid-19-vaccines-and-omicron#2-dose-Pfizer-vaccine-vs.-OmicronDarthMaeglin said:
I believe the statistic you keep citing was based on delta, not omicron. While delta does continue to circulate I don’t believe it’s currently the dominant strain, so the number isn’t necessarily accurate to right now.HughFreakingDillon said:yes, for the millionth fucking time: you can catch covid even if vaxxed. but it's 20 goddamn times less likely you'll die from it. ffs this is getting unreal.
omicron data still shows, while less effective against symptomatic infection, strong effectiveness against hospitalization and death.
there is no denying this.
in a practical sense, it is not "doing zero". it's seriously making me believe you just don't want to admit that the vaccines are highly effective at their job (preventing hospitalization and death) so there is no excuse for mandates.
I suppose I just have a very high standard for mandating behaviours, and yes, the initial science looked good (90-95% prevention of infection), but as nature took hold those numbers have dropped and dropped. If you’re going to force injections then I look for control of spread as a justification (amongst several considerations). I was happy to see science is finally looking at the protections of natural infection.
I’ll also say again that the federal government has tools to get some of the hesitant vaccinated. Make non-mrna vaccines widely available. I’m now wondering about the investments of journalists in Pfizer and moderna, since no one is asking why this isn’t being done.
As I typed the above, cbc had a doctor on who was making the point that given the current situation it seems reasonable to ease restrictions and end the segregation of the unvaccinated (transmission by the vaccinated being specifically cited). Which begs the question of the Prime Minister, why continue the divisive and antagonistic policies and rhetoric? What will it accomplish now?
trudeau is trying to get these idiots to end their occupation. it's interesting you call him antagonizing. he is the one RESPONDING to the antagonizing.
As I see it (feel free to disagree, I know many will), but Trudeau began laying the groundwork for the current protests when he chose to conquer and divide in the last election. These are his chickens coming home to roost.
It was very telling as I watched the emergency debate that all the parties were talking about the need to bring the people together. Except the Liberal party which wanted to unite Canadians by everyone acquiescing to their policies with zero negotiation.
I couldn't give two shits if omicron gives 30 million people the sniffles. if it stops 70% of those who would normally suffer severe outcomes, then yes, it's STILL HIGHLY EFFECTIVE.
it's weird to me to make such a substantial change in stance simply because you might get a runny nose now instead of not. why should that be the main driving factor? shouldn't DEATH be the main factor?
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6343730
I suggest you read this article, especially the statements regarding the trucker mandate where Lightbound confirms there has been no science to support the mandate (well, maybe there is, we’re all used to Trudeau not being “open and transparent” with any information by now).
Remember just before the pointless election (other than killing the order to produce the Winnipeg lab papers), all the health experts (who Trudeau claims he listens to) were practically begging politicians to NOT politicize vaccines? And right out of the gates Trudeau did.
It's their methods that bother me. and again, that restrictions are obviously on their way out anyway.
Lightbound was asking for proof to back up the government policies and like many others was also asking for the Prime Minister to take the temperature down on the situation. Haven’t seen evidence of either of those things, and enacting the EMA is the nuclear option, far out of proportion to the “problem” in my opinion.
This has become problematic because local law enforcement didn’t adequately prepare for what they knew was coming and once things were out of hand failed to manage the situation. How about we let the interim police chief try doing his job? Too late, EMA’s in effect.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 20220 -
So there's a great White Stripes song (I guess the last, since it's the last song on Icky) called Effect and Cause. This reminds me of that. Everyone blaming JT, the police, RCMP, whoever for how they handled the situation. Well that's the effect. The cause was the Truckers and their shutting down of international commerce, as if they had that right. They don't. You can't take the effect, and make it the cause. HFD has it dead on in his post.DarthMaeglin said:
You’ve been fairly dismissive of Trudeau’s role in creating the angry environment that spawned this protest it seems, maybe I’ve misread you, but that’s how it’s come across.HughFreakingDillon said:
I'd already read this. you seem to think I support the cross border mandate. I don't. I think at this stage, it's meaningless. Protest away. I really have no idea why someone who spends most of their working life in solitary needs to be held to the same standard as those of us who work in groups. Or why it matters that there is an imaginary line that needs to drawn in the sand to keep people in America out. Or why these mandates apply to people in cars but not planes. it's absurd. But don't disrupt supply chains. Don't terrorize citizens with noise and obstruction. they've cost the canadian auto industry literally millions of dollars already. and then people like meltdown will bitch and moan when they ask for help. and people like him will bitch if trudeau gives it to them. and he'll bitch if trudeau doesn't give it to them. because this is less about mandates and mroe about hatred of our prime minister/liberals. maybe the truckers will start a gofundme for them? doubtful.DarthMaeglin said:
Why do you feel the need to keep reminding me of my own words regarding mitigation of outcomes?HughFreakingDillon said:
a liar? that he has an opinion that mirrors yours? that he was pro mandate but now because of how he views the vaccine's effectiveness as "very low" because it doesn't protect much against infection (but again, it does against severe outcomes)? again, that view makes no sense to me.DarthMaeglin said:
Just to be clear, you’re saying mandates were an evolution of policy, not a political tactic in an election? Is MP Lightbound a liar?HughFreakingDillon said:
policies tend to change as situations change. he was hoping enough people would be smart enough to get the jab.DarthMaeglin said:
You’ve apparently chosen (or just as likely see it differently) to not acknowledge Trudeau’s shift from “Canada doesn’t mandate vaccines” in June to “Mandates or the highway” when he called the election in August (credibly established by members of his own caucus). Remember the uproar over unvaccinated Conservatives when Parliament returned? Since the election he’s done everything he can to paint anyone (not minorities, obviously) who has questions or disagreements as anti-vaccine and a card-carrying Conservative. He has been utterly inflexible on his policies, despite only leading a minority government (clear mandate my ass).HughFreakingDillon said:
yes, we've all known this would happen for a while. we've all known that plans were in place since mid-january that most or all restrictions would end this coming spring. which makes this convoy all the more absurd. and the claim of victory laughable.DarthMaeglin said:
It would be a combination of hospitalization statistics, community spread, severity of the dominant strain, all balanced against our wonderful rights and freedoms. (I’m probably missing some factors to be considered, but that’s what jumps to top of mind.)HughFreakingDillon said:
what would that standard be, by the way? total collapse of our health care system? waiting until we put doctors in a "who lives and who dies today?" sort of situation?DarthMaeglin said:
Dude, I have numerous times openly acknowledged that the vaccines mitigate outcomes so I don’t know where you’re reading that.HughFreakingDillon said:
the end point was always about mitigating serious outcomes. curbing the spread was a bonus in the beginning, but hand washing, masking, and distancing was always the best to prevent spread.DarthMaeglin said:
Certainly I’ve never denied that outcomes are effected, I’ve simply been pointing out that the vaccines (presented as our way “out of” covid) are doing less and less (at this point zero in a practical sense) to prevent spread. If we’re going to continue to essentially force people to get vaccinated against covid to prevent outcomes not spread, there’s a whole lot of other diseases we should be mandating vaccines for.HughFreakingDillon said:
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/by-the-numbers-covid-19-vaccines-and-omicron#2-dose-Pfizer-vaccine-vs.-OmicronDarthMaeglin said:
I believe the statistic you keep citing was based on delta, not omicron. While delta does continue to circulate I don’t believe it’s currently the dominant strain, so the number isn’t necessarily accurate to right now.HughFreakingDillon said:yes, for the millionth fucking time: you can catch covid even if vaxxed. but it's 20 goddamn times less likely you'll die from it. ffs this is getting unreal.
omicron data still shows, while less effective against symptomatic infection, strong effectiveness against hospitalization and death.
there is no denying this.
in a practical sense, it is not "doing zero". it's seriously making me believe you just don't want to admit that the vaccines are highly effective at their job (preventing hospitalization and death) so there is no excuse for mandates.
I suppose I just have a very high standard for mandating behaviours, and yes, the initial science looked good (90-95% prevention of infection), but as nature took hold those numbers have dropped and dropped. If you’re going to force injections then I look for control of spread as a justification (amongst several considerations). I was happy to see science is finally looking at the protections of natural infection.
I’ll also say again that the federal government has tools to get some of the hesitant vaccinated. Make non-mrna vaccines widely available. I’m now wondering about the investments of journalists in Pfizer and moderna, since no one is asking why this isn’t being done.
As I typed the above, cbc had a doctor on who was making the point that given the current situation it seems reasonable to ease restrictions and end the segregation of the unvaccinated (transmission by the vaccinated being specifically cited). Which begs the question of the Prime Minister, why continue the divisive and antagonistic policies and rhetoric? What will it accomplish now?
trudeau is trying to get these idiots to end their occupation. it's interesting you call him antagonizing. he is the one RESPONDING to the antagonizing.
As I see it (feel free to disagree, I know many will), but Trudeau began laying the groundwork for the current protests when he chose to conquer and divide in the last election. These are his chickens coming home to roost.
It was very telling as I watched the emergency debate that all the parties were talking about the need to bring the people together. Except the Liberal party which wanted to unite Canadians by everyone acquiescing to their policies with zero negotiation.
I couldn't give two shits if omicron gives 30 million people the sniffles. if it stops 70% of those who would normally suffer severe outcomes, then yes, it's STILL HIGHLY EFFECTIVE.
it's weird to me to make such a substantial change in stance simply because you might get a runny nose now instead of not. why should that be the main driving factor? shouldn't DEATH be the main factor?
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6343730
I suggest you read this article, especially the statements regarding the trucker mandate where Lightbound confirms there has been no science to support the mandate (well, maybe there is, we’re all used to Trudeau not being “open and transparent” with any information by now).
Remember just before the pointless election (other than killing the order to produce the Winnipeg lab papers), all the health experts (who Trudeau claims he listens to) were practically begging politicians to NOT politicize vaccines? And right out of the gates Trudeau did.
It's their methods that bother me. and again, that restrictions are obviously on their way out anyway.
Lightbound was asking for proof to back up the government policies and like many others was also asking for the Prime Minister to take the temperature down on the situation. Haven’t seen evidence of either of those things, and enacting the EMA is the nuclear option, far out of proportion to the “problem” in my opinion.
This has become problematic because local law enforcement didn’t adequately prepare for what they knew was coming and once things were out of hand failed to manage the situation. How about we let the interim police chief try doing his job? Too late, EMA’s in effect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzWckYfZhbA
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I don't think he said anything that "spawned" the protest. Unless there's something i missed.Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall0
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I was literally just thinking that one doesn’t get to poke the bear then blame the bear for being upset. Obviously we don’t agree about who the bear is, lol.mrussel1 said:
So there's a great White Stripes song (I guess the last, since it's the last song on Icky) called Effect and Cause. This reminds me of that. Everyone blaming JT, the police, RCMP, whoever for how they handled the situation. Well that's the effect. The cause was the Truckers and their shutting down of international commerce, as if they had that right. They don't. You can't take the effect, and make it the cause. HFD has it dead on in his post.DarthMaeglin said:
You’ve been fairly dismissive of Trudeau’s role in creating the angry environment that spawned this protest it seems, maybe I’ve misread you, but that’s how it’s come across.HughFreakingDillon said:
I'd already read this. you seem to think I support the cross border mandate. I don't. I think at this stage, it's meaningless. Protest away. I really have no idea why someone who spends most of their working life in solitary needs to be held to the same standard as those of us who work in groups. Or why it matters that there is an imaginary line that needs to drawn in the sand to keep people in America out. Or why these mandates apply to people in cars but not planes. it's absurd. But don't disrupt supply chains. Don't terrorize citizens with noise and obstruction. they've cost the canadian auto industry literally millions of dollars already. and then people like meltdown will bitch and moan when they ask for help. and people like him will bitch if trudeau gives it to them. and he'll bitch if trudeau doesn't give it to them. because this is less about mandates and mroe about hatred of our prime minister/liberals. maybe the truckers will start a gofundme for them? doubtful.DarthMaeglin said:
Why do you feel the need to keep reminding me of my own words regarding mitigation of outcomes?HughFreakingDillon said:
a liar? that he has an opinion that mirrors yours? that he was pro mandate but now because of how he views the vaccine's effectiveness as "very low" because it doesn't protect much against infection (but again, it does against severe outcomes)? again, that view makes no sense to me.DarthMaeglin said:
Just to be clear, you’re saying mandates were an evolution of policy, not a political tactic in an election? Is MP Lightbound a liar?HughFreakingDillon said:
policies tend to change as situations change. he was hoping enough people would be smart enough to get the jab.DarthMaeglin said:
You’ve apparently chosen (or just as likely see it differently) to not acknowledge Trudeau’s shift from “Canada doesn’t mandate vaccines” in June to “Mandates or the highway” when he called the election in August (credibly established by members of his own caucus). Remember the uproar over unvaccinated Conservatives when Parliament returned? Since the election he’s done everything he can to paint anyone (not minorities, obviously) who has questions or disagreements as anti-vaccine and a card-carrying Conservative. He has been utterly inflexible on his policies, despite only leading a minority government (clear mandate my ass).HughFreakingDillon said:
yes, we've all known this would happen for a while. we've all known that plans were in place since mid-january that most or all restrictions would end this coming spring. which makes this convoy all the more absurd. and the claim of victory laughable.DarthMaeglin said:
It would be a combination of hospitalization statistics, community spread, severity of the dominant strain, all balanced against our wonderful rights and freedoms. (I’m probably missing some factors to be considered, but that’s what jumps to top of mind.)HughFreakingDillon said:
what would that standard be, by the way? total collapse of our health care system? waiting until we put doctors in a "who lives and who dies today?" sort of situation?DarthMaeglin said:
Dude, I have numerous times openly acknowledged that the vaccines mitigate outcomes so I don’t know where you’re reading that.HughFreakingDillon said:
the end point was always about mitigating serious outcomes. curbing the spread was a bonus in the beginning, but hand washing, masking, and distancing was always the best to prevent spread.DarthMaeglin said:
Certainly I’ve never denied that outcomes are effected, I’ve simply been pointing out that the vaccines (presented as our way “out of” covid) are doing less and less (at this point zero in a practical sense) to prevent spread. If we’re going to continue to essentially force people to get vaccinated against covid to prevent outcomes not spread, there’s a whole lot of other diseases we should be mandating vaccines for.HughFreakingDillon said:
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/by-the-numbers-covid-19-vaccines-and-omicron#2-dose-Pfizer-vaccine-vs.-OmicronDarthMaeglin said:
I believe the statistic you keep citing was based on delta, not omicron. While delta does continue to circulate I don’t believe it’s currently the dominant strain, so the number isn’t necessarily accurate to right now.HughFreakingDillon said:yes, for the millionth fucking time: you can catch covid even if vaxxed. but it's 20 goddamn times less likely you'll die from it. ffs this is getting unreal.
omicron data still shows, while less effective against symptomatic infection, strong effectiveness against hospitalization and death.
there is no denying this.
in a practical sense, it is not "doing zero". it's seriously making me believe you just don't want to admit that the vaccines are highly effective at their job (preventing hospitalization and death) so there is no excuse for mandates.
I suppose I just have a very high standard for mandating behaviours, and yes, the initial science looked good (90-95% prevention of infection), but as nature took hold those numbers have dropped and dropped. If you’re going to force injections then I look for control of spread as a justification (amongst several considerations). I was happy to see science is finally looking at the protections of natural infection.
I’ll also say again that the federal government has tools to get some of the hesitant vaccinated. Make non-mrna vaccines widely available. I’m now wondering about the investments of journalists in Pfizer and moderna, since no one is asking why this isn’t being done.
As I typed the above, cbc had a doctor on who was making the point that given the current situation it seems reasonable to ease restrictions and end the segregation of the unvaccinated (transmission by the vaccinated being specifically cited). Which begs the question of the Prime Minister, why continue the divisive and antagonistic policies and rhetoric? What will it accomplish now?
trudeau is trying to get these idiots to end their occupation. it's interesting you call him antagonizing. he is the one RESPONDING to the antagonizing.
As I see it (feel free to disagree, I know many will), but Trudeau began laying the groundwork for the current protests when he chose to conquer and divide in the last election. These are his chickens coming home to roost.
It was very telling as I watched the emergency debate that all the parties were talking about the need to bring the people together. Except the Liberal party which wanted to unite Canadians by everyone acquiescing to their policies with zero negotiation.
I couldn't give two shits if omicron gives 30 million people the sniffles. if it stops 70% of those who would normally suffer severe outcomes, then yes, it's STILL HIGHLY EFFECTIVE.
it's weird to me to make such a substantial change in stance simply because you might get a runny nose now instead of not. why should that be the main driving factor? shouldn't DEATH be the main factor?
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6343730
I suggest you read this article, especially the statements regarding the trucker mandate where Lightbound confirms there has been no science to support the mandate (well, maybe there is, we’re all used to Trudeau not being “open and transparent” with any information by now).
Remember just before the pointless election (other than killing the order to produce the Winnipeg lab papers), all the health experts (who Trudeau claims he listens to) were practically begging politicians to NOT politicize vaccines? And right out of the gates Trudeau did.
It's their methods that bother me. and again, that restrictions are obviously on their way out anyway.
Lightbound was asking for proof to back up the government policies and like many others was also asking for the Prime Minister to take the temperature down on the situation. Haven’t seen evidence of either of those things, and enacting the EMA is the nuclear option, far out of proportion to the “problem” in my opinion.
This has become problematic because local law enforcement didn’t adequately prepare for what they knew was coming and once things were out of hand failed to manage the situation. How about we let the interim police chief try doing his job? Too late, EMA’s in effect.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzWckYfZhbA"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 20220 -
Is this the illustration of people watching the same thing but seeing different things, lol?HughFreakingDillon said:I don't think he said anything that "spawned" the protest. Unless there's something i missed.
For me it began during the campaign where Trudeau just yelled at people to get vaccinated (as if he could tell at a glance who was and wasn’t, though he usually said “please,” lol)."The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 20220 -
You're a good sport.DarthMaeglin said:
I was literally just thinking that one doesn’t get to poke the bear then blame the bear for being upset. Obviously we don’t agree about who the bear is, lol.mrussel1 said:
So there's a great White Stripes song (I guess the last, since it's the last song on Icky) called Effect and Cause. This reminds me of that. Everyone blaming JT, the police, RCMP, whoever for how they handled the situation. Well that's the effect. The cause was the Truckers and their shutting down of international commerce, as if they had that right. They don't. You can't take the effect, and make it the cause. HFD has it dead on in his post.DarthMaeglin said:
You’ve been fairly dismissive of Trudeau’s role in creating the angry environment that spawned this protest it seems, maybe I’ve misread you, but that’s how it’s come across.HughFreakingDillon said:
I'd already read this. you seem to think I support the cross border mandate. I don't. I think at this stage, it's meaningless. Protest away. I really have no idea why someone who spends most of their working life in solitary needs to be held to the same standard as those of us who work in groups. Or why it matters that there is an imaginary line that needs to drawn in the sand to keep people in America out. Or why these mandates apply to people in cars but not planes. it's absurd. But don't disrupt supply chains. Don't terrorize citizens with noise and obstruction. they've cost the canadian auto industry literally millions of dollars already. and then people like meltdown will bitch and moan when they ask for help. and people like him will bitch if trudeau gives it to them. and he'll bitch if trudeau doesn't give it to them. because this is less about mandates and mroe about hatred of our prime minister/liberals. maybe the truckers will start a gofundme for them? doubtful.DarthMaeglin said:
Why do you feel the need to keep reminding me of my own words regarding mitigation of outcomes?HughFreakingDillon said:
a liar? that he has an opinion that mirrors yours? that he was pro mandate but now because of how he views the vaccine's effectiveness as "very low" because it doesn't protect much against infection (but again, it does against severe outcomes)? again, that view makes no sense to me.DarthMaeglin said:
Just to be clear, you’re saying mandates were an evolution of policy, not a political tactic in an election? Is MP Lightbound a liar?HughFreakingDillon said:
policies tend to change as situations change. he was hoping enough people would be smart enough to get the jab.DarthMaeglin said:
You’ve apparently chosen (or just as likely see it differently) to not acknowledge Trudeau’s shift from “Canada doesn’t mandate vaccines” in June to “Mandates or the highway” when he called the election in August (credibly established by members of his own caucus). Remember the uproar over unvaccinated Conservatives when Parliament returned? Since the election he’s done everything he can to paint anyone (not minorities, obviously) who has questions or disagreements as anti-vaccine and a card-carrying Conservative. He has been utterly inflexible on his policies, despite only leading a minority government (clear mandate my ass).HughFreakingDillon said:
yes, we've all known this would happen for a while. we've all known that plans were in place since mid-january that most or all restrictions would end this coming spring. which makes this convoy all the more absurd. and the claim of victory laughable.DarthMaeglin said:
It would be a combination of hospitalization statistics, community spread, severity of the dominant strain, all balanced against our wonderful rights and freedoms. (I’m probably missing some factors to be considered, but that’s what jumps to top of mind.)HughFreakingDillon said:
what would that standard be, by the way? total collapse of our health care system? waiting until we put doctors in a "who lives and who dies today?" sort of situation?DarthMaeglin said:
Dude, I have numerous times openly acknowledged that the vaccines mitigate outcomes so I don’t know where you’re reading that.HughFreakingDillon said:
the end point was always about mitigating serious outcomes. curbing the spread was a bonus in the beginning, but hand washing, masking, and distancing was always the best to prevent spread.DarthMaeglin said:
Certainly I’ve never denied that outcomes are effected, I’ve simply been pointing out that the vaccines (presented as our way “out of” covid) are doing less and less (at this point zero in a practical sense) to prevent spread. If we’re going to continue to essentially force people to get vaccinated against covid to prevent outcomes not spread, there’s a whole lot of other diseases we should be mandating vaccines for.HughFreakingDillon said:
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/by-the-numbers-covid-19-vaccines-and-omicron#2-dose-Pfizer-vaccine-vs.-OmicronDarthMaeglin said:
I believe the statistic you keep citing was based on delta, not omicron. While delta does continue to circulate I don’t believe it’s currently the dominant strain, so the number isn’t necessarily accurate to right now.HughFreakingDillon said:yes, for the millionth fucking time: you can catch covid even if vaxxed. but it's 20 goddamn times less likely you'll die from it. ffs this is getting unreal.
omicron data still shows, while less effective against symptomatic infection, strong effectiveness against hospitalization and death.
there is no denying this.
in a practical sense, it is not "doing zero". it's seriously making me believe you just don't want to admit that the vaccines are highly effective at their job (preventing hospitalization and death) so there is no excuse for mandates.
I suppose I just have a very high standard for mandating behaviours, and yes, the initial science looked good (90-95% prevention of infection), but as nature took hold those numbers have dropped and dropped. If you’re going to force injections then I look for control of spread as a justification (amongst several considerations). I was happy to see science is finally looking at the protections of natural infection.
I’ll also say again that the federal government has tools to get some of the hesitant vaccinated. Make non-mrna vaccines widely available. I’m now wondering about the investments of journalists in Pfizer and moderna, since no one is asking why this isn’t being done.
As I typed the above, cbc had a doctor on who was making the point that given the current situation it seems reasonable to ease restrictions and end the segregation of the unvaccinated (transmission by the vaccinated being specifically cited). Which begs the question of the Prime Minister, why continue the divisive and antagonistic policies and rhetoric? What will it accomplish now?
trudeau is trying to get these idiots to end their occupation. it's interesting you call him antagonizing. he is the one RESPONDING to the antagonizing.
As I see it (feel free to disagree, I know many will), but Trudeau began laying the groundwork for the current protests when he chose to conquer and divide in the last election. These are his chickens coming home to roost.
It was very telling as I watched the emergency debate that all the parties were talking about the need to bring the people together. Except the Liberal party which wanted to unite Canadians by everyone acquiescing to their policies with zero negotiation.
I couldn't give two shits if omicron gives 30 million people the sniffles. if it stops 70% of those who would normally suffer severe outcomes, then yes, it's STILL HIGHLY EFFECTIVE.
it's weird to me to make such a substantial change in stance simply because you might get a runny nose now instead of not. why should that be the main driving factor? shouldn't DEATH be the main factor?
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6343730
I suggest you read this article, especially the statements regarding the trucker mandate where Lightbound confirms there has been no science to support the mandate (well, maybe there is, we’re all used to Trudeau not being “open and transparent” with any information by now).
Remember just before the pointless election (other than killing the order to produce the Winnipeg lab papers), all the health experts (who Trudeau claims he listens to) were practically begging politicians to NOT politicize vaccines? And right out of the gates Trudeau did.
It's their methods that bother me. and again, that restrictions are obviously on their way out anyway.
Lightbound was asking for proof to back up the government policies and like many others was also asking for the Prime Minister to take the temperature down on the situation. Haven’t seen evidence of either of those things, and enacting the EMA is the nuclear option, far out of proportion to the “problem” in my opinion.
This has become problematic because local law enforcement didn’t adequately prepare for what they knew was coming and once things were out of hand failed to manage the situation. How about we let the interim police chief try doing his job? Too late, EMA’s in effect.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzWckYfZhbA0 -
that's called frustration at people not doing what common sense tells you to do. he's been going to the podium for 2 years like a broken record asking people to do the smart thing. he's annoyed. I would be too. I am, actually.DarthMaeglin said:
Is this the illustration of people watching the same thing but seeing different things, lol?HughFreakingDillon said:I don't think he said anything that "spawned" the protest. Unless there's something i missed.
For me it began during the campaign where Trudeau just yelled at people to get vaccinated (as if he could tell at a glance who was and wasn’t, though he usually said “please,” lol).Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall0 -
I just didn’t see him building any bridges with that approach, despite his frustration (maybe some pride too, since he’d staked some of his reputation on everyone getting access to at least one shot (or was it fully vaccinated?) by the summer).HughFreakingDillon said:
that's called frustration at people not doing what common sense tells you to do. he's been going to the podium for 2 years like a broken record asking people to do the smart thing. he's annoyed. I would be too. I am, actually.DarthMaeglin said:
Is this the illustration of people watching the same thing but seeing different things, lol?HughFreakingDillon said:I don't think he said anything that "spawned" the protest. Unless there's something i missed.
For me it began during the campaign where Trudeau just yelled at people to get vaccinated (as if he could tell at a glance who was and wasn’t, though he usually said “please,” lol)."The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 20220 -
How mad? LMFAOPJ_Soul said:dignin said:
Exactly. Anyone paying attention to omicron waves in other places around the world knew it would hit hard and fast then retreat.HughFreakingDillon said:
I meant they had no affect on easing of restrictions.Nami said:
I have to respectfully disagree on your take regarding the convoy. I feel this was successful on a couple levels. One, being the publics increased involvement in politics once again- either for or against (I believe Oftenreading mentioned this before). Secondly, if anything it has shown that the people can have their voices heard regardless of the method or size and make an impact. Finally, Unity across all cultures. Yes yes i get you guys are against this.. ive seen it on the last hundred pages. HaHughFreakingDillon said:
yeah, because the pandemic has been static for two years.Meltdown99 said:Have at your vaccine. I was told if we get vaccinated all mandates are removed. They lied. It took these protest to move to bring these mandates to an end..I will not be taking anymore vaccine…lockdowns never worked. It put a strain on everyone who was effected in some way..Stop the bullshit.
these protests did nothing. these restrictions being lifted were in the works for weeks. but sure, keep on believing in your "victory". hahaha
lockdowns worked to ease the burden on the health care system; fact. but you don't care about doctors and nurses who have been demonized while healing the sick, spat on for doing their jobs, exhausted from treating the unvaccinated; just the "oppressed" truckers.
way to be on the right side.
If talks were taking place in January- why not interact with convoy to inform at that time? I guess you would still have protests (people camping out and such) but perhaps a smaller contingent not tying up the streets of Ottawa or across Canada. I think it was the pressure applied with the blocking of the ambassador bridge if anything that finally got it to the point we are at today. Pressure from Biden and the auto industry greased the wheels. Also, let me put on my tin foil hat for a sec haha, if talks/plans were in place, was this a ploy for JT to invoke the EMA? tighter Gov't controls?
To refer to this group as the free-dumb convoy as many of you have stated here, is just wrong, they are anything but imo.
bash away...
why any need to interact with them? this information was readily available anywhere you read. first alberta, then saskatchewan, then manitoba, we all knew it was going to be a domino effect, as long as it looked like the wave was heading downward, which all signs pointed to since December when we saw the modeling from South Africa (it was assumed and hoped we all would follow the same short trajectory-so far we have). so these people decided they were going to affect change that was already happening and claim victory. it's hilarious.
No politician this late in the pandemic wanted to keep restrictions on longer than needed. Especially given how well vaccines have worked and new effective treatments. The restrictions were put in place to mainly protect our healthcare system from the unvaccinated, we knew they would over burden our hospitals.
Sane Canadians knew that the end of this wave was coming soon, so we didn't feel the need to throw a tantrum and hurt more people unnecessarily. Smooth brains just couldn't help themselves though. Had to stick it to the Libs and hurt the Canadian economy. Could have just waited a couple of weeks.
Yup. What an absurd waste of time and money these morons have been and are still being. It really makes me mad.Give Peas A Chance…0 -
Building bridges … Trudeau is the most divisive prick to ever hold office. He’s a proven racist and misogynist….DarthMaeglin said:
I just didn’t see him building any bridges with that approach, despite his frustration (maybe some pride too, since he’d staked some of his reputation on everyone getting access to at least one shot (or was it fully vaccinated?) by the summer).HughFreakingDillon said:
that's called frustration at people not doing what common sense tells you to do. he's been going to the podium for 2 years like a broken record asking people to do the smart thing. he's annoyed. I would be too. I am, actually.DarthMaeglin said:
Is this the illustration of people watching the same thing but seeing different things, lol?HughFreakingDillon said:I don't think he said anything that "spawned" the protest. Unless there's something i missed.
For me it began during the campaign where Trudeau just yelled at people to get vaccinated (as if he could tell at a glance who was and wasn’t, though he usually said “please,” lol).
im not really sure how you even work with him anymore…but Singh will stay on his knees to Trudeau…he’s another useless dolt and had ties to terrorist…let’s go after that fucker…
The amount the amount people getting vaccinated after all these lies will fall to the same level of the seasonal flu .. Just watch. No one is getting 3, 4 or 5 or whatever it is for a shot that is just not that effective…
did you see the picture of Horgan in bc…it looks like death is on his doorstep…Post edited by Meltdown99 onGive Peas A Chance…0 -
-
I agree.mrussel1 said:
You're a good sport.DarthMaeglin said:
I was literally just thinking that one doesn’t get to poke the bear then blame the bear for being upset. Obviously we don’t agree about who the bear is, lol.mrussel1 said:
So there's a great White Stripes song (I guess the last, since it's the last song on Icky) called Effect and Cause. This reminds me of that. Everyone blaming JT, the police, RCMP, whoever for how they handled the situation. Well that's the effect. The cause was the Truckers and their shutting down of international commerce, as if they had that right. They don't. You can't take the effect, and make it the cause. HFD has it dead on in his post.DarthMaeglin said:
You’ve been fairly dismissive of Trudeau’s role in creating the angry environment that spawned this protest it seems, maybe I’ve misread you, but that’s how it’s come across.HughFreakingDillon said:
I'd already read this. you seem to think I support the cross border mandate. I don't. I think at this stage, it's meaningless. Protest away. I really have no idea why someone who spends most of their working life in solitary needs to be held to the same standard as those of us who work in groups. Or why it matters that there is an imaginary line that needs to drawn in the sand to keep people in America out. Or why these mandates apply to people in cars but not planes. it's absurd. But don't disrupt supply chains. Don't terrorize citizens with noise and obstruction. they've cost the canadian auto industry literally millions of dollars already. and then people like meltdown will bitch and moan when they ask for help. and people like him will bitch if trudeau gives it to them. and he'll bitch if trudeau doesn't give it to them. because this is less about mandates and mroe about hatred of our prime minister/liberals. maybe the truckers will start a gofundme for them? doubtful.DarthMaeglin said:
Why do you feel the need to keep reminding me of my own words regarding mitigation of outcomes?HughFreakingDillon said:
a liar? that he has an opinion that mirrors yours? that he was pro mandate but now because of how he views the vaccine's effectiveness as "very low" because it doesn't protect much against infection (but again, it does against severe outcomes)? again, that view makes no sense to me.DarthMaeglin said:
Just to be clear, you’re saying mandates were an evolution of policy, not a political tactic in an election? Is MP Lightbound a liar?HughFreakingDillon said:
policies tend to change as situations change. he was hoping enough people would be smart enough to get the jab.DarthMaeglin said:
You’ve apparently chosen (or just as likely see it differently) to not acknowledge Trudeau’s shift from “Canada doesn’t mandate vaccines” in June to “Mandates or the highway” when he called the election in August (credibly established by members of his own caucus). Remember the uproar over unvaccinated Conservatives when Parliament returned? Since the election he’s done everything he can to paint anyone (not minorities, obviously) who has questions or disagreements as anti-vaccine and a card-carrying Conservative. He has been utterly inflexible on his policies, despite only leading a minority government (clear mandate my ass).HughFreakingDillon said:
yes, we've all known this would happen for a while. we've all known that plans were in place since mid-january that most or all restrictions would end this coming spring. which makes this convoy all the more absurd. and the claim of victory laughable.DarthMaeglin said:
It would be a combination of hospitalization statistics, community spread, severity of the dominant strain, all balanced against our wonderful rights and freedoms. (I’m probably missing some factors to be considered, but that’s what jumps to top of mind.)HughFreakingDillon said:
what would that standard be, by the way? total collapse of our health care system? waiting until we put doctors in a "who lives and who dies today?" sort of situation?DarthMaeglin said:
Dude, I have numerous times openly acknowledged that the vaccines mitigate outcomes so I don’t know where you’re reading that.HughFreakingDillon said:
the end point was always about mitigating serious outcomes. curbing the spread was a bonus in the beginning, but hand washing, masking, and distancing was always the best to prevent spread.DarthMaeglin said:
Certainly I’ve never denied that outcomes are effected, I’ve simply been pointing out that the vaccines (presented as our way “out of” covid) are doing less and less (at this point zero in a practical sense) to prevent spread. If we’re going to continue to essentially force people to get vaccinated against covid to prevent outcomes not spread, there’s a whole lot of other diseases we should be mandating vaccines for.HughFreakingDillon said:
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/by-the-numbers-covid-19-vaccines-and-omicron#2-dose-Pfizer-vaccine-vs.-OmicronDarthMaeglin said:
I believe the statistic you keep citing was based on delta, not omicron. While delta does continue to circulate I don’t believe it’s currently the dominant strain, so the number isn’t necessarily accurate to right now.HughFreakingDillon said:yes, for the millionth fucking time: you can catch covid even if vaxxed. but it's 20 goddamn times less likely you'll die from it. ffs this is getting unreal.
omicron data still shows, while less effective against symptomatic infection, strong effectiveness against hospitalization and death.
there is no denying this.
in a practical sense, it is not "doing zero". it's seriously making me believe you just don't want to admit that the vaccines are highly effective at their job (preventing hospitalization and death) so there is no excuse for mandates.
I suppose I just have a very high standard for mandating behaviours, and yes, the initial science looked good (90-95% prevention of infection), but as nature took hold those numbers have dropped and dropped. If you’re going to force injections then I look for control of spread as a justification (amongst several considerations). I was happy to see science is finally looking at the protections of natural infection.
I’ll also say again that the federal government has tools to get some of the hesitant vaccinated. Make non-mrna vaccines widely available. I’m now wondering about the investments of journalists in Pfizer and moderna, since no one is asking why this isn’t being done.
As I typed the above, cbc had a doctor on who was making the point that given the current situation it seems reasonable to ease restrictions and end the segregation of the unvaccinated (transmission by the vaccinated being specifically cited). Which begs the question of the Prime Minister, why continue the divisive and antagonistic policies and rhetoric? What will it accomplish now?
trudeau is trying to get these idiots to end their occupation. it's interesting you call him antagonizing. he is the one RESPONDING to the antagonizing.
As I see it (feel free to disagree, I know many will), but Trudeau began laying the groundwork for the current protests when he chose to conquer and divide in the last election. These are his chickens coming home to roost.
It was very telling as I watched the emergency debate that all the parties were talking about the need to bring the people together. Except the Liberal party which wanted to unite Canadians by everyone acquiescing to their policies with zero negotiation.
I couldn't give two shits if omicron gives 30 million people the sniffles. if it stops 70% of those who would normally suffer severe outcomes, then yes, it's STILL HIGHLY EFFECTIVE.
it's weird to me to make such a substantial change in stance simply because you might get a runny nose now instead of not. why should that be the main driving factor? shouldn't DEATH be the main factor?
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6343730
I suggest you read this article, especially the statements regarding the trucker mandate where Lightbound confirms there has been no science to support the mandate (well, maybe there is, we’re all used to Trudeau not being “open and transparent” with any information by now).
Remember just before the pointless election (other than killing the order to produce the Winnipeg lab papers), all the health experts (who Trudeau claims he listens to) were practically begging politicians to NOT politicize vaccines? And right out of the gates Trudeau did.
It's their methods that bother me. and again, that restrictions are obviously on their way out anyway.
Lightbound was asking for proof to back up the government policies and like many others was also asking for the Prime Minister to take the temperature down on the situation. Haven’t seen evidence of either of those things, and enacting the EMA is the nuclear option, far out of proportion to the “problem” in my opinion.
This has become problematic because local law enforcement didn’t adequately prepare for what they knew was coming and once things were out of hand failed to manage the situation. How about we let the interim police chief try doing his job? Too late, EMA’s in effect.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzWckYfZhbA
Darth, I don't agree with you, but you're taking your lumps from us "Trudeau lovers" without resorting to whining. For that I am greatful.0 -
Thanks, I appreciate that, I try to be rational as much as I can and appreciate engagement on the same level. I just hope I don’t sound too much like a record stuck on loop, lol.dignin said:
I agree.mrussel1 said:
You're a good sport.DarthMaeglin said:
I was literally just thinking that one doesn’t get to poke the bear then blame the bear for being upset. Obviously we don’t agree about who the bear is, lol.mrussel1 said:
So there's a great White Stripes song (I guess the last, since it's the last song on Icky) called Effect and Cause. This reminds me of that. Everyone blaming JT, the police, RCMP, whoever for how they handled the situation. Well that's the effect. The cause was the Truckers and their shutting down of international commerce, as if they had that right. They don't. You can't take the effect, and make it the cause. HFD has it dead on in his post.DarthMaeglin said:
You’ve been fairly dismissive of Trudeau’s role in creating the angry environment that spawned this protest it seems, maybe I’ve misread you, but that’s how it’s come across.HughFreakingDillon said:
I'd already read this. you seem to think I support the cross border mandate. I don't. I think at this stage, it's meaningless. Protest away. I really have no idea why someone who spends most of their working life in solitary needs to be held to the same standard as those of us who work in groups. Or why it matters that there is an imaginary line that needs to drawn in the sand to keep people in America out. Or why these mandates apply to people in cars but not planes. it's absurd. But don't disrupt supply chains. Don't terrorize citizens with noise and obstruction. they've cost the canadian auto industry literally millions of dollars already. and then people like meltdown will bitch and moan when they ask for help. and people like him will bitch if trudeau gives it to them. and he'll bitch if trudeau doesn't give it to them. because this is less about mandates and mroe about hatred of our prime minister/liberals. maybe the truckers will start a gofundme for them? doubtful.DarthMaeglin said:
Why do you feel the need to keep reminding me of my own words regarding mitigation of outcomes?HughFreakingDillon said:
a liar? that he has an opinion that mirrors yours? that he was pro mandate but now because of how he views the vaccine's effectiveness as "very low" because it doesn't protect much against infection (but again, it does against severe outcomes)? again, that view makes no sense to me.DarthMaeglin said:
Just to be clear, you’re saying mandates were an evolution of policy, not a political tactic in an election? Is MP Lightbound a liar?HughFreakingDillon said:
policies tend to change as situations change. he was hoping enough people would be smart enough to get the jab.DarthMaeglin said:
You’ve apparently chosen (or just as likely see it differently) to not acknowledge Trudeau’s shift from “Canada doesn’t mandate vaccines” in June to “Mandates or the highway” when he called the election in August (credibly established by members of his own caucus). Remember the uproar over unvaccinated Conservatives when Parliament returned? Since the election he’s done everything he can to paint anyone (not minorities, obviously) who has questions or disagreements as anti-vaccine and a card-carrying Conservative. He has been utterly inflexible on his policies, despite only leading a minority government (clear mandate my ass).HughFreakingDillon said:
yes, we've all known this would happen for a while. we've all known that plans were in place since mid-january that most or all restrictions would end this coming spring. which makes this convoy all the more absurd. and the claim of victory laughable.DarthMaeglin said:
It would be a combination of hospitalization statistics, community spread, severity of the dominant strain, all balanced against our wonderful rights and freedoms. (I’m probably missing some factors to be considered, but that’s what jumps to top of mind.)HughFreakingDillon said:
what would that standard be, by the way? total collapse of our health care system? waiting until we put doctors in a "who lives and who dies today?" sort of situation?DarthMaeglin said:
Dude, I have numerous times openly acknowledged that the vaccines mitigate outcomes so I don’t know where you’re reading that.HughFreakingDillon said:
the end point was always about mitigating serious outcomes. curbing the spread was a bonus in the beginning, but hand washing, masking, and distancing was always the best to prevent spread.DarthMaeglin said:
Certainly I’ve never denied that outcomes are effected, I’ve simply been pointing out that the vaccines (presented as our way “out of” covid) are doing less and less (at this point zero in a practical sense) to prevent spread. If we’re going to continue to essentially force people to get vaccinated against covid to prevent outcomes not spread, there’s a whole lot of other diseases we should be mandating vaccines for.HughFreakingDillon said:
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/by-the-numbers-covid-19-vaccines-and-omicron#2-dose-Pfizer-vaccine-vs.-OmicronDarthMaeglin said:
I believe the statistic you keep citing was based on delta, not omicron. While delta does continue to circulate I don’t believe it’s currently the dominant strain, so the number isn’t necessarily accurate to right now.HughFreakingDillon said:yes, for the millionth fucking time: you can catch covid even if vaxxed. but it's 20 goddamn times less likely you'll die from it. ffs this is getting unreal.
omicron data still shows, while less effective against symptomatic infection, strong effectiveness against hospitalization and death.
there is no denying this.
in a practical sense, it is not "doing zero". it's seriously making me believe you just don't want to admit that the vaccines are highly effective at their job (preventing hospitalization and death) so there is no excuse for mandates.
I suppose I just have a very high standard for mandating behaviours, and yes, the initial science looked good (90-95% prevention of infection), but as nature took hold those numbers have dropped and dropped. If you’re going to force injections then I look for control of spread as a justification (amongst several considerations). I was happy to see science is finally looking at the protections of natural infection.
I’ll also say again that the federal government has tools to get some of the hesitant vaccinated. Make non-mrna vaccines widely available. I’m now wondering about the investments of journalists in Pfizer and moderna, since no one is asking why this isn’t being done.
As I typed the above, cbc had a doctor on who was making the point that given the current situation it seems reasonable to ease restrictions and end the segregation of the unvaccinated (transmission by the vaccinated being specifically cited). Which begs the question of the Prime Minister, why continue the divisive and antagonistic policies and rhetoric? What will it accomplish now?
trudeau is trying to get these idiots to end their occupation. it's interesting you call him antagonizing. he is the one RESPONDING to the antagonizing.
As I see it (feel free to disagree, I know many will), but Trudeau began laying the groundwork for the current protests when he chose to conquer and divide in the last election. These are his chickens coming home to roost.
It was very telling as I watched the emergency debate that all the parties were talking about the need to bring the people together. Except the Liberal party which wanted to unite Canadians by everyone acquiescing to their policies with zero negotiation.
I couldn't give two shits if omicron gives 30 million people the sniffles. if it stops 70% of those who would normally suffer severe outcomes, then yes, it's STILL HIGHLY EFFECTIVE.
it's weird to me to make such a substantial change in stance simply because you might get a runny nose now instead of not. why should that be the main driving factor? shouldn't DEATH be the main factor?
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6343730
I suggest you read this article, especially the statements regarding the trucker mandate where Lightbound confirms there has been no science to support the mandate (well, maybe there is, we’re all used to Trudeau not being “open and transparent” with any information by now).
Remember just before the pointless election (other than killing the order to produce the Winnipeg lab papers), all the health experts (who Trudeau claims he listens to) were practically begging politicians to NOT politicize vaccines? And right out of the gates Trudeau did.
It's their methods that bother me. and again, that restrictions are obviously on their way out anyway.
Lightbound was asking for proof to back up the government policies and like many others was also asking for the Prime Minister to take the temperature down on the situation. Haven’t seen evidence of either of those things, and enacting the EMA is the nuclear option, far out of proportion to the “problem” in my opinion.
This has become problematic because local law enforcement didn’t adequately prepare for what they knew was coming and once things were out of hand failed to manage the situation. How about we let the interim police chief try doing his job? Too late, EMA’s in effect.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzWckYfZhbA
Darth, I don't agree with you, but you're taking your lumps from us "Trudeau lovers" without resorting to whining. For that I am greatful.
Edit: I realized overnight that "rational" isn't exactly the right word, but hope my meaning was understood, lol.Post edited by DarthMaeglin on"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 20220 -
It’s not up to this racist misogynist divisive prick to decide…we have courts…Give Peas A Chance…0
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I did see Horgan at today’s presser, didn’t he just complete cancer treatments? If I’m right then he does look a bit rough, but pretty good all things considered.Meltdown99 said:
Building bridges … Trudeau is the most divisive prick to ever hold office. He’s a proven racist and misogynist….DarthMaeglin said:
I just didn’t see him building any bridges with that approach, despite his frustration (maybe some pride too, since he’d staked some of his reputation on everyone getting access to at least one shot (or was it fully vaccinated?) by the summer).HughFreakingDillon said:
that's called frustration at people not doing what common sense tells you to do. he's been going to the podium for 2 years like a broken record asking people to do the smart thing. he's annoyed. I would be too. I am, actually.DarthMaeglin said:
Is this the illustration of people watching the same thing but seeing different things, lol?HughFreakingDillon said:I don't think he said anything that "spawned" the protest. Unless there's something i missed.
For me it began during the campaign where Trudeau just yelled at people to get vaccinated (as if he could tell at a glance who was and wasn’t, though he usually said “please,” lol).
im not really sure how you even work with him anymore…but Singh will stay on his knees to Trudeau…he’s another useless dolt and had ties to terrorist…let’s go after that fucker…
The amount the amount people getting vaccinated after all these lies will fall to the same level of the seasonal flu .. Just watch. No one is getting 3, 4 or 5 or whatever it is for a shot that is just not that effective…
did you see the picture of Horgan in bc…it looks like death is on his doorstep…"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 20220 -
If Trudeau told his cultist to drink toilet water…they would no questions asked.Give Peas A Chance…0
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