Hamas Carries Out Public Executions in Gaza - How to Understand Something Like This

dancinacrossthewater

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/23/world/middleeast/israel-gaza.html?_r=0

Alright, I started this thread not to demonize Hamas, but to try and see if folks on this board, including those from whom I'm the farthest removed in terms of opinion on the middle east, can have some kind of reasonable discussion about it.

The story behind the story here is NOT just "All of Hamas are a bunch of psychotic murderers who terrorize their own population", but it's also not just "this is all a response to Israeli oppression so this kind of behaviour is completely excusable. Go Hamas." It's somewhere in the middle. Let's see if we can find it.

dancinacrossthewater

note - if you click on the link, the pic attached to the story is pretty disturbing

badbrains

dancinacrossthewater said:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/23/world/middleeast/israel-gaza.html?_r=0

Alright, I started this thread not to demonize Hamas, but to try and see if folks on this board, including those from whom I'm the farthest removed in terms of opinion on the middle east, can have some kind of reasonable discussion about it.

The story behind the story here is NOT just "All of Hamas are a bunch of psychotic murderers who terrorize their own population", but it's also not just "this is all a response to Israeli oppression so this kind of behaviour is completely excusable. Go Hamas." It's somewhere in the middle. Let's see if we can find it.

Sorry bro, but EVERY country does this. It's called espionage. Us has done it as has many many other countries. What you expect them to do, be given community service for spying or collaborating with Israel? This is a non issue.

dancinacrossthewater

Public executions in front of civilians are a non-issue? Seriously?

badbrains

dancinacrossthewater said:

Public executions in front of civilians are a non-issue? Seriously?

Ya, non issue. Go on YouTube, videos all over the place of death. People are desensitized. You have a country bombing the shit out of them, massacring them indiscriminately, babies, women, children, everyone is fair game including animals, you think public executions is gonna do anything to these people? With everything they've seen? Here, how about the people that found this? How do you think they feel pulling this from the rubble......

https://twitter.com/gazaglobal/status/502829405652398083

dancinacrossthewater

Right see this is what I'm saying. Pulling a foot out of rubble doesn't mean it's ok to publicly execute people, no matter what they've done. I don't buy that.

dancinacrossthewater

Like are you saying you're in favour of the executions?

dancinacrossthewater

Suffering doesn't mean you have to right be cruel.

Same goes for Jews.

dancinacrossthewater

It makes cruelty more understandable, but it doesn't excuse it.

badbrains

dancinacrossthewater said:

Like are you saying you're in favour of the executions?

Let me ask u a question. Say it was reversed, say it was 20 idf soldiers who gave out strategic plans to Hamas. And Hamas used those plans to kill the platoon of idf soldiers or whoever. And Israel did an investigation into it, found out it was a group of idf soldiers, what would you do?

jeffbr

I think I'm somewhere down the middle. I agree with Badbrains. They were punished for treason. Treason during a "war" no less. However, I do think they're barbaric in their approach, and clearly tried to instill fear in their own people (so it was more than just punishing criminals for their crimes - they are terrorizing their own people). Hauling them out of jail, taking them into public places including outside of a mosque, shooting them like dogs, and then having everyone yell "God is great" is something I couldn't condone or understand, but I don't understand wacky religious folk in general, so who knows.

dancinacrossthewater

Good question, seriously. Not execute them publicly, that's for sure. Who know what happened in each of these stories?

dancinacrossthewater

Here's my problem with your argument.
On the one hand you're saying it's a war situation, so wartime rules apply, treason = execution, etc.
On the other hand, you're rightly (in my opinion) decrying the imbalance of power between Israel and Palestine and the abuses Israel has inflicted as a result.

If you really back a war situation and war mentality, then might makes right, and that's it. But that's exactly what we're trying to move beyond. Might doesn't make right. Or it shouldn't.

badbrains

dancinacrossthewater said:

Good question, seriously. Not execute them publicly, that's for sure. Who know what happened in each of these stories?

Then where would u do it? They have no courts, Israel destroyed pretty much everything in Gaza. Where would you like them to do it? And I agree with Jeff, they def did it to scare their own people.

dancinacrossthewater

I dunno man. It's a brutal situation. This is exactly what the founding generation of Israelis became. It was like, "after the Holocaust, we're gonna make ourselves so hardcore that nobody will be able to fuck with us again." And it worked - Israel is militarily dominant now - but the cycle of violence hasn't stopped. If Hamas does end up liberating Palestine relying on this kind of mentality, I feel like the pattern will continue repeating itself.

But hey, I guess in the end you have to look after your own peeps. Sad it has to be like that.

badbrains

dancinacrossthewater said:

I dunno man. It's a brutal situation. This is exactly what the founding generation of Israelis became. It was like, "after the Holocaust, we're gonna make ourselves so hardcore that nobody will be able to fuck with us again." And it worked - Israel is militarily dominant now - but the cycle of violence hasn't stopped. If Hamas does end up liberating Palestine relying on this kind of mentality, I feel like the pattern will continue repeating itself.

But hey, I guess in the end you have to look after your own peeps. Sad it has to be like that.

Let's be clear on 1 thing, Israel is a military mite BECAUSE of the US. Take away their tanks and apaches, different story.

dancinacrossthewater

The idea is to get beyond might makes right, though? But that never happens to be people who have been systematically abused. You get hurt brutally, you learn that brutality is the way to survive.

dancinacrossthewater

I mean, is the goal for Hamas to be as hardcore as the IDF? Shit just keeps getting passed down then.

I can't believe I'm actually gonna quote a PJ line here, as that's like the cheesiest thing to do of all time, but what the hell.

"Suppose I abused you...just passing it on downnnnnnn"

dancinacrossthewater

Anyway this is exactly the kind of thinking that has to stop.

PhillyCrownOfThorns

badbrains said:

dancinacrossthewater said:

I dunno man. It's a brutal situation. This is exactly what the founding generation of Israelis became. It was like, "after the Holocaust, we're gonna make ourselves so hardcore that nobody will be able to fuck with us again." And it worked - Israel is militarily dominant now - but the cycle of violence hasn't stopped. If Hamas does end up liberating Palestine relying on this kind of mentality, I feel like the pattern will continue repeating itself.

But hey, I guess in the end you have to look after your own peeps. Sad it has to be like that.

Let's be clear on 1 thing, Israel is a military mite BECAUSE of the US. Take away their tanks and apaches, different story.

Let's be clear on another, Islamic militants will be armed as long as Iran, Qatar, Turkey, Russia and whatever other country has an agenda to keep the war-mongering alive. It's cheaper to wage war with others from afar…

As far as Hamas killing for treason, whatever floats your boat. If that is how you want to govern and show the world… knock yourself out. "We the people!" #gaza

Hard to tell from the various reports, 11 of the 17 had some sort of due process in the Gazan court system. The other 6… I guess it wasn't their lucky day. Just a bad beat.

I don't have an official count, but by my calculations, Hamas has killed as many Palestinians as Israeli's during the last month.

badbrains

PhillyCrownOfThorns said:

badbrains said:

dancinacrossthewater said:

I dunno man. It's a brutal situation. This is exactly what the founding generation of Israelis became. It was like, "after the Holocaust, we're gonna make ourselves so hardcore that nobody will be able to fuck with us again." And it worked - Israel is militarily dominant now - but the cycle of violence hasn't stopped. If Hamas does end up liberating Palestine relying on this kind of mentality, I feel like the pattern will continue repeating itself.

But hey, I guess in the end you have to look after your own peeps. Sad it has to be like that.

Let's be clear on 1 thing, Israel is a military mite BECAUSE of the US. Take away their tanks and apaches, different story.

Let's be clear on another, Islamic militants will be armed as long as Iran, Qatar, Turkey, Russia and whatever other country has an agenda to keep the war-mongering alive. It's cheaper to wage war with others from afar…

As far as Hamas killing for treason, whatever floats your boat. If that is how you want to govern and show the world… knock yourself out. "We the people!" #gaza

Hard to tell from the various reports, 11 of the 17 had some sort of due process in the Gazan court system. The other 6… I guess it wasn't their lucky day. Just a bad beat.

I don't have an official count, but by my calculations, Hamas has killed as many Palestinians as Israeli's during the last month.

You obviously haven't read my posts because I was the first to report Qatar was arming Hamas and just bought around 11 billion in military equipment. You must of missed it. As for the Hamas killing more or the same as Israel, well, you lost me and others there. But please, continue.........

Edit-please, tell us what you'd do if same scenario I wrote out for dancing on water? Mite have to look up a little to see the question I posted to him.

badbrains

Phillycrown, you will not convince me or others about how much worse Hamas is then the leaders of Israel. I totally understand your position on this because correct me if I'm wrong, but you're from Israel? Or Jewish? I know you wrote it somewhere. But anyways, it doesn't take much to see how horrible Israel's actions have been. If you don't see it, then I don't know what else I could say. The images are imprinted in my brain for life. This oppression has to stop and you know it. It's been over 60 years and hasn't worked, well it has for Israel's land grab. But for peace, it hasn't and won't work.

dancinacrossthewater

It's not about who's worse though. I don't think Palestinian liberation through Hamas will actually lead to peace in the region, which is what needs to happen.

I hear your frustration, though, bb, and I wouldn't blame you for saying fuck peace, just liberation and autonomy at any cost.

Only problem is, that's exactly what Israel said 65 years ago...

Byrnzie

dancinacrossthewater said:

Good question, seriously. Not execute them publicly, that's for sure. Who know what happened in each of these stories?

Shouldn't all executions be carried out in public? I mean, if the point of executing people is to deter others then surely they should all be carried out in public instead of behind closed doors.

gimmesometruth27

Byrnzie said:

dancinacrossthewater said:

Good question, seriously. Not execute them publicly, that's for sure. Who know what happened in each of these stories?

Shouldn't all executions be carried out in public? I mean, if the point of executing people is to deter others then surely they should all be carried out in public instead of behind closed doors.

i agree.

what good is a deterrent when less than a dozen people actually witness it?

also, if you are gonna kill people to keep people from doing something, should it not be made illegal to be carried out by people like doctors who swear an oath to do no harm to human beings??

brianlux

Never mind. Fuck it. Fuck me...

dancinacrossthewater

Byrnzie said:

dancinacrossthewater said:

Good question, seriously. Not execute them publicly, that's for sure. Who know what happened in each of these stories?

Shouldn't all executions be carried out in public? I mean, if the point of executing people is to deter others then surely they should all be carried out in public instead of behind closed doors.

Are you in favour of these executions Byrnzie?

Byrnzie

dancinacrossthewater said:

Byrnzie said:

dancinacrossthewater said:

Good question, seriously. Not execute them publicly, that's for sure. Who know what happened in each of these stories?

Shouldn't all executions be carried out in public? I mean, if the point of executing people is to deter others then surely they should all be carried out in public instead of behind closed doors.

Are you in favour of these executions Byrnzie?

Why would I be?

PJ_Soul

Wtf, this is the weirdest thread in a while. 8-}

dancinacrossthewater

dancinacrossthewater said:

Byrnzie said:

dancinacrossthewater said:

Good question, seriously. Not execute them publicly, that's for sure. Who know what happened in each of these stories?

Shouldn't all executions be carried out in public? I mean, if the point of executing people is to deter others then surely they should all be carried out in public instead of behind closed doors.

Are you in favour of these executions Byrnzie?

Well it sounded like when you were supporting the rationale for these executions to be public that you were in favour of them occurring. I could be wrong.

Byrnzie

dancinacrossthewater said:

Well it sounded like when you were supporting the rationale for these executions to be public that you were in favour of them occurring. I could be wrong.

There's no 'could' about it.