Racism without Racists.

Last-12-Exit

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/26/us/ferguson-racism-or-racial-bias/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Studies are suggesting that people can be racists even though they're not a racist person. That every white person has a racial bias weather they are consciously aware of it or not. That white people that say things like "I don't see color" and "I have black friends" are actually subconsciously racist.

I personally think that this is a load of shit. But I guess if I say that, I'm a racist.

rgambs

Last-12-Exit said:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/26/us/ferguson-racism-or-racial-bias/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Studies are suggesting that people can be racists even though they're not a racist person. That every white person has a racial bias weather they are consciously aware of it or not. That white people that say things like "I don't see color" and "I have black friends" are actually subconsciously racist.

I personally think that this is a load of shit. But I guess if I say that, I'm a racist.

If you read the article you posted you must have seen that the studies showed all races to be biased and not just whites. If you read the article you posted you must have seen that those phrases were only examples used to illustrate that all people have bias and those who deny their bias are feeding into a system of subtle racism, wherein denying the existence of racism allows it to continue.
Since it is your thread, perhaps you'd like to elaborate on what about you find to be shit?? Is it the studies or the conclusions drawn from the studies?

Last-12-Exit

One of the biggest problems I had with the article is "for anyone who claims to not see race: they're deluding themselves....Research shows that babies as young as 3 months old prefer to be around people of their own race."

First of all, it is my understanding that racism is taught. Nobody is born a racist. It really sounds to me like these researchers are looking for a way to blame racism on everything that is bad in the world. I find that to be a big crock of shit.

Second, I don't know if I am just not understanding this knife experiment or if I'm reading it wrong. It say that 2 pictures were shown to people. One picture was of two white men fighting. One had a knife and one was unarmed. Then they showed a second picture of a white man holding a knife fighting an unarmed black man. When they asked people to identify the man who was armed in both pictures. In the first picture, they most people picked the right one and in the second, most people (black and white) incorrectly picked the black man. I guess it wasn't obvious who had the knife, but I don't seem to understand why that's racist. Call me ignorant, fine.

Third, it's bullshit for a researcher to say that I (or anyone else) am racist because "I don't see color." To say we are all subconsciously racist is absurd. Doreen Loury said in the article that when some whites talk about racism, they think its only personal. I completely disagree with that. How can I, as a white person, talk about racism and make it personal? I have never been the targetof racism. Ever. I'd be willing to bet that most white people have ever been the target of racism. So what does that even mean? Again, call me ignorant. It doesn't make sense to me.

In all, it sounds like this article is looking for ways to make everybody a racist.

callen

Believe we naturally (evolution) gravitate to similar looking humans and it is what it is. It's not taught but can be heightened by environment. Some are more sensitive to this "pack like" behavior and many then discriminate. Media, politicians (NRA Republicans) corporations (glock) and others use this natural drive to their advantage. Like to flair it up. $$$$$ and control of the herd.

oftenreading

As the article suggest, there is a fair amount of research that strongly suggests humans are innately drawn to people who look like them and are exquisitely sensitive to differences. This is easy to see if you spend any time around small children. What happens with those innate tendencies does indeed depend largely on how that person is raised.

I don't think the article was suggesting that because someone says they "don't see color" that they are racist; rather, it was saying (or should have been saying) that we all have inherent biases and the problems increase when we deny that those exist, rather than trying to recognize when we are being affected by them. It's like with advertising - people in general have a hard time admitting that they are influenced by advertising, even though there are mountains of research to show this is so.

Part of the problem with the article is that it doesn't present research findings particularly well, but that is common with most media reporting of research.

rgambs

I didn't see the article as looking for ways to make everybody a racist at all. I saw it as a way to explore racial bias and the effect it has on systems of racism.
Regarding the babies, and the subject as a whole, you have to separate natural racial bias from racism as it's played out on a societal basis. When people effectively deny the existence of racial bias there is no way to fight against it and work to correct it, which is why the "I don't see color" idea has been fought since it popped up.
Regarding the second point, the problem is not that the picture is confusing or unclear, but that people's bias does not allow them to see it properly, just like the people who incorrectly read the graph on Obama job creation because of their preexisting bias.
On the third point, at no point does the article say you are racist because you see no color. You are taking a complicated, nuanced discussion and boiling it down to a talking point by equating racial bias to overt racism. To say we are all subconsciously racially biased is not absurd at all, as it has been proven time and time again by studies like the ones referenced.
From the article.."When some whites talk about racism, they think it's only personal -- what one person says or does to another." Meaning personal interactions, that you have been the target of racism or perpetrated racism in your interactions with another person. It means that we must " understand that it is a system of advantage based on race," and not just the way an individual treats another individual.

PJfanwillneverleave1

rgambs said:

I didn't see the article as looking for ways to make everybody a racist at all. I saw it as a way to explore racial bias and the effect it has on systems of racism.
Regarding the babies, and the subject as a whole, you have to separate natural racial bias from racism as it's played out on a societal basis. When people effectively deny the existence of racial bias there is no way to fight against it and work to correct it, which is why the "I don't see color" idea has been fought since it popped up.
Regarding the second point, the problem is not that the picture is confusing or unclear, but that people's bias does not allow them to see it properly, just like the people who incorrectly read the graph on Obama job creation because of their preexisting bias.
On the third point, at no point does the article say you are racist because you see no color. You are taking a complicated, nuanced discussion and boiling it down to a talking point by equating racial bias to overt racism. To say we are all subconsciously racially biased is not absurd at all, as it has been proven time and time again by studies like the ones referenced.
From the article.."When some whites talk about racism, they think it's only personal -- what one person says or does to another." Meaning personal interactions, that you have been the target of racism or perpetrated racism in your interactions with another person. It means that we must " understand that it is a system of advantage based on race," and not just the way an individual treats another individual.

It's nice living and not seeing colour.

rgambs

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

rgambs said:

I didn't see the article as looking for ways to make everybody a racist at all. I saw it as a way to explore racial bias and the effect it has on systems of racism.
Regarding the babies, and the subject as a whole, you have to separate natural racial bias from racism as it's played out on a societal basis. When people effectively deny the existence of racial bias there is no way to fight against it and work to correct it, which is why the "I don't see color" idea has been fought since it popped up.
Regarding the second point, the problem is not that the picture is confusing or unclear, but that people's bias does not allow them to see it properly, just like the people who incorrectly read the graph on Obama job creation because of their preexisting bias.
On the third point, at no point does the article say you are racist because you see no color. You are taking a complicated, nuanced discussion and boiling it down to a talking point by equating racial bias to overt racism. To say we are all subconsciously racially biased is not absurd at all, as it has been proven time and time again by studies like the ones referenced.
From the article.."When some whites talk about racism, they think it's only personal -- what one person says or does to another." Meaning personal interactions, that you have been the target of racism or perpetrated racism in your interactions with another person. It means that we must " understand that it is a system of advantage based on race," and not just the way an individual treats another individual.

It's nice living and not seeing colour.

I don't know what you mean by this at all, please elaborate.

PJfanwillneverleave1

rgambs said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

rgambs said:

I didn't see the article as looking for ways to make everybody a racist at all. I saw it as a way to explore racial bias and the effect it has on systems of racism.
Regarding the babies, and the subject as a whole, you have to separate natural racial bias from racism as it's played out on a societal basis. When people effectively deny the existence of racial bias there is no way to fight against it and work to correct it, which is why the "I don't see color" idea has been fought since it popped up.
Regarding the second point, the problem is not that the picture is confusing or unclear, but that people's bias does not allow them to see it properly, just like the people who incorrectly read the graph on Obama job creation because of their preexisting bias.
On the third point, at no point does the article say you are racist because you see no color. You are taking a complicated, nuanced discussion and boiling it down to a talking point by equating racial bias to overt racism. To say we are all subconsciously racially biased is not absurd at all, as it has been proven time and time again by studies like the ones referenced.
From the article.."When some whites talk about racism, they think it's only personal -- what one person says or does to another." Meaning personal interactions, that you have been the target of racism or perpetrated racism in your interactions with another person. It means that we must " understand that it is a system of advantage based on race," and not just the way an individual treats another individual.

It's nice living and not seeing colour.

I don't know what you mean by this at all, please elaborate.

No elaboration necessary. Racism is bullshit. We are all people.

brianlux

Back in my college day ( you know, around the time of Calvin Coolidge) I had a good friend who once said (basically), "I don't care if a person is black, white, yellow, red, brown or anything else- an asshole is an asshole." I always thought that made sense but if I agree with that does it mean that I'm an asshole? Does it mean I'm biased against assholes? Haha!

But seriously, it's like this:

"We judge individual man and women as we do nations and races -- by the character of their achievement and by their achievement of character." -- Edward Abbey

rgambs

brianlux said:

Back in my college day ( you know, around the time of Calvin Coolidge) I had a good friend who once said (basically), "I don't care if a person is black, white, yellow, red, brown or anything else- an asshole is an asshole." I always thought that made sense but if I agree with that does it mean that I'm an asshole? Does it mean I'm biased against assholes? Haha!

But seriously, it's like this:

"We judge individual man and women as we do nations and races -- by the character of their achievement and by their achievement of character." -- Edward Abbey

It's a good quote, but scientific studies have shown it is much more complicated than that for most, if not all, people.

catefrances

I remember being in class one day and my politics teacher made an off the cuff remark that we're all a little racist and I remember being offended by that.

benjs

rgambs said:

brianlux said:

Back in my college day ( you know, around the time of Calvin Coolidge) I had a good friend who once said (basically), "I don't care if a person is black, white, yellow, red, brown or anything else- an asshole is an asshole." I always thought that made sense but if I agree with that does it mean that I'm an asshole? Does it mean I'm biased against assholes? Haha!

But seriously, it's like this:

"We judge individual man and women as we do nations and races -- by the character of their achievement and by their achievement of character." -- Edward Abbey

It's a good quote, but scientific studies have shown it is much more complicated than that for most, if not all, people.

This is why I've tried my best to avoid pictures of either Wilson or Brown on the Ferguson shooting topic. Obviously I know that Wilson is white, and Brown is black, but that's it. As someone who struggles with depression, I understand all too well that there are some links or judgments, even in your own mind, that are beyond your own control.

rgambs

benjs said:

rgambs said:

brianlux said:

Back in my college day ( you know, around the time of Calvin Coolidge) I had a good friend who once said (basically), "I don't care if a person is black, white, yellow, red, brown or anything else- an asshole is an asshole." I always thought that made sense but if I agree with that does it mean that I'm an asshole? Does it mean I'm biased against assholes? Haha!

But seriously, it's like this:

"We judge individual man and women as we do nations and races -- by the character of their achievement and by their achievement of character." -- Edward Abbey

It's a good quote, but scientific studies have shown it is much more complicated than that for most, if not all, people.

This is why I've tried my best to avoid pictures of either Wilson or Brown on the Ferguson shooting topic. Obviously I know that Wilson is white, and Brown is black, but that's it. As someone who struggles with depression, I understand all too well that there are some links or judgments, even in your own mind, that are beyond your own control.

Too true, and I took the point of the article to be that recognizing this and owning is the first step to correcting it.

benjs

rgambs said:

benjs said:

rgambs said:

brianlux said:

Back in my college day ( you know, around the time of Calvin Coolidge) I had a good friend who once said (basically), "I don't care if a person is black, white, yellow, red, brown or anything else- an asshole is an asshole." I always thought that made sense but if I agree with that does it mean that I'm an asshole? Does it mean I'm biased against assholes? Haha!

But seriously, it's like this:

"We judge individual man and women as we do nations and races -- by the character of their achievement and by their achievement of character." -- Edward Abbey

It's a good quote, but scientific studies have shown it is much more complicated than that for most, if not all, people.

This is why I've tried my best to avoid pictures of either Wilson or Brown on the Ferguson shooting topic. Obviously I know that Wilson is white, and Brown is black, but that's it. As someone who struggles with depression, I understand all too well that there are some links or judgments, even in your own mind, that are beyond your own control.

Too true, and I took the point of the article to be that recognizing this and owning is the first step to correcting it.

I'm not going to lie... I'm deathly afraid of black....
















hatted Orthodox Jews who roam in my neighbourhood. Driving through is terrifying, they're so convinced their god will protect them that they walk wherever the hell they want!

hedonist

I don't know that I'd call myself racist but I do have biases; I make judgments all the time...nature of the beast, I believe.

And, I do see color. How can I not? But to judge based on that?

Character, their energy, how they treat others - hell, how they drive! Among other things.

benjs, when I was a kid we lived in an area with many Orthodox Jews, though they always walked in groups on the sidewalk. I remember asking my dad, "why is that one guy wearing a floor-buffer on his head?"

rr165892

brianlux said:

Back in my college day ( you know, around the time of Calvin Coolidge) I had a good friend who once said (basically), "I don't care if a person is black, white, yellow, red, brown or anything else- an asshole is an asshole." I always thought that made sense but if I agree with that does it mean that I'm an asshole? Does it mean I'm biased against assholes? Haha!

But seriously, it's like this:

"We judge individual man and women as we do nations and races -- by the character of their achievement and by their achievement of character." -- Edward Abbey

I subscribe to this same way of thinking

rgambs

rr165892 said:

brianlux said:

Back in my college day ( you know, around the time of Calvin Coolidge) I had a good friend who once said (basically), "I don't care if a person is black, white, yellow, red, brown or anything else- an asshole is an asshole." I always thought that made sense but if I agree with that does it mean that I'm an asshole? Does it mean I'm biased against assholes? Haha!

But seriously, it's like this:

"We judge individual man and women as we do nations and races -- by the character of their achievement and by their achievement of character." -- Edward Abbey

I subscribe to this same way of thinking

I think all of us on the boards do!

rr165892

Is it fair to also say that we are all guilty of a bit of pre conceived biased on a sub conscience level ? Certain stereotypes invade our thought process wether we want them to or not.Its just human nature and observation.I think how we process those signals and our reaction to them is what makes us a Rascist or not.The differences in people and ethnicities is there and right out front.The same things people embrace and hold dear and celebrate as common actions or traits in what makes them ethnically diverse ,others may find as something to exploit or make fun of.
I hope that made sense.there is a line of thought I'm trying to vocalize and I'm not sure how well it's getting from my brain to the keyboard.sorry

rgambs

rr165892 said:

Is it fair to also say that we are all guilty of a bit of pre conceived biased on a sub conscience level ? Certain stereotypes invade our thought process wether we want them to or not.Its just human nature and observation.I think how we process those signals and our reaction to them is what makes us a Rascist or not.The differences in people and ethnicities is there and right out front.The same things people embrace and hold dear and celebrate as common actions or traits in what makes them ethnically diverse ,others may find as something to exploit or make fun of.
I hope that made sense.there is a line of thought I'm trying to vocalize and I'm not sure how well it's getting from my brain to the keyboard.sorry

Sounds sound to me!

arq

We all see colors, but how we decide to conduct ourselves is what matters.

hedonist

arq said:

We all see colors, but how we decide to conduct ourselves is what matters.

This, in a nice nutshell.

Godfather.

dude really ? this thread will have no end and until the end of days racisim will be in just about every man of every color, it's a shame but it's true.

Godfather.

benjs

Godfather. said:

dude really ? this thread will have no end and until the end of days racisim will be in just about every man of every color, it's a shame but it's true.

Godfather.

It's good that you recognize it, but in that recognition, it suggests that you're not the kind of person this study is aimed at. In addition to the OP, I'm sure that there are others here who would absolutely fight the notion that they are innately or subconsciously discriminatory. I personally find that train of thought to be naive, as it both diminishes the complexity of one's brain, as well as negates the power of subconscious influence.

Last-12-Exit

benjs said:

Godfather. said:

dude really ? this thread will have no end and until the end of days racisim will be in just about every man of every color, it's a shame but it's true.

Godfather.

It's good that you recognize it, but in that recognition, it suggests that you're not the kind of person this study is aimed at. In addition to the OP, I'm sure that there are others here who would absolutely fight the notion that they are innately or subconsciously discriminatory. I personally find that train of thought to be naive, as it both diminishes the complexity of one's brain, as well as negates the power of subconscious influence.

Then call me naive. I'll not arguing that I don't judge people I don't know, I'm arguing that I do it based on color. To suggest that I do based on a study seems silly.

benjs

Last-12-Exit said:

benjs said:

Godfather. said:

dude really ? this thread will have no end and until the end of days racisim will be in just about every man of every color, it's a shame but it's true.

Godfather.

It's good that you recognize it, but in that recognition, it suggests that you're not the kind of person this study is aimed at. In addition to the OP, I'm sure that there are others here who would absolutely fight the notion that they are innately or subconsciously discriminatory. I personally find that train of thought to be naive, as it both diminishes the complexity of one's brain, as well as negates the power of subconscious influence.

Then call me naive. I'll not arguing that I don't judge people I don't know, I'm arguing that I do it based on color. To suggest that I do based on a study seems silly.

I'm suggesting that you, me, or anyone else here, are all going to exhibit some form of prejudice inherently, and that it's beyond our control. I didn't mean to offend with what I said, but I stand by what I said: there are nuances in how our thought processes work that we simply don't understand, and we make complex mental computations without thinking about them on a regular basis. Even eyesight: our eyes capture upside-down, and our brain determines it should be flipped.

I'm not really sure I understand your last two sentences... The study is arguing that people innately judge based on differences. You just stated that you judge people based on differences. Therefore, would you not fall within the same category as the study sample? :-?

To me, all this discussion about "I don't see colour" doesn't make much sense. Why should we have to think of all people as equal: why can we not embrace and celebrate our differences instead of pretending they don't exist? In fact, if our subconscious minds are jumping to conclusions, maybe to practice this way of appreciating differences can actually serve to combat our innate racism.

Stickman12

This seems less about being racist and more about prejudice. I think everyone either consciously or subconsciously pre-judges a person or group. You look at someone in a suit differently that someone wearing a wife beater and shorts that hang off their ass.

Jason P

The human mind is constantly profiling and judging whether we accept it or not.

callen

Jason P said:

The human mind is constantly profiling and judging whether we accept it or not.

Absolutely and every real encounter then affects future thoughts. So if one just watches Fox and all the thuggery they stray from true experiences of interactions with normal non-whites. And vice versa. Turn off the TV.

Bennyorr4

I think some people confuse or correlate racism with hate. I don't think one needs to hate to be racist. What I mean to say is, all humans are racist to some extent. Even reverse racism is racism. I for one admit to being racist. That doesn't mean I hate any particular race (I do NOT), it just means that I see in colour. Do I personally treat different people differently? NO! I treat everyone with respect, until such time that they disrespect me. Whether they are the same race as me or not. Just to clarify; I love all people regardless of how they look but if a person crosses me I love them a little less.


Additionally: I am a white male and if hate enters into the equation, then I would say that I hate haters. Is that wrong?


Am I one of those "haters" that I hate because I hate the haters? ) >-

brianlux

Bennyorr4 said:

I think some people confuse or correlate racism with hate. I don't think one needs to hate to be racist. What I mean to say is, all humans are racist to some extent. Even reverse racism is racism. I for one admit to being racist. That doesn't mean I hate any particular race (I do NOT), it just means that I see in colour. Do I personally treat different people differently? NO! I treat everyone with respect, until such time that they disrespect me. Whether they are the same race as me or not. Just to clarify; I love all people regardless of how they look but if a person crosses me I love them a little less.


Additionally: I am a white male and if hate enters into the equation, then I would say that I hate haters. Is that wrong?


Am I one of those "haters" that I hate because I hate the haters? ) >-

I guess it depends on what definition you go by. If we were to agree on the Webster's definition (as follows) I would not be in a hurry to say "I'm a racist".

rac·ism, noun:

: poor treatment of or violence against people because of their race

: the belief that some races of people are better than others