I'm glad there are still voices for peace here. Last year I posted something about being for peace and was practically crucified for my comments. I don't even remember what it was all about but it was a long thread on The Porch (of all places).
It's true that, at least since the advent of agriculture, war has been common. But it is possible to avoid war. At one point in their history Japan war war-free for something like 700 years. And as unlikely as it may seem for the world to be at peace, why would we not want to promote the idea? If we worked harder to share our cultures (like Henry Rollins has done downloading western music onto hard drives in remote corners of the world) and bring some of their music and art and literature back home we might find good reason to be at peace.
I'm grateful to those of you here who promote peace. Thank you!
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
A David Brooks opinion piece is not indicative of "where the deal stands right now."
It is indicative of where the politics of this is moving. Brooks is/was Obama's biggest supporter on the mainstream media "conservative" side. The Corker bill will move forward probably with a likely veto-proof bipartisan majority (see response of Tim Kaine for proof). The "deal" which appears to be a mirage is probably dead. The question now will be how does Obama respond? He could blame Iran for the failure and drop the hammer or he can blame Israel and the 47 "treasonous" senators. I know which way this message board will go but let's see what the president does.
A message board full of people who want NO MORE WARS and one clown advocating for and spreading the war machine. It's fucken sickening how anyone would want another war. You are one twisted human. Drooling at the prospect of another fucken war to benefit who? Exactly.
Edit-you want a fucken war, then stop being a fucken coward and enlist. If you're to old then have your son/daughter enlist and have your family well represented there.
Four F-words in one post. Good work.
Lucky it was only 4. Anyone who advocates for war is fucken crazy. There's one more.
If we stay on the path we are on war will be inevitable. If and when it begins I suggest we win it.
Only nobody really wins, right?
Correct
So that begs the question- why do we keep doing engaging in war?
Because history hasn't ended. Not everyone amongst us are rational actors. I want the world you want but unfortunately evil does exist. "Death to America" cannot be written off as a meaningless slogan for a domestic audience. It is the will of some. We can't wish it away.
This coming from a guy living in CANADA. Let America decide what to do. Why you so gung-ho for fucken war? And you have a funny fucken way of determining who's evil and who's the good guys.
Yes, BS, evil does exist, we can´t wish it away, but by posting the way you do, in my opinion, you fuel the existing evil, instead of looking for a solution. War has never, ever had any winners, it only brings pain and grief on both sides... By fueling up the fear and hatred you are part of the problem in my opinion, not part of the solution. All humans have a lot in common, if we start looking for these commons instead of the differences, the world can be a peaceful place maybe, one day...
This sounds nice but not everyone wants to find common ground with us. Pointing this out is not to "fuel fear and hatred". I apologize if this makes you uncomfortable.
with the guiding principle of American Exceptionalism we seem to operate from, where are WE seeking to find common ground with others?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
First of all I am no American but European, and therefor I do not operate from the principle of American Exceptionalism. Second of all I think these principle of American Exceptionalism, is one of the main problems, Western societies think so highly of themselves, the right way to see the world is our way... But so does a part of the Muslim culture, which rage against the western world, so there´s one example of a common ground for you. To be more specific, this isn´t an exclusive American problem, it´s a western problem or maybe even an universal problem.... But by raging against one another the only gain will be war and grief. If we don´t want it to happen we have to start a movement based on common grounds and companionship, instead of hatred and dividing.
Post edited by Aafke on
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
First of all I am no American but European, and therefor I do not operate from the principle of American Exceptionalism. Second of all I think these principle of American Exceptionalism, is one of the mean problems, Western societies think so highly of themselves, the right way to see the world is our way... But so does a part of the Muslim culture, which rage against the western world, so there´s one example of a common ground for you. To be more specific, this isn´t an exclusive American problem, it´s a western problem or maybe even an universal problem.... But by raging against one another the only gain will be war and grief. If we don´t want it to happen we have to start a movement based on common grounds and companionship, instead of hatred and dividing.
was directed at our canadian friend. I find you to be openminded and willing to hear or consider other viewpoints. I appreciate your contributions to the threads you participate in.
To my point though, that IS an issue , this idea of American Exceptionalism. Height of ego for a country , no? Seems to preclude any kind of meeting of the minds.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
First of all I am no American but European, and therefor I do not operate from the principle of American Exceptionalism. Second of all I think these principle of American Exceptionalism, is one of the mean problems, Western societies think so highly of themselves, the right way to see the world is our way... But so does a part of the Muslim culture, which rage against the western world, so there´s one example of a common ground for you. To be more specific, this isn´t an exclusive American problem, it´s a western problem or maybe even an universal problem.... But by raging against one another the only gain will be war and grief. If we don´t want it to happen we have to start a movement based on common grounds and companionship, instead of hatred and dividing.
was directed at our canadian friend. I find you to be openminded and willing to hear or consider other viewpoints. I appreciate your contributions to the threads you participate in.
To my point though, that IS an issue , this idea of American Exceptionalism. Height of ego for a country , no? Seems to preclude any kind of meeting of the minds.
I agree: several months ago we all had a big discussion about the dangers of nationalist pride, and came to the same conclusion then, before it was (intentionally or not) derailed.
The problem as I see it is that chopping down divisive elements is the wrong way to go about it: we need to promote universal concern because of our differences, not in spite of them. Abolish religion and we'll fall back on nationalism. Abolish nationalism and we'll fall back on race. Abolish race and we'll fall back on class. Abolish class and we'll find something new. On the other hand, pivoting our concern from our division of choice to 'everyone' and the new mentality becomes a universal and easy to comprehend concept.
Post edited by benjs on
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
First of all I am no American but European, and therefor I do not operate from the principle of American Exceptionalism. Second of all I think these principle of American Exceptionalism, is one of the mean problems, Western societies think so highly of themselves, the right way to see the world is our way... But so does a part of the Muslim culture, which rage against the western world, so there´s one example of a common ground for you. To be more specific, this isn´t an exclusive American problem, it´s a western problem or maybe even an universal problem.... But by raging against one another the only gain will be war and grief. If we don´t want it to happen we have to start a movement based on common grounds and companionship, instead of hatred and dividing.
was directed at our canadian friend. I find you to be openminded and willing to hear or consider other viewpoints. I appreciate your contributions to the threads you participate in.
To my point though, that IS an issue , this idea of American Exceptionalism. Height of ego for a country , no? Seems to preclude any kind of meeting of the minds.
Yes, I do believe you certainly have a point there... Unfortunately this attitude is catching on in Europe, or better said catching on again, because I´m afraid it started in Europe. The colonization of the rest of the world are well documented example for the ludicrous arrogant behavior of the European past...
But also in the present tense this arrogance is once again arising... For example in my country we do have one very anti Muslim politician, who also does play the blame game very, very well, (everything which goes wrong in our country, is entirely the fault of the immigrated Muslims, certainly not of the Europeans). Unfortunately he wins on support every election and sees the US as his great example. I don´t think I have to explain around here I will never, ever vote for this guy. But it worries me so many do. By blaming the Muslims he does single out a black sheep, and does divide our society, even further. Unfortunately this kind of messages win election because, they are fueling up the hatred and fear for a minority.
With this kind of rhetorical argumentation about 80 years ago some Austrian won elections in German, and murdered more than 6 million Jews. But the alienation of the Jews in these countries started way before he even was born. It started 60 years before the start of World War Two. When the Jews, became the elite in Austria and the locals, felt threaten to lose their dominant place in society.
History now a day tries to make Hitler into a devil, surely he wasn´t the nicest person to have around, but he was only human, he was a product of his hate fueled society, and only did take it to the next level. In my opinion this can happen once again, and looking at the growing hate and fear of Muslims, this is happening right now, all over again.
Step by step we are building up to a next disaster founded on difference of faith, as an excuse, to slaughter of entire groups of human beings. In my opinion the only way to prevent this is by talking to people, look for the commons, instead of the differences. Keep seeing them as persons instead of enemies! And to speak out to those who can´t do this anymore.
By this I do not mean that everyone has to be the same, or we must chop off divisive elements, because there will always be differences between people. That makes the world just a more adventures place to live in. But with all our differences, we have to live together on this planet, so lets try to respect each other, and stop trying to convince one another with force to accept our own world view. All our views on the world are different, but one is not better than the other, they are just different. Despite all our differences we do also have a lot in common. let these differences not divide us, but unit us...
Post edited by Aafke on
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
Ahh, the American Enterprise Institute, scaring Americans and conservatives the world over since 1938. A couple issues with the article, namely Hugo Chavez is, well, dead, Syria and Assad are a mess making it doubtful that Assad is sending resources to Hezbollah in the Muslim triangle of Paraguay, Argentina and Brazil, Argentina's economy is collapsing, making them less likely to support or turn a blind eye towards Iran, Mexico has stepped up its war against the narco-traffickers, killing or capturing the heads of the three largest cartels and seeing that we know what we do about what's going on down South of the border, don't you think we're doing something about it? Oh wait, that's right, the Muslim, socialist, Kenyan, Manchurian candidate isn't doing a thing because he hates America or should I say doesn't love it like most so he's letting them win so the world Caliphate can well, rule the world.
And the AEI is a source I should trust because they got Iraq right. Sure, okay.
Ahh, the American Enterprise Institute, scaring Americans and conservatives the world over since 1938. A couple issues with the article, namely Hugo Chavez is, well, dead, Syria and Assad are a mess making it doubtful that Assad is sending resources to Hezbollah in the Muslim triangle of Paraguay, Argentina and Brazil, Argentina's economy is collapsing, making them less likely to support or turn a blind eye towards Iran, Mexico has stepped up its war against the narco-traffickers, killing or capturing the heads of the three largest cartels and seeing that we know what we do about what's going on down South of the border, don't you think we're doing something about it? Oh wait, that's right, the Muslim, socialist, Kenyan, Manchurian candidate isn't doing a thing because he hates America or should I say doesn't love it like most so he's letting them win so the world Caliphate can well, rule the world.
And the AEI is a source I should trust because they got Iraq right. Sure, okay.
Stop it H2M, don't you know BS knows everything? He's always reminding us.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
First of all I am no American but European, and therefor I do not operate from the principle of American Exceptionalism. Second of all I think these principle of American Exceptionalism, is one of the main problems, Western societies think so highly of themselves, the right way to see the world is our way... But so does a part of the Muslim culture, which rage against the western world, so there´s one example of a common ground for you. To be more specific, this isn´t an exclusive American problem, it´s a western problem or maybe even an universal problem.... But by raging against one another the only gain will be war and grief. If we don´t want it to happen we have to start a movement based on common grounds and companionship, instead of hatred and dividing.
Well of course putting an end to war and all the pointless killing would be good but yet for some stupid reason we have it...who knows what there motives may be to keep the war machine going and to distabalise certain areas but I'm assuming it's the main and obvious one which is money which of course.is not limited to just that.
A David Brooks opinion piece is not indicative of "where the deal stands right now."
It is indicative of where the politics of this is moving. Brooks is/was Obama's biggest supporter on the mainstream media "conservative" side. The Corker bill will move forward probably with a likely veto-proof bipartisan majority (see response of Tim Kaine for proof). The "deal" which appears to be a mirage is probably dead. The question now will be how does Obama respond? He could blame Iran for the failure and drop the hammer or he can blame Israel and the 47 "treasonous" senators. I know which way this message board will go but let's see what the president does.
Corker said Monday evening there is broad agreement on the basic process set out in the bill: the establishment of a review period during which congressionally imposed sanctions would remain in place, the ability of Congress to approve or disapprove the deal and, if the deal is approved, the creation of an ongoing congressional role in overseeing Iranian compliance. But some provisions have brought sharp opposition from President Obama and, more importantly, Senate Democrats who are otherwise inclined to support congressional review.
And the theory of exceptionalism doesn't apply to Iran? A country that despises Western culture and influence and see themselves as superior?
Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.
So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?
Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.
It's the same shit both ways Jay and you know it. They've been hearing for over 30 years we need to bomb Iran. Knowing their history and how we've fucked with it over the years, what would you expect them to say? God bless America?
I don't even know what thread this goes under anymore but the Palestinian Authority is now asking for Saudi help in targeting Hamas which they see as being backed by Iran. This is the greater war that is underway and the west should be backing the PA in crushing Hamas and preventing further Iranian expansionism. Any deal needs to be realistic about Iranian ambitions in the region.
Ah, Hezbollah won't help Hamas at all and that's straight crap. More fear and lies. Hezbollah has always said they won't interfere with Hamas and Israel. I would bet Israel would love for Hezbollah to join Hamas so they can fight them both at the same time, only Hezbollah knows that and only reacts when Israel pokes at them. That's simple semantics when it comes to that shit. Not hard to see or understand.
And the theory of exceptionalism doesn't apply to Iran? A country that despises Western culture and influence and see themselves as superior?
Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.
So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?
Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.
No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.
Nixon went to China, Reagan met with Gorbachev, Clinton opened relations with Vietnam and sent former Senator Mitchell to Ireland. All of these were much more preferable than "bombing", "going to war" or being isolationist. Difficult work ahead? Sure. Impossible? No. Going to war is easy and a sign of weakness and should be considered only as a last resort. You have to start somewhere and as john Lennon once said, "give peace a chance." Something I'm willing to try before embarking on another war of choice.
And how do you describe John Bolton who wrote an op-ed published in the NYT calling for the bombing of Iran because, "it's the only thing they understand?" Or McCain singing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran? Or, well the Bush administration that invaded Iraq, killing 4000+ Americans and upwards of a million Iraqis? Girl Scouts? Hardly.
And my guess on BS, he's heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks. Turn off the war drums and wait to see what happens around June 30th when the details of the framework agreement are supposed to be codified into a substantive agreement that both sides take back to their governments for approval.
And the theory of exceptionalism doesn't apply to Iran? A country that despises Western culture and influence and see themselves as superior?
Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.
So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?
Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.
No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.
Nixon went to China, Reagan met with Gorbachev, Clinton opened relations with Vietnam and sent former Senator Mitchell to Ireland. All of these were much more preferable than "bombing", "going to war" or being isolationist. Difficult work ahead? Sure. Impossible? No. Going to war is easy and a sign of weakness and should be considered only as a last resort. You have to start somewhere and as john Lennon once said, "give peace a chance." Something I'm willing to try before embarking on another war of choice.
And how do you describe John Bolton who wrote an op-ed published in the NYT calling for the bombing of Iran because, "it's the only thing they understand?" Or McCain singing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran? Or, well the Bush administration that invaded Iraq, killing 4000+ Americans and upwards of a million Iraqis? Girl Scouts? Hardly.
And my guess on BS, he's heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks. Turn off the war drums and wait to see what happens around June 30th when the details of the framework agreement are supposed to be codified into a substantive agreement that both sides take back to their governments for approval.
My mother is Persian, and given that all but less than a handful of my German father's relatives lived through the Holocaust, my mom's side - huge family between here in LA, in NY and in London - and that Iranian culture - have been a constant.
Definitely for better and worse. But whatever - part of me.
We spent a summer in Tehran before the revolution and while it was so beautifully welcoming and sensual, warm and colorful (bless the food but fuck the traffic!), there was also a sense of oppression, of that have-to-look-around and check yourself feeling. Not in the usual (common) sense, but in a you-might-be-seriously-fucked-with sense.
Have mentioned before about having grown men at a construction site throwing stones at my physically-developed but eleven-year-old self. I will never forget it, their anger - such anger; how within whatever tenet can you reconcile your actions and conscience? - toward a girl wearing a tube top because it was hot.
Fuck that, and fuck them. You don't do that. You don't act like that.
And within my own family, I see prejudice that breaks my heart. Not necessarily an anti-US stance - the first generation came here in the late 40s with pretty much nothing and built businesses, families, communities, lives. But there is much close-mindedness in many veins. Traditions and lifestyles to be upheld, and attempts - from the older generation - to shame those who value choice and forging their / our own paths.
All that said, I wouldn't be myself without all of that, good, bad or within the spectrum.
Didn't intend to so ramble on! Just wanted to give my perspective.
My mother is Persian, and given that all but less than a handful of my German father's relatives lived through the Holocaust, my mom's side - huge family between here in LA, in NY and in London - and that Iranian culture - have been a constant.
Definitely for better and worse. But whatever - part of me.
We spent a summer in Tehran before the revolution and while it was so beautifully welcoming and sensual, warm and colorful (bless the food but fuck the traffic!), there was also a sense of oppression, of that have-to-look-around and check yourself feeling. Not in the usual (common) sense, but in a you-might-be-seriously-fucked-with sense.
Have mentioned before about having grown men at a construction site throwing stones at my physically-developed but eleven-year-old self. I will never forget it, their anger - such anger; how within whatever tenet can you reconcile your actions and conscience? - toward a girl wearing a tube top because it was hot.
Fuck that, and fuck them. You don't do that. You don't act like that.
And within my own family, I see prejudice that breaks my heart. Not necessarily an anti-US stance - the first generation came here in the late 40s with pretty much nothing and built businesses, families, communities, lives. But there is much close-mindedness in many veins. Traditions and lifestyles to be upheld, and attempts - from the older generation - to shame those who value choice and forging their / our own paths.
All that said, I wouldn't be myself without all of that, good, bad or within the spectrum.
Didn't intend to so ramble on! Just wanted to give my perspective.
Thanks for sharing hedonist. Nice to get some perspective from someone with ties to Iran.
And the theory of exceptionalism doesn't apply to Iran? A country that despises Western culture and influence and see themselves as superior?
Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.
So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?
Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.
No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.
Nixon went to China, Reagan met with Gorbachev, Clinton opened relations with Vietnam and sent former Senator Mitchell to Ireland. All of these were much more preferable than "bombing", "going to war" or being isolationist. Difficult work ahead? Sure. Impossible? No. Going to war is easy and a sign of weakness and should be considered only as a last resort. You have to start somewhere and as john Lennon once said, "give peace a chance." Something I'm willing to try before embarking on another war of choice.
And how do you describe John Bolton who wrote an op-ed published in the NYT calling for the bombing of Iran because, "it's the only thing they understand?" Or McCain singing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran? Or, well the Bush administration that invaded Iraq, killing 4000+ Americans and upwards of a million Iraqis? Girl Scouts? Hardly.
And my guess on BS, he's heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks. Turn off the war drums and wait to see what happens around June 30th when the details of the framework agreement are supposed to be codified into a substantive agreement that both sides take back to their governments for approval.
It's not apples to apples when the make the "we both have some conservatives" argument. Iran has a "Supreme Leader" who is the highest ranking political and religious person in their society. For those sympathetic to Iran, think of it as if Obama had to answer to Ted Cruz's older brother, Blake Cruz.
Name me a list of all the clerical leaders in Iran that are publicly calling out for modernization.
We western people have to find small examples and then shine the spotlight to highlight what horrible people we are. McCain, for example, may say aggressive things towards Iran, but we aren't congregating outside his house on a weekly basis burning Iranian flags.
The fact that we brow-beat ourselves is goofy, but good, I guess. We have the freedom to think and express such thoughts.
And the theory of exceptionalism doesn't apply to Iran? A country that despises Western culture and influence and see themselves as superior?
Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.
So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?
Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.
No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.
Nixon went to China, Reagan met with Gorbachev, Clinton opened relations with Vietnam and sent former Senator Mitchell to Ireland. All of these were much more preferable than "bombing", "going to war" or being isolationist. Difficult work ahead? Sure. Impossible? No. Going to war is easy and a sign of weakness and should be considered only as a last resort. You have to start somewhere and as john Lennon once said, "give peace a chance." Something I'm willing to try before embarking on another war of choice.
And how do you describe John Bolton who wrote an op-ed published in the NYT calling for the bombing of Iran because, "it's the only thing they understand?" Or McCain singing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran? Or, well the Bush administration that invaded Iraq, killing 4000+ Americans and upwards of a million Iraqis? Girl Scouts? Hardly.
And my guess on BS, he's heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks. Turn off the war drums and wait to see what happens around June 30th when the details of the framework agreement are supposed to be codified into a substantive agreement that both sides take back to their governments for approval.
Ha! I'm heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks now? Yesterday I was a lobbyist/agent of Israel? The inability for some of you to hear an alternate opinion is staggering. Alternative music...good. Alternative opinion...bad.
My mother is Persian, and given that all but less than a handful of my German father's relatives lived through the Holocaust, my mom's side - huge family between here in LA, in NY and in London - and that Iranian culture - have been a constant.
Definitely for better and worse. But whatever - part of me.
We spent a summer in Tehran before the revolution and while it was so beautifully welcoming and sensual, warm and colorful (bless the food but fuck the traffic!), there was also a sense of oppression, of that have-to-look-around and check yourself feeling. Not in the usual (common) sense, but in a you-might-be-seriously-fucked-with sense.
Have mentioned before about having grown men at a construction site throwing stones at my physically-developed but eleven-year-old self. I will never forget it, their anger - such anger; how within whatever tenet can you reconcile your actions and conscience? - toward a girl wearing a tube top because it was hot.
Fuck that, and fuck them. You don't do that. You don't act like that.
And within my own family, I see prejudice that breaks my heart. Not necessarily an anti-US stance - the first generation came here in the late 40s with pretty much nothing and built businesses, families, communities, lives. But there is much close-mindedness in many veins. Traditions and lifestyles to be upheld, and attempts - from the older generation - to shame those who value choice and forging their / our own paths.
All that said, I wouldn't be myself without all of that, good, bad or within the spectrum.
Didn't intend to so ramble on! Just wanted to give my perspective.
This is fascinating to hear about. Thanks for the insight, Hedonist.
I'll be honest: the close-mindedness, the attachment to old-age traditions and values, the negative spin on choice and change - these are constants in a vast amount of different sects.
It happens in Judaism (and I would assume many other religions): why do we have derogative terms for "non-Jews"? Why has it been deemed unacceptable by many Jewish communities to not advocate for blind acceptance of any Israeli actions? It happens in Canadian culture: why with a church/state division do we still call out to a god to keep our land glorious and free? Why is it still illegal to drag a dead horse down Yonge Street in Toronto on a Sunday? It happened amongst white supremacists: Slave owners certainly would've frowned on promoting the black liberation movement.
Traditions, by virtue of what they are, represent older-time mentalities, which are (at least sometimes) not of proper 'today' mindset, omitting concepts such as equality, righteousness, and justice. Shame and guilt have always been present to help traditions maintain their places in peoples' lives.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
And the theory of exceptionalism doesn't apply to Iran? A country that despises Western culture and influence and see themselves as superior?
Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.
So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?
Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.
No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.
Nixon went to China, Reagan met with Gorbachev, Clinton opened relations with Vietnam and sent former Senator Mitchell to Ireland. All of these were much more preferable than "bombing", "going to war" or being isolationist. Difficult work ahead? Sure. Impossible? No. Going to war is easy and a sign of weakness and should be considered only as a last resort. You have to start somewhere and as john Lennon once said, "give peace a chance." Something I'm willing to try before embarking on another war of choice.
And how do you describe John Bolton who wrote an op-ed published in the NYT calling for the bombing of Iran because, "it's the only thing they understand?" Or McCain singing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran? Or, well the Bush administration that invaded Iraq, killing 4000+ Americans and upwards of a million Iraqis? Girl Scouts? Hardly.
And my guess on BS, he's heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks. Turn off the war drums and wait to see what happens around June 30th when the details of the framework agreement are supposed to be codified into a substantive agreement that both sides take back to their governments for approval.
Ha! I'm heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks now? Yesterday I was a lobbyist/agent of Israel? The inability for some of you to hear an alternate opinion is staggering. Alternative music...good. Alternative opinion...bad.
The inability of you to take a joke is staggering.
Comments
It's true that, at least since the advent of agriculture, war has been common. But it is possible to avoid war. At one point in their history Japan war war-free for something like 700 years. And as unlikely as it may seem for the world to be at peace, why would we not want to promote the idea? If we worked harder to share our cultures (like Henry Rollins has done downloading western music onto hard drives in remote corners of the world) and bring some of their music and art and literature back home we might find good reason to be at peace.
I'm grateful to those of you here who promote peace. Thank you!
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
To my point though, that IS an issue , this idea of American Exceptionalism. Height of ego for a country , no? Seems to preclude any kind of meeting of the minds.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
The problem as I see it is that chopping down divisive elements is the wrong way to go about it: we need to promote universal concern because of our differences, not in spite of them. Abolish religion and we'll fall back on nationalism. Abolish nationalism and we'll fall back on race. Abolish race and we'll fall back on class. Abolish class and we'll find something new. On the other hand, pivoting our concern from our division of choice to 'everyone' and the new mentality becomes a universal and easy to comprehend concept.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
But also in the present tense this arrogance is once again arising... For example in my country we do have one very anti Muslim politician, who also does play the blame game very, very well, (everything which goes wrong in our country, is entirely the fault of the immigrated Muslims, certainly not of the Europeans). Unfortunately he wins on support every election and sees the US as his great example. I don´t think I have to explain around here I will never, ever vote for this guy. But it worries me so many do. By blaming the Muslims he does single out a black sheep, and does divide our society, even further. Unfortunately this kind of messages win election because, they are fueling up the hatred and fear for a minority.
With this kind of rhetorical argumentation about 80 years ago some Austrian won elections in German, and murdered more than 6 million Jews. But the alienation of the Jews in these countries started way before he even was born. It started 60 years before the start of World War Two. When the Jews, became the elite in Austria and the locals, felt threaten to lose their dominant place in society.
History now a day tries to make Hitler into a devil, surely he wasn´t the nicest person to have around, but he was only human, he was a product of his hate fueled society, and only did take it to the next level. In my opinion this can happen once again, and looking at the growing hate and fear of Muslims, this is happening right now, all over again.
Step by step we are building up to a next disaster founded on difference of faith, as an excuse, to slaughter of entire groups of human beings. In my opinion the only way to prevent this is by talking to people, look for the commons, instead of the differences. Keep seeing them as persons instead of enemies! And to speak out to those who can´t do this anymore.
By this I do not mean that everyone has to be the same, or we must chop off divisive elements, because there will always be differences between people. That makes the world just a more adventures place to live in. But with all our differences, we have to live together on this planet, so lets try to respect each other, and stop trying to convince one another with force to accept our own world view. All our views on the world are different, but one is not better than the other, they are just different. Despite all our differences we do also have a lot in common. let these differences not divide us, but unit us...
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
why do americans allow this to happen??
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
And the AEI is a source I should trust because they got Iraq right. Sure, okay.
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/congress-prepares-to-flex-its-muscle-on-iran-nuclear-deal-to-obamas-chagrin/2015/04/13/1932c5b2-e219-11e4-81ea-0649268f729e_story.html?hpid=z1
Corker said Monday evening there is broad agreement on the basic process set out in the bill: the establishment of a review period during which congressionally imposed sanctions would remain in place, the ability of Congress to approve or disapprove the deal and, if the deal is approved, the creation of an ongoing congressional role in overseeing Iranian compliance. But some provisions have brought sharp opposition from President Obama and, more importantly, Senate Democrats who are otherwise inclined to support congressional review.
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.
So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?
Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0N50AJ20150414?irpc=932
We'll see what this does to the deal.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/04/14/hamas-pa-could-be-next-pawns-in-saudi-iranian-proxy-war/
(Fox News...so sorry...I know how it offends)
Nixon went to China, Reagan met with Gorbachev, Clinton opened relations with Vietnam and sent former Senator Mitchell to Ireland. All of these were much more preferable than "bombing", "going to war" or being isolationist. Difficult work ahead? Sure. Impossible? No. Going to war is easy and a sign of weakness and should be considered only as a last resort. You have to start somewhere and as john Lennon once said, "give peace a chance." Something I'm willing to try before embarking on another war of choice.
And how do you describe John Bolton who wrote an op-ed published in the NYT calling for the bombing of Iran because, "it's the only thing they understand?" Or McCain singing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran? Or, well the Bush administration that invaded Iraq, killing 4000+ Americans and upwards of a million Iraqis? Girl Scouts? Hardly.
And my guess on BS, he's heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks. Turn off the war drums and wait to see what happens around June 30th when the details of the framework agreement are supposed to be codified into a substantive agreement that both sides take back to their governments for approval.
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
Definitely for better and worse. But whatever - part of me.
We spent a summer in Tehran before the revolution and while it was so beautifully welcoming and sensual, warm and colorful (bless the food but fuck the traffic!), there was also a sense of oppression, of that have-to-look-around and check yourself feeling. Not in the usual (common) sense, but in a you-might-be-seriously-fucked-with sense.
Have mentioned before about having grown men at a construction site throwing stones at my physically-developed but eleven-year-old self. I will never forget it, their anger - such anger; how within whatever tenet can you reconcile your actions and conscience? - toward a girl wearing a tube top because it was hot.
Fuck that, and fuck them. You don't do that. You don't act like that.
And within my own family, I see prejudice that breaks my heart. Not necessarily an anti-US stance - the first generation came here in the late 40s with pretty much nothing and built businesses, families, communities, lives. But there is much close-mindedness in many veins. Traditions and lifestyles to be upheld, and attempts - from the older generation - to shame those who value choice and forging their / our own paths.
All that said, I wouldn't be myself without all of that, good, bad or within the spectrum.
Didn't intend to so ramble on! Just wanted to give my perspective.
Name me a list of all the clerical leaders in Iran that are publicly calling out for modernization.
We western people have to find small examples and then shine the spotlight to highlight what horrible people we are. McCain, for example, may say aggressive things towards Iran, but we aren't congregating outside his house on a weekly basis burning Iranian flags.
The fact that we brow-beat ourselves is goofy, but good, I guess. We have the freedom to think and express such thoughts.
I'll be honest: the close-mindedness, the attachment to old-age traditions and values, the negative spin on choice and change - these are constants in a vast amount of different sects.
It happens in Judaism (and I would assume many other religions): why do we have derogative terms for "non-Jews"? Why has it been deemed unacceptable by many Jewish communities to not advocate for blind acceptance of any Israeli actions?
It happens in Canadian culture: why with a church/state division do we still call out to a god to keep our land glorious and free? Why is it still illegal to drag a dead horse down Yonge Street in Toronto on a Sunday?
It happened amongst white supremacists: Slave owners certainly would've frowned on promoting the black liberation movement.
Traditions, by virtue of what they are, represent older-time mentalities, which are (at least sometimes) not of proper 'today' mindset, omitting concepts such as equality, righteousness, and justice. Shame and guilt have always been present to help traditions maintain their places in peoples' lives.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
http://freebeacon.com/national-security/north-korea-transfers-missile-goods-to-iran-during-nuclear-talks/