The Psychological Case Against Materialism

brianlux

oftenreading wrote: »

brianlux wrote: »

oftenreading wrote: »

brianlux wrote: »

oftenreading wrote: »

Things to eat and drink are indeed good, as long as they are good quality things. Personally, I've always favoured giving experiences, not "stuff", especially to my loved ones. That includes concert tickets (of course!) and other performances, little trips, and once even a ride in a hot air balloon.

And Brian, great to hear it was a good year for book sales. One of my very best presents this Christmas was two books from my 15 year old daughter. She talked to 4 different people, friends and family, to get suggestions on what books she might consider and managed to find two I had not read but are perfect for me. The amount of effort she put into it really touched me.

Giving experiences. What a great concept! I've actually done something like that but never thought of it in those terms. Very nice!

And nice that you got books! How cool that your daughter went to such effort to make it good. One of the most enjoyable gifts I received this year was a copy of Henry Rollins' End to End; Two Thirteen Sixty One Vol. II. Not an easy find but my wife made it happen!

Yes. One of the two books was a collection of short stories by one of my favourite authors who unfortunately died too young earlier this year. I have pretty much all his novels - easily more than 15 - but didn't realize there was a collection of short fiction.

Definitely piqued my curiosity- who is this writer?

Another mostly good idea for gift giving is to make a donation in someones name to a charity you believe they would support. I majorly messed up on this once years ago. I had gotten married and didn't know one of my new in laws as well as I'd thought and made a donation in his name to an organization he not only didn't support, but one he actually hated. Oops! The other potential problem is finding an organization that is a good steward of the funds taken in. That can be tricky sometimes.

Iain Banks, a Scottish author who also wrote under the name Iain M. Banks. I first heard about him when I lived in Scotland in the early 1990s. He wrote both literary fiction and SF and many of his novels were set in Scotland, with a fantastic sense of place; reading them back in Canada years later always made me feel I was right back there. A vein of humour runs throughout all of his books, even the more serious ones.

I haven't read Banks- I'll check out some of his work. Bummer - 59, definitely too young :-(

riotgrl

paulonious wrote: »

This year I told my wife how sick of xmas I have become. We budget over $1000 per year to buying shit for people for no real reason other than to satisfy our own economy, as retail now depends on xmas revenue for their bottom line. And don't get me started on how much boxing day disgusts me with people lining up all night in the freezing cold to get a fucking tv or ipod. In the past several years, I had started liking xmas again because I have young kids. But then I started to notice the greed it can foster in my usually all-appreciative and very thankful 8 year old. I put off doing all my shopping until the 23rd, and it was a fucking miserable experience. I simply cannot wrap my head around the idea of people going into debt or even foresakingbtheir own life experience so they can get the best gifts for everybody. I think next year I am going to suggest no gifts at all for our family (maybe a couple for the kids), and we all go on a trip south instead. It just makes absolutely zero sense, especially for my wife and I, to budget our money to spend on things we seriously do not need. For example, as a joke, she bought me a Stress Paul (my name is Paul). I said, "how much was this?". She wasn't sure. She checked. $13. 13 fucking dollars for something that will just end up in the trash. Commercialism at its worst. She agreedvwith me. So we returned it, and I may get something else, I just might not. But if I do, it will be a book or something.
My 16 year old nephew this year said he wanted "life experiences with family", no material gifts. It was his own idea. Now that is the spirit of xmas.

A couple of years ago we instituted the Christmas rule: something they want, something they need, something to wear, something to read. Each of my kids gets 4 gifts (from us or Santa) and it has been very nice. Our kids barely miss the overly elaborate gift giving at Christmas and appreciate what they are given. Now what the grandparents do is another story.....

riotgrl

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote: »

It's funny. I was teaching Thoreau's Walden to my students a few weeks ago. I know Thoreau may or may not have been a bit of a hypocrite, getting his mother to fold his underpants once a week while he was preaching about the transcendental existence he was supposed to be living, but he did in some ways anticipate what Kasser's saying, here. Could you be happier making your own shoes, planting your own beans, and living at least a couple of miles off the grid?

I love this! One of the classes I teach examines the idea of being more self-sufficient. It is amazing how many kids (and their families) try to plant their own food/raise their own food here in the urban area that I live. They often feel outside the norm until we start to examine how tenuous our existence is inside the 'grid'. It definitely elicits interesting discussions in terms of being self-sufficient vs. trying to fit in with the current food system/urban system.

oftenreading

brianlux wrote: »

oftenreading wrote: »

brianlux wrote: »

oftenreading wrote: »

brianlux wrote: »

oftenreading wrote: »

Things to eat and drink are indeed good, as long as they are good quality things. Personally, I've always favoured giving experiences, not "stuff", especially to my loved ones. That includes concert tickets (of course!) and other performances, little trips, and once even a ride in a hot air balloon.

And Brian, great to hear it was a good year for book sales. One of my very best presents this Christmas was two books from my 15 year old daughter. She talked to 4 different people, friends and family, to get suggestions on what books she might consider and managed to find two I had not read but are perfect for me. The amount of effort she put into it really touched me.

Giving experiences. What a great concept! I've actually done something like that but never thought of it in those terms. Very nice!

And nice that you got books! How cool that your daughter went to such effort to make it good. One of the most enjoyable gifts I received this year was a copy of Henry Rollins' End to End; Two Thirteen Sixty One Vol. II. Not an easy find but my wife made it happen!

Yes. One of the two books was a collection of short stories by one of my favourite authors who unfortunately died too young earlier this year. I have pretty much all his novels - easily more than 15 - but didn't realize there was a collection of short fiction.

Definitely piqued my curiosity- who is this writer?

Another mostly good idea for gift giving is to make a donation in someones name to a charity you believe they would support. I majorly messed up on this once years ago. I had gotten married and didn't know one of my new in laws as well as I'd thought and made a donation in his name to an organization he not only didn't support, but one he actually hated. Oops! The other potential problem is finding an organization that is a good steward of the funds taken in. That can be tricky sometimes.

Iain Banks, a Scottish author who also wrote under the name Iain M. Banks. I first heard about him when I lived in Scotland in the early 1990s. He wrote both literary fiction and SF and many of his novels were set in Scotland, with a fantastic sense of place; reading them back in Canada years later always made me feel I was right back there. A vein of humour runs throughout all of his books, even the more serious ones.

I haven't read Banks- I'll check out some of his work. Bummer - 59, definitely too young :-(

I hope you do decide to check out some of Banks' work, Brian. If you do, don't start with The Wasp Factory. His first novel, it catapulted him onto the British literary scene; it was designed to be shocking, and it is. However, it doesn't represent his work. Some of my favourites are Espedair Street (told from the point of view of the bass guitarist of a fictional rock band that goes from obscurity to super-stardom), The Crow Road, and Whit. On the SF side, Consider Phlebas is probably the one to start with.

brianlux

Thanks, Oftenreading. Espedair Street sounds like my cup of tea!

HughFreakingDillon

riotgrl wrote: »

A couple of years ago we instituted the Christmas rule: something they want, something they need, something to wear, something to read. Each of my kids gets 4 gifts (from us or Santa) and it has been very nice. Our kids barely miss the overly elaborate gift giving at Christmas and appreciate what they are given. Now what the grandparents do is another story.....

that's fantastic!

backseatLover12

What an awesome discussion, probably the best I've seen on here. I especially like your idea riotgrl, the Christmas rule, and must remember it for next year!

I have quite a materialistic family - 3 sisters who love to shop and buy the rest of us adults gifts. One sister and I have had a few arguments about it just this year, and all three of them refuse to see my point of not being interested in making Christmas, Giftmas. To me, it's a children's holiday for receiving gifts, us adults don't need the unnecessary stress of buying the others stuff. But attempting to reason with a greedy family proves unfruitful. I did not - and won't - buy my sisters gifts and told them this months ago. They don't care, it's that love of STUFF and Shopping that trumps the holiday for them. I just choose not to participate, and give the crap they give me away to a needy family. Years ago I bought each one a gift certificate to give to the charity of their choice. And they actually threw the certificates in the garbage. What to do with these people?

rgambs

So many people out there who shop for fun. And I am like WTF mate?! Shopping is a thing I do reluctantly when I have already needed something badly for many months. I don't get how spending money on trinkets and baubles is entertainment to so many millions of people.

HughFreakingDillon

backseatLover12 wrote: »

What an awesome discussion, probably the best I've seen on here. I especially like your idea riotgrl, the Christmas rule, and must remember it for next year!

I have quite a materialistic family - 3 sisters who love to shop and buy the rest of us adults gifts. One sister and I have had a few arguments about it just this year, and all three of them refuse to see my point of not being interested in making Christmas, Giftmas. To me, it's a children's holiday for receiving gifts, us adults don't need the unnecessary stress of buying the others stuff. But attempting to reason with a greedy family proves unfruitful. I did not - and won't - buy my sisters gifts and told them this months ago. They don't care, it's that love of STUFF and Shopping that trumps the holiday for them. I just choose not to participate, and give the crap they give me away to a needy family. Years ago I bought each one a gift certificate to give to the charity of their choice. And they actually threw the certificates in the garbage. What to do with these people?

Dear god, I thought my sister was bad. That is disgusting!

I just don't even find the point in even celebrating it at all. I mean, I want my kids to grow up normal, and not have to defend their crazy dad who hates xmas to their friends, but at the same time, what the fuck am I really teaching them by participating in this materialistic charade? My wife is catholic, so there's the baby jesus side of things, but let's be real here, 99% of xmas has nothing to do with god for 98% of people, christians included. My wife's family is deeply religious (she has several nun aunts), but besides going to mass xmas eve (which most christians do out of obligation, not joy) that's pretty much it. Then gifts and drink and food.

But how do you stop the xmas machine and still raise normal kids? Lol!

Go Beavers

While consuming less is one thing, the greater challenge is the part in the op that says people want to feel "free, competent, and connected". If you're able to free yourself from possessions, then the reduction in consuming follows. You have to look at how possessions can create stress and lead to disconnect from others. I think of cars as one of the main culprits of this. People probably spend $150 to $700 a month on their car and some talk about how their life comes to a stand still if their car doesn't start. Not to mention the stress related to traffic and that you give up much of your actual freedom for the perceived gain in freedom the car gives. Also, being able to put down the phone and be in the moment takes practice. Essentially a lot of the possessions are there to take us away from the present moment or avoid something uncomfortable. Practicing being present and not avoiding can also bring that detachment from possessions and greater freedom.

riotgrl

Go Beavers wrote: »

While consuming less is one thing, the greater challenge is the part in the op that says people want to feel "free, competent, and connected". If you're able to free yourself from possessions, then the reduction in consuming follows. You have to look at how possessions can create stress and lead to disconnect from others. I think of cars as one of the main culprits of this. People probably spend $150 to $700 a month on their car and some talk about how their life comes to a stand still if their car doesn't start. Not to mention the stress related to traffic and that you give up much of your actual freedom for the perceived gain in freedom the car gives. Also, being able to put down the phone and be in the moment takes practice. Essentially a lot of the possessions are there to take us away from the present moment or avoid something uncomfortable. Practicing being present and not avoiding can also bring that detachment from possessions and greater freedom.

^^^This. I hate cars. I wish I could get rid of my car. It is a hassle, a burden, nothing enjoyable. Unfortunately, I live in a city with pathetic public transportation and it isn't feasible to use it unless you have to. I am trying to move to a better spot in the city so I can utilize walking and biking more often. Your comment is spot on about materialism and disconnect from others. The loss of community is great in this world :(

backseatLover12

Go Beavers wrote: »

While consuming less is one thing, the greater challenge is the part in the op that says people want to feel "free, competent, and connected". If you're able to free yourself from possessions, then the reduction in consuming follows. You have to look at how possessions can create stress and lead to disconnect from others. I think of cars as one of the main culprits of this. People probably spend $150 to $700 a month on their car and some talk about how their life comes to a stand still if their car doesn't start. Not to mention the stress related to traffic and that you give up much of your actual freedom for the perceived gain in freedom the car gives. Also, being able to put down the phone and be in the moment takes practice. Essentially a lot of the possessions are there to take us away from the present moment or avoid something uncomfortable. Practicing being present and not avoiding can also bring that detachment from possessions and greater freedom.

I live in a rural area, so sadly the car is a must for me. Would prefer to be able to walk but not here. I like to take on the cell phone debate, I still have a "dumb" phone, and tend to rather leave it wherever it lands, and ignore it when it rings. (I know, no one tends to do this) I like to tell people that I preferred it when people had a tough time finding me and cell phones weren't around yet. It was a freer world when finding a pay phone was the only way to call people when away from home.

PJ_Soul

Being car free is amazing. The longer I live that way the better it feels (but yeah, it takes real planning, starting with where you are going to live in relation to work and all other amenities. You can't just let go of your car one day and say yay. You have to look ahead years and years and base major life decisions partly on your plan to go without a car).... Anyway, as someone who has done this, it's curious to see that most people still think of it as a complete oddity, and something they can't imagine because they appear to be addicted to their cars, so sometimes I find myself trying to justify something that I am actually proud of. And then I wonder why in the hell I feel like I have to do that. I can never find an answer. I guess it's just hard to be different sometimes.

I think a lot of what everyone has been talking about comes down to how we are perceived by others. Maybe the best thing to do is let go of caring about what other people think of our own choices - and the rest comes a lot more easily.

brianlux

"I'm in love with shopping city dreams."
-Richard Butler, Psychedelic Furs

One of my favorite lines of sarcasm and a great song, "We Love You"

DriftingByTheStorm

Ironic title and bit written by a guy who in all probability was a materialist himself. [ i love carlin though, saw him live twice]

Funny how materialists always use the word "materialist" only as a materialist would use it. That is to say, they misuse it. In a world of duality between spirit and matter, the Materialist remains so stubbornly blind to the former, that his obsession with the later causes him to use the term "materialism" itself only to refer to the one aspect of the term, "someone who values material things". When the actual definition is , "someone who values material things as more important than spiritual values." The blindness is so pervasive, they actually fail to see what they reject in the word's definition itself.

The better, and more classical definition of Materialism is actually:
"the doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications."

And that doctrine is actually shown by Einstein's theory alone to be so utterly out of touch with reality as to border on absurd.

Jason P

I have the urge to watch old Madonna videos for some reason ...

brianlux

Jason P wrote: »

I have the urge to watch old Madonna videos for some reason ...

Radical!

HughFreakingDillon

I want more and more to have less and less. But my god do these THINGS have some ridiculous POWER!!! I want to purge it all!

backseatLover12

www.becomingminimalist.com

brianlux

paulonious wrote: »

I want more and more to have less and less. But my god do these THINGS have some ridiculous POWER!!! I want to purge it all!

Book, records- yikes! Haha!

Actually, overall we've been paring down around here this last year or so and it's a good feeling to do so. I even let a guitar go this year and even that felt kind of good. But I don't feel bad about having things that are durable and will last a long time (a few good tools vs a lot of cheap crappy tools for example), and books and records are just things that are passing through my life for a while. They will end up in others' libraries some day.