Tough Questions on Veteran's Day

ed243421

rgambs said:

i_lov_it said:

Well yes Veterans Day or Remembrance Day as it's known in Australia is important as it's to acknowledge and pay respect to the People who fought for your Country...although it's our so called leaders that start these wars it's the rest of the People that has to pick up the rest of the pieces and go out on the front line.

I dream of the day when the People stand and say, "No more war, I won't lay my life down for your corrupt legacy!"

Exactly!

benjs

rgambs said:

i_lov_it said:

Well yes Veterans Day or Remembrance Day as it's known in Australia is important as it's to acknowledge and pay respect to the People who fought for your Country...although it's our so called leaders that start these wars it's the rest of the People that has to pick up the rest of the pieces and go out on the front line.

I dream of the day when the People stand and say, "No more war, I won't lay my life down for your corrupt legacy!"

I dream of the day when people sit and research before letting their preconceived notion of war - whether it be good or bad - dictate their decisions regarding choosing to enlist. Frankly, until we can abolish the current power structure, there will be people who choose to gain at the expense of others, and it's due to the fact that the poor boy will continue to be sent off to fight the rich man's war willingly. So, until you get the world saying "we refuse to act militaristically", you will likely end up in the situation where one (more liberal) nation is saying "we're not fighting" and the other (less liberal) nation is saying "well, then. How convenient. We'll cut our forces in half and invade you anyways" because they can, and because it will serve their purpose. Retreats from military mentality have to be universal, or not at all. So, in the interim, just as the union has power to unify people within a certain industry typically not provided with a voice (though that's irrefutably abused in society), there are two things I can think of that could be done:

1) Rather than teaching about the "joy attained from fighting for your country" (which, by the way, is likely only 'your' country in the sense that you were ejected from your mother in it, chose to remain or come to it out of financial dire straits, or just plain convenience - none of which seem to imply any form of 'partial ownership' nor even 'belonging' or 'allegiance'), teach about the ways one can learn about wars of the past, and encourage people to seek out this information ON THEIR OWN (i.e. not from the people with clear self-serving interests).

2) While the UN takes the collective 'war crimes' moniker and explores that avenue, to offer what have largely become slaps on the wrist, I envision something a bit different. The antiquated notion of a union, which unifies those with smaller voices to collectively combat a form of inequality (whether it's being asked to do something dangerous, with unequal reparations, or just plain unjust), might fit in nicely within a military circumstance. While watching a documentary the other night, one of the former Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) heads was asked about morality, and responded that "there's no room for morality when hunting for terrorists". That's a load of crap, but the people in charge likely feel that way in military situations quite frequently. It's time for the people who actually hold the guns and are instructed to kill to have an opportunity to admit that they don't think it's right to kill at the time: and maybe it's not because they're unpatriotic (as those who sent them might have you believe), but maybe (and here's a novel thought) because they just don't think it's right to kill at the time!

In any case, there are very few opinions I've held since developing an interest in global politics/philosophy/ethics where I can say that I'm 100% in favour of one thing or another. There are shades of grey, and to reduce the impact of war to a binary discussion of 'right' or 'wrong' just doesn't seem reasonable to me given the litany of reasons for entering a war, exiting a war, fighting a war, fighting a war in a certain style, etc.

rgambs

benjs said:

rgambs said:

i_lov_it said:

Well yes Veterans Day or Remembrance Day as it's known in Australia is important as it's to acknowledge and pay respect to the People who fought for your Country...although it's our so called leaders that start these wars it's the rest of the People that has to pick up the rest of the pieces and go out on the front line.

I dream of the day when the People stand and say, "No more war, I won't lay my life down for your corrupt legacy!"

I dream of the day when people sit and research before letting their preconceived notion of war - whether it be good or bad - dictate their decisions regarding choosing to enlist. Frankly, until we can abolish the current power structure, there will be people who choose to gain at the expense of others, and it's due to the fact that the poor boy will continue to be sent off to fight the rich man's war willingly. So, until you get the world saying "we refuse to act militaristically", you will likely end up in the situation where one (more liberal) nation is saying "we're not fighting" and the other (less liberal) nation is saying "well, then. How convenient. We'll cut our forces in half and invade you anyways" because they can, and because it will serve their purpose. Retreats from military mentality have to be universal, or not at all. So, in the interim, just as the union has power to unify people within a certain industry typically not provided with a voice (though that's irrefutably abused in society), there are two things I can think of that could be done:

1) Rather than teaching about the "joy attained from fighting for your country" (which, by the way, is likely only 'your' country in the sense that you were ejected from your mother in it, chose to remain or come to it out of financial dire straits, or just plain convenience - none of which seem to imply any form of 'partial ownership' nor even 'belonging' or 'allegiance'), teach about the ways one can learn about wars of the past, and encourage people to seek out this information ON THEIR OWN (i.e. not from the people with clear self-serving interests).

2) While the UN takes the collective 'war crimes' moniker and explores that avenue, to offer what have largely become slaps on the wrist, I envision something a bit different. The antiquated notion of a union, which unifies those with smaller voices to collectively combat a form of inequality (whether it's being asked to do something dangerous, with unequal reparations, or just plain unjust), might fit in nicely within a military circumstance. While watching a documentary the other night, one of the former Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) heads was asked about morality, and responded that "there's no room for morality when hunting for terrorists". That's a load of crap, but the people in charge likely feel that way in military situations quite frequently. It's time for the people who actually hold the guns and are instructed to kill to have an opportunity to admit that they don't think it's right to kill at the time: and maybe it's not because they're unpatriotic (as those who sent them might have you believe), but maybe (and here's a novel thought) because they just don't think it's right to kill at the time!

In any case, there are very few opinions I've held since developing an interest in global politics/philosophy/ethics where I can say that I'm 100% in favour of one thing or another. There are shades of grey, and to reduce the impact of war to a binary discussion of 'right' or 'wrong' just doesn't seem reasonable to me given the litany of reasons for entering a war, exiting a war, fighting a war, fighting a war in a certain style, etc.

Great post! The opportunity to decide for yourself what's right, unfettered by the cycles of patriotic indoctrination by society and the powers that be, that's what we really need.

cp3iverson

Massive respect for any US veteran. It's not a cliche to say that we wouldn't be free to post our opinions here without their service.

We are not a perfect nation and there's a lot more gray than black and white when in comes to going to war but our soldiers have kept this country in tact. I would say that our war vets have stopped TRUE murderous organizations and are not part of one. Anyone who believes otherwise is uneducated and ignorant.

rgambs

cp3iverson said:

Massive respect for any US veteran. It's not a cliche to say that we wouldn't be free to post our opinions here without their service.

We are not a perfect nation and there's a lot more gray than black and white when in comes to going to war but our soldiers have kept this country in tact. I would say that our war vets have stopped TRUE murderous organizations and are not part of one. Anyone who believes otherwise is uneducated and ignorant.

Uneducated and ignorant is a little harsh...and not particularly grounded in facts. Which truly murderous organization which would have torn us apart was stopped by our vets? And how can you consider our military intervention in Iraq, which resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths of innocents not truly murderous?

As you said yourself, there is a lot more grey than black and white, and it goes both ways. China has veterans, and so does North Korea and yet they don't have the freedoms we do. There is much to it, and painting all veterans ever as heroes is just as idiotic as painting all veterans ever as villains.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

I've got a ton of respect for any veteran as well. I do wish that it was within the realm of possibilities that every individual in every country refused to take up arms to fight old and entitled men's battles typically spawned from greed.

It's not though. And as such, there is a need for militaries.

The US has found themselves in quite the quagmire. At this point in time, how can they deconstruct their military industry without very serious repercussions?

i_lov_it

rgambs said:

i_lov_it said:

Well yes Veterans Day or Remembrance Day as it's known in Australia is important as it's to acknowledge and pay respect to the People who fought for your Country...although it's our so called leaders that start these wars it's the rest of the People that has to pick up the rest of the pieces and go out on the front line.

I dream of the day when the People stand and say, "No more war, I won't lay my life down for your corrupt legacy!"

Well that's right...The powers using the General public as chess pieces in there corrupt regimes.

lukin2006

I see nothing wrong with setting a day aside to remember veterans of past wars. In Canada its called Remembrance Day (we wear a poppy on our left side as a tribute, other common wealth countries do as well). There is now legislation in the House of Commons that will bring the day back a a statutory holiday as early as Remembrance Day 2015 ... it has all party support so it will likely pass.

Some are against it being a holiday, they would rather the kids be in school learning about past wars. I would much rather them bring the day back as a stat holiday, the schools can still have an assembly to honour vets.

A few years ago there was a piece in the local newspaper about a group of veterans who said it was mistake that they never discussed WW2 ... they were offering their services to go to schools and educate, discuss and answer questions ... they were feeling as they were entering the final years of their lives that they wanted to get their stories out about the true horrors of war so the kids could here from soldiers who served not from some textbook, film or the opinion of someone who never served, at the time of the article no school had taken them up on their offer and I never saw a follow up article to the story.

Personally I think Canada should not participate in any foreign wars.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

lukin2006 said:

I see nothing wrong with setting a day aside to remember veterans of past wars. In Canada its called Remembrance Day (we wear a poppy on our left side as a tribute, other common wealth countries do as well). There is now legislation in the House of Commons that will bring the day back a a statutory holiday as early as Remembrance Day 2015 ... it has all party support so it will likely pass.

Some are against it being a holiday, they would rather the kids be in school learning about past wars. I would much rather them bring the day back as a stat holiday, the schools can still have an assembly to honour vets.

A few years ago there was a piece in the local newspaper about a group of veterans who said it was mistake that they never discussed WW2 ... they were offering their services to go to schools and educate, discuss and answer questions ... they were feeling as they were entering the final years of their lives that they wanted to get their stories out about the true horrors of war so the kids could here from soldiers who served not from some textbook, film or the opinion of someone who never served, at the time of the article no school had taken them up on their offer and I never saw a follow up article to the story.

Personally I think Canada should not participate in any foreign wars.

I'm okay with Canada serving as peacekeepers- particularly in Africa (the Congo and Rwanda for recent examples) where intervention is sometimes desperately needed and easily given.