Imagine That -- I’m Still Anti-War

dankind

chuckle break (and oddly apropos):
http://youtu.be/ke5Mr5eCF2U

brianlux

^^^ "Authentic frontier gibberish" ) LMAO!!

Byrnzie

dancinacrossthewater said:

I don't think Israel's very worried about The Hague. I respect what The Hague does, but if you charge Israel you have to charge Hamas too.

I know we disagree here, but let's try and do it civilly.

Israel's crimes dwarf those of Hamas.

You just need to look at the past reports from all of the major human rights organizations to see that. Take any report from the investigations carried out into Cast Lead 2008-2009 - Amnesty, HRW, the Goldstone Report, etc - and approx 80-90% of the war crimes they deal with are those committed by Israel. Not really surprising when you consider the numbers of casualties on both sides.

Byrnzie

rr165892 said:

Byrnzie,In reality the resolution the "Whole World"recognizes Dosent and won't carry much weight here.

Why did you put "whole World" in quotes?

When 167 countries support the two state solution based on U.N 242, and 6 countries vote against it - Israel, the U.S, Canada, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Paulau - does that not constitute the whole World? Essentially it does.

dancinacrossthewater

Alright, Byrnzie and some others, I know this article will bother you, but give it a read. If you disagree with it I'm happy to hear why as long as it's not "This article is lies lies" etc etc. I's an opinion piece, so the author is not putting it forward as hard fact, but it does articulate fairly well some of what I've been trying to say.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/touch/story.html?id=10079663

By Sayeh Hassan, Ottawa Citizen July 31, 2014

While ground-level coverage of the conflict between Israel and Hamas has been extensive, far too few in the media have asked Hamas spokesmen an obvious question: Why?

Why did Hamas instigate this war by firing hundreds of missiles and mortar shells in the weeks before Israel launched its operation? Why is Hamas continuing to launch missiles despite Israel’s largely successful efforts to shoot them down with the Iron Dome system? Why, on July 15, did Hamas reject an Egyptian ceasefire plan that was endorsed by the United Nations, accepted by Israel, and would have prevented the ground incursion in the first place? And why is Hamas continuing a conflict it is clearly losing and for which its fellow Palestinians have paid so dear a price?

These questions cannot be answered without a clear-eyed examination of Hamas’ motivations and those of one of its chief sponsors: the Islamic Republic of Iran. As an Iranian-Canadian who is deeply involved in the Iranian democracy movement, it has become all too clear to me that the Israel-Hamas war is just the latest painful symptom of the burgeoning relationship between Tehran and Palestinian terrorist groups. Tragically, Israelis and Gazans suffer as a result.

dancinacrossthewater

n July 23, Ayatollah Khamenei called for the arming of Palestinian terrorist groups in the West Bank. This should not be seen as an empty threat, given the fact that many of more than 2,000 missiles fired at Israel in recent weeks were either supplied by Iran or made in Gaza with Iranian technology. It is particularly disturbing to think of the devastating results – for both sides – were Hamas able to fire missiles from locations like Bethlehem, Ramallah, and the hills outside Jerusalem.

In the same remarks, Khamenei declared: “The armed resistance by the Palestinians is the only way to confront Israel … the only way to solve this problem is full annihilation and destruction of the Zionist regime.” By this, of course, Khamenei means the end of Israel: a member state of the United Nations and the only advanced democracy in the Middle East. It is on this point where Hamas and Tehran are kindred spirits.

The Hamas Covenant states that all of Palestine (in which it includes Israel) must be governed under Sharia Law and cannot be ceded to a non-Islamic state. Article 13 of the Covenant further declares: “Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement … There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through jihad.”

Imagine how these words read to Gazans who want nothing more than for their children to enjoy peace, prosperity, and the everyday benefits that come with liberal democracy. Further consider how this rejectionist language (and the violence it inspires) undermines Palestinian moderates who have eschewed violence and embraced the path of negotiations with Israel.

After Israel evacuated its citizens and soldiers from Gaza in 2005, Hamas was able to seize control of the territory in less than two years. How long would it take an emboldened Hamas, with Iranian backing, to do likewise should Israel withdraw from the West Bank? Such a prospect is as much a threat to Mahmoud Abbas and moderate Palestinians as it is to Israelis.

dancinacrossthewater

Many who have watched the conflict over the past few weeks have made the fundamental error of viewing it as a national struggle between Israelis versus Palestinians. In reality, an extremist segment of the Palestinian leadership – Hamas along with other terror groups – has effectively hijacked the Palestinian national movement in the name of Islamism.

The agenda isn’t about securing Palestinian rights or opposing Israeli policies; it’s about securing an Islamic state and opposing Israel’s existence. The vision offered by Hamas, and paid for by Iran, cannot be detached from what has happened in Iraq and Syria, and the ongoing battle between Sunni jihadis and Shia jihadis across the region.

Having lived under the sort of regime Hamas intends to create in Gaza, I know firsthand that Hamas is foremost a threat to the Palestinians themselves. And I know that, while Israelis may be Tehran’s sworn enemy, the Palestinian people are nothing more than pawns in the radical scheme of Iran’s ayatollahs.

mickeyrat

Byrnzie said:

speaks volumes doesnt it?

rssesq

Is this the way most israeli americans feel? I should hope not.
http://www.tmz.com/2014/08/07/joan-rivers-rants-palestine-civilian-deaths-israel-hamas-video/

Who could blame her hubby for murkin himself all those years ago.

dancinacrossthewater

mickeyrat said:

Byrnzie said:

speaks volumes doesnt it?

guys, this is a sarcastic anti-israel twitter account. this is just some dude spouting off anti-israel shit.

dancinacrossthewater

see Byrnzie, posting stuff like that is not helpful in any way

rr165892

Byrnzie said:

rr165892 said:

Byrnzie,In reality the resolution the "Whole World"recognizes Dosent and won't carry much weight here.

Why did you put "whole World" in quotes?

When 167 countries support the two state solution based on U.N 242, and 6 countries vote against it - Israel, the U.S, Canada, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Paulau - does that not constitute the whole World? Essentially it does.

What does a resolution look like? A resolution looks like the resolution that's already accepted by the whole World, and which has been repeatedly blocked by the U.S, which uses it's power of automatic veto to prevent it's implementation. But I know you don't care about these details. And once again you continue pretending that anybody in this thread has called for 'more violence'. I'm not sure why you insist on perpetuating this fantasy.

I was referencing the resolution you mentioned above.Im driving so I just used quotes to show you what I was talking about.Sorry for confusion.
Also my point that it won't matter what the rest of the world thinks.We(USA)will do what is in our best interest anyway.regardless of world view.

PJ_Soul

dancinacrossthewater said:

So if Israel relinquished air, sea, and land crossing control over Gaza, it'd be a start. I agree.

Lol. So you'd like to see a 180 degree flip of the situation.

PJ_Soul

Byrnzie said:

rr165892 said:

Byrnzie,In reality the resolution the "Whole World"recognizes Dosent and won't carry much weight here.

Why did you put "whole World" in quotes?

When 167 countries support the two state solution based on U.N 242, and 6 countries vote against it - Israel, the U.S, Canada, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Paulau - does that not constitute the whole World? Essentially it does.

I hardly think that the exclusion of all of North America still constitutes the "whole world".

PJ_Soul

dancinacrossthewater said:

see Byrnzie, posting stuff like that is not helpful in any way

Agreed. Posting spoof twitter accounts is definitely not congruent with how Byrnzie tell us how he makes only good points.

mickeyrat

dancinacrossthewater said:

mickeyrat said:

Byrnzie said:

speaks volumes doesnt it?

guys, this is a sarcastic anti-israel twitter account. this is just some dude spouting off anti-israel shit.

be that as it may, the math here still fits. That IS what the Israeli government states isnt it? That they are responding in a proportional way? Stating such reveals to me that the Israeli gov sees Palestinians as less than them or less than human.

rr165892

dancinacrossthewater said:

Many who have watched the conflict over the past few weeks have made the fundamental error of viewing it as a national struggle between Israelis versus Palestinians. In reality, an extremist segment of the Palestinian leadership – Hamas along with other terror groups – has effectively hijacked the Palestinian national movement in the name of Islamism.

The agenda isn’t about securing Palestinian rights or opposing Israeli policies; it’s about securing an Islamic state and opposing Israel’s existence. The vision offered by Hamas, and paid for by Iran, cannot be detached from what has happened in Iraq and Syria, and the ongoing battle between Sunni jihadis and Shia jihadis across the region.

Having lived under the sort of regime Hamas intends to create in Gaza, I know firsthand that Hamas is foremost a threat to the Palestinians themselves. And I know that, while Israelis may be Tehran’s sworn enemy, the Palestinian people are nothing more than pawns in the radical scheme of Iran’s ayatollahs.

I agree with your thinking here.Ive said the same thing.

PJ_Soul

rr165892 said:

dancinacrossthewater said:

Many who have watched the conflict over the past few weeks have made the fundamental error of viewing it as a national struggle between Israelis versus Palestinians. In reality, an extremist segment of the Palestinian leadership – Hamas along with other terror groups – has effectively hijacked the Palestinian national movement in the name of Islamism.

The agenda isn’t about securing Palestinian rights or opposing Israeli policies; it’s about securing an Islamic state and opposing Israel’s existence. The vision offered by Hamas, and paid for by Iran, cannot be detached from what has happened in Iraq and Syria, and the ongoing battle between Sunni jihadis and Shia jihadis across the region.

Having lived under the sort of regime Hamas intends to create in Gaza, I know firsthand that Hamas is foremost a threat to the Palestinians themselves. And I know that, while Israelis may be Tehran’s sworn enemy, the Palestinian people are nothing more than pawns in the radical scheme of Iran’s ayatollahs.

I agree with your thinking here.Ive said the same thing.

While, as I'm sure everyone agrees, it doesn't excuse any of the Israeli Government's actions, I too agree with that statement. YES, right now the number 1 priority to stop people from being killed and to make sure that people are treating humanely and with respect.... But let this not blind us to what Hamas is all about as well.

benjs

PJ_Soul said:

rr165892 said:

dancinacrossthewater said:

Many who have watched the conflict over the past few weeks have made the fundamental error of viewing it as a national struggle between Israelis versus Palestinians. In reality, an extremist segment of the Palestinian leadership – Hamas along with other terror groups – has effectively hijacked the Palestinian national movement in the name of Islamism.

The agenda isn’t about securing Palestinian rights or opposing Israeli policies; it’s about securing an Islamic state and opposing Israel’s existence. The vision offered by Hamas, and paid for by Iran, cannot be detached from what has happened in Iraq and Syria, and the ongoing battle between Sunni jihadis and Shia jihadis across the region.

Having lived under the sort of regime Hamas intends to create in Gaza, I know firsthand that Hamas is foremost a threat to the Palestinians themselves. And I know that, while Israelis may be Tehran’s sworn enemy, the Palestinian people are nothing more than pawns in the radical scheme of Iran’s ayatollahs.

I agree with your thinking here.Ive said the same thing.

While, as I'm sure everyone agrees, it doesn't excuse any of the Israeli Government's actions, I too agree with that statement. YES, right now the number 1 priority to stop people from being killed and to make sure that people are treating humanely and with respect.... But let this not blind us to what Hamas is all about as well.

If Israel surrenders Gaza and the West Bank to be governed solely by the Palestinian Authority, dismantles the Jewish settlements, retreats and fortifies its borders around undisputed Israel, Hamas will be in a position where any acts of terror will be irrefutably perceived as terrorism (and not just by Israel and the US), and Israel will have fortified borders to defend themselves.

Just as I've tried to look at logic to see how the region arrived where it is now, it is necessary to project forward to the two scenarios which could arise if Gaza and the West Bank are liberated to be governed by the Palestinian Authority without Israeli restrictions on air/land/water traffic. These are my suppositions on what could happen:

1) Hamas continues to send rockets into Israel.
In this scenario, rockets continue to be lobbed from Palestinian borders into Israel. Israel would then have the right to disallow goods and personnel traffic to and from Gaza. The nation of Palestine would likely be condemned by the UN and the rest of the world, and goods influx would diminish rapidly. Egypt already is not on good terms with Hamas. The people of Palestine would likely revolt against Hamas, with the recognition that Hamas' goals are clearly not aligned with those of the Palestinians.

2) Hamas ceases sending rockets into Israel.
Israelis and Palestinians can finally begin what will inevitably be a lengthy process of peace restorations. There will be skepticism and mistrust, and over time (maybe decades), this will dissipate.

As always, if I'm misinformed or anyone has additional input, by all means please contribute

Byrnzie

dancinacrossthewater said:

Why did Hamas instigate this war by firing hundreds of missiles and mortar shells in the weeks before Israel launched its operation?

You ask me to respond to an article you post, and the very first question that the article poses is a blatant lie.

dancinacrossthewater said:

Why is Hamas continuing to launch missiles despite Israel’s largely successful efforts to shoot them down with the Iron Dome system?

According to some experts on missile defence, the Iron Dome is actually a huge failure and ony manages to intercept approx 10% of incoming missiles.

dancinacrossthewater said:

Why, on July 15, did Hamas reject an Egyptian ceasefire plan that was endorsed by the United Nations, accepted by Israel, and would have prevented the ground incursion in the first place?

Because Hamas were not involved in those ceasefire negotiations, and because the ceasefire proposal would have done nothing except return the situation back to the status quo, in which the Israeli's could continue illegally blockading Gaza and attacking it at will. Have you not been paying attention?