Cleveland, tell me about it

dankind

I grew up in the era of Jordan, and I worshipped at his altar for years. Having said that, there’s no contest, LeBron is better—both sides of the ball, in the paint, from the field, all-around basketball god. 

HesCalledDyer

Both sides of the ball?  Then why does Jordan have twice as many All-Defensive First Team awards and 1 more DPOY award than Lebron (for clarification, Jordan has 1, Lebron 0).  Jordan led the league in steals 3 times. Lebron 0.  More League MVPs, more Finals MVPS, 10x scoring champion compared to Lebron's 1.

I get so tired of the "supporting cast" debate, too.  Lebron has played with more than twice as many All-Stars as Jordan ever did.  Only 6 times in Jordan's career was there ever another All-Star on those Bulls teams.  The other 9 times Jordan was an All-Star he was the ONLY Bull on the roster.  Lebron has had 14 All-Stars carry him.

Let's not even start with the numbers of years the 10th or 11th seed in the Western Conference could have been the 4 or 5 seed in the East. The competition doesn't even compare.  Jordan had to go thru Thomas, Bird, Barkley, Miller, Ewing, Shaq, Grandmama, Wilkins, Mourning, et al on a yearly basis.  Who's Lebron had to go thru?  Paul George and Carmelo Anthony?  Well, rit-dit-dit-dit-doo.

End of debate.  Jordan > Lebron.  Stop embarrassing yourselves trying to claim otherwise.

What's that jersey # that Lebron wears on his back?  Even Lebron himself knows what's up.

KC138045

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timdwilli

HesCalledDyer said:

Both sides of the ball?  Then why does Jordan have twice as many All-Defensive First Team awards and 1 more DPOY award than Lebron (for clarification, Jordan has 1, Lebron 0).  Jordan led the league in steals 3 times. Lebron 0.  More League MVPs, more Finals MVPS, 10x scoring champion compared to Lebron's 1.

I get so tired of the "supporting cast" debate, too.  Lebron has played with more than twice as many All-Stars as Jordan ever did.  Only 6 times in Jordan's career was there ever another All-Star on those Bulls teams.  The other 9 times Jordan was an All-Star he was the ONLY Bull on the roster.  Lebron has had 14 All-Stars carry him.

Let's not even start with the numbers of years the 10th or 11th seed in the Western Conference could have been the 4 or 5 seed in the East. The competition doesn't even compare.  Jordan had to go thru Thomas, Bird, Barkley, Miller, Ewing, Shaq, Grandmama, Wilkins, Mourning, et al on a yearly basis.  Who's Lebron had to go thru?  Paul George and Carmelo Anthony?  Well, rit-dit-dit-dit-doo.

End of debate.  Jordan > Lebron.  Stop embarrassing yourselves trying to claim otherwise.

What's that jersey # that Lebron wears on his back?  Even Lebron himself knows what's up.

If he somehow finds a way to win this series, the debate is over forever...LBJ is the GOAT. Go Cavs!!

HesCalledDyer

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.  One series doesn't define the careers of two individuals.

timdwilli

HesCalledDyer said:

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.  One series doesn't define the careers of two individuals.

Of course it doesn't...but a win as the biggest Finals underdog in two decades would put Lebron ahead of Michael or whoever (if he's not already). I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing Michael was always favored in the Finals. And for the sake of the "all around player" debate, it should be noted that LBJ avg one more rebound and two more assists per game than MJ. And while I get the stats on All Star teammates, Lebron has NEVER had someone on Scottie Pippen's level. Scottie is the most underappreciated player in league history IMO

mrussel1

HesCalledDyer said:

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.  One series doesn't define the careers of two individuals.

Jordan never played a team with a fraction of the talent that Golden State has.  In fact, I'm not sure there was ever an opponent that Jordan played in the finals that had more talent than the Bulls.  He did play superior teams in the EC several times (likely) but he lost many times, including in the first round.  I don't think LBJ ever did that.  

I noticed you left off the fact that Lebron is number 7 all time in assists.  Jordan's not in the top 25.  Lebron is in the 17 in steals (Jordan 3).  One could easily argue that Lebron is more of a well rounded player, capable of playing 4 positions.  Jordan couldn't play four positions.  He could NEVER play the 4 or anything deeper.  

Regarding the "twice as many all stars" comments, are you counting number of all star appearances or all star players?  Jordan played on a fairly stable team for his career.  So counting players is misleading.  Jordan played with Pippen.  Who is Lebron's Pippen?  D-Wade?  Maybe... he won two championships in four years together.  

Poncier

Actually one of the finals against the Jazz, Bulls were a slight underdog. (Jazz were -120, Bulls were +100), I was shocked at that line when I called in to the maker of book.

timdwilli

Looks like we were typing the same sentiment simultaneously haha

mrussel1

I personally don't like the GOAT conversation.  Jordan was great.  Lebron is great.  They are heads and shoulders above teh rest.  They both, unlike anyone except maybe Will, dominated the game and league.  They are/were both the Sun of the basketball universe.  Everything revolves around them and there's good reason for that.  Arguing whether 6 rings is better than 3 or if being the #1 scorer in the playoffs (and likely the all time record) is somehow a trump card argument is useless.  Maybe it's fun... but it's useless.  But I see the Jordan people get all amped up about this.  And they end up not appreciating what they are watching and the fact that it's generational.  

dankind

Please note that my take is purely anecdotal: I'm going by merely watching LeBron now vs. my memory of watching Jordan then.

Michael Jordan was and still is way more liked than LeBron as well. Popularity goes a long way with the folks who dole out awards. 

I never knew a single person who disliked Jordan, even when he was absolutely crushing their team, whereas the line for LeBron haters likely wraps around the globe a few times.

Stats are another story. 

mrussel1

dankind said:

Please note that my take is purely anecdotal: I'm going by merely watching LeBron now vs. my memory of watching Jordan then.

Michael Jordan was and still is way more liked than LeBron as well. Popularity goes a long way with the folks who dole out awards. 

I never knew a single person who disliked Jordan, even when he was absolutely crushing their team, whereas the line for LeBron haters likely wraps around the globe a few times.

Stats are another story. 

But for what reason?  It's idiotic.  The guy was on the cover of SI in high school, yet here he is... always doing the right things, staying out of trouble, being a global ambassador, the work he does for Akron is crazy!  

I admit to hating him for exactly four years.  But that was just being hurt.  If he loves now, any Clevelander will be sad, but no one thinks he owes us a thing.  He paid all of his debts with class.  He sure as hell didn't have to leave the league for a few years "to play baseball".  The difference between the two as people is pretty stark, in my book.  

timdwilli

A quick aside to this debate, I actually "met" MJ once. I was just in the right place at the right time (and apparently had the perfect amount of booze in my system) at the Kentucky Derby. He was walking in from his limo and I walked by and just said, "What's up, Mike?" and nodded at him without breaking stride. My buddies I was with said he actually paused and looked for a second like he might actually know me...they also said it was the single coolest thing I will ever do in my life which is hard to argue with haha. Just wish I had a better recollection of it!

dankind

timdwilli said:

A quick aside to this debate, I actually "met" MJ once. I was just in the right place at the right time (and apparently had the perfect amount of booze in my system) at the Kentucky Derby. He was walking in from his limo and I walked by and just said, "What's up, Mike?" and nodded at him without breaking stride. My buddies I was with said he actually paused and looked for a second like he might actually know me...they also said it was the single coolest thing I will ever do in my life which is hard to argue with haha. Just wish I had a better recollection of it!

I missed meeting MJ by probably a minute. My high school girlfriend and her mother met him in the concourse at the Dean Dome while waiting for her dad and I to exit the men's room. Sonofabitch!

KC138045

timdwilli said:

A quick aside to this debate, I actually "met" MJ once. I was just in the right place at the right time (and apparently had the perfect amount of booze in my system) at the Kentucky Derby. He was walking in from his limo and I walked by and just said, "What's up, Mike?" and nodded at him without breaking stride. My buddies I was with said he actually paused and looked for a second like he might actually know me...they also said it was the single coolest thing I will ever do in my life which is hard to argue with haha. Just wish I had a better recollection of it!

My brother use to be a golf pro at a course in Mansfield, Ohio close to where Mid Ohio race track is.  Jordan was in town for something at the race track and he played a round or two of golf there while he was in town.

timdwilli

KC138045 said:

timdwilli said:

A quick aside to this debate, I actually "met" MJ once. I was just in the right place at the right time (and apparently had the perfect amount of booze in my system) at the Kentucky Derby. He was walking in from his limo and I walked by and just said, "What's up, Mike?" and nodded at him without breaking stride. My buddies I was with said he actually paused and looked for a second like he might actually know me...they also said it was the single coolest thing I will ever do in my life which is hard to argue with haha. Just wish I had a better recollection of it!

My brother use to be a golf pro at a course in Mansfield, Ohio close to where Mid Ohio race track is.  Jordan was in town for something at the race track and he played a round or two of golf there while he was in town.

I'm gonna guess there was heavy gambling taking place at both the track and the course! What course was it? I grew up in Marion and Mansfield/Lexington/Ashland schools were our league in sports.

KC138045

timdwilli said:

KC138045 said:

timdwilli said:

A quick aside to this debate, I actually "met" MJ once. I was just in the right place at the right time (and apparently had the perfect amount of booze in my system) at the Kentucky Derby. He was walking in from his limo and I walked by and just said, "What's up, Mike?" and nodded at him without breaking stride. My buddies I was with said he actually paused and looked for a second like he might actually know me...they also said it was the single coolest thing I will ever do in my life which is hard to argue with haha. Just wish I had a better recollection of it!

My brother use to be a golf pro at a course in Mansfield, Ohio close to where Mid Ohio race track is.  Jordan was in town for something at the race track and he played a round or two of golf there while he was in town.

I'm gonna guess there was heavy gambling taking place at both the track and the course! What course was it? I grew up in Marion and Mansfield/Lexington/Ashland schools were our league in sports.

Westbrook Country Club.  My brother lives in Lexington.  Its just a short 45 minute drive for me so I'm up there quite often.

Poncier

dankind said:

timdwilli said:

A quick aside to this debate, I actually "met" MJ once. I was just in the right place at the right time (and apparently had the perfect amount of booze in my system) at the Kentucky Derby. He was walking in from his limo and I walked by and just said, "What's up, Mike?" and nodded at him without breaking stride. My buddies I was with said he actually paused and looked for a second like he might actually know me...they also said it was the single coolest thing I will ever do in my life which is hard to argue with haha. Just wish I had a better recollection of it!

I missed meeting MJ by probably a minute. My high school girlfriend and her mother met him in the concourse at the Dean Dome while waiting for her dad and I to exit the men's room. Sonofabitch!

That's why you should never give it more than 2 shakes after you finish.

dankind

Poncier said:

dankind said:

timdwilli said:

A quick aside to this debate, I actually "met" MJ once. I was just in the right place at the right time (and apparently had the perfect amount of booze in my system) at the Kentucky Derby. He was walking in from his limo and I walked by and just said, "What's up, Mike?" and nodded at him without breaking stride. My buddies I was with said he actually paused and looked for a second like he might actually know me...they also said it was the single coolest thing I will ever do in my life which is hard to argue with haha. Just wish I had a better recollection of it!

I missed meeting MJ by probably a minute. My high school girlfriend and her mother met him in the concourse at the Dean Dome while waiting for her dad and I to exit the men's room. Sonofabitch!

That's why you should never give it more than 2 shakes after you finish.

HesCalledDyer

1991: Lakers with Magic, Worthy, & Divac

1992: Blazers with Drexler, Porter, Kersey, & Williams

1993: Suns with Barkley, Majerle, & Johnson

1996: Sonics with Kemp, Payton, Perkins, & Hawkins

1997-98: Jazz with Malone, Stockton, & Hornacek

Don't tell me Jordan never faced talent like Golden State.  That's the biggest load of crap.  Half of those teams he faced in the Finals had equal or better regular season records than Jordan's Bulls.

Oh, one more thing... they pleayed defense in the NBA in the 90s, too.