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Iran Deal, the reset.....

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  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 21,006
    BS44325 said:

    i_lov_it said:

    Well just watching the news and John Kerry said that this deal is to make the World safer.

    All while Iran secures missle components

    http://freebeacon.com/national-security/north-korea-transfers-missile-goods-to-iran-during-nuclear-talks/
    Umm, reports are that russia will sell sell missle tech to Iran
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  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 21,006
    You know, even if congress succedes in blocking U.S involvement in the deal and keeps sanctions in place on our end , that doesn't stop the rest of the world in saying fuck you congress and lifting their end of things.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,082
    mickeyrat said:

    BS44325 said:

    i_lov_it said:

    Well just watching the news and John Kerry said that this deal is to make the World safer.

    All while Iran secures missle components

    http://freebeacon.com/national-security/north-korea-transfers-missile-goods-to-iran-during-nuclear-talks/
    Umm, reports are that russia will sell sell missle tech to Iran
    Yup. Russia as well. They delayed that sale as part of the "reset" but apparently the reset is over.
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,553
    Sounds like they are having success in moving toward "the bomb" (BS coined it and I like it, succinct and potent) without the deal, so why is it bad again??
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 18,801


    No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.

    I agree that the clerics are discussing the negotiations are doing this because the sanctions are doing exactly as intended and are empowering the younger generation to put pressure on them. If Obama cuts a deal, they are fucked and the clerics retain power. They get to keep their nuclear program and resume their oppression. And Obama gets to look like a humanitarian.

    Ironic, don't ya think?

    I've never been to Iran, have you? I don't claim to be an expert. If Iran had freedom of press, I may be able to determine a more accurate picture of their society, but they don't, so I can't.

    And perhaps there is an element of their society that doesn't embrace Western culture, but I'm sure that the Iranian feminist, LGBT, and even lovers of dancing and music do.

    Also, I've railed about this within the American political landscape for years. 10 year plans are complete bullshit. Every politician, no matter their affiliation, loves the the ten year promise. It's because their is no accountability in a 10 year plan. It gives them 10 years to make an excuse in case the rare event that someone remembers what they promised 10 years ago.
  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 23,205
    benjs said:

    hedonist said:

    My mother is Persian, and given that all but less than a handful of my German father's relatives lived through the Holocaust, my mom's side - huge family between here in LA, in NY and in London - and that Iranian culture - have been a constant.

    Definitely for better and worse. But whatever - part of me.

    We spent a summer in Tehran before the revolution and while it was so beautifully welcoming and sensual, warm and colorful (bless the food but fuck the traffic!), there was also a sense of oppression, of that have-to-look-around and check yourself feeling. Not in the usual (common) sense, but in a you-might-be-seriously-fucked-with sense.

    Have mentioned before about having grown men at a construction site throwing stones at my physically-developed but eleven-year-old self. I will never forget it, their anger - such anger; how within whatever tenet can you reconcile your actions and conscience? - toward a girl wearing a tube top because it was hot.

    Fuck that, and fuck them. You don't do that. You don't act like that.

    And within my own family, I see prejudice that breaks my heart. Not necessarily an anti-US stance - the first generation came here in the late 40s with pretty much nothing and built businesses, families, communities, lives. But there is much close-mindedness in many veins. Traditions and lifestyles to be upheld, and attempts - from the older generation - to shame those who value choice and forging their / our own paths.

    All that said, I wouldn't be myself without all of that, good, bad or within the spectrum.

    Didn't intend to so ramble on! Just wanted to give my perspective.

    This is fascinating to hear about. Thanks for the insight, Hedonist.

    I'll be honest: the close-mindedness, the attachment to old-age traditions and values, the negative spin on choice and change - these are constants in a vast amount of different sects.

    It happens in Judaism (and I would assume many other religions): why do we have derogative terms for "non-Jews"? Why has it been deemed unacceptable by many Jewish communities to not advocate for blind acceptance of any Israeli actions?
    It happens in Canadian culture: why with a church/state division do we still call out to a god to keep our land glorious and free? Why is it still illegal to drag a dead horse down Yonge Street in Toronto on a Sunday?
    It happened amongst white supremacists: Slave owners certainly would've frowned on promoting the black liberation movement.

    Traditions, by virtue of what they are, represent older-time mentalities, which are (at least sometimes) not of proper 'today' mindset, omitting concepts such as equality, righteousness, and justice. Shame and guilt have always been present to help traditions maintain their places in peoples' lives.
    Are you really in your early/mid-20s? You have a wise - and openminded but realistic - perspective.

    Yes, same as you are - my family is Jewish and I've seen hypocrisy and double standards in both the sense of fervency and action. Actually from the younger generation too. Agreed it's among most if not all religions (hell, I do it myself at times).

    And Jason, this - And perhaps there is an element of their society that doesn't embrace Western culture, but I'm sure that the Iranian feminist, LGBT, and even lovers of dancing and music do.

    Absolutely.
  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 8,373
    hedonist said:

    benjs said:

    hedonist said:

    My mother is Persian, and given that all but less than a handful of my German father's relatives lived through the Holocaust, my mom's side - huge family between here in LA, in NY and in London - and that Iranian culture - have been a constant.

    Definitely for better and worse. But whatever - part of me.

    We spent a summer in Tehran before the revolution and while it was so beautifully welcoming and sensual, warm and colorful (bless the food but fuck the traffic!), there was also a sense of oppression, of that have-to-look-around and check yourself feeling. Not in the usual (common) sense, but in a you-might-be-seriously-fucked-with sense.

    Have mentioned before about having grown men at a construction site throwing stones at my physically-developed but eleven-year-old self. I will never forget it, their anger - such anger; how within whatever tenet can you reconcile your actions and conscience? - toward a girl wearing a tube top because it was hot.

    Fuck that, and fuck them. You don't do that. You don't act like that.

    And within my own family, I see prejudice that breaks my heart. Not necessarily an anti-US stance - the first generation came here in the late 40s with pretty much nothing and built businesses, families, communities, lives. But there is much close-mindedness in many veins. Traditions and lifestyles to be upheld, and attempts - from the older generation - to shame those who value choice and forging their / our own paths.

    All that said, I wouldn't be myself without all of that, good, bad or within the spectrum.

    Didn't intend to so ramble on! Just wanted to give my perspective.

    This is fascinating to hear about. Thanks for the insight, Hedonist.

    I'll be honest: the close-mindedness, the attachment to old-age traditions and values, the negative spin on choice and change - these are constants in a vast amount of different sects.

    It happens in Judaism (and I would assume many other religions): why do we have derogative terms for "non-Jews"? Why has it been deemed unacceptable by many Jewish communities to not advocate for blind acceptance of any Israeli actions?
    It happens in Canadian culture: why with a church/state division do we still call out to a god to keep our land glorious and free? Why is it still illegal to drag a dead horse down Yonge Street in Toronto on a Sunday?
    It happened amongst white supremacists: Slave owners certainly would've frowned on promoting the black liberation movement.

    Traditions, by virtue of what they are, represent older-time mentalities, which are (at least sometimes) not of proper 'today' mindset, omitting concepts such as equality, righteousness, and justice. Shame and guilt have always been present to help traditions maintain their places in peoples' lives.
    Are you really in your early/mid-20s? You have a wise - and openminded but realistic - perspective.

    Yes, same as you are - my family is Jewish and I've seen hypocrisy and double standards in both the sense of fervency and action. Actually from the younger generation too. Agreed it's among most if not all religions (hell, I do it myself at times).

    And Jason, this - And perhaps there is an element of their society that doesn't embrace Western culture, but I'm sure that the Iranian feminist, LGBT, and even lovers of dancing and music do.

    Absolutely.
    Thanks Hedonist, but I only developed my voice thanks to communities like this one with inspiring writers like yourself and many others, as well as a litany of fantastic teachers throughout my lifetime (both within and outside of the education system). I can only try my best to be like those fine folks who've inspired me. I'm also basically an old man at heart - I'm Benjamin Buttoning this life, so since I'm 25 technically, I think I'm going on 75 or so by now :)

    I agree about the younger generation of Jews - I'm reaching the age where my friends have mostly developed a position on political/socioeconomic spectrums, and there seems to be a correlation between the certainty with which they speak, and the religious background they possess. Even my friends with politically-outspoken parents seem to be less likely to be politically involved than their counterparts who do come from religion. I'm guilty of this too, though I went the opposite direction: the rhetoric on Judaism and Israel dissuaded me from blind acceptance of either.

    I also totally agree about Jason's comment. I wouldn't necessarily refer to America as the 'land of the free', but it is less oppressed and more accepting than many nations. I'd like to see the nations of the world equalized at that level, before we call for raising the bar across the board.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    BS44325 said:

    I don't even know what thread this goes under anymore but the Palestinian Authority is now asking for Saudi help in targeting Hamas which they see as being backed by Iran. This is the greater war that is underway and the west should be backing the PA in crushing Hamas and preventing further Iranian expansionism. Any deal needs to be realistic about Iranian ambitions in the region.

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/04/14/hamas-pa-could-be-next-pawns-in-saudi-iranian-proxy-war/

    (Fox News...so sorry...I know how it offends)

    Fox doesn't offend. Wrong word.

    Fox is simply corporate mouthpiece that influences many to do their work. Sickens better word.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    BS44325 said:

    Jason P said:

    And the theory of exceptionalism doesn't apply to Iran? A country that despises Western culture and influence and see themselves as superior?

    Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.

    So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?

    Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.

    No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.

    Nixon went to China, Reagan met with Gorbachev, Clinton opened relations with Vietnam and sent former Senator Mitchell to Ireland. All of these were much more preferable than "bombing", "going to war" or being isolationist. Difficult work ahead? Sure. Impossible? No. Going to war is easy and a sign of weakness and should be considered only as a last resort. You have to start somewhere and as john Lennon once said, "give peace a chance." Something I'm willing to try before embarking on another war of choice.

    And how do you describe John Bolton who wrote an op-ed published in the NYT calling for the bombing of Iran because, "it's the only thing they understand?" Or McCain singing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran? Or, well the Bush administration that invaded Iraq, killing 4000+ Americans and upwards of a million Iraqis? Girl Scouts? Hardly.

    And my guess on BS, he's heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks. Turn off the war drums and wait to see what happens around June 30th when the details of the framework agreement are supposed to be codified into a substantive agreement that both sides take back to their governments for approval.
    Ha! I'm heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks now? Yesterday I was a lobbyist/agent of Israel? The inability for some of you to hear an alternate opinion is staggering. Alternative music...good. Alternative opinion...bad.
    Some hear someone that is scared of the boogey man and falls for one sided argument while calling for war. Become a mercenary and take your butt and fight the Evildoers. Also send 30% of your income to me reimbursing my tax dollars spent on war as the US taxpayer is paying for this shit.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    BS44325 said:

    i_lov_it said:

    Well just watching the news and John Kerry said that this deal is to make the World safer.

    All while Iran secures missle components

    http://freebeacon.com/national-security/north-korea-transfers-missile-goods-to-iran-during-nuclear-talks/
    So would you if you were Iran.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    callen said:

    BS44325 said:

    Jason P said:

    And the theory of exceptionalism doesn't apply to Iran? A country that despises Western culture and influence and see themselves as superior?

    Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.

    So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?

    Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.

    No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.

    Nixon went to China, Reagan met with Gorbachev, Clinton opened relations with Vietnam and sent former Senator Mitchell to Ireland. All of these were much more preferable than "bombing", "going to war" or being isolationist. Difficult work ahead? Sure. Impossible? No. Going to war is easy and a sign of weakness and should be considered only as a last resort. You have to start somewhere and as john Lennon once said, "give peace a chance." Something I'm willing to try before embarking on another war of choice.

    And how do you describe John Bolton who wrote an op-ed published in the NYT calling for the bombing of Iran because, "it's the only thing they understand?" Or McCain singing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran? Or, well the Bush administration that invaded Iraq, killing 4000+ Americans and upwards of a million Iraqis? Girl Scouts? Hardly.

    And my guess on BS, he's heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks. Turn off the war drums and wait to see what happens around June 30th when the details of the framework agreement are supposed to be codified into a substantive agreement that both sides take back to their governments for approval.
    Ha! I'm heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks now? Yesterday I was a lobbyist/agent of Israel? The inability for some of you to hear an alternate opinion is staggering. Alternative music...good. Alternative opinion...bad.
    Some hear someone that is scared of the boogey man and falls for one sided argument while calling for war. Become a mercenary and take your butt and fight the Evildoers. Also send 30% of your income to me reimbursing my tax dollars spent on war as the US taxpayer is paying for this shit.
    I've been telling him to enlist or enlist his kids, but of course he hides behind his computer and the safety of his home IN Canada.
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,082
    callen said:

    BS44325 said:

    I don't even know what thread this goes under anymore but the Palestinian Authority is now asking for Saudi help in targeting Hamas which they see as being backed by Iran. This is the greater war that is underway and the west should be backing the PA in crushing Hamas and preventing further Iranian expansionism. Any deal needs to be realistic about Iranian ambitions in the region.

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/04/14/hamas-pa-could-be-next-pawns-in-saudi-iranian-proxy-war/

    (Fox News...so sorry...I know how it offends)

    Fox doesn't offend. Wrong word.

    Fox is simply corporate mouthpiece that influences many to do their work. Sickens better word.
    So Fox is now a corporate mouthpiece for the Palestinian Authority?
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,082
    callen said:

    BS44325 said:

    Jason P said:

    And the theory of exceptionalism doesn't apply to Iran? A country that despises Western culture and influence and see themselves as superior?

    Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.

    So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?

    Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.

    No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.

    Nixon went to China, Reagan met with Gorbachev, Clinton opened relations with Vietnam and sent former Senator Mitchell to Ireland. All of these were much more preferable than "bombing", "going to war" or being isolationist. Difficult work ahead? Sure. Impossible? No. Going to war is easy and a sign of weakness and should be considered only as a last resort. You have to start somewhere and as john Lennon once said, "give peace a chance." Something I'm willing to try before embarking on another war of choice.

    And how do you describe John Bolton who wrote an op-ed published in the NYT calling for the bombing of Iran because, "it's the only thing they understand?" Or McCain singing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran? Or, well the Bush administration that invaded Iraq, killing 4000+ Americans and upwards of a million Iraqis? Girl Scouts? Hardly.

    And my guess on BS, he's heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks. Turn off the war drums and wait to see what happens around June 30th when the details of the framework agreement are supposed to be codified into a substantive agreement that both sides take back to their governments for approval.
    Ha! I'm heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks now? Yesterday I was a lobbyist/agent of Israel? The inability for some of you to hear an alternate opinion is staggering. Alternative music...good. Alternative opinion...bad.
    Some hear someone that is scared of the boogey man and falls for one sided argument while calling for war. Become a mercenary and take your butt and fight the Evildoers. Also send 30% of your income to me reimbursing my tax dollars spent on war as the US taxpayer is paying for this shit.
    Your country invaded Iraq and then proceeded to fuck it up for the rest of the world. My country is there now doing our best with our limited resources to help the local forces clean up some of the mess you left behind. Whether or not you were for the war your country started it and should have the guts to see it through. As Colin Powell said "If you break it you buy it". Canada has troops in Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iraq and we're conducting bombing runs over Syria...these deployments are barely controversial up here. Maybe you should be thanking us for doing the jobs that Americans just won't do.
  • dignindignin Posts: 8,944
    BS44325 said:

    callen said:

    BS44325 said:

    Jason P said:

    And the theory of exceptionalism doesn't apply to Iran? A country that despises Western culture and influence and see themselves as superior?

    Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.

    So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?

    Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.

    No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.

    Nixon went to China, Reagan met with Gorbachev, Clinton opened relations with Vietnam and sent former Senator Mitchell to Ireland. All of these were much more preferable than "bombing", "going to war" or being isolationist. Difficult work ahead? Sure. Impossible? No. Going to war is easy and a sign of weakness and should be considered only as a last resort. You have to start somewhere and as john Lennon once said, "give peace a chance." Something I'm willing to try before embarking on another war of choice.

    And how do you describe John Bolton who wrote an op-ed published in the NYT calling for the bombing of Iran because, "it's the only thing they understand?" Or McCain singing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran? Or, well the Bush administration that invaded Iraq, killing 4000+ Americans and upwards of a million Iraqis? Girl Scouts? Hardly.

    And my guess on BS, he's heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks. Turn off the war drums and wait to see what happens around June 30th when the details of the framework agreement are supposed to be codified into a substantive agreement that both sides take back to their governments for approval.
    Ha! I'm heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks now? Yesterday I was a lobbyist/agent of Israel? The inability for some of you to hear an alternate opinion is staggering. Alternative music...good. Alternative opinion...bad.
    Some hear someone that is scared of the boogey man and falls for one sided argument while calling for war. Become a mercenary and take your butt and fight the Evildoers. Also send 30% of your income to me reimbursing my tax dollars spent on war as the US taxpayer is paying for this shit.
    Your country invaded Iraq and then proceeded to fuck it up for the rest of the world. My country is there now doing our best with our limited resources to help the local forces clean up some of the mess you left behind. Whether or not you were for the war your country started it and should have the guts to see it through. As Colin Powell said "If you break it you buy it". Canada has troops in Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iraq and we're conducting bombing runs over Syria...these deployments are barely controversial up here. Maybe you should be thanking us for doing the jobs that Americans just won't do.

    I'm willing to bet you wanted Canada to invade Iraq back in 2003. If claim you didn't, it would be entirely out of character.
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    BS44325 said:

    callen said:

    BS44325 said:

    Jason P said:

    And the theory of exceptionalism doesn't apply to Iran? A country that despises Western culture and influence and see themselves as superior?

    Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.

    So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?

    Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.

    No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.

    Nixon went to China, Reagan met with Gorbachev, Clinton opened relations with Vietnam and sent former Senator Mitchell to Ireland. All of these were much more preferable than "bombing", "going to war" or being isolationist. Difficult work ahead? Sure. Impossible? No. Going to war is easy and a sign of weakness and should be considered only as a last resort. You have to start somewhere and as john Lennon once said, "give peace a chance." Something I'm willing to try before embarking on another war of choice.

    And how do you describe John Bolton who wrote an op-ed published in the NYT calling for the bombing of Iran because, "it's the only thing they understand?" Or McCain singing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran? Or, well the Bush administration that invaded Iraq, killing 4000+ Americans and upwards of a million Iraqis? Girl Scouts? Hardly.

    And my guess on BS, he's heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks. Turn off the war drums and wait to see what happens around June 30th when the details of the framework agreement are supposed to be codified into a substantive agreement that both sides take back to their governments for approval.
    Ha! I'm heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks now? Yesterday I was a lobbyist/agent of Israel? The inability for some of you to hear an alternate opinion is staggering. Alternative music...good. Alternative opinion...bad.
    Some hear someone that is scared of the boogey man and falls for one sided argument while calling for war. Become a mercenary and take your butt and fight the Evildoers. Also send 30% of your income to me reimbursing my tax dollars spent on war as the US taxpayer is paying for this shit.
    Your country invaded Iraq and then proceeded to fuck it up for the rest of the world. My country is there now doing our best with our limited resources to help the local forces clean up some of the mess you left behind. Whether or not you were for the war your country started it and should have the guts to see it through. As Colin Powell said "If you break it you buy it". Canada has troops in Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iraq and we're conducting bombing runs over Syria...these deployments are barely controversial up here. Maybe you should be thanking us for doing the jobs that Americans just won't do.
    Is there a reason you're not enlisting? We've brought it up to you a few times, even offered to hook u up with a recruit I know. You're so GUNG-HO about war, mite as well volunteer your services. I'm sure there are a SHITLOAD of servicemen who'd be willing to let you take their place. So please pm me your info and I'll make sure the recruits get in touch with you or someone in your family willing to die for "your" bombing campaign. Don't be a pussy now.
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,082
    dignin said:

    BS44325 said:

    callen said:

    BS44325 said:

    Jason P said:

    And the theory of exceptionalism doesn't apply to Iran? A country that despises Western culture and influence and see themselves as superior?

    Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.

    So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?

    Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.

    No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.

    Nixon went to China, Reagan met with Gorbachev, Clinton opened relations with Vietnam and sent former Senator Mitchell to Ireland. All of these were much more preferable than "bombing", "going to war" or being isolationist. Difficult work ahead? Sure. Impossible? No. Going to war is easy and a sign of weakness and should be considered only as a last resort. You have to start somewhere and as john Lennon once said, "give peace a chance." Something I'm willing to try before embarking on another war of choice.

    And how do you describe John Bolton who wrote an op-ed published in the NYT calling for the bombing of Iran because, "it's the only thing they understand?" Or McCain singing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran? Or, well the Bush administration that invaded Iraq, killing 4000+ Americans and upwards of a million Iraqis? Girl Scouts? Hardly.

    And my guess on BS, he's heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks. Turn off the war drums and wait to see what happens around June 30th when the details of the framework agreement are supposed to be codified into a substantive agreement that both sides take back to their governments for approval.
    Ha! I'm heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks now? Yesterday I was a lobbyist/agent of Israel? The inability for some of you to hear an alternate opinion is staggering. Alternative music...good. Alternative opinion...bad.
    Some hear someone that is scared of the boogey man and falls for one sided argument while calling for war. Become a mercenary and take your butt and fight the Evildoers. Also send 30% of your income to me reimbursing my tax dollars spent on war as the US taxpayer is paying for this shit.
    Your country invaded Iraq and then proceeded to fuck it up for the rest of the world. My country is there now doing our best with our limited resources to help the local forces clean up some of the mess you left behind. Whether or not you were for the war your country started it and should have the guts to see it through. As Colin Powell said "If you break it you buy it". Canada has troops in Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iraq and we're conducting bombing runs over Syria...these deployments are barely controversial up here. Maybe you should be thanking us for doing the jobs that Americans just won't do.

    I'm willing to bet you wanted Canada to invade Iraq back in 2003. If claim you didn't, it would be entirely out of character.
    I did, so did our current Prime Minister, so did your current Democratic party front-runner.
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    BS44325 said:

    dignin said:

    BS44325 said:

    callen said:

    BS44325 said:

    Jason P said:

    And the theory of exceptionalism doesn't apply to Iran? A country that despises Western culture and influence and see themselves as superior?

    Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.

    So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?

    Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.

    No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.

    Nixon went to China, Reagan met with Gorbachev, Clinton opened relations with Vietnam and sent former Senator Mitchell to Ireland. All of these were much more preferable than "bombing", "going to war" or being isolationist. Difficult work ahead? Sure. Impossible? No. Going to war is easy and a sign of weakness and should be considered only as a last resort. You have to start somewhere and as john Lennon once said, "give peace a chance." Something I'm willing to try before embarking on another war of choice.

    And how do you describe John Bolton who wrote an op-ed published in the NYT calling for the bombing of Iran because, "it's the only thing they understand?" Or McCain singing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran? Or, well the Bush administration that invaded Iraq, killing 4000+ Americans and upwards of a million Iraqis? Girl Scouts? Hardly.

    And my guess on BS, he's heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks. Turn off the war drums and wait to see what happens around June 30th when the details of the framework agreement are supposed to be codified into a substantive agreement that both sides take back to their governments for approval.
    Ha! I'm heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks now? Yesterday I was a lobbyist/agent of Israel? The inability for some of you to hear an alternate opinion is staggering. Alternative music...good. Alternative opinion...bad.
    Some hear someone that is scared of the boogey man and falls for one sided argument while calling for war. Become a mercenary and take your butt and fight the Evildoers. Also send 30% of your income to me reimbursing my tax dollars spent on war as the US taxpayer is paying for this shit.
    Your country invaded Iraq and then proceeded to fuck it up for the rest of the world. My country is there now doing our best with our limited resources to help the local forces clean up some of the mess you left behind. Whether or not you were for the war your country started it and should have the guts to see it through. As Colin Powell said "If you break it you buy it". Canada has troops in Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iraq and we're conducting bombing runs over Syria...these deployments are barely controversial up here. Maybe you should be thanking us for doing the jobs that Americans just won't do.

    I'm willing to bet you wanted Canada to invade Iraq back in 2003. If claim you didn't, it would be entirely out of character.
    I did, so did our current Prime Minister, so did your current Democratic party front-runner.
    But many including me didn't and many including you didn't learn from it.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,082
    edited April 2015
    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    callen said:

    BS44325 said:

    Jason P said:

    And the theory of exceptionalism doesn't apply to Iran? A country that despises Western culture and influence and see themselves as superior?

    Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.

    So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?

    Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.

    No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.

    Nixon went to China, Reagan met with Gorbachev, Clinton opened relations with Vietnam and sent former Senator Mitchell to Ireland. All of these were much more preferable than "bombing", "going to war" or being isolationist. Difficult work ahead? Sure. Impossible? No. Going to war is easy and a sign of weakness and should be considered only as a last resort. You have to start somewhere and as john Lennon once said, "give peace a chance." Something I'm willing to try before embarking on another war of choice.

    And how do you describe John Bolton who wrote an op-ed published in the NYT calling for the bombing of Iran because, "it's the only thing they understand?" Or McCain singing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran? Or, well the Bush administration that invaded Iraq, killing 4000+ Americans and upwards of a million Iraqis? Girl Scouts? Hardly.

    And my guess on BS, he's heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks. Turn off the war drums and wait to see what happens around June 30th when the details of the framework agreement are supposed to be codified into a substantive agreement that both sides take back to their governments for approval.
    Ha! I'm heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks now? Yesterday I was a lobbyist/agent of Israel? The inability for some of you to hear an alternate opinion is staggering. Alternative music...good. Alternative opinion...bad.
    Some hear someone that is scared of the boogey man and falls for one sided argument while calling for war. Become a mercenary and take your butt and fight the Evildoers. Also send 30% of your income to me reimbursing my tax dollars spent on war as the US taxpayer is paying for this shit.
    Your country invaded Iraq and then proceeded to fuck it up for the rest of the world. My country is there now doing our best with our limited resources to help the local forces clean up some of the mess you left behind. Whether or not you were for the war your country started it and should have the guts to see it through. As Colin Powell said "If you break it you buy it". Canada has troops in Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iraq and we're conducting bombing runs over Syria...these deployments are barely controversial up here. Maybe you should be thanking us for doing the jobs that Americans just won't do.
    Is there a reason you're not enlisting? We've brought it up to you a few times, even offered to hook u up with a recruit I know. You're so GUNG-HO about war, mite as well volunteer your services. I'm sure there are a SHITLOAD of servicemen who'd be willing to let you take their place. So please pm me your info and I'll make sure the recruits get in touch with you or someone in your family willing to die for "your" bombing campaign. Don't be a pussy now.
    My answer is the same as before. I'm too old and the kids are too young. I look back with regret for not enlisting in my younger days but we can't change the past. Spent too much time smoking weed and bathing in the groupthink of the left. As far as the kids are concerned my oldest is about 6 years out until she can enlist. All three are constantly taught about the nobility of service but in the end they will be free to choose their own career path. We can guide our kids but ultimately it is up to them to decide how they wish to spend their lives.
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,082
    edited April 2015
    Now if you are all done attacking the messenger we can back to the news...

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/saudi-iran-rivalry-yemen-deepens-mideast-sectarianism-30368937?singlePage=true

    This shit is real whether I enlist or not. Everyday things get worse. Al qaeda just took over an airport, oil port and sea port in Yemen. Ramadi is falling. We will either be sucked in on our terms or on someone elses. We need to be proactive and not reactive. We as the west need to decide what our principles are and take action before it's too late.



    Edit - Had to add that Egyptian tv is now asking Israel to hit Iran. None of this will end well.
    Post edited by BS44325 on
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    edited April 2015
    BS44325 said:

    Now if you are all done attacking the messenger we can back to the news...

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/saudi-iran-rivalry-yemen-deepens-mideast-sectarianism-30368937?singlePage=true

    This shit is real whether I enlist or not. Everyday things get worse. Al qaeda just took over an airport, oil port and sea port in Yemen. Ramadi is falling. We will either be sucked in on our terms or on someone elses. We need to be proactive and not reactive. We as the west need to decide what our principles are and take action before it's too late.



    Edit - Had to add that Egyptian tv is now asking Israel to hit Iran. None of this will end well.

    Lol, a 12 second sound bite taken out of context? Why the fuck would Israel need to refuel to bomb Iran? This video you posted didn't clarify shit except that you have a hard on for dropping bombs on Muslim countries. IsrAel killed over 500 kids and that's ok. Iran has killed how many kids? Is that more or less then 500?

    Edit- I hope to god your kids enlist. Someone like you that writes checks with their mouth deserves to stay up at night wondering if their kids are safe walking the streets of Iran. Night after night
    Post edited by badbrains on
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,082
    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    Now if you are all done attacking the messenger we can back to the news...

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/saudi-iran-rivalry-yemen-deepens-mideast-sectarianism-30368937?singlePage=true

    This shit is real whether I enlist or not. Everyday things get worse. Al qaeda just took over an airport, oil port and sea port in Yemen. Ramadi is falling. We will either be sucked in on our terms or on someone elses. We need to be proactive and not reactive. We as the west need to decide what our principles are and take action before it's too late.



    Edit - Had to add that Egyptian tv is now asking Israel to hit Iran. None of this will end well.

    Lol, a 12 second sound bite taken out of context? Why the fuck would Israel need to refuel to bomb Iran? This video you posted didn't clarify shit except that you have a hard on for dropping bombs on Muslim countries. IsrAel killed over 500 kids and that's ok. Iran has killed how many kids? Is that more or less then 500?

    Edit- I hope to god your kids enlist. Someone like you that writes checks with their mouth deserves to stay up at night wondering if their kids are safe walking the streets of Iran. Night after night
    This is a muslim country having a hard on for dropping bombs on another muslim country.
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 18,801
    image
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,706
    BS44325 said:

    Jason P said:

    And the theory of exceptionalism doesn't apply to Iran? A country that despises Western culture and influence and see themselves as superior?

    Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.

    So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?

    Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.

    No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.

    Nixon went to China, Reagan met with Gorbachev, Clinton opened relations with Vietnam and sent former Senator Mitchell to Ireland. All of these were much more preferable than "bombing", "going to war" or being isolationist. Difficult work ahead? Sure. Impossible? No. Going to war is easy and a sign of weakness and should be considered only as a last resort. You have to start somewhere and as john Lennon once said, "give peace a chance." Something I'm willing to try before embarking on another war of choice.

    And how do you describe John Bolton who wrote an op-ed published in the NYT calling for the bombing of Iran because, "it's the only thing they understand?" Or McCain singing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran? Or, well the Bush administration that invaded Iraq, killing 4000+ Americans and upwards of a million Iraqis? Girl Scouts? Hardly.

    And my guess on BS, he's heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks. Turn off the war drums and wait to see what happens around June 30th when the details of the framework agreement are supposed to be codified into a substantive agreement that both sides take back to their governments for approval.
    Ha! I'm heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks now? Yesterday I was a lobbyist/agent of Israel? The inability for some of you to hear an alternate opinion is staggering. Alternative music...good. Alternative opinion...bad.
    Sorry my bad. You're heavily invested in Canadian oil sands perhaps? I mean all you have to do is look at who's beating the war drums and compare to who benefits, financially. Follow the money.
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,706
    BS44325 said:

    Jason P said:

    And the theory of exceptionalism doesn't apply to Iran? A country that despises Western culture and influence and see themselves as superior?

    Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.

    So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?

    Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.

    No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.

    Nixon went to China, Reagan met with Gorbachev, Clinton opened relations with Vietnam and sent former Senator Mitchell to Ireland. All of these were much more preferable than "bombing", "going to war" or being isolationist. Difficult work ahead? Sure. Impossible? No. Going to war is easy and a sign of weakness and should be considered only as a last resort. You have to start somewhere and as john Lennon once said, "give peace a chance." Something I'm willing to try before embarking on another war of choice.

    And how do you describe John Bolton who wrote an op-ed published in the NYT calling for the bombing of Iran because, "it's the only thing they understand?" Or McCain singing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran? Or, well the Bush administration that invaded Iraq, killing 4000+ Americans and upwards of a million Iraqis? Girl Scouts? Hardly.

    And my guess on BS, he's heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks. Turn off the war drums and wait to see what happens around June 30th when the details of the framework agreement are supposed to be codified into a substantive agreement that both sides take back to their governments for approval.
    Ha! I'm heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks now? Yesterday I was a lobbyist/agent of Israel? The inability for some of you to hear an alternate opinion is staggering. Alternative music...good. Alternative opinion...bad.
    I've read your posts and the links you provide. I don't have the inability to "hear" and alternate opinion. What I do have is the ability to recognize that the alternative opinion you espouse is wrong and I don't agree with it. Sorry if that offends you.
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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,706
    BS44325 said:

    i_lov_it said:

    Well just watching the news and John Kerry said that this deal is to make the World safer.

    All while Iran secures missle components

    http://freebeacon.com/national-security/north-korea-transfers-missile-goods-to-iran-during-nuclear-talks/
    The last time I checked, the US was more than 620 miles from Iran. How is this a threat to us? The distance between Iran and Israel is approximately 1,111 miles. Iran and Saudi Arabia, approximately 790 miles. Iran and Egypt, approximately 1,426 miles. Iran and Libya, 2,227 miles. Also, is Iran a signatory to the Missile Technology Control Regime? One of 34 "voluntary" signatories?
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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,706
    BS44325 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    BS44325 said:

    i_lov_it said:

    Well just watching the news and John Kerry said that this deal is to make the World safer.

    All while Iran secures missle components

    http://freebeacon.com/national-security/north-korea-transfers-missile-goods-to-iran-during-nuclear-talks/
    Umm, reports are that russia will sell sell missle tech to Iran
    Yup. Russia as well. They delayed that sale as part of the "reset" but apparently the reset is over.
    And why shouldn't Russia sell military goods to Iran? The SA-300 is a surface to air missile system utilized for defensive purposes. The US is the world's largest arms supplier. Some would argue part of the problem of why there's conflict. Iran doesn't have the right to defend itself? Russia doesn't have the right to sell arms to buyers willing to pay? The Russians sold a more sophisticated version of the missile technology, the SA-400, to China and China now produces them domestically. Should we bomb China? They have nuclear weapons. Why not?
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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,706
    BS44325 said:

    callen said:

    BS44325 said:

    Jason P said:

    And the theory of exceptionalism doesn't apply to Iran? A country that despises Western culture and influence and see themselves as superior?

    Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.

    So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?

    Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.

    No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.

    Nixon went to China, Reagan met with Gorbachev, Clinton opened relations with Vietnam and sent former Senator Mitchell to Ireland. All of these were much more preferable than "bombing", "going to war" or being isolationist. Difficult work ahead? Sure. Impossible? No. Going to war is easy and a sign of weakness and should be considered only as a last resort. You have to start somewhere and as john Lennon once said, "give peace a chance." Something I'm willing to try before embarking on another war of choice.

    And how do you describe John Bolton who wrote an op-ed published in the NYT calling for the bombing of Iran because, "it's the only thing they understand?" Or McCain singing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran? Or, well the Bush administration that invaded Iraq, killing 4000+ Americans and upwards of a million Iraqis? Girl Scouts? Hardly.

    And my guess on BS, he's heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks. Turn off the war drums and wait to see what happens around June 30th when the details of the framework agreement are supposed to be codified into a substantive agreement that both sides take back to their governments for approval.
    Ha! I'm heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks now? Yesterday I was a lobbyist/agent of Israel? The inability for some of you to hear an alternate opinion is staggering. Alternative music...good. Alternative opinion...bad.
    Some hear someone that is scared of the boogey man and falls for one sided argument while calling for war. Become a mercenary and take your butt and fight the Evildoers. Also send 30% of your income to me reimbursing my tax dollars spent on war as the US taxpayer is paying for this shit.
    Your country invaded Iraq and then proceeded to fuck it up for the rest of the world. My country is there now doing our best with our limited resources to help the local forces clean up some of the mess you left behind. Whether or not you were for the war your country started it and should have the guts to see it through. As Colin Powell said "If you break it you buy it". Canada has troops in Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iraq and we're conducting bombing runs over Syria...these deployments are barely controversial up here. Maybe you should be thanking us for doing the jobs that Americans just won't do.
    What does this have to do with the topic of this thread, Iran Deal? So since the US trashed Iraq, the living room, we need to go on and trash the dining room. kitchen, both bathrooms and all four bedrooms? Why stop there? In other words, the whole friggin neighborhood?
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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,706
    BS44325 said:

    dignin said:

    BS44325 said:

    callen said:

    BS44325 said:

    Jason P said:

    And the theory of exceptionalism doesn't apply to Iran? A country that despises Western culture and influence and see themselves as superior?

    Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.

    So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?

    Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.

    No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.

    Nixon went to China, Reagan met with Gorbachev, Clinton opened relations with Vietnam and sent former Senator Mitchell to Ireland. All of these were much more preferable than "bombing", "going to war" or being isolationist. Difficult work ahead? Sure. Impossible? No. Going to war is easy and a sign of weakness and should be considered only as a last resort. You have to start somewhere and as john Lennon once said, "give peace a chance." Something I'm willing to try before embarking on another war of choice.

    And how do you describe John Bolton who wrote an op-ed published in the NYT calling for the bombing of Iran because, "it's the only thing they understand?" Or McCain singing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran? Or, well the Bush administration that invaded Iraq, killing 4000+ Americans and upwards of a million Iraqis? Girl Scouts? Hardly.

    And my guess on BS, he's heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks. Turn off the war drums and wait to see what happens around June 30th when the details of the framework agreement are supposed to be codified into a substantive agreement that both sides take back to their governments for approval.
    Ha! I'm heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks now? Yesterday I was a lobbyist/agent of Israel? The inability for some of you to hear an alternate opinion is staggering. Alternative music...good. Alternative opinion...bad.
    Some hear someone that is scared of the boogey man and falls for one sided argument while calling for war. Become a mercenary and take your butt and fight the Evildoers. Also send 30% of your income to me reimbursing my tax dollars spent on war as the US taxpayer is paying for this shit.
    Your country invaded Iraq and then proceeded to fuck it up for the rest of the world. My country is there now doing our best with our limited resources to help the local forces clean up some of the mess you left behind. Whether or not you were for the war your country started it and should have the guts to see it through. As Colin Powell said "If you break it you buy it". Canada has troops in Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iraq and we're conducting bombing runs over Syria...these deployments are barely controversial up here. Maybe you should be thanking us for doing the jobs that Americans just won't do.

    I'm willing to bet you wanted Canada to invade Iraq back in 2003. If claim you didn't, it would be entirely out of character.
    I did, so did our current Prime Minister, so did your current Democratic party front-runner.
    Except Hillary Clinton publically admitted that her vote authorizing the invasion was a mistake and that if she could do it over again, knowing what she knows now, she wouldn't have voted the way she did. As opposed to GWB, who in the waning days of his Administration, when asked if there were any decisions he regretted or anything he would do differently, respond with a flat no. And with a deer in the headlights look on his face, so exact in his certitude that he did everything right while president. I think he just might be a sociopath. No empathy. Always certain. Fucking scary.
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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,706
    Jason P said:


    No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.

    I agree that the clerics are discussing the negotiations are doing this because the sanctions are doing exactly as intended and are empowering the younger generation to put pressure on them. If Obama cuts a deal, they are fucked and the clerics retain power. They get to keep their nuclear program and resume their oppression. And Obama gets to look like a humanitarian.

    Ironic, don't ya think?

    I've never been to Iran, have you? I don't claim to be an expert. If Iran had freedom of press, I may be able to determine a more accurate picture of their society, but they don't, so I can't.

    And perhaps there is an element of their society that doesn't embrace Western culture, but I'm sure that the Iranian feminist, LGBT, and even lovers of dancing and music do.

    Also, I've railed about this within the American political landscape for years. 10 year plans are complete bullshit. Every politician, no matter their affiliation, loves the the ten year promise. It's because their is no accountability in a 10 year plan. It gives them 10 years to make an excuse in case the rare event that someone remembers what they promised 10 years ago.
    No, I don't think its ironic at all. Obama is attempting to develop mutual trust between Iran and the P5+1. Some want to lay all the responsibility on the US but we're not negotiating this alone. Our most steadfast European allies and Russia all have skin in the game. Obama has deftly defined this issue as a "world" problem and not just a US problem. To dismiss this aspect of these negotiations is to say to our most loyal and steadfast allies that they don't matter, screw you. A ten year plan to develop mutual trust and negate risk and offer reward is sound policy. Even Reagan said, "trust but verify." Again, you have to start somewhere and to start with threats of military action is a sign of weakness and a lack of leadership. All Iran has to do, is to look at Iraq as the example. Saddam Hussein basically complied with the UN resolutions. Mobile biological labs? Bullshit? Chemical weapons? Bullshit except for the antiquated artillery shells from the 80's, supplied by the US by the way. Yellow cake from Nigeria? Bullshit. Involvement in 9/11? Bullshit. And yet, the Neocons, who had a hard on for war with Iraq, began, planning, and selling the invasion, even before Bush was the candidate. How do you think the leadership of Iran views that? Why should the Iranians trust us?

    Read up on Iran's government. Its a theocracy with the Supreme Leader elected by anywhere from 66 to 88 umans or religious leaders with a democratically (I use the term "democratically" loosely) elected unicameral legislature representing the people. The Supreme Leader has final say. President Imadinnerjacket was a nut job and thought his claim to fame was to be full of bluster and sword rattling. Except the Iranian people are sick of this. Henceforth, we have a reasonable President having been elected. Someone who wants a better future for his people. Obama extending the olive branch has opened the door. And it is a door worth looking to pass through. Is it perfect? No. Is it worth a shot? Absolutely. Afterall, we're not surrendering our nuclear weapons or taking eventual military action, if it comes to that, off the table. This idea that Iran will willy-nilly nuke the world as a death cult is the same as thinking that the End of Days folks and their elected representatives wish for a world ending nuclear war so the sweet baby Jesus can return and take the righteous ones home (sorry doesn't include me).

    Will Iran ever be a western style democracy? I don't think so. But so what? Does everyone have to be like us? Three major religions in the world and so many others, should they all bow to our Christianity? We still don't accept LGBT rights. Look at the marriage debate. See Matthew Shepard. Look to California and the ballot initiative to execute gays. Hell, look at the amount of money raised for that stupid cake shop. No, we don't currently execute gays as a matter of principle but there's a segment of our population who thinks we should, as well as some of their elected representatives who privately think the same. All the while the Catholic church gets a pass for buggering children. Please.

    10 years is nothing in the continuum of time. How long were the Paris Peace Accords? SALT I? SALT II? Negotiations take time. And its worth it. This idea that everything should be settled immediately? The instant gratification generation. Settle it, move on. Ten years allows for this administration to set the ground work, and successive administrations to determine whether its worth continuing, changing, or resulting in war. And what the Neocons won't tell you, is that that was the genius of the founding fathers in giving primary responsibility of treaties to the executive branch with senate approval, the senate being more stable and deliberative of the two bodies (again,, I use the terms stable and deliberative loosely). And the senate, with 1/3 up for re-election every 2 years, allows for accountability on their stamp of approval for whatever treaty is passed. If they voted against and it works, they pay a price. And conversely, if they voted for and it fails, they pay a price. Personally, fuck Cotton and the republicans for their bullshit of trying to negotiate the terms of the agreement. They have no place in the negotiations. So much for that beloved constitution.

    Continued next post
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    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,706
    Have I ever been to Iran? No. But my step mother was there recently, and she dressed conservatively and wore a head scarf. sorry Hedonist, and her and my father, when he was alive, traveled extensively through the middle east, visiting Yemen, Egypt, Israel and Sudan on multiple occasions. I also have a step uncle who has spent all of his post graduate years in the "third world" much of it in areas heavily influenced by the middle east and with large muslim populations. Does this make me an expert? No. Do I know people from Iran? Yes. Do I read a lot of books on the middle east? Yes. My point? I keep an open mind and my education trained me to question and seek answers. Multiple sources, different mediums. Personal experience. Conversation. Absorb, digest, know past history and come to a conclusion. Don't jump or rush to conclusions because at the end of the day, the vast majority of people on this planet want the same, peace and for their children to do better than they did.

    Jason, I appreciate your response and questions. Hence, my very long winded response. But this is something I care deeply about if only to avoid yet another war. If you'd like to read up on the Middle East, the current conflict or reasons as to why we're where we're at, I'd be happy to send you some book titles. But for now, I'll leave you with this:

    When the US developed the Hydrogen bomb, “Truman’s decision to develop a hydrogen bomb had great symbolic importance. It sent a message to the Soviet leadership-and to the American people. In a cold war without bloodshed or battlefields, the perception of strength mattered as much as the reality. A classified Pentagon report later stressed the central role that “psychological considerations” played in nuclear deterrence. “Weapons systems in themselves tell only part of the necessary story,” the report argued. The success of America’s defense plans relied on an effective “information program” aimed at the public:

    What deters is not the capabilities and intentions we have, but the capabilities and intentions the enemy thinks we have. The central objective of a deterrent weapons system is, thus, psychological. The mission is persuasion.”

    Command and Control, Nuclear Weapons, the Damascus Accident, and the Illusion of Safety, by Eric Schlosser, pages 124-125.

    And this from page 124 of the same book:

    “Albert Einstein read a prepared statement about the hydrogen bomb on national television. He criticized the militarization of American society, the intimidation of anyone who opposed it, the demands for loyalty and secrecy, the “hysterical character” of the nuclear arms race, and the “disastrous illusion” that this new weapon would somehow make America safer. “Every step appears as the unavoidable consequence of the preceding one.” Einstein said, “In the end, there beckons more and more clearly general annihilation.”

    Interchange Israel, Iran and the US in anyway you want. it means the same thing.

    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

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