Some people can't be saved

usamamasan1

Self worth much?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/07/22/seattle-sees-fallout-from-15-minimum-wage-as-other-cities-follow-suit/

Seattle’s $15 minimum wage law is supposed to lift workers out of poverty and move them off public assistance. But there may be a hitch in the plan.

Evidence is surfacing that some workers are asking their bosses for fewer hours as their wages rise – in a bid to keep overall income down so they don’t lose public subsidies for things like food, child care and rent.

Full Life Care, a home nursing nonprofit, told KIRO-TV in Seattle that several workers want to work less.

“If they cut down their hours to stay on those subsidies because the $15 per hour minimum wage didn’t actually help get them out of poverty, all you’ve done is put a burden on the business and given false hope to a lot of people,” said Jason Rantz, host of the Jason Rantz show on 97.3 KIRO-FM.

The twist is just one apparent side effect of the controversial -- yet trendsetting -- minimum wage law in Seattle, which is being copied in several other cities despite concerns over prices rising and businesses struggling to keep up.

The notion that employees are intentionally working less to preserve their welfare has been a hot topic on talk radio. While the claims are difficult to track, state stats indeed suggest few are moving off welfare programs under the new wage.

Despite a booming economy throughout western Washington, the state’s welfare caseload has dropped very little since the higher wage phase began in Seattle in April. In March 130,851 people were enrolled in the Basic Food program. In April, the caseload dropped to 130,376.

At the same time, prices appear to be going up on just about everything.

Some restaurants have tacked on a 15 percent surcharge to cover the higher wages. And some managers are no longer encouraging customers to tip, leading to a redistribution of income. Workers in the back of the kitchen, such as dishwashers and cooks, are getting paid more, but servers who rely on tips are seeing a pay cut.

Some long-time Seattle restaurants have closed altogether, though none of the owners publicly blamed the minimum wage law.

“It’s what happens when the government imposes a restriction on the labor market that normally wouldn’t be there, and marginal businesses get hit the hardest, and usually those are small, neighborhood businesses,” said Paul Guppy, of the Washington Policy Center.

Seattle was followed by San Francisco and Los Angeles in passing a $15 minimum wage law. The wage is being phased in over several years to give businesses time to adjust. The current minimum wage in Seattle is $11. In San Francisco, it’s $12.25.

And it is spreading. Beyond the city of Los Angeles, the Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors this week also approved a $15 minimum wage.

New York state could be next, with the state Wage Board on Wednesday backing a $15 wage for fast-food workers, something Gov. Andrew Cuomo has supported.

Already, though, there are unintended consequences in other cities.

Comix Experience, a small book store in downtown San Francisco, has begun selling graphic novel club subscriptions in order to meet payroll. The owner, Brian Hibbs, admits members are not getting all that much for their $25 per month dues, but their “donation” is keeping him in business.

“I was looking at potentially having to close the store down and then how would I make my living?” Hibbs asked.

To date, he’s sold 228 subscriptions. He says he needs 334 to reach his goal of the $80,000 income required to cover higher labor costs. He doesn’t blame San Francisco voters for approving the $15 minimum wage, but he doesn’t think they had all the information needed to make a good decision

Last-12-Exit

The more you give, the more they will take.

SPEEDY MCCREADY

I'm fucking shocked.

InHiding80

You lost me at Fox News.

PJfanwillneverleave1

Where they have more,
Still they take more
(Always liked that lyric in GD)

brianlux

Of course Fox would oppose a living wage. No surprise there.

rr165892

Maybe some of our more liberal Train Brothers and sisters will see that Just raising the min wage isn't the silver bullet out of poverty many claim.And just because someone pastes a fox story,dosent mean it's not true.They are giving real world examples on how it's effecting many.More concerning to me is even after raising wages some folks still want to slow earnings to keep suckling on the Govt Tit of entitlements.Maybe we should also be looking at that aspect if we are going to tweek the system then let's have some common sense laws that will stimulate the economy,benefit both workers and employers and encourage less dependence on the Fed to pay subsidies for those who work.Just my 2 cents.

rr165892

Last-12-Exit said:

The more you give, the more they will take.

Bingo.

Last-12-Exit

If I remember correctly, people were worried that once minimum wage was increased, the employers would cut the workers hours. Who knew it would be the other way around.

josevolution

No lets just keep the low income people down after all they choose those careers I say fuck the poor and welfare recipients fuck e'm , as long as the rich keep getting richer we should be ok in this country trickle down economy works great lol ....

rgambs

I know it's too early for any meaningful statistics and data, but this seems like it could be a hack job. It's all anecdotal and biased to one side, it would be very very easy to seek out conservative parties to make this report and make it seem like a trend.

rgambs

"Some long-time Seattle restaurants have closed altogether, though none of the owners publicly blamed the minimum wage law."

That is not journalism, it is biased sensationalism. They know their more wacko consumers (their bread and butter lol) will take it as fact that the minimum wage increase is the reason for business closings.

rr165892

josevolution said:

No lets just keep the low income people down after all they choose those careers I say fuck the poor and welfare recipients fuck e'm , as long as the rich keep getting richer we should be ok in this country trickle down economy works great lol ....

Who's saying that?
This is not talking about the plight of the lower income workers,but more about how policy is creating new issues.Anytime we institute changes I think it's healthy to see how it affects EVERYONE involved.The good and the Bad.
Jose,don't be so blinded by your biases.

callen

Way too early to draw conclusions.

Jason P

I predict people will be quitting jobs that pay less then $15 / hr, but in a field that can advance their career if they stick to it and lead to a higher salary in a few years, to go flip burgers at McDonalds.

PJ_Soul

rr165892 said:

Last-12-Exit said:

The more you give, the more they will take.

Bingo.

Can I see some hard numbers to back that up please? I have no reason to think that this problem is widespread. I have heard that it happens, but if it's only a relatively small number out of everyone, then that is basing an opinion on the exception instead of the rule.

oftenreading

rgambs said:

"Some long-time Seattle restaurants have closed altogether, though none of the owners publicly blamed the minimum wage law."

That is not journalism, it is biased sensationalism. They know their more wacko consumers (their bread and butter lol) will take it as fact that the minimum wage increase is the reason for business closings.

Indeed. There are restaurants closing all the time; they are one of the most fickle businesses around.

eddiec

"Evidence is surfacing that some workers are asking their bosses for fewer hours as their wages rise"

What's 'some'? Is it 3 workers or 3000?

Besides, rich people will use every angle possible to decrease their taxes and screw the government. If 'some' of these people worked out that it is beneficial to work less and come out better then the system is at fault and not the people.

jeffbr

I think it is too early to tell what the fallout will be, but I'm surprised that people would be caught off guard by unintended consequences of government initiatives. Nobody is surprised when we do something to the balance of the ecosystem and there are consequences. So why are you surprised when something changes the balance of the economy like this? While the OP quoted a Fox news article that some will dismiss out of hand due to the source, there have been plenty of stories here in Seattle from mainstream media regarding the effects of this wage increase. The article in the OP talked about public assistance enrollment not dropping in April, but again, just might be too early to tell. I agree that we can't draw conclusions from that. Yet.

But there has been fallout. People are starting to leave No Tip cards instead of a tip. At least one restaurant closed with the owner claiming that it was already too difficult to do business in the city, and this minimum wage hike was the impetus for finally quitting. Some restaurants are adding surcharges to the bill to cover the wage increase. Other restaurants have increased prices on their menus as a direct result of the increased wages. So there are plenty of real, tangible negatives results that have been reported on over the past couple of months. But like I said, I don't know that we can draw any real conclusions at this point until we get more data over a longer period of time. If the public assistance enrollment indeed doesn't drop, and if prices continue to rise, and if shops do start closing as a direct result of the wage increase, then I will consider the increase a failure on every level. If none of these things happen, public assistance enrollment decreases, and everyone is happy, then I'll gladly declare it a success. But again, I think we need to wait before drawing any conclusions here.

Jason P

The other thing I predict is that people currently working at fast food joints will soon find themselves under-qualified as a more robust labor force sets forth due to the better pay.

callen

Jason P said:

The other thing I predict is that people currently working at fast food joints will soon find themselves under-qualified as a more robust labor force sets forth due to the better pay.

Interesting point.



Maybe Better service for us and ultimately more revenue for businesses.

Jason P

callen said:

Jason P said:

The other thing I predict is that people currently working at fast food joints will soon find themselves under-qualified as a more robust labor force sets forth due to the better pay.

Interesting point.



Maybe Better service for us and ultimately more revenue for businesses.

Possibly. I guess will shall soon find out, although I think I remember reading that the raise is parlayed in increments over four or five years before it is actually $15/hr

Gern Blansten

"Some people"....come on folks. This is Fox News. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

How did the wage increase benefit those not included as "some people"? Critical thinking please.

Last-12-Exit

Gern Blansten said:

"Some people"....come on folks. This is Fox News. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

How did the wage increase benefit those not included as "some people"? Critical thinking please.

Don't throw out the baby with the bath water?

I've never heard that before.

mookeywrench

Observations: Tips are down, rents are up, small businesses are closing or relocating out of Seattle, public assistance unchanged.

Some are knee-jerk reactions, some are a mixed result of a stronger economy, but in the long-term, this $15.00 minimum wage is going to have no effect on it's intended purpose.

And to whoever said rich people will use every angle to decrease their taxes; I've worked with a range of clients who earn $20-30k a year and clients who earn $8m-10m a year. They all use every angle to decrease their taxes.

rgambs

mookeywrench said:

Observations: Tips are down, rents are up, small businesses are closing or relocating out of Seattle, public assistance unchanged.

Some are knee-jerk reactions, some are a mixed result of a stronger economy, but in the long-term, this $15.00 minimum wage is going to have no effect on it's intended purpose.

And to whoever said rich people will use every angle to decrease their taxes; I've worked with a range of clients who earn $20-30k a year and clients who earn $8m-10m a year. They all use every angle to decrease their taxes.

It's true they all try to decrease their taxes, but it's also true that more money opens doors to actually making that happen.

Godfather.

...there are actually people that want less money and less work and more government hand outs ?????? who'd a think'it ? everybody screams for a "liveable wage" or a "job" and then turn it down when they get it so they wont lose the government freebies, or the business forced to pay a higher wage pack it up and close the doors....generation after generations of familys learn how to use the welfare system and not work...this has affected our economy, driving up this countrys cost of doing business, well this is what you get when you make medical,money and housing available to people that claim they can't work or even easier come here ilegally and tap into the system, welcome to welfare America ! step right in ! our national debt is about $18 trillion and growing but who cares ?we'll just print up some money to pay for welfare abusers and ilegal (from all over the world) leaches
yeah that's it lets keep the gates of our borders open, send more printed money to other countries and we'll be just fine !

Godfather.

PJ_Soul

Numbers please. I want to see how many people do this. Sounds like some people are making massive, uninformed, biased generalizations about this.

mookeywrench

rgambs said:

mookeywrench said:

Observations: Tips are down, rents are up, small businesses are closing or relocating out of Seattle, public assistance unchanged.

Some are knee-jerk reactions, some are a mixed result of a stronger economy, but in the long-term, this $15.00 minimum wage is going to have no effect on it's intended purpose.

And to whoever said rich people will use every angle to decrease their taxes; I've worked with a range of clients who earn $20-30k a year and clients who earn $8m-10m a year. They all use every angle to decrease their taxes.

It's true they all try to decrease their taxes, but it's also true that more money opens doors to actually making that happen.

Just as earning more money closes doors to available credits and deductions. And saying 'actually making it happen' implies that only the wealthy are the ones who are having any success at lowering their tax bill, which isn't the case at all.

In fact, if you compare someone's effective tax rate pre-deductions and post-deductions, I'd be willing to bet, the vast majority of the time, the low and middle income earners will come out with a wider variance than the high income earners. Deductions can only take save you so much as the majority of them are not designed to save tax in direct proportion to one's income.

Gern Blansten

mookeywrench said:

Observations: Tips are down, rents are up, small businesses are closing or relocating out of Seattle, public assistance unchanged.

Some are knee-jerk reactions, some are a mixed result of a stronger economy, but in the long-term, this $15.00 minimum wage is going to have no effect on it's intended purpose.

And to whoever said rich people will use every angle to decrease their taxes; I've worked with a range of clients who earn $20-30k a year and clients who earn $8m-10m a year. They all use every angle to decrease their taxes.

Yeah but the difference is that those making $20-$30K need all their money to eat...the rich have that covered X1000

rgambs

mookeywrench said:

rgambs said:

mookeywrench said:

Observations: Tips are down, rents are up, small businesses are closing or relocating out of Seattle, public assistance unchanged.

Some are knee-jerk reactions, some are a mixed result of a stronger economy, but in the long-term, this $15.00 minimum wage is going to have no effect on it's intended purpose.

And to whoever said rich people will use every angle to decrease their taxes; I've worked with a range of clients who earn $20-30k a year and clients who earn $8m-10m a year. They all use every angle to decrease their taxes.

It's true they all try to decrease their taxes, but it's also true that more money opens doors to actually making that happen.

Just as earning more money closes doors to available credits and deductions. And saying 'actually making it happen' implies that only the wealthy are the ones who are having any success at lowering their tax bill, which isn't the case at all.

In fact, if you compare someone's effective tax rate pre-deductions and post-deductions, I'd be willing to bet, the vast majority of the time, the low and middle income earners will come out with a wider variance than the high income earners. Deductions can only take save you so much as the majority of them are not designed to save tax in direct proportion to one's income.

Deductions are the least sophisticated means of tax evasion though, and are not the problem. Tax havens, accounting tricks, favorable capital gains tax, those sorts of things are only available at higher income levels.