Charlie Hebdo Paris shooting: 12 dead after gunmen storm newspaper's HQ
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Ben! Welcome back bro. Your input is needed my friend0
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Certain aspects of science are questioned, sure, but can anyone reasonably question the idea of a black hole, gravity, evolution, or any thing else in science that you insist are "theories"? It's funny that evolution is treated as both a "theory" and a "fact" whenever it is convenient to treat it as such.It's incredible that we can question so many things in our society (religion, etc.) and yet hold up other ideals in such dogmatic ways without questioning them as well!
Just a comment: that's the thing with science...It IS ALWAYS QUESTIONED. As you said it yourself, it's all theories.
Theories get disproven and new ones are formulated all the time. Evolution and gravity for example, even though they SEEM to be correct and have been around for a long time, are still theories.
No one knows how the universe works, and yeah, I guess I prefer science's theories to religion's stories... but that's because science never settles with anything. It IS flawed. Yet it keeps striving to get better.
Maybe tomorrow some dude in India will find that imaginary numbers are a load of crap... And that's fine! We will have a new theory to work on. But to settle on something, written thousands of years ago as gospel? I could never accept that…
The fact is that most people who question these theories would be laughed out of the room. Why? Because unless you have another theory to present in its place, then you're just questioning for questioning's sake. So it's not enough for one to say, "Prove to us that Evolution exists beyond a doubt!" for us to reject evolution (i.e., the onus is not on you to PROVE that evolution exists beyond a doubt) but then this person will have to prove why evolution is also false (i.e., he/she will have to prove something that they don't believe to exist in the first place, doesn't exist) to actually get anyone credible to listen to them.
People who accept science believe in things written hundreds of years ago (the theory of evolution was presented hundreds of years ago...) and accept it as gospel. Do you honestly believe someone will come along and prove that evolution is false? I think someone like you (as me) is highly doubtful of that...0 -
A dog a toaster oven? It's true, science IS science and religion IS religion. Those are astute word observations you made there. But I think the point that someone else made comparing science to religion regards how easily some here accept and apply it as a dogmatic canon.Science is not a religion. Oh where to start but does it really matter. If one truly believes this then there is no convincing.
Biggy, Science actively seeks challenges and will evolve to new evidence.
Yes there are many unanswered questions but answers are not found in religious texts written by relatively ignorant humans reinterpreted by many more and now used as gospel.
The comparison is silly at best.
Allow science to work the facts and use golden rule for our morals and laws.
We're getting off topic a bit here but, yeah, calling science a religion is like calling a dog a toaster oven. There seems to be a plethora of books out there now that try to marry science and religion but to confuse the two is nonsense. Science is science, religion is religion.
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A dog a toaster oven? It's true, science IS science and religion IS religion. Those are astute word observations you made there. But I think the point that someone else made comparing science to religion regards how easily some here accept and apply it as a dogmatic canon.Science is not a religion. Oh where to start but does it really matter. If one truly believes this then there is no convincing.
Biggy, Science actively seeks challenges and will evolve to new evidence.
Yes there are many unanswered questions but answers are not found in religious texts written by relatively ignorant humans reinterpreted by many more and now used as gospel.
The comparison is silly at best.
Allow science to work the facts and use golden rule for our morals and laws.
We're getting off topic a bit here but, yeah, calling science a religion is like calling a dog a toaster oven. There seems to be a plethora of books out there now that try to marry science and religion but to confuse the two is nonsense. Science is science, religion is religion.
Exactly. Science viewed as a dogmatic (I see a "dog" theme evolving here) canon makes as much sense as expecting a toaster oven to roll over or bark. They work on completely different principles.
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
As long as we classify belief systems, the radical terrorism will win, instead of letting ourselves get more and more defied, why can't we learn from our different belief systems, and learn to listen to others?
I have no interest in listening to mythologies which cause people to believe it is OK to kill people because of cartoons they draw, or have clerics issuing fatwas on snowmen, or parents who think it is OK to disown children because they're gay, or people who can't eat meat and dairy on the same plates. You talk about belief systems, and the problem is, many of us aren't interested in suspending disbelief and looking for some mythological road to salvation. Belief systems are just that - one must believe in something they can never actually know. I'd rather be informed by reality, science, logic and reason as opposed to old books and fairy tales. When something isn't known, there's no reason to make up fantastic stories to fill in the blanks.
What's interesting to me is that people so often reduce science to the realm of reason and religion to the realm of the imagination and "fairy tales" without realizing that the two are more connected than one thinks.
Well, I don't really want to pile onto what caifan82 and callen have already pointed out, but I think you've completely missed the mark. Everything that follows your premise above did nothing to lend credence to that premise. Science and religion/mythology could not be more different. There are certainly things which can't be known or proven. The approach with science is to postulate or theorize, and then attempt to prove or disprove. If disproved, a new theory will be published with the new data. Data is always being considered, and theories are always being tested and revised if necessary. With religion, some man wrote something in a book and others will then follow along. Any attempts to disprove or refute what is written is not condoned, and is often punished. Adherents are taught to have "faith", not question. There are plenty of fundies in southern states who try to pass laws to teach creationism alongside evolution because after all, they're both theories. That sounds like an argument you'd embrace, since you see science and religion as "more connected than one thinks." That is an argument that reason doesn't allow, since one "theory" is something one has to learn and believe from holy texts, and the other is something which science continues to question and evaluate.
That's a very bizarre and rudimentary understanding of both religion and religious history you have presented here. I don't blame you entirely - this is probably colored by your encounter with many ignorant religious folk over the course of your life - but you do have some responsibility I think to actually read up on this shit. Religion is FAR more complex than you are making it out to be, and the idea that religion doesn't teach you to question is not entirely true. Some religious people (clerics, rulers, etc.) who find it politically convenient to have a bunch of blind followers certainly teach you not to question, but this is true of EVERYTHING that involves power, not just religion. But historically some of religions' biggest critics (if not most) have been from members of that same religion. Someone on here for instance mentioned that science always continues to evolve while religion stays the same (something you yourself hinted at). This is completely and utter nonsense. I mean, just think about the history of Christianity -- you actually wanna believe that it hasn't evolved? That it didn't have different conditions throughout history it was dealing with? That's just not true. Religious thinkers were building on the works of those preceding them,and they had some canons that they had to accept, true, but they questioned and they dealt with so much more that it's criminal for you to reduce world history to this... There's a reason that some of the best scientists known to man, who came up with discoveries related to travel, developed the sciences of Algebra, Chemistry, Medicine, and so on, were also Islamic jurists living in the Middle Ages.
On the other hand, scientists have done the same thing. They accept some of the canonical work that science tells us to accept and they work to build on that. These are the similarities I see.
As for your last little quip, I think the US educational system is far more flawed actually, and the way science is taught needs incredible reform. The philosophy of it is completely lost and we are taught that there are only data sets and rational experimentation, which is far from the truth.0 -
paulonious wrote: »No science isn't a religion, but the belief system of science has so much resemblance with the belief systems of religions... We do not know that many facts, and science can overrule facts as it has done many times in the past. (Earth the center of the universe and the sun revolving around earth, a flat world, etc,) all those facts have been proven wrong, but why is it so challenging for us, to give in to the fact that we do by fare not know all there is, and do just belief most scientific theories. It is just an other belief, I do do BELIEF most scientific theories, but I'm a child of my time. I do NOT belief in a GOD, but I don't say that my beliefs are any better than someone elses. They are just different.
science doesn't resemble religion at all. one evolves with new information, the other does not.
I responded to this point above, but yeah...not true...lol. Religion absolutely evolves with time.0 -
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/paris-magazine-attack/paris-supermarket-attack-hero-lassana-bathily-receives-french-citizenship-n289451
PARIS — A 24-year-old Malian immigrant who hid a group of hostages during a terror attack at a kosher supermarket was awarded French citizenship Tuesday in a ceremony that showcased his courage and selflessness.
Lassana Bathily, who has lived in France for about nine years and filed his citizenship papers last summer, was fast-tracked for citizenship, sparing him from the notoriously arduous process of becoming a naturalized Frenchman.
Bathily, dressed in a black suit and white shirt, walked into Tuesday's ceremony flanked by French Prime Minister Manuel Valls and Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve. He stood with his head bowed and his hands clasped as Cazeneuve praised his actions as "the highest gesture of Islam and peace" and welcomed him as "the newest citizen at the heart of this country."
Bathily was given a letter from French President François Hollande, a medal and a book on citizenship. Then he stepped slowly to the podium. "People tell me I am a hero. I am not a hero. I am trying to stay myself," he said, visibly moved. He expressed his desire to see and help his family back home. He received a standing ovation when he finished with: "I am very happy. Long live liberty! Long live friendship! Long live solidarity! Long live France!"
The story of Bathily, a Muslim who saved Jews from possible death, has provided France with a heroic figure after a horrific spasm of violence that began with the Jan. 7 attack on the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo.
Bathily was working at a Hyper Cacher store on Jan. 9 when it was attacked by Islamist gunman Amedy Coulibaly, the radicalized son of Malian immigrants. Four hostages were killed before police shot Coulibaly dead.
According to accounts given to French media and to a friend who spoke to The Associated Press, Bathily was in the store's basement when the attacker burst in upstairs. Bathily then hid a group of frightened shoppers, including a 2-year-old-child, inside the freezer before escaping to communicate with police. Security officials initially thought he was the attacker, and he was forced to the ground and handcuffed.
Once police realized their mistake, he provided them with the key they needed to open the supermarket's metal blinds and mount their assault. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu later praised Bathily and said he "helped save seven Jews."
Pierre Henry, the president of the French government's refugee assistance agency, described Bathily as "a righteous one among the righteous' who should serve as a role model to our youth." He added: "Lassana Bathily enriches us by joining the French nation."___________________________________________
"...I changed by not changing at all..."0 -
paulonious wrote: »No science isn't a religion, but the belief system of science has so much resemblance with the belief systems of religions... We do not know that many facts, and science can overrule facts as it has done many times in the past. (Earth the center of the universe and the sun revolving around earth, a flat world, etc,) all those facts have been proven wrong, but why is it so challenging for us, to give in to the fact that we do by fare not know all there is, and do just belief most scientific theories. It is just an other belief, I do do BELIEF most scientific theories, but I'm a child of my time. I do NOT belief in a GOD, but I don't say that my beliefs are any better than someone elses. They are just different.
science doesn't resemble religion at all. one evolves with new information, the other does not.
I responded to this point above, but yeah...not true...lol. Religion absolutely evolves with time.
I haven't personally seen any edits to the bible recently. have you? I was referring to the texts that the teachings come from. but your condescension is appreciated.
Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall0 -
Haha, more of a challenge than a condescension. But take it as you want. I argue that it's not true. You can refer to texts but then say texts. "Religion" is an institution far greater than texts...paulonious wrote: »paulonious wrote: »No science isn't a religion, but the belief system of science has so much resemblance with the belief systems of religions... We do not know that many facts, and science can overrule facts as it has done many times in the past. (Earth the center of the universe and the sun revolving around earth, a flat world, etc,) all those facts have been proven wrong, but why is it so challenging for us, to give in to the fact that we do by fare not know all there is, and do just belief most scientific theories. It is just an other belief, I do do BELIEF most scientific theories, but I'm a child of my time. I do NOT belief in a GOD, but I don't say that my beliefs are any better than someone elses. They are just different.
science doesn't resemble religion at all. one evolves with new information, the other does not.
I responded to this point above, but yeah...not true...lol. Religion absolutely evolves with time.
I haven't personally seen any edits to the bible recently. have you? I was referring to the texts that the teachings come from. but your condescension is appreciated.
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I always look forward to Callens responses when the subject is religion.Cal,I bet you get fired up with a buzz on.:)0
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Hey Fuck,don't you think it's time we stop using the past injustices as an excuse( or reason) for actions happening today? I don't see how a bomb dropped in the first gulf war or land colonized 100 years ago translates ,explains and excuses the reasoning for an act of murder against non military civilian soft targets in today's society.0
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Haha, more of a challenge than a condescension. But take it as you want. I argue that it's not true. You can refer to texts but then say texts. "Religion" is an institution far greater than texts...paulonious wrote: »paulonious wrote: »No science isn't a religion, but the belief system of science has so much resemblance with the belief systems of religions... We do not know that many facts, and science can overrule facts as it has done many times in the past. (Earth the center of the universe and the sun revolving around earth, a flat world, etc,) all those facts have been proven wrong, but why is it so challenging for us, to give in to the fact that we do by fare not know all there is, and do just belief most scientific theories. It is just an other belief, I do do BELIEF most scientific theories, but I'm a child of my time. I do NOT belief in a GOD, but I don't say that my beliefs are any better than someone elses. They are just different.
science doesn't resemble religion at all. one evolves with new information, the other does not.
I responded to this point above, but yeah...not true...lol. Religion absolutely evolves with time.
I haven't personally seen any edits to the bible recently. have you? I was referring to the texts that the teachings come from. but your condescension is appreciated.
I thought it was obvious by saying "new information".
Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall0 -
Come on RR, you're smarter then that bro. You know DEEP down inside he's right. How can it NOT have ANYTHING to do with it? Have you not heard about what's happened in Iraq recently or in the last just couple of years with the rape stories of little boys by OUR servicemen? Have you not cared to see? Is last year to far in the past for it to have any reasoning to all of this? You're smarter then that man. Plz don't make me think otherwise.0
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rr what gets me fired up is not being able to quote. Ha.
>:)10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG0 -
Sure, why not? It’s extremely likely that those theories are correct, but I’d be surprised if they were 100% true. Gravity, for example. Did you see the movie Interstellar? It’s based on some fascinating (and rather recent) theories about how maybe gravity itself could be considered some kind of other dimension along with time and space. I recommend it. The movie does make a great job on explaining this theory to moviegoers.Certain aspects of science are questioned, sure, but can anyone reasonably question the idea of a black hole, gravity, evolution, or anything else in science that you insist are "theories"?
I would add black holes to this. Nobody knows for sure what they are. Even Stephen Hawking can’t seem to make up his mind on what they are and how they work. He does have some damn fine theories, though… and considering it’s the best explanation I’ve heard, I say it’s the most plausible one… Would I consider it a fact? Nope.
Whoever treats a theory as fact is wrong. Well, maybe not wrong, but they sure are taking a big leap of faith. Be it evolution, gravity, big foot or the flying spaghetti monster.It's funny that evolution is treated as both a "theory" and a "fact" whenever it is convenient to treat it as such.
Ironically, I think the only way a theory could become a fact is if god itself appeared one day and said: "Yeah, I created gravity and it works exactly like this...".
I will say though, that, considering all the evidence and logic, evolution is by far the soundest theory about the evolution of species we have... and most likely correct.
Yes! That is exactly how it must work… Until someone presents a better (supported by data) alternative to a theory (or at least disproves it with sound arguments), the person that questions should be laughed out of the room. If not, that’s when you end up with people trying to teach creationism in school…The fact is that most people who question these theories would be laughed out of the room. Why? Because unless you have another theory to present in its place, then you're just questioning for questioning's sake. So it's not enough for one to say, "Prove to us that Evolution exists beyond a doubt!" for us to reject evolution (i.e., the onus is not on you to PROVE that evolution exists beyond a doubt) but then this person will have to prove why evolution is also false (i.e., he/she will have to prove something that they don't believe to exist in the first place, doesn't exist) to actually get anyone credible to listen to them.People who accept science believe in things written hundreds of years ago (the theory of evolution was presented hundreds of years ago...) and accept it as gospel. Do you honestly believe someone will come along and prove that evolution is false? I think someone like you (as me) is highly doubtful of that...
No theory should be accepted as gospel. At least I don’t. And if those persons exist, they shouldn’t do that. Because when that happens, that’s when we stop seeing breakthroughs… That’s when the status quo is the norm. Can someone come along and prove evolution false? Sure, why not?! I agree, it’s HIGHLY unlikely. And until, and if, someone does… evolution is by far the best explanation we have.
Post edited by caifan82 onMexico City - July 17th 2003
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Mexico City - November 24th 20110 -
I have always said "believe as you wish" someday you will know the truth.
scince is great it's full of all kinds of interesting stuff,theory is what makes scince interesting and never ending.
Godfather.0 -
Do u mean science or since? I'm confused with your spelling and what u mean GF?0
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Gf. Goes back to believing as you wish but not at my expense.10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG0
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Come on RR, you're smarter then that bro. You know DEEP down inside he's right. How can it NOT have ANYTHING to do with it? Have you not heard about what's happened in Iraq recently or in the last just couple of years with the rape stories of little boys by OUR servicemen? Have you not cared to see? Is last year to far in the past for it to have any reasoning to all of this? You're smarter then that man. Plz don't make me think otherwise.
BB,I'm in no way dismissing then outrages that Muslims have had to endure through out time.Yes I know that these indiscretions have led to uprisings and actions of retaliation in the past.Some more then justifiable.Others not so much.
Muslims are also not the people that have had to endure such atrocities.Many other groups also can claim the same.But they are not calling for Jihad!
Any act of violence that is written off as justified or at least understood,as a response for passed injustices is a cope out.This same defending of the reasoning by supporters of your faith is actually in my opinion going to have a longer lasting adverse affect.Let me try to explain as there is a lot going on in my head and sometimes I don't do a great job of getting my point across in the proper way from head to keyboard.
First understand Nart,I consider you a friend on these here boards and wouldn't want to offend you or your faith in any way,not even a little.
I kinda look at it like this,and please feel free to correct me if needed.
Muslims are one of the largest religions in the world.Many countries claim to be Muslim countries and Muslim holy lands.Millions upon millions of people finding peace within their faith.Doing all the right things that good humans do.But there is a cancer amongst your ranks.Deep down a very small but growing subset is hijacking your faith,perverting it,using it for atrocities upon innocent children,women,gays,other religions,westerners or anyone who doesn't agree with their ultra conservative views.They(not the west) are the real enemy of Islam.They are the ones who are the infidels.It is these media loving thugs who are giving a black eye to your people.It cannot be up to the west to further intervene into stopping these crazies,that only makes it worse.Change has to come from within Islam.Imans and clerics must be at the forefront.Everyday Muslims must say enough!Give us back our good name.Muslim families be vocal about these kinds of people assimilating within their communities.
When you give understanding to the reason why they commit these acts you on a subconscience (or not) level are giving some form of silent support.It must be stopped from within.Nonexcuses can be made,No finger pointing can be cast at any other people or religion.You guys have a little house cleaning that is needed and only you can clean it right.
Maybe start with the backwards suppressive societies with Middle East that fuel hatred and bigotry.Hello Saudi Arabia.
this whole thing saddens me and I really worry that escalation and more divisive actions could be in our near future.I could see more violent acts,maybe on American soil and then the Muslim backlash and a McCarthy like situation with innocent everyday Muslims being the victims of fear.
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