So you're surprised that you weren't able to incite more people into a pointless argument over something that happened over 40 years ago that has no bearing on current events? Perhaps some of us just have better things to do.
Israel uses past events with 'no bearing on current events' [sic?] to justify their behaviour/crimes all the time...if you'd played the video for even 3 minutes, you'd know the documentary explains before the title even rolls that these events resonate in Israel/us relations to this day....yet simply posting a documentary that presents new evidence of an Israeli atrocity is enough to bring out the derogatory 'conspiracy theory' comments, the claims of provocation, hate.....you say you don't care about your cred...well that's a good thing considering you refuse to watch or read anything condemning of Israel, while bitching about confirmation bias.
Benjs, it seems like you're responding to a lot more than what I've said here. But to the extent that you're responding to me -- I'm not trying to shut down this discussion. People can talk about whatever they like here. It's not my place to tell people what they can and can't discuss, even if I think the discussion is pointless and premised on an absurd conspiracy theory. The only reason I've even commented here at all is to explain why I don't feel that this thread merits a meaningful response, i.e., that it's a blatant attempt to pick a fight rather than to start a discussion. And I'm tired of fighting with people who insist that those who disagree with them are "losing credibility" simply because they refuse to agree with whatever nonsense is being peddled. Sorry for the bitter tone, but I've just about fed up with the tenor of what passes for discussion on this forum (at least on this topic).
oh god yosi....you've been just about fed up with the tenor of what passes for discussion here for like 10 years. So here you've denied the board's consensus that it was a deliberate attack, dismissed the discussion as irrelevant, called an attack on an ally that caused many deaths 'nonsense', and took a shot at the entire board. Thanks for the input.
So you're surprised that you weren't able to incite more people into a pointless argument over something that happened over 40 years ago that has no bearing on current events? Perhaps some of us just have better things to do.
Israel uses past events with 'no bearing on current events' [sic?] to justify their behaviour/crimes all the time...if you'd played the video for even 3 minutes, you'd know the documentary explains before the title even rolls that these events resonate in Israel/us relations to this day....yet simply posting a documentary that presents new evidence of an Israeli atrocity is enough to bring out the derogatory 'conspiracy theory' comments, the claims of provocation, hate.....you say you don't care about your cred...well that's a good thing considering you refuse to watch or read anything condemning of Israel, while bitching about confirmation bias.
Benjs, it seems like you're responding to a lot more than what I've said here. But to the extent that you're responding to me -- I'm not trying to shut down this discussion. People can talk about whatever they like here. It's not my place to tell people what they can and can't discuss, even if I think the discussion is pointless and premised on an absurd conspiracy theory. The only reason I've even commented here at all is to explain why I don't feel that this thread merits a meaningful response, i.e., that it's a blatant attempt to pick a fight rather than to start a discussion. And I'm tired of fighting with people who insist that those who disagree with them are "losing credibility" simply because they refuse to agree with whatever nonsense is being peddled. Sorry for the bitter tone, but I've just about fed up with the tenor of what passes for discussion on this forum (at least on this topic).
oh god yosi....you've been just about fed up with the tenor of what passes for discussion here for like 10 years. So here you've denied the board's consensus that it was a deliberate attack, dismissed the discussion as irrelevant, called an attack on an ally that caused many deaths 'nonsense', and took a shot at the entire board. Thanks for the input.
Benjs, it seems like you're responding to a lot more than what I've said here. But to the extent that you're responding to me -- I'm not trying to shut down this discussion. People can talk about whatever they like here. It's not my place to tell people what they can and can't discuss, even if I think the discussion is pointless and premised on an absurd conspiracy theory. The only reason I've even commented here at all is to explain why I don't feel that this thread merits a meaningful response, i.e., that it's a blatant attempt to pick a fight rather than to start a discussion. And I'm tired of fighting with people who insist that those who disagree with them are "losing credibility" simply because they refuse to agree with whatever nonsense is being peddled. Sorry for the bitter tone, but I've just about fed up with the tenor of what passes for discussion on this forum (at least on this topic).
Yosi,
I meant my statement mostly in response to your comment that people will find any way to deem Israel as evil. I believe that this is a reasonable opinion for the world to propose when everything that looks evil at the surface done by Israelis garners a public Israeli response of "you just don't understand the Middle East" or "you're all out to get us" or "you never treat us fairly" or "this isn't even a real conversation". Where's the logic - all I ever see is deflection. Although the issue I alluded to was not the one being discussed here, my point is that a highly visible act that looks full of cruelty and malice which has been allowed to occur without so much as an explanation with a semblance of valid logic (the Palestinian/Israeli conflict) is going to strip Israel of global sympathy for even the most real of problems (whether internal or external - though I'm not touching this one with a ten foot pole - I haven't watched the video yet so I can't pass judgment on the legitimacy).
For the record, I refute the notion that I've seen Israelis have written where they claim that this is the ebb and flow of global attention to Israel, and that the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is just 'another topic' where global concern will dissipate to pick a new fight with Israel. The era of 'forgetting' is over, and Israeli politicians need to realize that. Information is readily accessible now to a degree it never has been before, and more importantly - the prerequisite cost of sharing information has decreased significantly: where it used to require a strong speaking voice, a career in the media, backing from a studio at significant monetary cost, now even I can go on Facebook, post four sentences, and know that they will be at least seen by around 400 people. And I'm just some kid. What's amazing and terrifying about the internet (based on your agenda) is that disseminating opinions (and thereby control through planted seeds of thought process along a predetermined path) is being democratized, and no longer reserved for those with power exclusively. This has, is, and will continue to expedite change like never before.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Benjs, I agree that there is far too much deflection and far too little introspection from many supporters of Israel. But I don't think it's fair to expect Israeli supporters to be introspective in a forum like this one, which I would submit to you is vehemently and unreasonably hostile to Israel.
Just a really small example: I don't remember exactly which thread it was in, but someone recently posted a link about Israel closing down the Temple Mount and not allowing Palestinians to pray there for the day due to security concerns. The comments that accompanied the link were something along the lines of "Oh look at what Israel is doing! This is such incitement." Now, of course, the Temple Mount is holy to both Muslims and Jews, but do you know who Israel has categorically banned from EVER praying on the Temple Mount because of security concerns. Jews. And that's the right decision (even though it's shitty that religious intolerance is driving the policy). But when they impose a very temporary restriction on Palestinians so as to keep the peace it's presented here as if it's just another example of Israeli evil.
Were you to speak to people in another context (and maybe you have, I don't know) I think the conversation would be different. I know that among my close friends, all of whom have spent at least as much time living in Israel as I have, and some of whom still live there and have served in the IDF, we are all extremely critical of Israeli policy, but that's because we know that among ourselves we're not lending fuel to those with a hateful agenda.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Benjs, I agree that there is far too much deflection and far too little introspection from many supporters of Israel. But I don't think it's fair to expect Israeli supporters to be introspective in a forum like this one, which I would submit to you is vehemently and unreasonably hostile to Israel.
Just a really small example: I don't remember exactly which thread it was in, but someone recently posted a link about Israel closing down the Temple Mount and not allowing Palestinians to pray there for the day due to security concerns. The comments that accompanied the link were something along the lines of "Oh look at what Israel is doing! This is such incitement." Now, of course, the Temple Mount is holy to both Muslims and Jews, but do you know who Israel has categorically banned from EVER praying on the Temple Mount because of security concerns. Jews. And that's the right decision (even though it's shitty that religious intolerance is driving the policy). But when they impose a very temporary restriction on Palestinians so as to keep the peace it's presented here as if it's just another example of Israeli evil.
Were you to speak to people in another context (and maybe you have, I don't know) I think the conversation would be different. I know that among my close friends, all of whom have spent at least as much time living in Israel as I have, and some of whom still live there and have served in the IDF, we are all extremely critical of Israeli policy, but that's because we know that among ourselves we're not lending fuel to those with a hateful agenda.
If I may ask, why is this the only topic in which you engage on the AMT? Is there no other topic or injustice that you care about? Nothing else in which you are at least semi-informed. It isn't just politics here, it is also ethics and concerns that range beyond US policy squabbles. Is defending Israel your only reason for being here?
It's not exclusively Israel, but that is the topic I'm most passionate about. And I'd much rather discuss instead of defend. But I've commented on a few other topics as well. I'm generally on the train infrequently these days in any event, though.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
No. I'm a native New Yorker and I was in my tenth grade chemistry class on the Upper East Side. I walked home across central park because all the trains and buses stopped running, and when I got there I ran into my neighbor, who worked in the financial district, and was covered head to toe is dust from the towers. Dick.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
No. I'm a native New Yorker and I was in my tenth grade chemistry class on the Upper East Side. I walked home across central park because all the trains and buses stopped running, and when I got there I ran into my neighbor, who worked in the financial district, and was covered head to toe is dust from the towers. Dick.
I'm glad your neighbor was covered in dust and not white phosphorous!
I said links...do a simple Google search. Try the 5 dancing Israelis first. Where are they now?
Is Israel above conspiring or perpetrating such an attack?
Is America? How about Russia? Vietnam maybe?
Why don't you stick to facts? There's more than enough factual evidence of ways that Israel has failed at acting morally while considering its own benefit: any deviation into the unfounded and unprovable really doesn't serve your purpose well.
For the record, making jokes about white phosphorous and projecting an epidemic of being apathetic to the loss of life across any sect of people is entirely tasteless: no matter what you believe, that fact will remain.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,871
the policy of the U.S in regards to Israel is a part of what the hatred is about IMO. Not necessarily due to Israeli direct action. Although it could be reasonbaly argued that the continued same treatment of Palestine and continued land grabs for settlements foment hatred toward U.S. policy in the middle east at large.
Theres a severe lack of HONEST assesment of what the policy does and how if we change course in a transparent way that in a generation or two things may progress to a point of cooperative spirit between all nations.
All of it is grudge shit and trying to settle long held scores in addition to the new shit that gets piled on top of that. No ONE in leadership ANYWHERE is blameless.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I said links...do a simple Google search. Try the 5 dancing Israelis first. Where are they now?
Is Israel above conspiring or perpetrating such an attack?
I've stayed out of this one,but sheesh this is not only a stretch but it is probably one of the more ridiculous statements I've read.To me this is the type of rhetoric that fuels rascist stereotypes.We all know what lead up to the 9/11 tragedy and who was responsible.
I said links...do a simple Google search. Try the 5 dancing Israelis first. Where are they now?
Is Israel above conspiring or perpetrating such an attack?
I've stayed out of this one,but sheesh this is not only a stretch but it is probably one of the more ridiculous statements I've read.To me this is the type of rhetoric that fuels rascist stereotypes.We all know what lead up to the 9/11 tragedy and who was responsible.
It's the kind of post that's fueled by fear, hate, and ignorance.
Comments
saying so would be like me saying the night of broken glass was just a conspiracy theory.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
they did it because they knew they could get away with it.
plus the liberty was a spy ship. kind of ironic now that israel spys on us about as much as anybody now.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
So here you've denied the board's consensus that it was a deliberate attack, dismissed the discussion as irrelevant, called an attack on an ally that caused many deaths 'nonsense', and took a shot at the entire board. Thanks for the input.
I meant my statement mostly in response to your comment that people will find any way to deem Israel as evil. I believe that this is a reasonable opinion for the world to propose when everything that looks evil at the surface done by Israelis garners a public Israeli response of "you just don't understand the Middle East" or "you're all out to get us" or "you never treat us fairly" or "this isn't even a real conversation". Where's the logic - all I ever see is deflection. Although the issue I alluded to was not the one being discussed here, my point is that a highly visible act that looks full of cruelty and malice which has been allowed to occur without so much as an explanation with a semblance of valid logic (the Palestinian/Israeli conflict) is going to strip Israel of global sympathy for even the most real of problems (whether internal or external - though I'm not touching this one with a ten foot pole - I haven't watched the video yet so I can't pass judgment on the legitimacy).
For the record, I refute the notion that I've seen Israelis have written where they claim that this is the ebb and flow of global attention to Israel, and that the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is just 'another topic' where global concern will dissipate to pick a new fight with Israel. The era of 'forgetting' is over, and Israeli politicians need to realize that. Information is readily accessible now to a degree it never has been before, and more importantly - the prerequisite cost of sharing information has decreased significantly: where it used to require a strong speaking voice, a career in the media, backing from a studio at significant monetary cost, now even I can go on Facebook, post four sentences, and know that they will be at least seen by around 400 people. And I'm just some kid. What's amazing and terrifying about the internet (based on your agenda) is that disseminating opinions (and thereby control through planted seeds of thought process along a predetermined path) is being democratized, and no longer reserved for those with power exclusively. This has, is, and will continue to expedite change like never before.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Just a really small example: I don't remember exactly which thread it was in, but someone recently posted a link about Israel closing down the Temple Mount and not allowing Palestinians to pray there for the day due to security concerns. The comments that accompanied the link were something along the lines of "Oh look at what Israel is doing! This is such incitement." Now, of course, the Temple Mount is holy to both Muslims and Jews, but do you know who Israel has categorically banned from EVER praying on the Temple Mount because of security concerns. Jews. And that's the right decision (even though it's shitty that religious intolerance is driving the policy). But when they impose a very temporary restriction on Palestinians so as to keep the peace it's presented here as if it's just another example of Israeli evil.
Were you to speak to people in another context (and maybe you have, I don't know) I think the conversation would be different. I know that among my close friends, all of whom have spent at least as much time living in Israel as I have, and some of whom still live there and have served in the IDF, we are all extremely critical of Israeli policy, but that's because we know that among ourselves we're not lending fuel to those with a hateful agenda.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Is Israel above conspiring or perpetrating such an attack?
Is Israel above conspiring or perpetrating such an attack?
Why don't you stick to facts? There's more than enough factual evidence of ways that Israel has failed at acting morally while considering its own benefit: any deviation into the unfounded and unprovable really doesn't serve your purpose well.
For the record, making jokes about white phosphorous and projecting an epidemic of being apathetic to the loss of life across any sect of people is entirely tasteless: no matter what you believe, that fact will remain.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Theres a severe lack of HONEST assesment of what the policy does and how if we change course in a transparent way that in a generation or two things may progress to a point of cooperative spirit between all nations.
All of it is grudge shit and trying to settle long held scores in addition to the new shit that gets piled on top of that. No ONE in leadership ANYWHERE is blameless.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
http://www.salem-news.com/articles/september122012/mossad-cia-911.php
More from you and your belief in the conspiracy theorists myth of the 5 dancing Isrealis.
What's next from you?
You're belief in.....
ZOG
Blood Libel
Holocaust denial
New World Order
The Rothschilds running the worlds financial institutions