Gaza ***GRAPHIC PICS***

JC29856

dankind said:

Is there such a thing as a "middle of nowhere" in Gaza? It all seems to be densely populated.

(Edit: I suppose the bombed-out ruins are likely less populated right now.)

there are middle of nowhere areas in gaza, not gaza city

JimmyV

JC29856 said:

so who is responsible for civilian deaths
1. the side firing from or near hotels, UN shelters, schools, hospitals (no dead caused by firing from)
2. the side firing at hotels, UN shelters, schools, hospitals (all dead caused by firing at)

The answer is both, and you are giving Hamas a pass when you say "no dead caused by firing from". If they are deliberately placing firing nests next to hotels and and populated areas in an attempt to make those hotels and populated areas targets then, yes, they do bare some of the responsibility when those targets are hit. We can argue who is more responsible, but I think most of us in this conversation do agree that Israel's tactics have been over the top and are inexcusable. That just does not mean Hamas is without culpability in this.

dankind

JC29856 said:

and look what do you know... the official hamas terrorist human shield manual
(we should send the idf to aruba to locate natalie)

http://nypost.com/2014/08/05/hamas-manual-details-civilian-death-plan-israel/

OK, so two things that reek of bullshit:
1. It's in the Post.
2. It was discovered by IDF.

Having said that, if this manual is legitimate, I think that we can all agree that such a strategy is deplorable and that the authors of the Shuja’iya Brigade's "Introduction to the City War" should most certainly stand trial for war crimes alongside their Israeli counterparts at The Hague, with this manual as damning evidence.

Again, my bullshit meter is high on this one, but if it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that this is in fact a manual that was authored by members of this particular military wing of Hamas, then justice should be served.

rafie

Let me start off by saying to jc, it is much more easy to take you seriously when you verbalize yourself the way you have done over the last few posts concerning the human shield issue as opposed to the trolling and anal sex references I keep seeing from you.
You make some good points here, but like some others said here, I also believe that making use of human shields means to delibaretly put civilians in harms way, as seen in the video that startes this debate (fimally a debate instead of an arguement.....). You do not have to strap a child to the rocket launcher to turn him into a human shield in my opinion, it is enough to fire that rocket next to his home/school.

benjs

JimmyV said:

I haven't had coffee yet so this may come across a bit clunky.

I wasn't thinking about human shields when I saw that clip so much as I was thinking about deliberately placing civilians in harms way and hoping to create collateral damage. Maybe those terms all mean the same thing, but "human shield" to me has always implied hiding behind civilians in some way. I guess there is an interpretation to be made here about exactly what the missile crew's intentions were.

What I saw was the rocket being set up in the afternoon, wires being run to fire that rocket from another locale, those who were going to fire the rocket leaving Dodge, and then the rocket being fired in the morning. This was in a populated area with at least one hotel containing members of the international press corps. We saw pictures last week I believe of a press hotel being hit by Israel and it got me wondering...did the same thing happen there?

Hamas or whoever else fired that rocket, they were long gone when it went off. The civilians were not. We have heard repeatedly that these rockets are "symbolic", so it almost doesn't matter what the target was. To me, the target of that operation was not Israel. It was the civilians in those buildings who would increase the casualty count, create more horrifying pictures to be spread worldwide, further turn the tide of public opinion against Israel.

Maybe that is the same discussion as the "human shields" conversation. I don't know. Either way, I find it disgusting and reprehensible. Israel's conduct throughout has been heavy handed and horrifying. But seeing some in Gaza deliberately provoking a civilian slaughter - for the first time on video that I had seen - outraged me. That is why I posted it.

JC, I will try to look through your posts with a closer eye later when I have some more time. I'm sure there are many more points there I failed to address.

If your movements are restricted, your goods and services flow is restricted, your voice is restricted, your families and buildings are dropping like flies, you are in charge of a people in the same scenario, and your cries go out to deaf ears of both the people putting you in that situation, as well as the world at large - what courses of action remain? To those who say that Hamas acts in morally reprehensible ways in the interest of public relations, I ask in all seriousness - after witnessing the ineffective nature of inaction, could you personally propose a better way?

I have said here that I think now is the time for Palestinian militant groups lay down their arms since the world is now watching, but the context defines the morality of the actions of Hamas. If the context were different and liberties were not being infringed upon, Hamas would be 100% morally, ethically, and politically responsible for these atrocities. Based on Israeli restrictions, they are not: they have chosen a disturbing way of fighting, but how they choose to deal with the current circumstances is their prerogative. if Israel is honestly in favour of the destruction of Hamas out of care and concern for Palestinian and Israeli safety, and Hamas is honestly for the destruction of Israel in spite of Palestinian lives, give the Palestinian people their autonomy: where rockets from Palestinian regions into Israeli regions will be seen globally and irrefutably as terrorism. Only then can Hamas can be held morally, ethically and politically accountable for a lack of concern for the value of human life. Until Israel does that, it is not legally permissible by international law to wage war on Hamas.

JC29856

who is responsible for the Palestinians safety? hamas or occupier israel?
does anyone expect the rocket launchers to fire in the middle of fields?
what about israels command centers in tel aviv and jerusalem?

JimmyV

benjs said:

JimmyV said:

I haven't had coffee yet so this may come across a bit clunky.

I wasn't thinking about human shields when I saw that clip so much as I was thinking about deliberately placing civilians in harms way and hoping to create collateral damage. Maybe those terms all mean the same thing, but "human shield" to me has always implied hiding behind civilians in some way. I guess there is an interpretation to be made here about exactly what the missile crew's intentions were.

What I saw was the rocket being set up in the afternoon, wires being run to fire that rocket from another locale, those who were going to fire the rocket leaving Dodge, and then the rocket being fired in the morning. This was in a populated area with at least one hotel containing members of the international press corps. We saw pictures last week I believe of a press hotel being hit by Israel and it got me wondering...did the same thing happen there?

Hamas or whoever else fired that rocket, they were long gone when it went off. The civilians were not. We have heard repeatedly that these rockets are "symbolic", so it almost doesn't matter what the target was. To me, the target of that operation was not Israel. It was the civilians in those buildings who would increase the casualty count, create more horrifying pictures to be spread worldwide, further turn the tide of public opinion against Israel.

Maybe that is the same discussion as the "human shields" conversation. I don't know. Either way, I find it disgusting and reprehensible. Israel's conduct throughout has been heavy handed and horrifying. But seeing some in Gaza deliberately provoking a civilian slaughter - for the first time on video that I had seen - outraged me. That is why I posted it.

JC, I will try to look through your posts with a closer eye later when I have some more time. I'm sure there are many more points there I failed to address.

If your movements are restricted, your goods and services flow is restricted, your voice is restricted, your families and buildings are dropping like flies, you are in charge of a people in the same scenario, and your cries go out to deaf ears of both the people putting you in that situation, as well as the world at large - what courses of action remain? To those who say that Hamas acts in morally reprehensible ways in the interest of public relations, I ask in all seriousness - after witnessing the ineffective nature of inaction, could you personally propose a better way?

I have said here that I think now is the time for Palestinian militant groups lay down their arms since the world is now watching, but the context defines the morality of the actions of Hamas. If the context were different and liberties were not being infringed upon, Hamas would be 100% morally, ethically, and politically responsible for these atrocities. Based on Israeli restrictions, they are not: they have chosen a disturbing way of fighting, but how they choose to deal with the current circumstances is their prerogative. if Israel is honestly in favour of the destruction of Hamas out of care and concern for Palestinian and Israeli safety, and Hamas is honestly for the destruction of Israel in spite of Palestinian lives, give the Palestinian people their autonomy: where rockets from Palestinian regions into Israeli regions will be seen globally and irrefutably as terrorism. Only then can Hamas can be held morally, ethically and politically accountable for a lack of concern for the value of human life. Until Israel does that, it is not legally permissible by international law to wage war on Hamas.

I feel we have outlined a better way, repeatedly. The move was to stop firing a week ago, and announce to the world they were doing so. Then dare Israel to do the same. If they refused, there could no longer be any serious doubt whether or not Israel was the aggressor and at fault in Gaza. And if the Israeli shells and bombs kept coming, all that blood would be entirely on Israel's hands. They had the world's attention and an opportunity to change the narrative. Even the U.S. media would have a hard time spinning a story that didn't involve rockets being fired from Gaza, only a storm of fire into Gaza.

Hamas didn't do that. Hamas kept firing weapons whose only success was getting Palestinians and others in Gaza killed. Yes, I absolutely think there was a better way.

rafie

JC29856 said:

who is responsible for the Palestinians safety? hamas or occupier israel?
does anyone expect the rocket launchers to fire in the middle of fields?
what about israels command centers in tel aviv and jerusalem?

You raise a good point about the responsibility for the palestinians safety. Personaly, i think that both sides need to share the responsibility with the palestinian leadership taking the bulk. Meaning, do not fire next to hospital/schools/hotels...
Your last sentance is not really relevant. The hamas rockets have no guiding systems to aim at specific buildings, rather they just point and shoot in the general vicinity and hope to hit something. Besides that, there are no security command posts in the southern settlements of israel that have recieved the vast majority of the rockets over the past 14 years.

JC29856

Israel's motivation for stopping the massacre was the hault of rocket fire or simply because it took them 4 weeks to finish "mowing the lawn"?

rssesq

Common zio hollyweird beliefs? I hope not.
http://www.tmz.com/2014/08/07/joan-rivers-rants-palestine-civilian-deaths-israel-hamas-video/

Who could blame her hubby for murkin himself all those years ago.

JimmyV

JC29856 said:

Israel's motivation for stopping the massacre was the hault of rocket fire or simply because it took them 4 weeks to finish "mowing the lawn"?

This is exactly my point. Israel wanted to "mow the lawn". The rocket fire gave them cover to do so.

hedonist

rssesq said:

Common zio hollyweird beliefs? I hope not.
http://www.tmz.com/2014/08/07/joan-rivers-rants-palestine-civilian-deaths-israel-hamas-video/

Who could blame her hubby for murkin himself all those years ago.

I assume by "murkin" you mean committed suicide? Classy.

I'm no fan of Joan, but c'mon.

(also, what does zio hollyweird mean? Zionists? I don't know but if so, most of that industry isn't even close to her views)

PhillyCrownOfThorns

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4555937,00.html

At least we know Hamas is ready when the truce breaks down. There are some amazing pictures of uniformed pictures "jihad" strolling Gaza cities. At least the fighters are protected...

rgambs

PhillyCrownOfThorns said:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4555937,00.html

At least we know Hamas is ready when the truce breaks down. There are some amazing pictures of uniformed pictures "jihad" strolling Gaza cities. At least the fighters are protected...

if bombs dropped in your neighborhood would you not put on a uniform and march in the streets?

PhillyCrownOfThorns

rgambs said:

PhillyCrownOfThorns said:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4555937,00.html

At least we know Hamas is ready when the truce breaks down. There are some amazing pictures of uniformed pictures "jihad" strolling Gaza cities. At least the fighters are protected...

if bombs dropped in your neighborhood would you not put on a uniform and march in the streets?

We have pictures of lots of dead people during a war without the site of one jihadist during battle

Now, during truce, they are marching the streets like the old fashioned German army.

In 12 hours, they will be back in hiding lobbing missles into Israel leaving the rest of the civilian population exposed to warfare.

Hamas has an agenda and it does not include protecting Gazans.

rafie

rgambs said:

PhillyCrownOfThorns said:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4555937,00.html

At least we know Hamas is ready when the truce breaks down. There are some amazing pictures of uniformed pictures "jihad" strolling Gaza cities. At least the fighters are protected...

if bombs dropped in your neighborhood would you not put on a uniform and march in the streets?

you could say the exact same thing about the Israeli soldiers....

JC29856

PhillyCrownOfThorns said:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4555937,00.html

At least we know Hamas is ready when the truce breaks down. There are some amazing pictures of uniformed pictures "jihad" strolling Gaza cities. At least the fighters are protected...

at least we know this is an unbiased source...Roi Kais

JC29856

http://www.thecactusland.com/2014/08/what-if-children-dying-in-gaza-were-jews.html

It's unimaginable that if a Hamas rocket had landed in a park and killed four Israeli children that Ms. Power would have begun her remarks this way:

"The United States is deeply concerned about the Israeli incursion into Gaza and the dangerous escalation of hostilities in the region..."

Why is this inconceivable? Because Ms. Power and the government she represents support Israeli apartheid and simply do not value the lives of Palestinian children the same way they value the lives of Israeli children.

JC29856

they sure are pushy...

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/cabinet-approves-loyalty-oath-but-only-for-non-jewish-new-citizens-1.318212

http://jhaines6.wordpress.com/2012/11/19/cynthia-mckinney-drops-bombshell-candidates-to-sign-pledges-of-support-for-israel/

JimmyV

When anyone starts demanding pledges be signed it is an indication they know support for their cause is weakening. Otherwise there is no reason for the pledge.

In a way this is a good sign. Support for Israel is wavering.