So you're surprised that you weren't able to incite more people into a pointless argument over something that happened over 40 years ago that has no bearing on current events? Perhaps some of us just have better things to do.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
So you're surprised that you weren't able to incite more people into a pointless argument over something that happened over 40 years ago that has no bearing on current events? Perhaps some of us just have better things to do.
No bearing on current events? It shows that even 40 year ago, Israel could/did get away with murder, like in 2014, like now.
It shows, that (for whatever reason) Israel is above all, even us (the USA)
So you're surprised that you weren't able to incite more people into a pointless argument over something that happened over 40 years ago that has no bearing on current events? Perhaps some of us just have better things to do.
it isn't a pointless argument. it just shows that israel will fuck over it's allies, kill OUR soldiers/sailors, and hold OUR president hostage if it helps their position. americans should never, ever forget that. especially when they blindly defend israel and it's policies. what is to stop them from doing it again to get US sucked into THEIR conflicts??
these are things we were never taught in school, so i share it here.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway
and yes yosi, i am pissed off about this. 40 years ago for you, brand new information about it for me. i guarantee that this is the first time most of us have heard about it.
this is exactly how extremist ideas get passed down from generation to generation. this is how israel and the united states are creating more terrorists. every person that is murdered like this, and like the war in gaza, someone is left to mourn them. those men have children or other relatives that might make it their life's mission to go on to avenge those murders. it might not be the next generation. maybe a grandson or great-grandson hears about how their grandfather was murdered and then they might be the ones.
if israel would do it 40 years ago, why wouldn't they do it today? is it because they need the US and our billions of dollars in military aid?? regardless, they are capable of doing it again today, with our own weapons we give them, if they choose to do so.
please don't try to minimize this and brush it under the rug, like it has been for the last 40 years.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway
I think if one was to say that this event from over 40 years ago has no real bearing on today's current events... then one would have to acknowledge that this is so because it was managed then to do as such.
I don't think an expiration date should be set on treachery.
"My brain's a good brain!"
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,870
I think if one was to say that this event from over 40 years ago has no real bearing on today's current events... then one would have to acknowledge that this is so because it was managed then to do as such.
I don't think an expiration date should be set on treachery.
Exactly. There is no expiration date on a heinous policy implemented during WWII, nor should there be for any fucked up act.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I don't think anybody's saying the US shouldn't get along with Israel today. I think people are saying look how shitty this event was and look how shitty the players in this event were.
I don't think anybody's saying the US shouldn't get along with Israel today. I think people are saying look how shitty this event was and look how shitty the players in this event were.
And how it's REMAINED a secret for all these years? Why? Why not discuss this or teach us this in school? It's part of history. And a very important part.
I don't think anybody's saying the US shouldn't get along with Israel today. I think people are saying look how shitty this event was and look how shitty the players in this event were.
And how it's REMAINED a secret for all these years? Why? Why not discuss this or teach us this in school? It's part of history. And a very important part.
There are many questions that need to be answered regarding this incident... you are very correct.
At a bare minimum, discussing these incidents makes some squirm a bit that should squirm a bit.
I don't think anybody's saying the US shouldn't get along with Israel today. I think people are saying look how shitty this event was and look how shitty the players in this event were.
And how it's REMAINED a secret for all these years? Why? Why not discuss this or teach us this in school? It's part of history. And a very important part.
There are many questions that need to be answered regarding this incident... you are very correct.
At a bare minimum, discussing these incidents makes some squirm a bit that should squirm a bit.
Unfortunately, discussing these incidents is something that those who know they'll squirm make a point of avoiding. I'm trying to take a 180 from my former position here, at least until the point where people who should squirm are willing to subject themselves to exposure to these inconvenient and HARD topics.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
So I'll repeat, I think you got less response than you expected to get because this event has no bearing on anything happening today. It seems that the only relevance people can identify in this event is that they think it confirms their own notions of Israel's character, or simply that it is a thing that happened. I'm not saying this didn't occur (although I seriously doubt the notion that it was deliberate), but again, it has no concrete bearing on current events, so I don't know why you're surprised that people don't want to get sucked into an argument over an irrelevant 40-year-old conspiracy theory, especially since it seems perfectly clear (to me at least) that your intentions in posting this are to demonstrate (yet again) how implacably evil you think Israel is.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
So I'll repeat, I think you got less response than you expected to get because this event has no bearing on anything happening today. It seems that the only relevance people can identify in this event is that they think it confirms their own notions of Israel's character, or simply that it is a thing that happened. I'm not saying this didn't occur (although I seriously doubt the notion that it was deliberate), but again, it has no concrete bearing on current events, so I don't know why you're surprised that people don't want to get sucked into an argument over an irrelevant 40-year-old conspiracy theory, especially since it seems perfectly clear (to me at least) that your intentions in posting this are to demonstrate (yet again) how implacably evil you think Israel is.
WHAT? Not deliberate? WOW. Ya guess those idf air force pilots couldn't see that HUGE FUCKEN AMERICAN flag blowing in the wind of the liberty? You've got to be fucken kidding me yosi, not deliberate? U just lost all credibility with me. Smh
So I'll repeat, I think you got less response than you expected to get because this event has no bearing on anything happening today. It seems that the only relevance people can identify in this event is that they think it confirms their own notions of Israel's character, or simply that it is a thing that happened. I'm not saying this didn't occur (although I seriously doubt the notion that it was deliberate), but again, it has no concrete bearing on current events, so I don't know why you're surprised that people don't want to get sucked into an argument over an irrelevant 40-year-old conspiracy theory, especially since it seems perfectly clear (to me at least) that your intentions in posting this are to demonstrate (yet again) how implacably evil you think Israel is.
Yosi,
I'm fighting in favour of reasonable and open discussion here, and have expressed my opposition to things said by both Israeli and Palestinian supporters when in my gut I feel that something is wrong (and I've learnt about delusions of my own this way, or seen things in a completely different light when a conversation is through). I try not to be adversarial, but the reality is that when people have allegiances residing with a semblance of nationalist or religious pride - their allegiances are going to be tested, and they will likely become upset. The fact that this event is being discussed (instead of the ongoing events, or events with clear bearing on events today) likely has to do with the momentum of emotion: people see or hear about something they dislike - they respond. They get no answers that present logic (if they get answers), so they drill in further. They feel more and more emotionally invested until eventually, the fact that someone bites their nails too loudly is likely to set them off.
This particular event is hardly equatable to biting your nails too loudly, but I hope you understand what I'm saying. It saddens me to say this, but it is an absolutely abhorrent failure on the part of Israelis and Israeli supporters (and NOT their government) that they have accepted cushy court-side seats to watch the show of destruction, aggression, and hatred - instead of working to prevent any or all of these traits within their own community. Heavy-handed response to Israeli politics is not the catalyst to unfair and disproportionate global response against Israel: it is a byproduct of years of inappropriate behaviour largely gone unanswered for, combined with maybe an inkling of a wave of global giving a shit.
I can sleep at night now (sometimes), because I read about this, I write about this, I talk about this, I question about this, I make friends because of this, I lose friends because of this: but I exert energy on it. When I first started reading about Israel with a critical mind - I couldn't sleep at night. Because I hadn't read about it, hadn't written about it, hadn't spoken about it (meaningfully at least): hadn't given a shit. The rest of the world is tired of asking hard questions and receiving no good answers. This is not a global epidemic of hatred (in spite of what I truly believed even a year ago) - it is one of concern.
To Israelis who might read this, please, I'm begging you, speak up. Tell your story. Be a spokesperson where your peers aren't. If you can present logic, I will defend you, and I hope I'm not the only one. Anyone's also welcome to message me, of course, and I'm happy to discuss there if you're worried about public condemnation on here. Or if you'd like to explain to me why I'm delusional and wrong about Israel - I'm open to that too.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I didn't watch the video, but read the Wiki page on the incident. It is a shitty incident. The officers involved screwed up but I don't see a motive for the high command to have directed the attack. If they did, the ship would have been sunk and all the sailors would have been dead. And they would have started with a sub torpedo attack instead of a visible strafing attack.
I didn't watch the video, but read the Wiki page on the incident. It is a shitty incident. The officers involved screwed up but I don't see a motive for the high command to have directed the attack. If they did, the ship would have been sunk and all the sailors would have been dead. And they would have started with a sub torpedo attack instead of a visible strafing attack.
Wrong bro, they deliberately attacked hoping they could shift the blame on Egypt and have America get involved in this conflict. Only reason they didn't finish the job was because a soviet sub came to the Americans rescue when Washington order "stand down." Come on bro, really, why else would they fucken attack us? How many fucken countries have battleships like the US in the Mid East at that time? And we could tell the difference between country's battleships. Bro seriously, you're losing credibility as well. How anyone can see that Israel DIDNT ATTACK deliberately is beyond me. And about your statement about them using a sub, hard to use a sub when u have a soviet sub in the same waters. Dude, really?
I didn't watch the video, but read the Wiki page on the incident. It is a shitty incident. The officers involved screwed up but I don't see a motive for the high command to have directed the attack. If they did, the ship would have been sunk and all the sailors would have been dead. And they would have started with a sub torpedo attack instead of a visible strafing attack.
You should watch the video. There is ample evidence (including multiple confirmations from pilots to command centers) that shows the attack was very deliberate. And they did try and sink the ship with torpedoes. They only turned back when a counter-attack had commenced.
* By the way... when I said at a bare minimum, discussing these incidents makes some squirm a bit that should squirm a bit... I mean those directly involved in the attack and the ensuing cover-up (having their dirty secret exposed)- not anyone here!
I didn't watch the video, but read the Wiki page on the incident. It is a shitty incident. The officers involved screwed up but I don't see a motive for the high command to have directed the attack. If they did, the ship would have been sunk and all the sailors would have been dead. And they would have started with a sub torpedo attack instead of a visible strafing attack.
You should watch the video. There is ample evidence (including multiple confirmations from pilots to command centers) that shows the attack was very deliberate. And they did try and sink the ship with torpedoes. They only turned back when a counter-attack had commenced.
* By the way... when I said at a bare minimum, discussing these incidents makes some squirm a bit that should squirm a bit... I mean those directly involved in the attack and the ensuing cover-up (having their dirty secret exposed)- not anyone here!
I didn't watch the video, but read the Wiki page on the incident. It is a shitty incident. The officers involved screwed up but I don't see a motive for the high command to have directed the attack. If they did, the ship would have been sunk and all the sailors would have been dead. And they would have started with a sub torpedo attack instead of a visible strafing attack.
Wrong bro, they deliberately attacked hoping they could shift the blame on Egypt and have America get involved in this conflict. Only reason they didn't finish the job was because a soviet sub came to the Americans rescue when Washington order "stand down." Come on bro, really, why else would they fucken attack us? How many fucken countries have battleships like the US in the Mid East at that time? And we could tell the difference between country's battleships. Bro seriously, you're losing credibility as well. How anyone can see that Israel DIDNT ATTACK deliberately is beyond me. And about your statement about them using a sub, hard to use a sub when u have a soviet sub in the same waters. Dude, really?
They did attack deliberately. Pat Tillman was also attacked deliberately.
I don't see Israel doing a strafing run to start the attack if their intention was to pin it on Egypt, a country in which no way did they need US intervention to defeat. It doesn't make sense to me from a strategic standpoint.
Also, please stop with the whole "you are losing street cred, bro" when we are having reasonable discussion. It defeats the purpose of AMT.
They 100% wanted the US to intervene with Egypt wether they (Israel) can handle it or not. U have to remember 1 thing, this war was gonna spread all over with Israel, and they needed and wanted the aid of the US. Let's not pretend here that Israel is untouchable when it comes to wars. They haven't proven shit. What, attacking unarmed civilians in gaza? Does that prove might or cowardliness? Don't have to go that far back (06) to see what can happen to Israel when it actually fights against someone who actually can fight back (Hezbollah).
They 100% wanted the US to intervene with Egypt wether they (Israel) can handle it or not. U have to remember 1 thing, this war was gonna spread all over with Israel, and they needed and wanted the aid of the US. Let's not pretend here that Israel is untouchable when it comes to wars. They haven't proven shit. What, attacking unarmed civilians in gaza? Does that prove might or cowardliness? Don't have to go that far back (06) to see what can happen to Israel when it actually fights against someone who actually can fight back (Hezbollah).
When a war ends up being called "The Six Day War", you don't need the number one superpower to swing the balance. If it is the 2,084 Day War, then I can see creating a conspiracy to drag the number one superpower into the mix.
They 100% wanted the US to intervene with Egypt wether they (Israel) can handle it or not. U have to remember 1 thing, this war was gonna spread all over with Israel, and they needed and wanted the aid of the US. Let's not pretend here that Israel is untouchable when it comes to wars. They haven't proven shit. What, attacking unarmed civilians in gaza? Does that prove might or cowardliness? Don't have to go that far back (06) to see what can happen to Israel when it actually fights against someone who actually can fight back (Hezbollah).
When a war ends up being called "The Six Day War", you don't need the number one superpower to swing the balance. If it is the 2,084 Day War, then I can see creating a conspiracy to drag the number one superpower into the mix.
Then "why" deliberately attack the US? What was the reasoning behind this? Why was there "nothing" done where if that happened today, we'd call it an act of war? Even you have said it was done deliberately, so why did they do it?
Edit-and please really read into what "really" happened behind the scenes from what and who's side for that war to be "the 6 day war".
They 100% wanted the US to intervene with Egypt wether they (Israel) can handle it or not. U have to remember 1 thing, this war was gonna spread all over with Israel, and they needed and wanted the aid of the US. Let's not pretend here that Israel is untouchable when it comes to wars. They haven't proven shit. What, attacking unarmed civilians in gaza? Does that prove might or cowardliness? Don't have to go that far back (06) to see what can happen to Israel when it actually fights against someone who actually can fight back (Hezbollah).
When a war ends up being called "The Six Day War", you don't need the number one superpower to swing the balance. If it is the 2,084 Day War, then I can see creating a conspiracy to drag the number one superpower into the mix.
Then "why" deliberately attack the US? What was the reasoning behind this? Why was there "nothing" done where if that happened today, we'd call it an act of war? Even you have said it was done deliberately, so why did they do it?
Edit-and please really read into what "really" happened behind the scenes from what and who's side for that war to be "the 6 day war".
My opinion is it is a tragic series of human decisions and lack of technology in communications to prevent further mistakes from being carried out. Israel communication totally screwed up.
I would hope that an incident like this would be rendered "future proof", but then a Malaysian commercial jet liner wouldn't have been turned into confetti over the Ukraine if that was the case.
Also, Pat Tillman was deliberately attacked. They thought he was the enemy. That is why he was deliberately attacked.
It's pure bullshit how the US tried to spin it into heroism for recruiting. A small place in hell resides for those bastards who tried to spin it for their own good.
Anywho, I can see where your point of view resides. I won't count your opinion out and look forward to discussion about the event.
Benjs, it seems like you're responding to a lot more than what I've said here. But to the extent that you're responding to me -- I'm not trying to shut down this discussion. People can talk about whatever they like here. It's not my place to tell people what they can and can't discuss, even if I think the discussion is pointless and premised on an absurd conspiracy theory. The only reason I've even commented here at all is to explain why I don't feel that this thread merits a meaningful response, i.e., that it's a blatant attempt to pick a fight rather than to start a discussion. And I'm tired of fighting with people who insist that those who disagree with them are "losing credibility" simply because they refuse to agree with whatever nonsense is being peddled. Sorry for the bitter tone, but I've just about fed up with the tenor of what passes for discussion on this forum (at least on this topic).
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Has anyone found/heard/seen an official Israeli response to the Al Jazeera documentary? I'm curious what spin will come.
The link at the top was no longer working when I got around to watching, but I was able to catch a late night airing on Al Jazeera America a few nights ago. Really haunting stuff...it stuck with me as I tried to sleep. Documentaries should always be taken with a grain of salt but I found each of the first person stories to be entirely credible. Also, the Israeli radio recordings are damning. They knew it was an American ship.
Comments
then i remembered that those most likely to comment can't...
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
It shows, that (for whatever reason) Israel is above all, even us (the USA)
these are things we were never taught in school, so i share it here.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
this is exactly how extremist ideas get passed down from generation to generation. this is how israel and the united states are creating more terrorists. every person that is murdered like this, and like the war in gaza, someone is left to mourn them. those men have children or other relatives that might make it their life's mission to go on to avenge those murders. it might not be the next generation. maybe a grandson or great-grandson hears about how their grandfather was murdered and then they might be the ones.
if israel would do it 40 years ago, why wouldn't they do it today? is it because they need the US and our billions of dollars in military aid?? regardless, they are capable of doing it again today, with our own weapons we give them, if they choose to do so.
please don't try to minimize this and brush it under the rug, like it has been for the last 40 years.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
I don't think an expiration date should be set on treachery.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
At a bare minimum, discussing these incidents makes some squirm a bit that should squirm a bit.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I'm fighting in favour of reasonable and open discussion here, and have expressed my opposition to things said by both Israeli and Palestinian supporters when in my gut I feel that something is wrong (and I've learnt about delusions of my own this way, or seen things in a completely different light when a conversation is through). I try not to be adversarial, but the reality is that when people have allegiances residing with a semblance of nationalist or religious pride - their allegiances are going to be tested, and they will likely become upset. The fact that this event is being discussed (instead of the ongoing events, or events with clear bearing on events today) likely has to do with the momentum of emotion: people see or hear about something they dislike - they respond. They get no answers that present logic (if they get answers), so they drill in further. They feel more and more emotionally invested until eventually, the fact that someone bites their nails too loudly is likely to set them off.
This particular event is hardly equatable to biting your nails too loudly, but I hope you understand what I'm saying. It saddens me to say this, but it is an absolutely abhorrent failure on the part of Israelis and Israeli supporters (and NOT their government) that they have accepted cushy court-side seats to watch the show of destruction, aggression, and hatred - instead of working to prevent any or all of these traits within their own community. Heavy-handed response to Israeli politics is not the catalyst to unfair and disproportionate global response against Israel: it is a byproduct of years of inappropriate behaviour largely gone unanswered for, combined with maybe an inkling of a wave of global giving a shit.
I can sleep at night now (sometimes), because I read about this, I write about this, I talk about this, I question about this, I make friends because of this, I lose friends because of this: but I exert energy on it. When I first started reading about Israel with a critical mind - I couldn't sleep at night. Because I hadn't read about it, hadn't written about it, hadn't spoken about it (meaningfully at least): hadn't given a shit. The rest of the world is tired of asking hard questions and receiving no good answers. This is not a global epidemic of hatred (in spite of what I truly believed even a year ago) - it is one of concern.
To Israelis who might read this, please, I'm begging you, speak up. Tell your story. Be a spokesperson where your peers aren't. If you can present logic, I will defend you, and I hope I'm not the only one. Anyone's also welcome to message me, of course, and I'm happy to discuss there if you're worried about public condemnation on here. Or if you'd like to explain to me why I'm delusional and wrong about Israel - I'm open to that too.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
* By the way... when I said at a bare minimum, discussing these incidents makes some squirm a bit that should squirm a bit... I mean those directly involved in the attack and the ensuing cover-up (having their dirty secret exposed)- not anyone here!
I don't see Israel doing a strafing run to start the attack if their intention was to pin it on Egypt, a country in which no way did they need US intervention to defeat. It doesn't make sense to me from a strategic standpoint.
Also, please stop with the whole "you are losing street cred, bro" when we are having reasonable discussion. It defeats the purpose of AMT.
Edit-and please really read into what "really" happened behind the scenes from what and who's side for that war to be "the 6 day war".
I would hope that an incident like this would be rendered "future proof", but then a Malaysian commercial jet liner wouldn't have been turned into confetti over the Ukraine if that was the case.
It's pure bullshit how the US tried to spin it into heroism for recruiting. A small place in hell resides for those bastards who tried to spin it for their own good.
Anywho, I can see where your point of view resides. I won't count your opinion out and look forward to discussion about the event.
The link at the top was no longer working when I got around to watching, but I was able to catch a late night airing on Al Jazeera America a few nights ago. Really haunting stuff...it stuck with me as I tried to sleep. Documentaries should always be taken with a grain of salt but I found each of the first person stories to be entirely credible. Also, the Israeli radio recordings are damning. They knew it was an American ship.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
i suggest those that have not seen it, watch it.
they absolutely knew what they were doing.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."