Real time with Bill Maher and Ben Affleck

fife

I don't know how many people watch this show but this one caught my eye.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vln9D81eO60

I don't really know which side I am on ( i think i might be more in the middle) here but it did raise some questions.

Jason P

I am Batman.

Gern Blansten

I love Bill Maher and I haven't watched Friday's episode yet (I was a little busy rocking the fuck out in St Louis) but from what I have seen I'm having trouble following Maher here.

Maher is anti-religious....I get that. I get comparing Islam to Christianity in how bloody it's book can be. We can certainly reconcile Islam's bloody path in the same way we reconcile Christianity's bloody path.

It seems like Maher is going all out by saying that Islam is somehow more dangerous? That I don't get. I also don't see why he is sticking his neck so far out....I would be worried about the radicals cutting my throat if I was as vocal as he is being.

fife

Gern Blansten said:

I love Bill Maher and I haven't watched Friday's episode yet (I was a little busy rocking the fuck out in St Louis) but from what I have seen I'm having trouble following Maher here.

Maher is anti-religious....I get that. I get comparing Islam to Christianity in how bloody it's book can be. We can certainly reconcile Islam's bloody path in the same way we reconcile Christianity's bloody path.

It seems like Maher is going all out by saying that Islam is somehow more dangerous? That I don't get. I also don't see why he is sticking his neck so far out....I would be worried about the radicals cutting my throat if I was as vocal as he is being.

I agree that I don't get what Maher is saying exactly but at the same time i understand alot more than what Ben is saying.

ikiT

His show is a great exchange of ideas, and usually pretty great TV. I watch every episode.
I like Daredevil's, er I mean Batman's, take. He's way smarter than people give him credit for.

Dirtie_Frank

I did not watch the attached clip but saw the show. I believe he was trying to say that liberals in America are quick to bash christianity which he agrees, but are taking back when criticizing muslims. He was basically stating that muslims should be criticized for some of their beliefs like stoning a woman for not marrying the man she was arraigned for or the persecution of gays in muslim countries. Ben think that he is painting the entire muslim community with a broad brush. I believe in a little of both, there needs to be more criticism of the way women are handled in muslim countries and more muslims need to stand up for equal rights.

Jason P

the tiki bomb said:

His show is a great exchange of ideas, and usually pretty great TV. I watch every episode.
I like Daredevil's, er I mean Batman's, take. He's way smarter than people give him credit for.

Add Superman to his resume. His next movie has the potential to rip a hole in the space time continuum. I've seen Time Cop. Shit is for real.

Jason P

Dirtie_Frank said:

I did not watch the attached clip but saw the show. I believe he was trying to say that liberals in America are quick to bash christianity which he agrees, but are taking back when criticizing muslims. He was basically stating that muslims should be criticized for some of their beliefs like stoning a woman for not marrying the man she was arraigned for or the persecution of gays in muslim countries. Ben think that he is painting the entire muslim community with a broad brush. I believe in a little of both, there needs to be more criticism of the way women are handled in muslim countries and more muslims need to stand up for equal rights.

I don't watch the show. How do people on the panel react when other religions are critized?

brianlux

Interesting that this very same clip is now inaccessible where it was posted in the "Reza Aslan On Muslim violence myths" thread (and the discussion ended after that). I was kind of hoping to get some feedback on questions in my post that said this:

Interesting discussion. The question that keeps coming back to me is this: What can we as concerned people and Muslims who are not fanatical about killing anyone who leaves their religion and who are not in favor of oppressing women and homosexuals do to a) convince the rest of the world that this is not a commonly accepted part of Muslim doctrine* and b) change the behavior of those who are violently radical? One of the speakers (the fellow to our right of Maher) in the clip above states that the number of Jihadists and Islamists total about 20% plus add to that the conservative Muslims- that these members of the Muslim faith hold troubling views about human rights toward women and homosexuals. I don't know how accurate these figures are but I don't believe they are by any means the majority. What can be done to stop the oppression by the minority of people believe in oppressing and killing?

The same basic questions can be asked of any fundamentalist religious people. How can we convince fundamentalist Christians to stop bombing everybody in the world who isn't Christian (OK- exaggeration, but you know what I mean.)

To my way of thinking this all just points out how totally messed up fundamentalism in any religion is. It frustrates and infuriates me that many people from many walks of life are so bound up in their beliefs as to cause misery and suffering for others. More people have been killed in the name of their god than anything else in the entire history of humankind.

*I was curious about this point and doing some research found that there is a lot of controversy over the issue of apostasy from Islam ranging from larger numbers of Muslims living in Middle East countries who support the notion of putting to death apostates to many Muslims in the West who are embarrassed by or opposed to that notion.

Gern Blansten

I think if Islam were a larger presence in American life that there would be more criticism from American liberals. I don't get Maher's point on why liberals aren't speaking out against Islam more. I don't see where they have reason to. Muslims aren't the ones trying to put the 10 commandments on public property or have Islamic prayers before city council meetings all over the country....Christians are.

Every so often a radical group pops up and gets everybody freaked out about Islam....remember the Zebra murders? (I read the book as an adult....I was only 5 at the time they occurred...absolutely brutal murders that were supposedly in the name of Islam)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebra_murders

Drowned Out

brianlux said:

Interesting that this very same clip is now inaccessible where it was posted in the "Reza Aslan On Muslim violence myths" thread (and the discussion ended after that). I was kind of hoping to get some feedback on questions in my post that said this:

Interesting discussion. The question that keeps coming back to me is this: What can we as concerned people and Muslims who are not fanatical about killing anyone who leaves their religion and who are not in favor of oppressing women and homosexuals do to a) convince the rest of the world that this is not a commonly accepted part of Muslim doctrine* and b) change the behavior of those who are violently radical? One of the speakers (the fellow to our right of Maher) in the clip above states that the number of Jihadists and Islamists total about 20% plus add to that the conservative Muslims- that these members of the Muslim faith hold troubling views about human rights toward women and homosexuals. I don't know how accurate these figures are but I don't believe they are by any means the majority. What can be done to stop the oppression by the minority of people believe in oppressing and killing?

The same basic questions can be asked of any fundamentalist religious people. How can we convince fundamentalist Christians to stop bombing everybody in the world who isn't Christian (OK- exaggeration, but you know what I mean.)

To my way of thinking this all just points out how totally messed up fundamentalism in any religion is. It frustrates and infuriates me that many people from many walks of life are so bound up in their beliefs as to cause misery and suffering for others. More people have been killed in the name of their god than anything else in the entire history of humankind.

*I was curious about this point and doing some research found that there is a lot of controversy over the issue of apostasy from Islam ranging from larger numbers of Muslims living in Middle East countries who support the notion of putting to death apostates to many Muslims in the West who are embarrassed by or opposed to that notion.

Good questions, Brian. But I think this still somewhat falls into the trap that Azlan mentioned, in that your questions frame the problem as Islamic ones and not national/regional ones. I know the questions are universal in regards to fundamentalism, but Islamic countries have been targets if our war machines for a long time. It's the Christian nations doing the bombing, but we don't promote it as such...religion seems only to be used (by both sides), as a justification for violence when it comes to Islam. If it's true that such a large number of Muslims hold these beliefs, we should consider the demographics of that sample. I would be willing to wager that the people who support violent interpretations come from areas of political instability, violence, and poverty/inequality.
I think the best way we can change public perception and stop oppression by minority groups is to stop our contributions to these conditions. For the public to do this, we need to stop watching/reading corporate news media, or at least be more wary of its role in the discussion's parameters. Stay informed as to the real reasons for war. Recognize the tried and true government selling points that lead to it (almost always 'humanitarian help', or national security threats), and know how to counter them. Stop viewing rhe world from a Christian perspective only (even western atheists are affected by Christianity cultural norms). This superiority complex is a common reason for supporting war. Then use our own tried and (occasionally) true methods of pressuring governments to not participate in the wars. Pressure them to do away with the hypocrisy that condemns our enemies and praises or gives spineless lip service warnings to our allies (ex: Saudi Arabia, Israel, China). That hypocrisy is recognized in the Middle East and is a big propaganda tool for extreme Islam. Apply the same pressures to human rights violations in all regions and religions. Once we show that we are an honest broker for peace, we can get on our soap boxes. Until then, our projected ideals ring hollow. Asking Muslims to do something about our highly politicized views of their religion is akin to asking someone to prove their innocence.

mickeyrat

Drowned Out said:

brianlux said:

Interesting that this very same clip is now inaccessible where it was posted in the "Reza Aslan On Muslim violence myths" thread (and the discussion ended after that). I was kind of hoping to get some feedback on questions in my post that said this:

Interesting discussion. The question that keeps coming back to me is this: What can we as concerned people and Muslims who are not fanatical about killing anyone who leaves their religion and who are not in favor of oppressing women and homosexuals do to a) convince the rest of the world that this is not a commonly accepted part of Muslim doctrine* and b) change the behavior of those who are violently radical? One of the speakers (the fellow to our right of Maher) in the clip above states that the number of Jihadists and Islamists total about 20% plus add to that the conservative Muslims- that these members of the Muslim faith hold troubling views about human rights toward women and homosexuals. I don't know how accurate these figures are but I don't believe they are by any means the majority. What can be done to stop the oppression by the minority of people believe in oppressing and killing?

The same basic questions can be asked of any fundamentalist religious people. How can we convince fundamentalist Christians to stop bombing everybody in the world who isn't Christian (OK- exaggeration, but you know what I mean.)

To my way of thinking this all just points out how totally messed up fundamentalism in any religion is. It frustrates and infuriates me that many people from many walks of life are so bound up in their beliefs as to cause misery and suffering for others. More people have been killed in the name of their god than anything else in the entire history of humankind.

*I was curious about this point and doing some research found that there is a lot of controversy over the issue of apostasy from Islam ranging from larger numbers of Muslims living in Middle East countries who support the notion of putting to death apostates to many Muslims in the West who are embarrassed by or opposed to that notion.

Good questions, Brian. But I think this still somewhat falls into the trap that Azlan mentioned, in that your questions frame the problem as Islamic ones and not national/regional ones. I know the questions are universal in regards to fundamentalism, but Islamic countries have been targets if our war machines for a long time. It's the Christian nations doing the bombing, but we don't promote it as such...religion seems only to be used (by both sides), as a justification for violence when it comes to Islam. If it's true that such a large number of Muslims hold these beliefs, we should consider the demographics of that sample. I would be willing to wager that the people who support violent interpretations come from areas of political instability, violence, and poverty/inequality.
I think the best way we can change public perception and stop oppression by minority groups is to stop our contributions to these conditions. For the public to do this, we need to stop watching/reading corporate news media, or at least be more wary of its role in the discussion's parameters. Stay informed as to the real reasons for war. Recognize the tried and true government selling points that lead to it (almost always 'humanitarian help', or national security threats), and know how to counter them. Stop viewing rhe world from a Christian perspective only (even western atheists are affected by Christianity cultural norms). This superiority complex is a common reason for supporting war. Then use our own tried and (occasionally) true methods of pressuring governments to not participate in the wars. Pressure them to do away with the hypocrisy that condemns our enemies and praises or gives spineless lip service warnings to our allies (ex: Saudi Arabia, Israel, China). That hypocrisy is recognized in the Middle East and is a big propaganda tool for extreme Islam. Apply the same pressures to human rights violations in all regions and religions. Once we show that we are an honest broker for peace, we can get on our soap boxes. Until then, our projected ideals ring hollow. Asking Muslims to do something about our highly politicized views of their religion is akin to asking someone to prove their innocence.

More simply put , who are we to judge?

Drowned Out

Gern Blansten said:

I think if Islam were a larger presence in American life that there would be more criticism from American liberals. I don't get Maher's point on why liberals aren't speaking out against Islam more. I don't see where they have reason to. Muslims aren't the ones trying to put the 10 commandments on public property or have Islamic prayers before city council meetings all over the country....Christians are.

Don't forget the satanists!
Love these stories...

To be placed on the grounds of the Oklahoma state capital:


And another statue that was 'erected' on public property in the greater Vancouver area a few weeks ago:
[Devil with an erection image removed by Admin. All-ages forum nono.]

Gern Blansten

Drowned Out said:

Gern Blansten said:

I think if Islam were a larger presence in American life that there would be more criticism from American liberals. I don't get Maher's point on why liberals aren't speaking out against Islam more. I don't see where they have reason to. Muslims aren't the ones trying to put the 10 commandments on public property or have Islamic prayers before city council meetings all over the country....Christians are.

Don't forget the satanists!
Love these stories...

To be placed on the grounds of the Oklahoma state capital:


And another statue that was 'erected' on public property in the greater Vancouver area a few weeks ago:
[Devil with an erection image removed by Admin. All-ages forum nono.]

good stuff...I am a member of the FFRF (www.ffrf.org) and get a lot of updates on their activities. They are more of a "separation of church and state" organization rather than being anti-religion but their main argument in virtually every lawsuit they file to remove the 10 commandments or other religious items from public property is that allowing those opens up every other religion to do the same. It's amazing how many local towns/cities, etc. have reversed themselves because of that.

brianlux

Drowned Out said:

brianlux said:

Interesting that this very same clip is now inaccessible where it was posted in the "Reza Aslan On Muslim violence myths" thread (and the discussion ended after that). I was kind of hoping to get some feedback on questions in my post that said this:

Interesting discussion. The question that keeps coming back to me is this: What can we as concerned people and Muslims who are not fanatical about killing anyone who leaves their religion and who are not in favor of oppressing women and homosexuals do to a) convince the rest of the world that this is not a commonly accepted part of Muslim doctrine* and b) change the behavior of those who are violently radical? One of the speakers (the fellow to our right of Maher) in the clip above states that the number of Jihadists and Islamists total about 20% plus add to that the conservative Muslims- that these members of the Muslim faith hold troubling views about human rights toward women and homosexuals. I don't know how accurate these figures are but I don't believe they are by any means the majority. What can be done to stop the oppression by the minority of people believe in oppressing and killing?

The same basic questions can be asked of any fundamentalist religious people. How can we convince fundamentalist Christians to stop bombing everybody in the world who isn't Christian (OK- exaggeration, but you know what I mean.)

To my way of thinking this all just points out how totally messed up fundamentalism in any religion is. It frustrates and infuriates me that many people from many walks of life are so bound up in their beliefs as to cause misery and suffering for others. More people have been killed in the name of their god than anything else in the entire history of humankind.

*I was curious about this point and doing some research found that there is a lot of controversy over the issue of apostasy from Islam ranging from larger numbers of Muslims living in Middle East countries who support the notion of putting to death apostates to many Muslims in the West who are embarrassed by or opposed to that notion.

Good questions, Brian. But I think this still somewhat falls into the trap that Azlan mentioned, in that your questions frame the problem as Islamic ones and not national/regional ones. I know the questions are universal in regards to fundamentalism, but Islamic countries have been targets if our war machines for a long time. It's the Christian nations doing the bombing, but we don't promote it as such...religion seems only to be used (by both sides), as a justification for violence when it comes to Islam. If it's true that such a large number of Muslims hold these beliefs, we should consider the demographics of that sample. I would be willing to wager that the people who support violent interpretations come from areas of political instability, violence, and poverty/inequality.
I think the best way we can change public perception and stop oppression by minority groups is to stop our contributions to these conditions. For the public to do this, we need to stop watching/reading corporate news media, or at least be more wary of its role in the discussion's parameters. Stay informed as to the real reasons for war. Recognize the tried and true government selling points that lead to it (almost always 'humanitarian help', or national security threats), and know how to counter them. Stop viewing rhe world from a Christian perspective only (even western atheists are affected by Christianity cultural norms). This superiority complex is a common reason for supporting war. Then use our own tried and (occasionally) true methods of pressuring governments to not participate in the wars. Pressure them to do away with the hypocrisy that condemns our enemies and praises or gives spineless lip service warnings to our allies (ex: Saudi Arabia, Israel, China). That hypocrisy is recognized in the Middle East and is a big propaganda tool for extreme Islam. Apply the same pressures to human rights violations in all regions and religions. Once we show that we are an honest broker for peace, we can get on our soap boxes. Until then, our projected ideals ring hollow. Asking Muslims to do something about our highly politicized views of their religion is akin to asking someone to prove their innocence.

Thanks for good answers, Drowned Out. I can help but think that part of stopping our contribution to those conditions shop include reducing our dependence on oil, especially middle east oil. I've always figured oil extraction is our no. 1 reason for our involvement there.

Those statues- WOW! :-)

Good discussion, but off to work- will check in later.

Drowned Out

brianlux said:

Drowned Out said:

brianlux said:

Interesting that this very same clip is now inaccessible where it was posted in the "Reza Aslan On Muslim violence myths" thread (and the discussion ended after that). I was kind of hoping to get some feedback on questions in my post that said this:

Interesting discussion. The question that keeps coming back to me is this: What can we as concerned people and Muslims who are not fanatical about killing anyone who leaves their religion and who are not in favor of oppressing women and homosexuals do to a) convince the rest of the world that this is not a commonly accepted part of Muslim doctrine* and b) change the behavior of those who are violently radical? One of the speakers (the fellow to our right of Maher) in the clip above states that the number of Jihadists and Islamists total about 20% plus add to that the conservative Muslims- that these members of the Muslim faith hold troubling views about human rights toward women and homosexuals. I don't know how accurate these figures are but I don't believe they are by any means the majority. What can be done to stop the oppression by the minority of people believe in oppressing and killing?

The same basic questions can be asked of any fundamentalist religious people. How can we convince fundamentalist Christians to stop bombing everybody in the world who isn't Christian (OK- exaggeration, but you know what I mean.)

To my way of thinking this all just points out how totally messed up fundamentalism in any religion is. It frustrates and infuriates me that many people from many walks of life are so bound up in their beliefs as to cause misery and suffering for others. More people have been killed in the name of their god than anything else in the entire history of humankind.

*I was curious about this point and doing some research found that there is a lot of controversy over the issue of apostasy from Islam ranging from larger numbers of Muslims living in Middle East countries who support the notion of putting to death apostates to many Muslims in the West who are embarrassed by or opposed to that notion.

Good questions, Brian. But I think this still somewhat falls into the trap that Azlan mentioned, in that your questions frame the problem as Islamic ones and not national/regional ones. I know the questions are universal in regards to fundamentalism, but Islamic countries have been targets if our war machines for a long time. It's the Christian nations doing the bombing, but we don't promote it as such...religion seems only to be used (by both sides), as a justification for violence when it comes to Islam. If it's true that such a large number of Muslims hold these beliefs, we should consider the demographics of that sample. I would be willing to wager that the people who support violent interpretations come from areas of political instability, violence, and poverty/inequality.
I think the best way we can change public perception and stop oppression by minority groups is to stop our contributions to these conditions. For the public to do this, we need to stop watching/reading corporate news media, or at least be more wary of its role in the discussion's parameters. Stay informed as to the real reasons for war. Recognize the tried and true government selling points that lead to it (almost always 'humanitarian help', or national security threats), and know how to counter them. Stop viewing rhe world from a Christian perspective only (even western atheists are affected by Christianity cultural norms). This superiority complex is a common reason for supporting war. Then use our own tried and (occasionally) true methods of pressuring governments to not participate in the wars. Pressure them to do away with the hypocrisy that condemns our enemies and praises or gives spineless lip service warnings to our allies (ex: Saudi Arabia, Israel, China). That hypocrisy is recognized in the Middle East and is a big propaganda tool for extreme Islam. Apply the same pressures to human rights violations in all regions and religions. Once we show that we are an honest broker for peace, we can get on our soap boxes. Until then, our projected ideals ring hollow. Asking Muslims to do something about our highly politicized views of their religion is akin to asking someone to prove their innocence.

Thanks for good answers, Drowned Out. I can help but think that part of stopping our contribution to those conditions shop include reducing our dependence on oil, especially middle east oil. I've always figured oil extraction is our no. 1 reason for our involvement there.

Those statues- WOW! :-)

Good discussion, but off to work- will check in later.

You're absolutely right...pipelines and trade (the petrodollar) being integral parts of the equation.

Gern - that's a good cause. There is a lot if hypocrisy around our laws regarding religious ceremony and it's always surprising to me to see non-Christians backing religious symbols and celebrations for the sake of tradition. To me that's an indicator of how pervasive Christian culture is to our mindsets, and how it likely subconsciously contributes to an 'us vs them' attitude amongst non-Christians in the west, when discussing the Middle East.


Sorry kat!

Drowned Out

mickeyrat said:

Drowned Out said:

brianlux said:

Interesting that this very same clip is now inaccessible where it was posted in the "Reza Aslan On Muslim violence myths" thread (and the discussion ended after that). I was kind of hoping to get some feedback on questions in my post that said this:

Interesting discussion. The question that keeps coming back to me is this: What can we as concerned people and Muslims who are not fanatical about killing anyone who leaves their religion and who are not in favor of oppressing women and homosexuals do to a) convince the rest of the world that this is not a commonly accepted part of Muslim doctrine* and b) change the behavior of those who are violently radical? One of the speakers (the fellow to our right of Maher) in the clip above states that the number of Jihadists and Islamists total about 20% plus add to that the conservative Muslims- that these members of the Muslim faith hold troubling views about human rights toward women and homosexuals. I don't know how accurate these figures are but I don't believe they are by any means the majority. What can be done to stop the oppression by the minority of people believe in oppressing and killing?

The same basic questions can be asked of any fundamentalist religious people. How can we convince fundamentalist Christians to stop bombing everybody in the world who isn't Christian (OK- exaggeration, but you know what I mean.)

To my way of thinking this all just points out how totally messed up fundamentalism in any religion is. It frustrates and infuriates me that many people from many walks of life are so bound up in their beliefs as to cause misery and suffering for others. More people have been killed in the name of their god than anything else in the entire history of humankind.

*I was curious about this point and doing some research found that there is a lot of controversy over the issue of apostasy from Islam ranging from larger numbers of Muslims living in Middle East countries who support the notion of putting to death apostates to many Muslims in the West who are embarrassed by or opposed to that notion.

Good questions, Brian. But I think this still somewhat falls into the trap that Azlan mentioned, in that your questions frame the problem as Islamic ones and not national/regional ones. I know the questions are universal in regards to fundamentalism, but Islamic countries have been targets if our war machines for a long time. It's the Christian nations doing the bombing, but we don't promote it as such...religion seems only to be used (by both sides), as a justification for violence when it comes to Islam. If it's true that such a large number of Muslims hold these beliefs, we should consider the demographics of that sample. I would be willing to wager that the people who support violent interpretations come from areas of political instability, violence, and poverty/inequality.
I think the best way we can change public perception and stop oppression by minority groups is to stop our contributions to these conditions. For the public to do this, we need to stop watching/reading corporate news media, or at least be more wary of its role in the discussion's parameters. Stay informed as to the real reasons for war. Recognize the tried and true government selling points that lead to it (almost always 'humanitarian help', or national security threats), and know how to counter them. Stop viewing rhe world from a Christian perspective only (even western atheists are affected by Christianity cultural norms). This superiority complex is a common reason for supporting war. Then use our own tried and (occasionally) true methods of pressuring governments to not participate in the wars. Pressure them to do away with the hypocrisy that condemns our enemies and praises or gives spineless lip service warnings to our allies (ex: Saudi Arabia, Israel, China). That hypocrisy is recognized in the Middle East and is a big propaganda tool for extreme Islam. Apply the same pressures to human rights violations in all regions and religions. Once we show that we are an honest broker for peace, we can get on our soap boxes. Until then, our projected ideals ring hollow. Asking Muslims to do something about our highly politicized views of their religion is akin to asking someone to prove their innocence.

More simply put , who are we to judge?

Damnit, if only I could be so concise! ). You're right Mickey.

fife

Damm I am so happy that this thread didn't turn in to fight about Islam. to be honest, i was first worried about starting this thread in case people thought i was a racist or something.

however saying that, i don't know if i like the idea that while some of us are christian we can't really talk about negative aspects of other religions. i am still trying to see if that is what Maher was talking about?

dignin

A response from Sam Harris on his blog

Can Liberalism Be Saved From Itself?

"My recent collision with Ben Affleck on Bill Maher’s show, Real Time, has provoked an extraordinary amount of controversy. It seems a postmortem is in order."

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/can-liberalism-be-saved-from-itself

mickeyrat

dignin said:

A response from Sam Harris on his blog

Can Liberalism Be Saved From Itself?

"My recent collision with Ben Affleck on Bill Maher’s show, Real Time, has provoked an extraordinary amount of controversy. It seems a postmortem is in order."

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/can-liberalism-be-saved-from-itself

Like fully considering other polls by the same organization regarding Islam.

mickeyrat

Drowned Out said:

mickeyrat said:

Drowned Out said:

brianlux said:

Interesting that this very same clip is now inaccessible where it was posted in the "Reza Aslan On Muslim violence myths" thread (and the discussion ended after that). I was kind of hoping to get some feedback on questions in my post that said this:

Interesting discussion. The question that keeps coming back to me is this: What can we as concerned people and Muslims who are not fanatical about killing anyone who leaves their religion and who are not in favor of oppressing women and homosexuals do to a) convince the rest of the world that this is not a commonly accepted part of Muslim doctrine* and b) change the behavior of those who are violently radical? One of the speakers (the fellow to our right of Maher) in the clip above states that the number of Jihadists and Islamists total about 20% plus add to that the conservative Muslims- that these members of the Muslim faith hold troubling views about human rights toward women and homosexuals. I don't know how accurate these figures are but I don't believe they are by any means the majority. What can be done to stop the oppression by the minority of people believe in oppressing and killing?

The same basic questions can be asked of any fundamentalist religious people. How can we convince fundamentalist Christians to stop bombing everybody in the world who isn't Christian (OK- exaggeration, but you know what I mean.)

To my way of thinking this all just points out how totally messed up fundamentalism in any religion is. It frustrates and infuriates me that many people from many walks of life are so bound up in their beliefs as to cause misery and suffering for others. More people have been killed in the name of their god than anything else in the entire history of humankind.

*I was curious about this point and doing some research found that there is a lot of controversy over the issue of apostasy from Islam ranging from larger numbers of Muslims living in Middle East countries who support the notion of putting to death apostates to many Muslims in the West who are embarrassed by or opposed to that notion.

Good questions, Brian. But I think this still somewhat falls into the trap that Azlan mentioned, in that your questions frame the problem as Islamic ones and not national/regional ones. I know the questions are universal in regards to fundamentalism, but Islamic countries have been targets if our war machines for a long time. It's the Christian nations doing the bombing, but we don't promote it as such...religion seems only to be used (by both sides), as a justification for violence when it comes to Islam. If it's true that such a large number of Muslims hold these beliefs, we should consider the demographics of that sample. I would be willing to wager that the people who support violent interpretations come from areas of political instability, violence, and poverty/inequality.
I think the best way we can change public perception and stop oppression by minority groups is to stop our contributions to these conditions. For the public to do this, we need to stop watching/reading corporate news media, or at least be more wary of its role in the discussion's parameters. Stay informed as to the real reasons for war. Recognize the tried and true government selling points that lead to it (almost always 'humanitarian help', or national security threats), and know how to counter them. Stop viewing rhe world from a Christian perspective only (even western atheists are affected by Christianity cultural norms). This superiority complex is a common reason for supporting war. Then use our own tried and (occasionally) true methods of pressuring governments to not participate in the wars. Pressure them to do away with the hypocrisy that condemns our enemies and praises or gives spineless lip service warnings to our allies (ex: Saudi Arabia, Israel, China). That hypocrisy is recognized in the Middle East and is a big propaganda tool for extreme Islam. Apply the same pressures to human rights violations in all regions and religions. Once we show that we are an honest broker for peace, we can get on our soap boxes. Until then, our projected ideals ring hollow. Asking Muslims to do something about our highly politicized views of their religion is akin to asking someone to prove their innocence.

More simply put , who are we to judge?

Damnit, if only I could be so concise! ). You're right Mickey.

Well thought out and eloquent response to Brian though. You raised some very good points/questions. So thanks for that.

benjs

mickeyrat said:

Drowned Out said:

mickeyrat said:

Drowned Out said:

brianlux said:

Interesting that this very same clip is now inaccessible where it was posted in the "Reza Aslan On Muslim violence myths" thread (and the discussion ended after that). I was kind of hoping to get some feedback on questions in my post that said this:

Interesting discussion. The question that keeps coming back to me is this: What can we as concerned people and Muslims who are not fanatical about killing anyone who leaves their religion and who are not in favor of oppressing women and homosexuals do to a) convince the rest of the world that this is not a commonly accepted part of Muslim doctrine* and b) change the behavior of those who are violently radical? One of the speakers (the fellow to our right of Maher) in the clip above states that the number of Jihadists and Islamists total about 20% plus add to that the conservative Muslims- that these members of the Muslim faith hold troubling views about human rights toward women and homosexuals. I don't know how accurate these figures are but I don't believe they are by any means the majority. What can be done to stop the oppression by the minority of people believe in oppressing and killing?

The same basic questions can be asked of any fundamentalist religious people. How can we convince fundamentalist Christians to stop bombing everybody in the world who isn't Christian (OK- exaggeration, but you know what I mean.)

To my way of thinking this all just points out how totally messed up fundamentalism in any religion is. It frustrates and infuriates me that many people from many walks of life are so bound up in their beliefs as to cause misery and suffering for others. More people have been killed in the name of their god than anything else in the entire history of humankind.

*I was curious about this point and doing some research found that there is a lot of controversy over the issue of apostasy from Islam ranging from larger numbers of Muslims living in Middle East countries who support the notion of putting to death apostates to many Muslims in the West who are embarrassed by or opposed to that notion.

Good questions, Brian. But I think this still somewhat falls into the trap that Azlan mentioned, in that your questions frame the problem as Islamic ones and not national/regional ones. I know the questions are universal in regards to fundamentalism, but Islamic countries have been targets if our war machines for a long time. It's the Christian nations doing the bombing, but we don't promote it as such...religion seems only to be used (by both sides), as a justification for violence when it comes to Islam. If it's true that such a large number of Muslims hold these beliefs, we should consider the demographics of that sample. I would be willing to wager that the people who support violent interpretations come from areas of political instability, violence, and poverty/inequality.
I think the best way we can change public perception and stop oppression by minority groups is to stop our contributions to these conditions. For the public to do this, we need to stop watching/reading corporate news media, or at least be more wary of its role in the discussion's parameters. Stay informed as to the real reasons for war. Recognize the tried and true government selling points that lead to it (almost always 'humanitarian help', or national security threats), and know how to counter them. Stop viewing rhe world from a Christian perspective only (even western atheists are affected by Christianity cultural norms). This superiority complex is a common reason for supporting war. Then use our own tried and (occasionally) true methods of pressuring governments to not participate in the wars. Pressure them to do away with the hypocrisy that condemns our enemies and praises or gives spineless lip service warnings to our allies (ex: Saudi Arabia, Israel, China). That hypocrisy is recognized in the Middle East and is a big propaganda tool for extreme Islam. Apply the same pressures to human rights violations in all regions and religions. Once we show that we are an honest broker for peace, we can get on our soap boxes. Until then, our projected ideals ring hollow. Asking Muslims to do something about our highly politicized views of their religion is akin to asking someone to prove their innocence.

More simply put , who are we to judge?

Damnit, if only I could be so concise! ). You're right Mickey.

Well thought out and eloquent response to Brian though. You raised some very good points/questions. So thanks for that.

This all reminds me so much of those who dispute the notion that CO2 emissions are the exclusive contributors to global warming. There is plenty written about how scientists who question this notion - which has such widespread belief within the scientific world - basically are ostracized from the scientific community just for not accepting it blindly - even when they have legitimate credentials and follow due scientific process in their work that merely shows that there's no certainty that this causality relationship is accurate (let alone disputing it outright).

Here we are, with an arguably widespread belief that Islam is inherently a violent religion, and anyone with the guts to say that we should question this premise is shot down as quickly as they speak up.

Edit: This doesn't mean I believe that Maher, Harris or Affleck are correct in the things that they say - nor am I saying that global warming is caused by CO2 emissions or anything else. Just meant this in regards to questioning opinions predicated upon notions which are created by societal indoctrination.

ikiT

I think Ben Affleck being cautious, or better put, unabashedly skeptical with a healthy dose of cynicism (in a "Hollywood Elite", liberal kind of way) about the whole situation is completely understandable. All of us have just come through a long-assed decade plus of constantly being lied to about the people who populate that region and been fed nothing but a steady diet of fear. We've drone bombed the snot out of them, supportin' the troops without having to exercise any effort into supporting the ideology of WHY we were at war in the first place.

I'm not saying don't root out the true evil, but labels and blanket generalizations about millions of people aren't super helpful.

benjs

the tiki bomb said:

I think Ben Affleck being cautious, or better put, unabashedly skeptical with a healthy dose of cynicism (in a "Hollywood Elite", liberal kind of way) about the whole situation is completely understandable. All of us have just come through a long-assed decade plus of constantly being lied to about the people who populate that region and been fed nothing but a steady diet of fear. We've drone bombed the snot out of them, supportin' the troops without having to exercise any effort into supporting the ideology of WHY we were at war in the first place.

I'm not saying don't root out the true evil, but labels and blanket generalizations about millions of people aren't super helpful.

I agree entirely. In addition, can you imagine if an author was expected to write a non-fictional book in one sitting, without a chance to seek supporting evidence, with all eyes on them, while dealing with hecklers and opposing opinions? The format of televised interviews, from my perspective, is complete crap. I remember thinking in high school how absurd it was to memorize trigonometric identities, when in the real world, as experts in most fields (certainly in engineering), we are entitled and encouraged to use the resources at our disposal to validate an opinion or fact. Here, the so-called experts have the pressure of a ticking clock, have absolutely no chance to breathe (let alone seek supporting evidence), and some of us in the public are actually basing our opinions based on these statements. How ludicrous. You don't always need to know the answer on the spot, and I don't know why there's such a stigma associated with "I don't know, can you ask me again later so I can research this?"

Jason P

Gern Blansten said:

I think if Islam were a larger presence in American life that there would be more criticism from American liberals. I don't get Maher's point on why liberals aren't speaking out against Islam more. I don't see where they have reason to. Muslims aren't the ones trying to put the 10 commandments on public property or have Islamic prayers before city council meetings all over the country....Christians are.

Every so often a radical group pops up and gets everybody freaked out about Islam....remember the Zebra murders? (I read the book as an adult....I was only 5 at the time they occurred...absolutely brutal murders that were supposedly in the name of Islam)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebra_murders

I believe you are right. If Islam was the majority in America, Affleck would have been attacking instead of defending.

Jearlpam0925

Affleck is an idiot who jumped on a topic because......idiots....

Sam Harris a smart dude, and not entirely off point....

http://whyy.org/cms/radiotimes/2014/10/07/sam-harris-on-spirituality-without-religion/

benjs

Jearlpam0925 said:

Affleck is an idiot who jumped on a topic because......idiots....

Sam Harris a smart dude, and not entirely off point....

http://whyy.org/cms/radiotimes/2014/10/07/sam-harris-on-spirituality-without-religion/

"Affleck is an idiot who jumped on a topic because......idiots...."
Hm. So, in your analysis of a debate, you chose to begin with an ad hominem attack on one of the participants, and your supporting evidence was "because......idiots....".

At least you chose to provide some semblance of supporting evidence for demonstrating Harris' intellect, though I've yet to listen to it yet since I'm at work.

mickeyrat

Topic is too important to throw generalizations around.

Not specific to religion either.

First I'd question the polling data. Sample size? Questions asked and how where they asked?

How can the sample size be large enough in relation to the worlds Muslim believers to net an accurate assessment?

Drowned Out

benjs said:

the tiki bomb said:

I think Ben Affleck being cautious, or better put, unabashedly skeptical with a healthy dose of cynicism (in a "Hollywood Elite", liberal kind of way) about the whole situation is completely understandable. All of us have just come through a long-assed decade plus of constantly being lied to about the people who populate that region and been fed nothing but a steady diet of fear. We've drone bombed the snot out of them, supportin' the troops without having to exercise any effort into supporting the ideology of WHY we were at war in the first place.

I'm not saying don't root out the true evil, but labels and blanket generalizations about millions of people aren't super helpful.

I agree entirely. In addition, can you imagine if an author was expected to write a non-fictional book in one sitting, without a chance to seek supporting evidence, with all eyes on them, while dealing with hecklers and opposing opinions? The format of televised interviews, from my perspective, is complete crap. I remember thinking in high school how absurd it was to memorize trigonometric identities, when in the real world, as experts in most fields (certainly in engineering), we are entitled and encouraged to use the resources at our disposal to validate an opinion or fact. Here, the so-called experts have the pressure of a ticking clock, have absolutely no chance to breathe (let alone seek supporting evidence), and some of us in the public are actually basing our opinions based on these statements. How ludicrous. You don't always need to know the answer on the spot, and I don't know why there's such a stigma associated with "I don't know, can you ask me again later so I can research this?"

:-bd



You can get good information from interviews, but not one that isn't lengthy and set up like a proper debate. A five minute satellite interview with opposing sides will not accomplish much, and the interviewer, who is supposed to act as debate mod, alllllways has an agenda. It's recognizable even when it's my own beliefs being made the agenda.
You do see some informative one on one interviews...tho rately on tv. Im thinking more like podcasts, blog sites, etc that interview people in depth. But again - the questions and guest are almost always chosen to express a preconceived opinion on the topic.

Drowned Out

mickeyrat said:

Drowned Out said:

mickeyrat said:

Drowned Out said:

brianlux said:

Interesting that this very same clip is now inaccessible where it was posted in the "Reza Aslan On Muslim violence myths" thread (and the discussion ended after that). I was kind of hoping to get some feedback on questions in my post that said this:

Interesting discussion. The question that keeps coming back to me is this: What can we as concerned people and Muslims who are not fanatical about killing anyone who leaves their religion and who are not in favor of oppressing women and homosexuals do to a) convince the rest of the world that this is not a commonly accepted part of Muslim doctrine* and b) change the behavior of those who are violently radical? One of the speakers (the fellow to our right of Maher) in the clip above states that the number of Jihadists and Islamists total about 20% plus add to that the conservative Muslims- that these members of the Muslim faith hold troubling views about human rights toward women and homosexuals. I don't know how accurate these figures are but I don't believe they are by any means the majority. What can be done to stop the oppression by the minority of people believe in oppressing and killing?

The same basic questions can be asked of any fundamentalist religious people. How can we convince fundamentalist Christians to stop bombing everybody in the world who isn't Christian (OK- exaggeration, but you know what I mean.)

To my way of thinking this all just points out how totally messed up fundamentalism in any religion is. It frustrates and infuriates me that many people from many walks of life are so bound up in their beliefs as to cause misery and suffering for others. More people have been killed in the name of their god than anything else in the entire history of humankind.

*I was curious about this point and doing some research found that there is a lot of controversy over the issue of apostasy from Islam ranging from larger numbers of Muslims living in Middle East countries who support the notion of putting to death apostates to many Muslims in the West who are embarrassed by or opposed to that notion.

Good questions, Brian. But I think this still somewhat falls into the trap that Azlan mentioned, in that your questions frame the problem as Islamic ones and not national/regional ones. I know the questions are universal in regards to fundamentalism, but Islamic countries have been targets if our war machines for a long time. It's the Christian nations doing the bombing, but we don't promote it as such...religion seems only to be used (by both sides), as a justification for violence when it comes to Islam. If it's true that such a large number of Muslims hold these beliefs, we should consider the demographics of that sample. I would be willing to wager that the people who support violent interpretations come from areas of political instability, violence, and poverty/inequality.
I think the best way we can change public perception and stop oppression by minority groups is to stop our contributions to these conditions. For the public to do this, we need to stop watching/reading corporate news media, or at least be more wary of its role in the discussion's parameters. Stay informed as to the real reasons for war. Recognize the tried and true government selling points that lead to it (almost always 'humanitarian help', or national security threats), and know how to counter them. Stop viewing rhe world from a Christian perspective only (even western atheists are affected by Christianity cultural norms). This superiority complex is a common reason for supporting war. Then use our own tried and (occasionally) true methods of pressuring governments to not participate in the wars. Pressure them to do away with the hypocrisy that condemns our enemies and praises or gives spineless lip service warnings to our allies (ex: Saudi Arabia, Israel, China). That hypocrisy is recognized in the Middle East and is a big propaganda tool for extreme Islam. Apply the same pressures to human rights violations in all regions and religions. Once we show that we are an honest broker for peace, we can get on our soap boxes. Until then, our projected ideals ring hollow. Asking Muslims to do something about our highly politicized views of their religion is akin to asking someone to prove their innocence.

More simply put , who are we to judge?

Damnit, if only I could be so concise! ). You're right Mickey.

Well thought out and eloquent response to Brian though. You raised some very good points/questions. So thanks for that.

Thank you! But no one has called out my glaring mistake; I fell into the same trap I mentioned Brian falling into, in the very next sentence! )

"....your questions frame the problem as Islamic ones and not national/regional ones. I know the questions are universal in regards to fundamentalism, but Islamic countries have been targets if our war machines for a long time....."

I shouldn't have said 'Islamic' the second time....should have been 'middle eastern'.
But hey, i was writhing in pain in an ER observation room, typing on my phone...surprised it made sense at all )

Drowned Out

Jearlpam0925 said:

Affleck is an idiot who jumped on a topic because......idiots....

Sam Harris a smart dude, and not entirely off point....

http://whyy.org/cms/radiotimes/2014/10/07/sam-harris-on-spirituality-without-religion/

Affleck grew up as a family friend and neighbour of one of the most important historians / political activists of our time. On what are you basing your attack on his knowledge?