Tough Questions on Veteran's Day

Drowned Out

Godfather. said:

rgambs said:

Godfather. said:

rgambs do you live in California ?

Godfather.

Couldnt be much more wrong. Rural Ohio, near Amish country... You guys do realize that there are plenty of conservatives in California and Canada right?

California is full of .......well never mind, in 1 to 2 years I will be out of california it's time for a change.

Godfather.

Lemme guess....Florida?

As usual, I like what you have to say in this thread, rgambs. I think it's important to discourage people from joining the military. Unfortunately, your government (both parties) seem content to let it become one of very few career options available to the less fortunate. Also, considering their age when they make this decision, I don't hold them entirely accountable. It's a choice I would never have made, but at that age, it would have had nothing to do with knowledge of the MIC or politics...plus, I can admit to making a lot of regrettable decisions at that age...I think my feelings toward the military are along the lines of my feelings toward police. I view the organizations as a whole with scepticism bordering on contempt...but would never judge an individual in those organizations based on my feelings toward the whole. That goes both ways - in judgement of heroes, and thugs. Everyone has their own story to tell and path followed to where they're at...

As one of those typical asshole, peace loving Canadians, who has travelled somewhat extensively in the states, I've noticed one thing for sure: many many Americans don't realize, or don't see a problem with the level of nationalist indoctrination they're subjected to, nor how militarized the country is. It's shocking for an outsider (at least a Canadian one) to see this. I visited a mall food court in Orlando in which half the patrons were uniformed servicemen...freaked me out. I see so many ads for the military, in all forms of media...endless tributes at sporting events... flags everywhere...homeless veterans on every second street corner...airports filled with uniforms and 25 year old amputees...it's fucked up.
I really wish more people would question the wisdom of joining our military instead of unflinchingly supporting, even glorifying them.

mickeyrat

Drowned, Orlando is home to a navy boot camp base. In uniform is a requirement while on liberty. Likely had just graduated but not gotten final orders as yet

badbrains

https://twitter.com/medialens/status/532108489121071104

badbrains

^^^^^pretty powerful stuff!

benjs

badbrains said:

^^^^^pretty powerful stuff!

Even more so... Harry Patch words, Radiohead music.

I am the only one that got through
The others died where ever they fell
It was an ambush
They came up from all sides
Give your leaders each a gun and then let them fight it out themselves
I’ve seen devils coming up from the ground
I’ve seen hell upon this earth
The next will be chemical but they will never learn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ2ELVsz2Yk&spfreload=10

badbrains

benjs said:

badbrains said:

^^^^^pretty powerful stuff!

Even more so... Harry Patch words, Radiohead music.

I am the only one that got through
The others died where ever they fell
It was an ambush
They came up from all sides
Give your leaders each a gun and then let them fight it out themselves
I’ve seen devils coming up from the ground
I’ve seen hell upon this earth
The next will be chemical but they will never learn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ2ELVsz2Yk&spfreload=10

That's wild Ben, I didn't even know a song was written about/for him? First time I ever heard of this guy.

benjs

badbrains said:

benjs said:

badbrains said:

^^^^^pretty powerful stuff!

Even more so... Harry Patch words, Radiohead music.

I am the only one that got through
The others died where ever they fell
It was an ambush
They came up from all sides
Give your leaders each a gun and then let them fight it out themselves
I’ve seen devils coming up from the ground
I’ve seen hell upon this earth
The next will be chemical but they will never learn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ2ELVsz2Yk&spfreload=10

That's wild Ben, I didn't even know a song was written about/for him? First time I ever heard of this guy.

Radiohead released it shortly after Mr. Patch died several years ago, and all proceeds were given to the Royal British Legion. The words were taken from one of Harry Patch's interviews, and the song gets to me every single time I hear it.

rgambs

Drowned Out said:

Godfather. said:

rgambs said:

Godfather. said:

rgambs do you live in California ?

Godfather.

Couldnt be much more wrong. Rural Ohio, near Amish country... You guys do realize that there are plenty of conservatives in California and Canada right?

California is full of .......well never mind, in 1 to 2 years I will be out of california it's time for a change.

Godfather.

Lemme guess....Florida?

As usual, I like what you have to say in this thread, rgambs. I think it's important to discourage people from joining the military. Unfortunately, your government (both parties) seem content to let it become one of very few career options available to the less fortunate. Also, considering their age when they make this decision, I don't hold them entirely accountable. It's a choice I would never have made, but at that age, it would have had nothing to do with knowledge of the MIC or politics...plus, I can admit to making a lot of regrettable decisions at that age...I think my feelings toward the military are along the lines of my feelings toward police. I view the organizations as a whole with scepticism bordering on contempt...but would never judge an individual in those organizations based on my feelings toward the whole. That goes both ways - in judgement of heroes, and thugs. Everyone has their own story to tell and path followed to where they're at...

As one of those typical asshole, peace loving Canadians, who has travelled somewhat extensively in the states, I've noticed one thing for sure: many many Americans don't realize, or don't see a problem with the level of nationalist indoctrination they're subjected to, nor how militarized the country is. It's shocking for an outsider (at least a Canadian one) to see this. I visited a mall food court in Orlando in which half the patrons were uniformed servicemen...freaked me out. I see so many ads for the military, in all forms of media...endless tributes at sporting events... flags everywhere...homeless veterans on every second street corner...airports filled with uniforms and 25 year old amputees...it's fucked up.
I really wish more people would question the wisdom of joining our military instead of unflinchingly supporting, even glorifying them.

Yes, you hit at the root of it for me. I guess in all my hard words the root of my point gets lost. I speak in hyperbole out of frustrated reaction to the fact that NOBODY questions a soldiers motivation, and NOBODY dares to lend any personal responsibility to the decision to join a murderous group. It is beyond question that one must support the troops entirely and never utter a contrary word. It is a scary level of indoctrination.

rgambs

mickeyrat said:

rgambs said:

The passing of Mr. Young just before Veteran's Day has me thinking more about this holiday than perhaps ever before. I have seen many comments, all from the heart and therefore wonderful to see. It does, however, bring some questions to my mind. Does thanking Mr. Young for his service (I take that to mean military service and not civil) sort of missing the point of what his life became, what he chose to do with it after his tragedy? Isn't his antiwar stance the most important thing he did, and wasn't it the bravest, to stand in a position which put him at odds with his brothers? It makes me think of some tough questions.

Does Veteran's Day contribute to the glorification of war?
Where is the line on being antiwar and still trying to respect those who made sacrifices?
How can we discourage youth from resorting to joining the services when our leaders set out for war-for-profit, without offending those who served? Can it be done at all?

in regards to your question(s) about Young, no it does not. In fact I think it make s all the more poignant and right in light of and especially FOR his work after leaving the service. I view that work as a continuation of the service to the nation, his comrades, and in service to the Constitution which he swore an oath to defend and protect against all enemies foreign and DOMESTIC.

He served admirably in that respect exposing a truth about war in general and in broader terms about treatment of and for veterans by our society.

Unfortunate thing is , those who would send young folks like him are still in power and we continue to vote for false patriotism and the selling of fear.

If I may, let me suggest you lay off the disparagement of those who willing choose to serve for whatever their personal reasons may be. At its heart the choice is about serving their country. They just choose to do so in that capacity. Instead, redirect ALL your energies to the policy makers and MIC who actually reap the profits of war.

So let me ask you a question that I posed before in the other, or another, thread.

A boy child is raised to believe that family is the most important thing. Family is what matters, and you always put the family above all else. His family loves him and treats him kindly, and he owes them much. Not a bad set of ethics is it? So when the child grows up, he starts to see some fishy business, and realizes his family is mafia. What does he do and how do you feel about his decision? Is it his responsibility to turn away from his blood family because they murder and ruin lives? Or should we "lay off disparagement of those who willing choose to serve for whatever their personal reasons may be.". After all, " At it's heart the choice is about serving their family". ??? The same question can be applied to "hood gangs" like the crips and bloods. The older gang members take care of kids and teach them a set of ethics about brotherhood, and then expect them to join their murderous organization when they reach semi-maturity. ??? What do you think? Should we hold mafia families and gangs responsible for their murder or should we "lay off " disparagement".
I am fine with you calling me out on failing to answer your question, as I said, that isn't my style...but now I expect the same from you.

mickeyrat

rgambs said:

mickeyrat said:

rgambs said:

The passing of Mr. Young just before Veteran's Day has me thinking more about this holiday than perhaps ever before. I have seen many comments, all from the heart and therefore wonderful to see. It does, however, bring some questions to my mind. Does thanking Mr. Young for his service (I take that to mean military service and not civil) sort of missing the point of what his life became, what he chose to do with it after his tragedy? Isn't his antiwar stance the most important thing he did, and wasn't it the bravest, to stand in a position which put him at odds with his brothers? It makes me think of some tough questions.

Does Veteran's Day contribute to the glorification of war?
Where is the line on being antiwar and still trying to respect those who made sacrifices?
How can we discourage youth from resorting to joining the services when our leaders set out for war-for-profit, without offending those who served? Can it be done at all?

in regards to your question(s) about Young, no it does not. In fact I think it make s all the more poignant and right in light of and especially FOR his work after leaving the service. I view that work as a continuation of the service to the nation, his comrades, and in service to the Constitution which he swore an oath to defend and protect against all enemies foreign and DOMESTIC.

He served admirably in that respect exposing a truth about war in general and in broader terms about treatment of and for veterans by our society.

Unfortunate thing is , those who would send young folks like him are still in power and we continue to vote for false patriotism and the selling of fear.

If I may, let me suggest you lay off the disparagement of those who willing choose to serve for whatever their personal reasons may be. At its heart the choice is about serving their country. They just choose to do so in that capacity. Instead, redirect ALL your energies to the policy makers and MIC who actually reap the profits of war.

So let me ask you a question that I posed before in the other, or another, thread.

A boy child is raised to believe that family is the most important thing. Family is what matters, and you always put the family above all else. His family loves him and treats him kindly, and he owes them much. Not a bad set of ethics is it? So when the child grows up, he starts to see some fishy business, and realizes his family is mafia. What does he do and how do you feel about his decision? Is it his responsibility to turn away from his blood family because they murder and ruin lives? Or should we "lay off disparagement of those who willing choose to serve for whatever their personal reasons may be.". After all, " At it's heart the choice is about serving their family". ??? The same question can be applied to "hood gangs" like the crips and bloods. The older gang members take care of kids and teach them a set of ethics about brotherhood, and then expect them to join their murderous organization when they reach semi-maturity. ??? What do you think? Should we hold mafia families and gangs responsible for their murder or should we "lay off " disparagement".
I am fine with you calling me out on failing to answer your question, as I said, that isn't my style...but now I expect the same from you.

I fail to see an adequate comparison in your analogy.
Military members arent born into service. in the first place. The military on its face isnt criminal in its existence( I'll grant shady shit does happen, not as a root of its existence). outside of what the CiC and Congress directs for declaring war or authorizing action, such as "extrajudicial executions" ANY service members should be held to account for those crimes. But in the course of lawful orders within the bounds of internationally recogonized rules of engagement , no I dont see it.

Case in point, the friend you said was in Kuwait? Criminal behavior and should be held to account.

rgambs

mickeyrat said:

rgambs said:

mickeyrat said:

rgambs said:

The passing of Mr. Young just before Veteran's Day has me thinking more about this holiday than perhaps ever before. I have seen many comments, all from the heart and therefore wonderful to see. It does, however, bring some questions to my mind. Does thanking Mr. Young for his service (I take that to mean military service and not civil) sort of missing the point of what his life became, what he chose to do with it after his tragedy? Isn't his antiwar stance the most important thing he did, and wasn't it the bravest, to stand in a position which put him at odds with his brothers? It makes me think of some tough questions.

Does Veteran's Day contribute to the glorification of war?
Where is the line on being antiwar and still trying to respect those who made sacrifices?
How can we discourage youth from resorting to joining the services when our leaders set out for war-for-profit, without offending those who served? Can it be done at all?

in regards to your question(s) about Young, no it does not. In fact I think it make s all the more poignant and right in light of and especially FOR his work after leaving the service. I view that work as a continuation of the service to the nation, his comrades, and in service to the Constitution which he swore an oath to defend and protect against all enemies foreign and DOMESTIC.

He served admirably in that respect exposing a truth about war in general and in broader terms about treatment of and for veterans by our society.

Unfortunate thing is , those who would send young folks like him are still in power and we continue to vote for false patriotism and the selling of fear.

If I may, let me suggest you lay off the disparagement of those who willing choose to serve for whatever their personal reasons may be. At its heart the choice is about serving their country. They just choose to do so in that capacity. Instead, redirect ALL your energies to the policy makers and MIC who actually reap the profits of war.

So let me ask you a question that I posed before in the other, or another, thread.

A boy child is raised to believe that family is the most important thing. Family is what matters, and you always put the family above all else. His family loves him and treats him kindly, and he owes them much. Not a bad set of ethics is it? So when the child grows up, he starts to see some fishy business, and realizes his family is mafia. What does he do and how do you feel about his decision? Is it his responsibility to turn away from his blood family because they murder and ruin lives? Or should we "lay off disparagement of those who willing choose to serve for whatever their personal reasons may be.". After all, " At it's heart the choice is about serving their family". ??? The same question can be applied to "hood gangs" like the crips and bloods. The older gang members take care of kids and teach them a set of ethics about brotherhood, and then expect them to join their murderous organization when they reach semi-maturity. ??? What do you think? Should we hold mafia families and gangs responsible for their murder or should we "lay off " disparagement".
I am fine with you calling me out on failing to answer your question, as I said, that isn't my style...but now I expect the same from you.

I fail to see an adequate comparison in your analogy.
Military members arent born into service. in the first place. The military on its face isnt criminal in its existence( I'll grant shady shit does happen, not as a root of its existence). outside of what the CiC and Congress directs for declaring war or authorizing action, such as "extrajudicial executions" ANY service members should be held to account for those crimes. But in the course of lawful orders within the bounds of internationally recogonized rules of engagement , no I dont see it.

Case in point, the friend you said was in Kuwait? Criminal behavior and should be held to account.

Of course you fail to see it, you don't want to see it.
"Military members arent born into service. in the first place". Doesn't that make it worse? To choose that life willingly?

"The military on its face isnt criminal in its existence". Laws don't make right and wrong. Aside from that, invading a country which poses no threat to your people and killing hundreds of thousands of civilians to maintain economic interest IS criminal...your "rules of engagement" can kiss my ass when you lay them in front of thousands of dead innocent children.

"Criminal behavior and should be held to account.". It isn't and it never will be. Just like the sexual assault/rape epidemic in the services. Service members don't get prosecuted for minor hate crimes or anything else that is bad press. That is criminal negligence. If behavior like the Kuwait situation I relayed was prosecuted, the services would have to be shut down, it's just the norm.

mickeyrat

Says the guy whos never served.

mickeyrat

Point of fact. As long as there are individual countries that have more than one human being each then there will be a need for military.

rgambs

mickeyrat said:

Says the guy whos never served.

Please explain the relevance? Is it only those who have served in Congress who get an opinion on legislation? Is it the same with all careers or just the ones which involve shooting people, like police and military?

mickeyrat

"Its just the norm" with no first hand knowledge.

There's so much more I'd like to say but I rather like posting here. I choose to steer clear. Please join me in

rgambs

mickeyrat said:

"Its just the norm" with no first hand knowledge.

There's so much more I'd like to say but I rather like posting here. I choose to steer clear. Please join me in that endeavor.

That's just a deflection. If firsthand knowledge is required to be informed on a given subject then none of us are informed about very much. A thorough history of reading books and articles, plus secondhand accounts from a very trusted source make me as informed as I need to be. Maybe more so than some of those who have served as I lack bias on the subject. There are hundreds, if not thousands of accounts to which I could point you as evidence that hate crimes, from minor degradation to major massacres like My Lai, are a regularly occurring part of foreign occupations. Since we haven't been attacked in 50 years, and haven't officially been at war those should all classify as war crimes.

You can choose to steer clear of difficult subjects if you wish, that is your prerogative, but don't think for a second that I will. I am perfectly capable of having a civil conversation about the crimes and atrocities committed by our military personnel, and the need for personal responsibility in joining an organization which regularly commits such acts.

For the record, I do agree that a military is necessary, I wish it wasn't, but clearly it is. Perhaps if there were fewer men willing to die for the whims of the MIC those MIC would spend lives a little more thriftily. Were America to seriously be attacked and I felt there was a legitimate threat to my family I would do my duty to the country which has given me so many great opportunities, but that is nothing close to joining for career prospect in this age of empire-building.

mickeyrat

No, I'm very aware that individuals and groups of people commit some very fucked up things. So bias doesnt necessarily apply with me.

As I understand things, war can wear on the mind contributing to more base human responses. See humans are the most fucked up animal on the planet. For all the potential good there is , there is an equal and opposite potential for ill.


What bothers me the most , is your statements here are a personal attack against me and my family members. That broad brush you use and the generalized statement include us as criminals. I get it wasn't directed specifically my way but that is irrelevant. if you read my above statement with that in mind I think you might better understand what I meant. It wasn't about subject matter. It was all about messenger.

Be well and all the best to you and yours.

rgambs

The 80's was a whole different time than it is now, and before the age of the internet a person had to do some real digging and serious research to uncover what is at our fingertips on Google alone. As I stated earlier, my hard words and broad brush strokes are a reaction to the soft words and broad brush strokes that are used to shine a positive, downright heroic light on all service members. It is a spectrum, like all aspects of life... As unforgiving as my words tend to be, I still feel they are less biased than society's broad acceptance of militarism and it's consequences. When there is an open dialogue, when personal responsibility in empire building is on the table, I will be afforded the luxury of a softer touch. Until then my conscious dictates hard words that I feel express hard truths.

Be well yourself, and all the very best to yours as well! May your meals fill your belly and mirth fill your soul!

i_lov_it

Well yes Veterans Day or Remembrance Day as it's known in Australia is important as it's to acknowledge and pay respect to the People who fought for your Country...although it's our so called leaders that start these wars it's the rest of the People that has to pick up the rest of the pieces and go out on the front line.

rgambs

i_lov_it said:

Well yes Veterans Day or Remembrance Day as it's known in Australia is important as it's to acknowledge and pay respect to the People who fought for your Country...although it's our so called leaders that start these wars it's the rest of the People that has to pick up the rest of the pieces and go out on the front line.

I dream of the day when the People stand and say, "No more war, I won't lay my life down for your corrupt legacy!"