My opinion is nearly the same as Brian's so it is somewhat of a waste of time. I will answer your question, but after that , if you don't actually engage the topic and the points made you are a simply being a troll and I will discontinue feeding you.
Limiting human population means not allowing human population to grow until it is no longer sustainable. Duh. The barest knowledge of basic ecology shows that when a species' population and resultant consumption exceeds the ability of an ecosystem to provide consumables, that species will enter a period of rapid decline which may be irreversible. You keep asking for a specific number, even though you know, and it's been stated, that there is none. The average American generates 4.3 lbs of garbage per day. There are aprox 7 billion people on the planet. If everyone consumed as much as Americans do, we would probably already be fucked. If we produce much less impact on our planetary ecosystem, maybe Earth can support 15 or 20 billion, I don't know and nobody does. What we do know for sure is that people are having children for reasons that they shouldn't. Not having access to, or not bothering to use birth control results in untold numbers of children that were never wished for and therefore shouldn't have been born. Zany religious beliefs that require unrestricted reproduction need to go. Is 3 children too many? I don't know, but more than 10 is FOR DAMN SURE! We don't have all the answers and numbers to give you the exact answer you are seeking, but you are being foolish in requiring one. We don't know EXACTLY how to end terrorism, fix broken economies, or reverse anthropogenic warming, but we don't give up trying, or just sit and ask an endless procession of questions because we do have simple solutions for working toward these goals and they are the same as what Brian and I are suggesting. Education and accountability in the awareness of the impact each person has on the world at large.
OK PJFan here's the deal: I'm no trying to be Earth Dictator (good one rg!) nor suggesting we place strict controls on anyone and what they do. What I'm saying is very simple actually and does not require any specific answers or the precise number you so urgently and desperately require (sorry, weak attempt at sarcasm but I'm trying to communicate in the manner to which you are accustomed).
What I'm simply saying is that if humans were decently educated about things like the basic concepts of ecology, ecological succession, population biology, and sustainability (thanks, modern media for ruining that good word), they would get the rationale for keeping our numbers in check and increase our chances of survival as a species.
As for starting a family, my suggestion would be for couple to have one "scratch baby" (you know, made from scratch) and if they want more, adopt. But I definitely am not in favor of having something like that mandated. Like I've repeatedly said, I'm not in favor of strict controls. I'm into having better opportunities for people to be educated. Educated people make intelligent choices.
This is all so grossly oversimplified of course. There are a lot of other factors that complicate the matter: religion, politics, etc. But its a start.
I began to think about this in response to some of us having mentioned how we in first world countries live in a "bubble" and in my typically idealistic way way thinking, my brain went to working on ideas for how most everyone could live in a "bubble". You may say I'm a dreamer... but what the fuck. I dream. Dream with me.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
"The average American generates 4.3 lbs of garbage per day. "
Statistics like that absolutely blow my mind. Talk about bubble bursting! That's insane. Not to toot my own horn but after recycling and composting, what is left in my wife's and my weekly trash weighs on the average maybe a pound. The two of us, plus the two people who live in the apartment above the bookstore plus my wife's large bookstore business (about 350,000 titles- it's a big place) including the trash from the store's bathroom that gets a lot of use from customers plus trash generated by my book business- the trash from all of those combined loosely fill one standard trash container usually about 2/3 to (occasionally) full each week.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
"Scratch Baby" I freakin love that lol! That is the plan my wife and I have, as much because of the health detriments of pregnancy and birth as the impact it would have. Serious kudos on your trash limiting! My recycling here sucks (no pickup, you have to sort and transport yourself) so I have a barn full of recyclables waiting for me to load the truck up right now lol We take out about 1 full bag of trash every two weeks, and I can't get the trashman to discontinue stopping every week lol
OK PJFan here's the deal: I'm no trying to be Earth Dictator (good one rg!) nor suggesting we place strict controls on anyone and what they do. What I'm saying is very simple actually and does not require any specific answers or the precise number you so urgently and desperately require (sorry, weak attempt at sarcasm but I'm trying to communicate in the manner to which you are accustomed).
It's ok, sarcasm is language we call all speak at least.
A precise number I seek perhaps is a stretch but a picture in my head of some politician getting on stage who is in the running and part of the campaign speech says "we must limit human population" and outside I see a bunch of supporters echoing that statement but really have no idea what that means other than it sounds good from a dreamy politician.
What I'm simply saying is that if humans were decently educated about things like the basic concepts of ecology, ecological succession, population biology, and sustainability (thanks, modern media for ruining that good word), they would get the rationale for keeping our numbers in check and increase our chances of survival as a species.
I just agree limiting human population would be a sustainable way to further ourselves and this planet. What I disagree with is that it will not happen as that change must be enforced by others because humans will always, Always have the inclination to procreate. (most) Whether they do or not is up to them.
As for starting a family, my suggestion would be for couple to have one "scratch baby" (you know, made from scratch) and if they want more, adopt. But I definitely am not in favor of having something like that mandated. Like I've repeatedly said, I'm not in favor of strict controls. I'm into having better opportunities for people to be educated. Educated people make intelligent choices.
Scratch baby is an ideal solution and would fulfill a relationship but it is not always possible so other ways are sought to obtain a procreation. There is nothing wrong with that.
Adoption is always an option yes (goes back to that inclination that will always be in the mind) but will not always work as an option for some.
This is all so grossly oversimplified of course. There are a lot of other factors that complicate the matter: religion, politics, etc. But its a start.
Honestly I believe religion is the cause of the "Human limit" if you will. See recent pope speech.
That is for another debate but I just am adding that opinion to help you see where my thoughts come from.
I began to think about this in response to some of us having mentioned how we in first world countries live in a "bubble" and in my typically idealistic way way thinking, my brain went to working on ideas for how most everyone could live in a "bubble". You may say I'm a dreamer... but what the fuck. I dream. Dream with me.
I dream of a perfect world for sure. But when someone questions why my dream is so perfect I like to think that I have at least one solid point that everyone agrees when I answer.
Trash from food is probably the greatest contributor to that number. It would be great if people cooked more from scratch. Have you ever really looked at how much trash we generate based on food packaging? It's insane. Check out the photo essay Hungry Planet and compare the average amount of food eaten by families across the globe.
We are actually very capable, at this moment in time, of feeding the entire world and thus supporting the population at its current numbers. However, there is an uneven distribution of wealth, food, and resources in general which has created inequities in all these categories. If we don't attempt to sustain ourselves, at lower population numbers, we may find that it will be forced on us, ala Malthusian checks. If the west doesn't start making changes and creating more sustainable lifestyles we may find ourselves on the other side of that inequity. Just a short example, would be our continued reliance on coal and oil which will eventually run out or destroy much of our earth while many areas in the developing world utilize solar and wind power. If a Malthusian check did occur and we could no longer access our energy sources those 3rd world countries may become the economic giants.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
OK PJFan here's the deal: I'm no trying to be Earth Dictator (good one rg!) nor suggesting we place strict controls on anyone and what they do. What I'm saying is very simple actually and does not require any specific answers or the precise number you so urgently and desperately require (sorry, weak attempt at sarcasm but I'm trying to communicate in the manner to which you are accustomed).
It's ok, sarcasm is language we call all speak at least.
A precise number I seek perhaps is a stretch but a picture in my head of some politician getting on stage who is in the running and part of the campaign speech says "we must limit human population" and outside I see a bunch of supporters echoing that statement but really have no idea what that means other than it sounds good from a dreamy politician.
Maybe it's time we learn to tell the politicians what we want instead of the other way around- you know, the way it's supposed to work.
What I'm simply saying is that if humans were decently educated about things like the basic concepts of ecology, ecological succession, population biology, and sustainability (thanks, modern media for ruining that good word), they would get the rationale for keeping our numbers in check and increase our chances of survival as a species.
I just agree limiting human population would be a sustainable way to further ourselves and this planet. What I disagree with is that it will not happen as that change must be enforced by others because humans will always, Always have the inclination to procreate. (most) Whether they do or not is up to them.
I never suggested we stop the urge to procreate, but rather learn to limit ourselves through common sense. I'm suggesting education leading to wise choices, not any kind of enforcement.
As for starting a family, my suggestion would be for couple to have one "scratch baby" (you know, made from scratch) and if they want more, adopt. But I definitely am not in favor of having something like that mandated. Like I've repeatedly said, I'm not in favor of strict controls. I'm into having better opportunities for people to be educated. Educated people make intelligent choices.
Scratch baby is an ideal solution and would fulfill a relationship but it is not always possible so other ways are sought to obtain a procreation. There is nothing wrong with that.
Adoption is always an option yes (goes back to that inclination that will always be in the mind) but will not always work as an option for some.
This is all so grossly oversimplified of course. There are a lot of other factors that complicate the matter: religion, politics, etc. But its a start.
Honestly I believe religion is the cause of the "Human limit" if you will. See recent pope speech.
That is for another debate but I just am adding that opinion to help you see where my thoughts come from.
I began to think about this in response to some of us having mentioned how we in first world countries live in a "bubble" and in my typically idealistic way way thinking, my brain went to working on ideas for how most everyone could live in a "bubble". You may say I'm a dreamer... but what the fuck. I dream. Dream with me.
I dream of a perfect world for sure. But when someone questions why my dream is so perfect I like to think that I have at least one solid point that everyone agrees when I answer.
I'm sorry you see me as believing my dream is so perfect. I did say it is "oversimplified" and just "a start".
" I like to think that I have at least one solid point that everyone agrees when I answer."
I'm not sure I follow that. Can you rephrase it please?
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Trash from food is probably the greatest contributor to that number. It would be great if people cooked more from scratch. Have you ever really looked at how much trash we generate based on food packaging? It's insane. Check out the photo essay Hungry Planet and compare the average amount of food eaten by families across the globe.
So true, riotgrl! I wish I could find it now, but in one of his books, Wendell Berry spelled out some very common sense ideas for humans to live sustainably (before that work got bastardized and watered down by current media). In that essay he emphasizes things like making more of our own food from scratch, using durable tools and products, and so forth. And, of course, said it far more eloquently than I can. :-)
We are actually very capable, at this moment in time, of feeding the entire world and thus supporting the population at its current numbers. However, there is an uneven distribution of wealth, food, and resources in general which has created inequities in all these categories. If we don't attempt to sustain ourselves, at lower population numbers, we may find that it will be forced on us, ala Malthusian checks. If the west doesn't start making changes and creating more sustainable lifestyles we may find ourselves on the other side of that inequity. Just a short example, would be our continued reliance on coal and oil which will eventually run out or destroy much of our earth while many areas in the developing world utilize solar and wind power. If a Malthusian check did occur and we could no longer access our energy sources those 3rd world countries may become the economic giants.
I've read statistic that both support and deny the idea that the earth could sustain the current world population. I'm not convinced that's the case but if it is, we in first world nations would certainly all need to live much more simply. I don't see any way 7.29 billion people could all drive cars, have TV's and computers, etc. etc. (Yes, I live in that world too.)
Meanwhile, the world population keeps escalating. Every once in a long while I stare at this and scratch my head:
Trash from food is probably the greatest contributor to that number. It would be great if people cooked more from scratch. Have you ever really looked at how much trash we generate based on food packaging? It's insane. Check out the photo essay Hungry Planet and compare the average amount of food eaten by families across the globe.
We are actually very capable, at this moment in time, of feeding the entire world and thus supporting the population at its current numbers. However, there is an uneven distribution of wealth, food, and resources in general which has created inequities in all these categories. If we don't attempt to sustain ourselves, at lower population numbers, we may find that it will be forced on us, ala Malthusian checks. If the west doesn't start making changes and creating more sustainable lifestyles we may find ourselves on the other side of that inequity. Just a short example, would be our continued reliance on coal and oil which will eventually run out or destroy much of our earth while many areas in the developing world utilize solar and wind power. If a Malthusian check did occur and we could no longer access our energy sources those 3rd world countries may become the economic giants.
Not just trash from food, but trash AS food as well. On the large scale, I look at buffets at restaurants and on cruise ships, the spreads on the sets of films and TV, the food lost/thrown out on cooking shows...it's ridiculous. And that's just off the top of my head.
And then on the small scale - hell, I have to look at myself first, where I'll buy some food or produce and don't eat it all in time before it spoils. Or the company I work for, they order in a nice lunch for the office each month. There are always leftovers, and while those are descended upon by our employees (I've never been quick enough to get some, and actually would feel uncomfortable doing so), I've fantasized about fixing up a huge plate and giving it to one of the several hungry homeless folks who hang out near our business.
Trash from food is probably the greatest contributor to that number. It would be great if people cooked more from scratch. Have you ever really looked at how much trash we generate based on food packaging? It's insane. Check out the photo essay Hungry Planet and compare the average amount of food eaten by families across the globe.
We are actually very capable, at this moment in time, of feeding the entire world and thus supporting the population at its current numbers. However, there is an uneven distribution of wealth, food, and resources in general which has created inequities in all these categories. If we don't attempt to sustain ourselves, at lower population numbers, we may find that it will be forced on us, ala Malthusian checks. If the west doesn't start making changes and creating more sustainable lifestyles we may find ourselves on the other side of that inequity. Just a short example, would be our continued reliance on coal and oil which will eventually run out or destroy much of our earth while many areas in the developing world utilize solar and wind power. If a Malthusian check did occur and we could no longer access our energy sources those 3rd world countries may become the economic giants.
Not just trash from food, but trash AS food as well. On the large scale, I look at buffets at restaurants and on cruise ships, the spreads on the sets of films and TV, the food lost/thrown out on cooking shows...it's ridiculous. And that's just off the top of my head.
And then on the small scale - hell, I have to look at myself first, where I'll buy some food or produce and don't eat it all in time before it spoils. Or the company I work for, they order in a nice lunch for the office each month. There are always leftovers, and while those are descended upon by our employees (I've never been quick enough to get some, and actually would feel uncomfortable doing so), I've fantasized about fixing up a huge plate and giving it to one of the several hungry homeless folks who hang out near our business.
Oh, for sure, Hedo. What amazes me is seeing people order a meal in a restaurant and walk away with half of it left on the plate. (Of course I'm just as surprised if someone can actually finishing eating an entire portion served in most restaurants.) The two of us always spit an order and ask for a second plate. Used to be, some restaurants would charge for a second plate on one order but most places seem cool with doing that now.
What a great idea to fix a meal for a homeless person. It really bugs me that restaurants are no longer allowed to give food out the back door to the homeless. Some places even lock their trash to prohibit dumpster diving. Of course it's even more disturbing that there are homeless people and the need to dumpster dive in a country as wealthy as ours. We had a city authorized homeless camp and food provisions here in Placerville for a while but it got shut down. I don't know the homeless get by today. Really sad.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I don't hold much hope for humanity. It just doesn't seem like we have the collective will to solve our problems.
You probably know my mantra by now but once again: "Hope is not the conviction that things will turn out well. Hope is the conviction to do what makes sense no matter how things turn out."
-Vaclav Havel
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Trash from food is probably the greatest contributor to that number. It would be great if people cooked more from scratch. Have you ever really looked at how much trash we generate based on food packaging? It's insane. Check out the photo essay Hungry Planet and compare the average amount of food eaten by families across the globe.
We are actually very capable, at this moment in time, of feeding the entire world and thus supporting the population at its current numbers. However, there is an uneven distribution of wealth, food, and resources in general which has created inequities in all these categories. If we don't attempt to sustain ourselves, at lower population numbers, we may find that it will be forced on us, ala Malthusian checks. If the west doesn't start making changes and creating more sustainable lifestyles we may find ourselves on the other side of that inequity. Just a short example, would be our continued reliance on coal and oil which will eventually run out or destroy much of our earth while many areas in the developing world utilize solar and wind power. If a Malthusian check did occur and we could no longer access our energy sources those 3rd world countries may become the economic giants.
Not just trash from food, but trash AS food as well. On the large scale, I look at buffets at restaurants and on cruise ships, the spreads on the sets of films and TV, the food lost/thrown out on cooking shows...it's ridiculous. And that's just off the top of my head.
And then on the small scale - hell, I have to look at myself first, where I'll buy some food or produce and don't eat it all in time before it spoils. Or the company I work for, they order in a nice lunch for the office each month. There are always leftovers, and while those are descended upon by our employees (I've never been quick enough to get some, and actually would feel uncomfortable doing so), I've fantasized about fixing up a huge plate and giving it to one of the several hungry homeless folks who hang out near our business.
Yes, this is exactly what I mean when I say there is enough food to feed the world.
As far as everyone being able to drive and live the way we do in the US then I don't see that happening. Just look at China to see how horribly wrong it goes trying to live on the scale we do in the US!
Unfortunately, I don't see the West making any changes until it is forced.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
My opinion is nearly the same as Brian's so it is somewhat of a waste of time.
I will answer your question, but after that , if you don't actually engage the topic and the points made you are a simply being a troll and I will discontinue feeding you.
Duh.
We don't have all the answers and numbers to give you the exact answer you are seeking, but you are being foolish in requiring one.
So out of your entire rant all I truly read is a condescending tone towards the reader. I guess before I proceed with any banter may I ask you how old do you think the Earth is?
PJfan, I've found you to be a pretty decent (and yes, albeit sarcastic) person, but I'm not sure where this friction comes from? Brian is one of the least combative and most candid people I've come to know here. Will say the same for gambo as well.
I just finished reading "The zeitgeist movement defined". The book off essays explaining the movement and its tenets says, for one; that this should be a world of abundance. The reason we (north) Americans live in this bubble is purely because of the capitalist market system that systemically needs scarcity to create the illusion of a needed monetary system. We do live in a bubble, and its going to go pop, soon. Capitalism is no longer needed, it is destroying the world. saddly, I believe our dance with devil is too far gone to be stopped. However, lets just hope all hell doesn't break out when the oceans rise and other climate calamities wreak havoc and destruction on the earth. I believe that one day, the world will seek a new approach to life. One based on nature's laws and not the laws of politicians and believers of the "invisible man". If it happens in my lifetime, I will gladly help others understand that the Z movement is the way to go. This should be a world of abundance for all, capitalism will not accomplish this at all.
PJfan, I've found you to be a pretty decent (and yes, albeit sarcastic) person, but I'm not sure where this friction comes from? Brian is one of the least combative and most candid people I've come to know here. Will say the same for gambo as well.
I don't have friction with Brian. He has responded to my pointed questions.
The only responses from rgams to myself have all been encapsulated with insults - right from the very first one.
Albeit, being sarcastic is a fairly big part of who I am I don't resort to condescension whenever I speak.
So we (in US) drive vehicles that have traditionally been less fuel efficient to our European brothers and sisters. Some could say we are wasteful. Big engines, big dimensions. So observe European expats that do tour here, many get the big SUV, big sports sedans. So think any human in our environment would act same. So guilty, no, realize I have it made, but know any human in my position would maximize environment.
So in a Bubble? Maybe, to an extent, as I haven't had to endure as many humans have. But I know what I have and know how it feels to be hungry and cold.
Others here that have never experience other cultures, poverty, pain. Maybe, maybe not. Humans understand strife, it's very primal, just may not want to dwell. Why read story of starving people being slaughtered ? Not uplifting or really interesting. So CNN stays away, not enough clicks.
I found your repetition of the same question when given legitimate answers to be a perfect representation of condescension. You came off, to me, like a teacher trying to make an example of a student by repeating the same question over and over waiting for the answer you deem appropriate, rather than addressing the answers given and your issues with them. Which you finally did, when he put his previous responses together into one post. I don't hold grudges, I just call it like I see it, and I am glad you are engaging the topic now.
When I first glanced at the title of this thread I kinda chuckled.Mrs RR calls our town a bubble.Im sorry if it's not as deep in thought or broad in terms of world view or population density that others have mentioned,so I will tell ya what I think of when I hear bubble.
My wife references "living in a bubble" when describing how we live here in Jupiter.Within a small radius of my home we have our business,gym,beach,shopping,where our kids went to school when they were living at home,Gourmet markets,Many waterfront eateries,Parks and medical/vet hospitals ,Etc.If a dome were to be dropped over our town(like the show) we could be pretty much self suffient with the exception of heavy agriculture.Our bubble is an upscale,affluent predominantly Caucasian beachside hamlet with so many golf courses and country clubs and celebrities and sports stars it would blow your mind for a town of 60k.People who live in our bubble sometimes act as if they are separated from the majority of the population.We bitch(me included) if we have to drive 8 miles to the next city over Palm Beach Gardens, to go to the mall or other restaurants/bars in our areas main nightlife area.People talk of some of the cities and towns close by that are more crime riddled and racially more diverse as if they were continents away even though they are in our county.
It hits you in the face sometimes.I ran out for pizza tonight,and as I'm heading back to my car I took a moment to absorb what Was in front of me.A line of cars that looked like a luxury dealership.3 Benz,2 Caddy,3 BMW,1 Toyota,1 Range Rover,Denali,Porsche and 2audis,that was just the row I was walking toward.The whole lot,hundreds of cars were basically the same makes.
Is this reality or is my neighbors(and am I) living in a fabricated environment? Will our children be victims of these materialistic surroundings?Will the lack of diversity they see in private school or the 90%nwhite 3k public school have an adverse effect when they integrate in the world outside the bubble?Or will having a life that was comfortable teach them to give more if they have more?
I'm a hypocrite to some degree.I live here.I park in the same lot.I sent my kids to those schools.I can only hope that keeping it real within our family and raising my kids right will allow them to grow as wonderful human beings and not myopically thinking reality is what happens here at home.
Would you all consider this living in a bubble?
Note.Our public schools do bus in a number of kids from minority areas.I have always thought this was a by product of wanting to field championship football teams.Not diversity And as we have 4state Championships in the last 6 years between 2 schools.i may be correct.
Population isn't the problem. The uneven distribution of wealth is the problem. You could cut the world's population by 4 billion people, and there would still be uneven distribution of wealth. We need to get rid of greed and the craving for power for everyone to love inside the bubble together. So it's never going to happen.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Population isn't the problem. The uneven distribution of wealth is the problem. You could cut the world's population by 4 billion people, and there would still be uneven distribution of wealth. We need to get rid of greed and the craving for power for everyone to love inside the bubble together. So it's never going to happen.
Until some things change in big and major ways, you're probably right PJ_Soul. But things will change, they just have to. That's what we don't want to think about because that bursts our bubble, spoils the party, takes the comfort away. I hate saying that. Who wants to spoil a good party?
I don't want to get too much into futurizing- there's already a plethora of utopian/dystopian stories out there (though I have to admit, George R. Stewart's Earth Abides sure works for me)- but things will change and the human population very likely will diminish greatly anyway.
So with all that it mind, does it not make sense to work on a plan? There are some good starts to that going on:
New tribalism seems like a good start. Daniel Quinn's Ishmael helped get that going.
Richard Heinberg and the Post Carbon Institute are looking forward in brilliant ways. (See http://www.postcarbon.org/ )
I'm sure these are just the tip of the iceberg. We're living on the edge of something big. It may be a rough ride down but short of total annihilation, there are many excellent possible outcomes. It's a fantastic time in history to be alive.
Post edited by brianlux on
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Comments
Limiting human population means not allowing human population to grow until it is no longer sustainable. Duh. The barest knowledge of basic ecology shows that when a species' population and resultant consumption exceeds the ability of an ecosystem to provide consumables, that species will enter a period of rapid decline which may be irreversible. You keep asking for a specific number, even though you know, and it's been stated, that there is none. The average American generates 4.3 lbs of garbage per day. There are aprox 7 billion people on the planet. If everyone consumed as much as Americans do, we would probably already be fucked. If we produce much less impact on our planetary ecosystem, maybe Earth can support 15 or 20 billion, I don't know and nobody does. What we do know for sure is that people are having children for reasons that they shouldn't. Not having access to, or not bothering to use birth control results in untold numbers of children that were never wished for and therefore shouldn't have been born. Zany religious beliefs that require unrestricted reproduction need to go. Is 3 children too many? I don't know, but more than 10 is FOR DAMN SURE!
We don't have all the answers and numbers to give you the exact answer you are seeking, but you are being foolish in requiring one.
We don't know EXACTLY how to end terrorism, fix broken economies, or reverse anthropogenic warming, but we don't give up trying, or just sit and ask an endless procession of questions because we do have simple solutions for working toward these goals and they are the same as what Brian and I are suggesting. Education and accountability in the awareness of the impact each person has on the world at large.
What I'm simply saying is that if humans were decently educated about things like the basic concepts of ecology, ecological succession, population biology, and sustainability (thanks, modern media for ruining that good word), they would get the rationale for keeping our numbers in check and increase our chances of survival as a species.
As for starting a family, my suggestion would be for couple to have one "scratch baby" (you know, made from scratch) and if they want more, adopt. But I definitely am not in favor of having something like that mandated. Like I've repeatedly said, I'm not in favor of strict controls. I'm into having better opportunities for people to be educated. Educated people make intelligent choices.
This is all so grossly oversimplified of course. There are a lot of other factors that complicate the matter: religion, politics, etc. But its a start.
I began to think about this in response to some of us having mentioned how we in first world countries live in a "bubble" and in my typically idealistic way way thinking, my brain went to working on ideas for how most everyone could live in a "bubble". You may say I'm a dreamer... but what the fuck. I dream. Dream with me.
"The average American generates 4.3 lbs of garbage per day. "
Statistics like that absolutely blow my mind. Talk about bubble bursting! That's insane. Not to toot my own horn but after recycling and composting, what is left in my wife's and my weekly trash weighs on the average maybe a pound. The two of us, plus the two people who live in the apartment above the bookstore plus my wife's large bookstore business (about 350,000 titles- it's a big place) including the trash from the store's bathroom that gets a lot of use from customers plus trash generated by my book business- the trash from all of those combined loosely fill one standard trash container usually about 2/3 to (occasionally) full each week.
Serious kudos on your trash limiting! My recycling here sucks (no pickup, you have to sort and transport yourself) so I have a barn full of recyclables waiting for me to load the truck up right now lol
We take out about 1 full bag of trash every two weeks, and I can't get the trashman to discontinue stopping every week lol
We are actually very capable, at this moment in time, of feeding the entire world and thus supporting the population at its current numbers. However, there is an uneven distribution of wealth, food, and resources in general which has created inequities in all these categories. If we don't attempt to sustain ourselves, at lower population numbers, we may find that it will be forced on us, ala Malthusian checks. If the west doesn't start making changes and creating more sustainable lifestyles we may find ourselves on the other side of that inequity. Just a short example, would be our continued reliance on coal and oil which will eventually run out or destroy much of our earth while many areas in the developing world utilize solar and wind power. If a Malthusian check did occur and we could no longer access our energy sources those 3rd world countries may become the economic giants.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
So true, riotgrl! I wish I could find it now, but in one of his books, Wendell Berry spelled out some very common sense ideas for humans to live sustainably (before that work got bastardized and watered down by current media). In that essay he emphasizes things like making more of our own food from scratch, using durable tools and products, and so forth. And, of course, said it far more eloquently than I can. :-)
I've read statistic that both support and deny the idea that the earth could sustain the current world population. I'm not convinced that's the case but if it is, we in first world nations would certainly all need to live much more simply. I don't see any way 7.29 billion people could all drive cars, have TV's and computers, etc. etc. (Yes, I live in that world too.)
Meanwhile, the world population keeps escalating. Every once in a long while I stare at this and scratch my head:
http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/
And then on the small scale - hell, I have to look at myself first, where I'll buy some food or produce and don't eat it all in time before it spoils. Or the company I work for, they order in a nice lunch for the office each month. There are always leftovers, and while those are descended upon by our employees (I've never been quick enough to get some, and actually would feel uncomfortable doing so), I've fantasized about fixing up a huge plate and giving it to one of the several hungry homeless folks who hang out near our business.
Oh, for sure, Hedo. What amazes me is seeing people order a meal in a restaurant and walk away with half of it left on the plate. (Of course I'm just as surprised if someone can actually finishing eating an entire portion served in most restaurants.) The two of us always spit an order and ask for a second plate. Used to be, some restaurants would charge for a second plate on one order but most places seem cool with doing that now.
What a great idea to fix a meal for a homeless person. It really bugs me that restaurants are no longer allowed to give food out the back door to the homeless. Some places even lock their trash to prohibit dumpster diving. Of course it's even more disturbing that there are homeless people and the need to dumpster dive in a country as wealthy as ours. We had a city authorized homeless camp and food provisions here in Placerville for a while but it got shut down. I don't know the homeless get by today. Really sad.
You probably know my mantra by now but once again: "Hope is not the conviction that things will turn out well. Hope is the conviction to do what makes sense no matter how things turn out."
-Vaclav Havel
Yes, this is exactly what I mean when I say there is enough food to feed the world.
As far as everyone being able to drive and live the way we do in the US then I don't see that happening. Just look at China to see how horribly wrong it goes trying to live on the scale we do in the US!
Unfortunately, I don't see the West making any changes until it is forced.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
So out of your entire rant all I truly read is a condescending tone towards the reader. I guess before I proceed with any banter may I ask you how old do you think the Earth is?
Thank you.
Here is a link to the book
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/uploads/upload/file/15/TZM_Guide_Essays_1-13.pdf
In joyous part.
I don't have friction with Brian. He has responded to my pointed questions.
The only responses from rgams to myself have all been encapsulated with insults - right from the very first one.
Albeit, being sarcastic is a fairly big part of who I am I don't resort to condescension whenever I speak.
So we (in US) drive vehicles that have traditionally been less fuel efficient to our European brothers and sisters. Some could say we are wasteful. Big engines, big dimensions. So observe European expats that do tour here, many get the big SUV, big sports sedans. So think any human in our environment would act same. So guilty, no, realize I have it made, but know any human in my position would maximize environment.
So in a Bubble? Maybe, to an extent, as I haven't had to endure as many humans have. But I know what I have and know how it feels to be hungry and cold.
Others here that have never experience other cultures, poverty, pain. Maybe, maybe not. Humans understand strife, it's very primal, just may not want to dwell. Why read story of starving people being slaughtered ? Not uplifting or really interesting. So CNN stays away, not enough clicks.
I found your repetition of the same question when given legitimate answers to be a perfect representation of condescension. You came off, to me, like a teacher trying to make an example of a student by repeating the same question over and over waiting for the answer you deem appropriate, rather than addressing the answers given and your issues with them.
Which you finally did, when he put his previous responses together into one post.
I don't hold grudges, I just call it like I see it, and I am glad you are engaging the topic now.
My wife references "living in a bubble" when describing how we live here in Jupiter.Within a small radius of my home we have our business,gym,beach,shopping,where our kids went to school when they were living at home,Gourmet markets,Many waterfront eateries,Parks and medical/vet hospitals ,Etc.If a dome were to be dropped over our town(like the show) we could be pretty much self suffient with the exception of heavy agriculture.Our bubble is an upscale,affluent predominantly Caucasian beachside hamlet with so many golf courses and country clubs and celebrities and sports stars it would blow your mind for a town of 60k.People who live in our bubble sometimes act as if they are separated from the majority of the population.We bitch(me included) if we have to drive 8 miles to the next city over Palm Beach Gardens, to go to the mall or other restaurants/bars in our areas main nightlife area.People talk of some of the cities and towns close by that are more crime riddled and racially more diverse as if they were continents away even though they are in our county.
It hits you in the face sometimes.I ran out for pizza tonight,and as I'm heading back to my car I took a moment to absorb what Was in front of me.A line of cars that looked like a luxury dealership.3 Benz,2 Caddy,3 BMW,1 Toyota,1 Range Rover,Denali,Porsche and 2audis,that was just the row I was walking toward.The whole lot,hundreds of cars were basically the same makes.
Is this reality or is my neighbors(and am I) living in a fabricated environment? Will our children be victims of these materialistic surroundings?Will the lack of diversity they see in private school or the 90%nwhite 3k public school have an adverse effect when they integrate in the world outside the bubble?Or will having a life that was comfortable teach them to give more if they have more?
I'm a hypocrite to some degree.I live here.I park in the same lot.I sent my kids to those schools.I can only hope that keeping it real within our family and raising my kids right will allow them to grow as wonderful human beings and not myopically thinking reality is what happens here at home.
Would you all consider this living in a bubble?
Note.Our public schools do bus in a number of kids from minority areas.I have always thought this was a by product of wanting to field championship football teams.Not diversity And as we have 4state Championships in the last 6 years between 2 schools.i may be correct.
Until some things change in big and major ways, you're probably right PJ_Soul. But things will change, they just have to. That's what we don't want to think about because that bursts our bubble, spoils the party, takes the comfort away. I hate saying that. Who wants to spoil a good party?
I don't want to get too much into futurizing- there's already a plethora of utopian/dystopian stories out there (though I have to admit, George R. Stewart's Earth Abides sure works for me)- but things will change and the human population very likely will diminish greatly anyway.
So with all that it mind, does it not make sense to work on a plan? There are some good starts to that going on:
New tribalism seems like a good start. Daniel Quinn's Ishmael helped get that going.
The New Urbanism movement has huge potential (see http://www.newurbanism.org/ )
Richard Heinberg and the Post Carbon Institute are looking forward in brilliant ways. (See http://www.postcarbon.org/ )
I'm sure these are just the tip of the iceberg. We're living on the edge of something big. It may be a rough ride down but short of total annihilation, there are many excellent possible outcomes. It's a fantastic time in history to be alive.