On Eddie Vedder and Israel/Palestine

fuckfuck Posts: 4,069
edited July 2014 in A Moving Train
Today I am more proud to be a Pearl Jam fan than ever before.

Being a Palestinian, I have been directly affected by the Israeli occupation and their ethnic cleansing of the land in 1948, when all my grandparents were forced out of their homes. One of my grandmothers, who was 9 years old at the time, watched her father - a police officer - get gunned down in front of her by Zionist paramilitary organizations. She then continued the rest of her journey on foot for several miles with the rest of her family - her father's recently killed body still lying on the floor of their now abandoned home.

Although I've only ever been able to visit Gaza, which is held under a tight siege by Israel and Egypt and barely a fly is able to make it in or out, and despite the fact that I was born and raised in the United States, the brutal Israeli occupation and oppression of Palestinians which has lasted for decades has followed me here.

But more than that, the sense of humanity, the obsession with justice and with equality that I was raised with, has made it impossible to view this "conflict", in which one side for the last several decades has possessed one of the largest military forces on the planet while the other has only been making homemade bottle rockets in recent years to try and maybe bother them a little, as a "conflict". It's not a conflict, it's one side occupying another and trying to take more and more land from them.

Which is why I was proud to see Eddie finally speak out on this issue. And let's be clear about something: he was talking about Israel/Palestine in that video. When he says "dropping bombs not so far away from here" from the UK, at a time when nearly 200 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed by Israeli bombs in only a matter of days, and it is dominating the news, he is talking about Palestine. We know he's anti-war in general, but his anger in that video is real, it is a reaction to the biggest news story right now (headlining all major news outlets). When he talks about "taking land that is not theirs" he does not mean ALL conflicts because all conflicts are not about land - but Israel/Palestine is. When he says "they should mind their fucking business, and get out" (I'm paraphrasing here, but he said something along these lines), that "they" is not general - it refers to the country that has been occupying a people and land illegally for SIXTY YEARS now. When he mentions how our tax dollars are funding bombs being dropped on children, he is not talking about the US military here - he is talking about the fact that the US has been sending BILLIONS of dollars EACH YEAR to Israel in military and other aid. And the fact that dozens of Palestinian children have been murdered as a result. The fact that this is what Eddie was referring to is beyond question - anyone who has been following this issue closely knows beyond a doubt.

I find it fascinating that Israelis themselves are able to figure this out. Yes, he does not mention Israel specifically, but they know that's who he's talking about when he mentions "taking land that's not theirs" and "dropping bombs on children". At least now we know how they see their society, government and military.

Which brings me to another point. This is not simply one other government doing wrong "as all governments do". There is a difference when your country is a colonial entity - when it is made up of a society, in this case a Jewish Israeli society, that is and has been seeking to create a country for themselves at the expense of another people. This is not the story of a people that simply cannot learn to get along with another. This is the story of a systematic effort by one side since decades ago to dispossess another people and take their land for their own use. This has been documented in so many books, and even Zionist authors themselves like Benny Morris have finally admitted (although this was like 20 years ago, but people are finally starting to catch up) that this has been the goal. This isn't a religious conflict, it's not a conflict that has lasted centuries - it is less than 100 years old. When we situate Palestinian resistance within this context - especially given how ineffective armed resistance has been for the Palestinians - we can then identify the root of the conflict, and how to stop it once and for all. This is NOT a "two sided conflict".

We have seen conflicts based on colonialism play out in India (with the British), Algeria (with the French) and South Africa (with the Afrikaners), but people, particularly in America, have been conditioned due to large scale propaganda efforts to view this conflict differently. It is no different. This is therefore not simply an issue of the Israeli government, but Israeli society itself, which has supported in overwhelming majority the persecution of Palestinians, whether it be their dispossession, the laws within Israel that discriminate against them, or the several wars on Gaza.

I saw Pearl Jam in Berlin only a couple weeks ago and was able to make it 3rd row center after waiting all day. I took with me a Palestinian flag and held it up for Eddie to see - only a couple of columns to the left of a group of Israelis who had a Come Play Israel sign. We also wrote on our flag a call for Pearl Jam to publicly endorse the BDS movement (Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions), a movement based on the one that helped end apartheid in South Africa. Several artists, scholars and even companies and other institutions have endorsed this tactic as the best nonviolent method of combating Israeli oppression and occupation, which was called for by a large coalition of Palestinian civil society organizations. By applying this same international pressure, Israel will continue to feel isolated and be forced to change its policy, just as South Africa did.

Many have called for dialogue - but anyone who has followed this issue, who understands Zionism and Israeli tactics knows, we cannot have a dialogue when the power dynamic remains as is. When Israel can receive a blank check from the United States (under Obama they've gotten more military aid than all previous presidents combined), without repercussions, they will not change their policy. When they can continue to act again and again with impunity, they will not change their policy. This is the one of the last nonviolent methods we can employ to stop this. I hope with Eddie's statement, we now know where he stands on this.

There are some who say that the music should be separate from the politics. Picasso, the famous painter, once said: "What do you think an artist is? ...he is a political being, constantly aware of the heart breaking, passionate, or delightful things that happen in the world, shaping himself completely in their image. Painting is not done to decorate apartments. It is an instrument of war." ART is an instrument of war. We cannot separate politics from life. We cannot separate our moral compass, and our principles and ethics, from life. Art does not exist in a vacuum, it is a response to the experiences we face in life, and that includes war and politics.

I am glad to see Eddie standing up for a cause that is right. I know many, perhaps most people here won't be able to understand this, but imagine something that has troubled you your whole life, something you care about deeply, something that has shaped your view of justice, being spoken out in favor of by Eddie, whose music has influenced you for years, and perhaps you can then relate.

I hope Eddie does not feel pressured by those groups seeking the whitewash Israeli war crimes. I hope he only gets more vocal for an issue that will judge where those stand in history: not whether you are pro-Palestinian or pro-Israeli, but whether you are pro-equality and justice, or pro-colonialism and oppression based on your ethnicity.
Post edited by fuck on
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Comments

  • IdrisIdris Posts: 2,317
    Watching that vid of Mr Vedder, warmed my heart a bit this morning.
  • benjsbenjs Posts: 9,150
    I'm glad to see him standing up for this too. We are living in the era where the global population has the ability to change policies and protocols, and information is at our disposal. Case and point - just from being on the Pearl Jam forums, I've read through so many interesting perspectives on this topic, and have learnt a great deal that I wasn't formerly aware of. I am pro-equality and pro-justice. I believe there are those within Israeli boundaries, as well as Palestinian boundaries, who have been indoctrinated to hate, and I believe there are those within both boundaries taught to love. All we can hope is that the latter can pursue reasonable and unheated discussion, and freedom for all. Unfortunately, I think nationalist and historical conversations need to take a backseat position in favour of progressive and equilateral discussions in order for viable solutions to present themselves, and that's going to be a very, very tough thing to do. I don't know many Palestinians, but the Israelis that I do know can often be unreasonably stubborn 'my way or the highway' types, and those egos need to be left at the door.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    Fuck, nice heart felt post my fellow Muslim brother. Keep up the fight
  • stickfig13stickfig13 Posts: 1,532
    I didn't watch the video before commenting in the other thread (on the Porch). I change my tone here....

    That was absolutely epic! You could tell that was real emotion pouring out. He's right. Regardless of the situation that he's talking about. It has to stop. The killing has to stop!
    Sacramento 10-30-00, Bridge School 10-20 and 10-21-01, Bridge School 10-25 and 10-26-01, Irvine 06-02-03, Irvine 06-03-03, San Diego 06-05-03, San Diego 07-07-06, Los Angeles 07-09-06, Santa Barbara 07-13-06, London UK 06-18-07, San Diego 10-9-09, San Diego 2013, LA 1 2013
  • benjsbenjs Posts: 9,150
    edited July 2014

    I didn't watch the video before commenting in the other thread (on the Porch). I change my tone here....

    That was absolutely epic! You could tell that was real emotion pouring out. He's right. Regardless of the situation that he's talking about. It has to stop. The killing has to stop!

    Thank you for focusing on the bottom line :)

    By the way - in true humanitarian form, Neil Young's statement, as taken from pollstar.com:

    'Young also put out his own statement, saying, “I will be making donations to both the Louise Tillie Alpert Youth Music Centre of Israel, and Heartbeat, two organizations that teach music to Palestinian and Israeli youth simultaneously by enabling them to play music together.”'

    Love this.
    Post edited by benjs on
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    edited July 2014
    You could see eddie ment it by the look in his eyes and the volume in his voice.

    "NOW!!!" "NOW!!!" (Finger pointing)!
    Post edited by badbrains on
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    Thanks for posting ...
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • foodshop65foodshop65 Posts: 731
    fuck said:

    Today I am more proud to be a Pearl Jam fan than ever before.

    Being a Palestinian, I have been directly affected by the Israeli occupation and their ethnic cleansing of the land in 1948, when all my grandparents were forced out of their homes. One of my grandmothers, who was 9 years old at the time, watched her father - a police officer - get gunned down in front of her by Zionist paramilitary organizations. She then continued the rest of her journey on foot for several miles with the rest of her family - her father's recently killed body still lying on the floor of their now abandoned home.

    Although I've only ever been able to visit Gaza, which is held under a tight siege by Israel and Egypt and barely a fly is able to make it in or out, and despite the fact that I was born and raised in the United States, the brutal Israeli occupation and oppression of Palestinians which has lasted for decades has followed me here.

    But more than that, the sense of humanity, the obsession with justice and with equality that I was raised with, has made it impossible to view this "conflict", in which one side for the last several decades has possessed one of the largest military forces on the planet while the other has only been making homemade bottle rockets in recent years to try and maybe bother them a little, as a "conflict". It's not a conflict, it's one side occupying another and trying to take more and more land from them.

    Which is why I was proud to see Eddie finally speak out on this issue. And let's be clear about something: he was talking about Israel/Palestine in that video. When he says "dropping bombs not so far away from here" from the UK, at a time when nearly 200 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed by Israeli bombs in only a matter of days, and it is dominating the news, he is talking about Palestine. We know he's anti-war in general, but his anger in that video is real, it is a reaction to the biggest news story right now (headlining all major news outlets). When he talks about "taking land that is not theirs" he does not mean ALL conflicts because all conflicts are not about land - but Israel/Palestine is. When he says "they should mind their fucking business, and get out" (I'm paraphrasing here, but he said something along these lines), that "they" is not general - it refers to the country that has been occupying a people and land illegally for SIXTY YEARS now. When he mentions how our tax dollars are funding bombs being dropped on children, he is not talking about the US military here - he is talking about the fact that the US has been sending BILLIONS of dollars EACH YEAR to Israel in military and other aid. And the fact that dozens of Palestinian children have been murdered as a result. The fact that this is what Eddie was referring to is beyond question - anyone who has been following this issue closely knows beyond a doubt.

    I find it fascinating that Israelis themselves are able to figure this out. Yes, he does not mention Israel specifically, but they know that's who he's talking about when he mentions "taking land that's not theirs" and "dropping bombs on children". At least now we know how they see their society, government and military.

    Which brings me to another point. This is not simply one other government doing wrong "as all governments do". There is a difference when your country is a colonial entity - when it is made up of a society, in this case a Jewish Israeli society, that is and has been seeking to create a country for themselves at the expense of another people. This is not the story of a people that simply cannot learn to get along with another. This is the story of a systematic effort by one side since decades ago to dispossess another people and take their land for their own use. This has been documented in so many books, and even Zionist authors themselves like Benny Morris have finally admitted (although this was like 20 years ago, but people are finally starting to catch up) that this has been the goal. This isn't a religious conflict, it's not a conflict that has lasted centuries - it is less than 100 years old. When we situate Palestinian resistance within this context - especially given how ineffective armed resistance has been for the Palestinians - we can then identify the root of the conflict, and how to stop it once and for all. This is NOT a "two sided conflict".

    We have seen conflicts based on colonialism play out in India (with the British), Algeria (with the French) and South Africa (with the Afrikaners), but people, particularly in America, have been conditioned due to large scale propaganda efforts to view this conflict differently. It is no different. This is therefore not simply an issue of the Israeli government, but Israeli society itself, which has supported in overwhelming majority the persecution of Palestinians, whether it be their dispossession, the laws within Israel that discriminate against them, or the several wars on Gaza.

    I saw Pearl Jam in Berlin only a couple weeks ago and was able to make it 3rd row center after waiting all day. I took with me a Palestinian flag and held it up for Eddie to see - only a couple of columns to the left of a group of Israelis who had a Come Play Israel sign. We also wrote on our flag a call for Pearl Jam to publicly endorse the BDS movement (Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions), a movement based on the one that helped end apartheid in South Africa. Several artists, scholars and even companies and other institutions have endorsed this tactic as the best nonviolent method of combating Israeli oppression and occupation, which was called for by a large coalition of Palestinian civil society organizations. By applying this same international pressure, Israel will continue to feel isolated and be forced to change its policy, just as South Africa did.

    Many have called for dialogue - but anyone who has followed this issue, who understands Zionism and Israeli tactics knows, we cannot have a dialogue when the power dynamic remains as is. When Israel can receive a blank check from the United States (under Obama they've gotten more military aid than all previous presidents combined), without repercussions, they will not change their policy. When they can continue to act again and again with impunity, they will not change their policy. This is the one of the last nonviolent methods we can employ to stop this. I hope with Eddie's statement, we now know where he stands on this.

    There are some who say that the music should be separate from the politics. Picasso, the famous painter, once said: "What do you think an artist is? ...he is a political being, constantly aware of the heart breaking, passionate, or delightful things that happen in the world, shaping himself completely in their image. Painting is not done to decorate apartments. It is an instrument of war." ART is an instrument of war. We cannot separate politics from life. We cannot separate our moral compass, and our principles and ethics, from life. Art does not exist in a vacuum, it is a response to the experiences we face in life, and that includes war and politics.

    I am glad to see Eddie standing up for a cause that is right. I know many, perhaps most people here won't be able to understand this, but imagine something that has troubled you your whole life, something you care about deeply, something that has shaped your view of justice, being spoken out in favor of by Eddie, whose music has influenced you for years, and perhaps you can then relate.

    I hope Eddie does not feel pressured by those groups seeking the whitewash Israeli war crimes. I hope he only gets more vocal for an issue that will judge where those stand in history: not whether you are pro-Palestinian or pro-Israeli, but whether you are pro-equality and justice, or pro-colonialism and oppression based on your ethnicity.

    wow and well put
    bravo
    Randall's Island 9-29-1996, MSG 9-10/11-1998, Meadows, CT 9-13-1998, Sacramento 10-30-2000, Bridge School 10-26-2002,MSG 9-8/9-2003, Hartford 2013, Amsterdam 2014(2), Memphis 2014, MSG 5-1/2-2016, Fenway 8-7-16, Fenway 9-2/4-18 MSG 9-11-22
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
    i was waiting for the OP to post about this. and i am glad he did.

    miss seeing you around here, f-bomb..
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    Anyone hear from vivapestine? Hope he didn't get suspended or banned. Would love for him to pen something too. Speak up, let your voices heard.
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    Yusuf Islam (cat stevens) kind of funny

  • Last-12-ExitLast-12-Exit Posts: 8,661
    We haven't seen that kind of emotion and passion from Ed in a long time. That look in his eyes were early 90's ish. Even if you don't agree with him, you have to feel how sincere he is and how those are researched and heart felt sentiments. And not just a drunken rant on stage. Well done Eddie, I'm proud of you.
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    edited July 2014
    Thanks for sharing your story, and for putting a face on (or at least add a personal touch to) the nakba for us. More of these stories need to see the light of day to help people understand why things are the way they are today.
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    edited July 2014

    We haven't seen that kind of emotion and passion from Ed in a long time. That look in his eyes were early 90's ish. Even if you don't agree with him, you have to feel how sincere he is and how those are researched and heart felt sentiments. And not just a drunken rant on stage. Well done Eddie, I'm proud of you.

    Exactly last exit. My one buddy said Ed looked possessed. He def spoke from the heart and u could see it in his eyes. I hope to god he has it in him to "not back down" when he gets questioned about it. Although he is a very private person so we may never here anything about it again. But there is a US tour coming, we'll see what happens.
  • yosiyosi Posts: 3,038
    Just saw this from a close family friend and one of the best (I think) liberal (and religious, and Zionist) Israeli reporters writing regularly in English. Thought it represents a perspective that many here are rarely exposed to.


    In the Jerusalem Mourning Tent For a Murdered Teen

    Hundreds of Israelis visit the family of a murdered Palestinian boy in Jerusalem that has been torn by rage.

    Gershom Gorenberg

    July 10, 2014

    The air-raid silence sounded at three minutes to ten at night in Jerusalem. Two distant booms followed. Afterward, they seemed like an orchestral finale: abrupt, followed by silence, the only notes of a long day that were unmistakable in their meaning.

    That afternoon, I'd gone with busloads of Israelis to Shuafat, a Palestinian neighborhood of East Jerusalem, to visit the family of Muhammad Abu-Khdeir. A huge mourners' tent had been set up: The ceiling was made of blue tarps; one side was open to the street; the other three sides walled with tapestries and printed banners showing pictures of Muhammad. In the pictures, Muhammad looked very young for 16, his age last week when, on his way to Ramadan prayers, he was pulled into a car and doused with gasoline, murdered by immolation. The suspects, now in custody, their names still under a gag order, are six young Israelis from the Jerusalem area. The motives were revenge and hatred—call it national, or ethnic, or tribal.

    Here's the very brief timeline: On June 30, Israeli troops found the bodies of three Israeli teens—Eyal Yifrah, Gilad Shaar, and Naftali Fraenkel—who'd been kidnapped by Palestinian extremists while hitchhiking in the West Bank. The next afternoon, as their funerals were broadcast on national TV and radio, downtown West Jerusalem became a riot zone. Bands of angry Jews, most in their teens, virtually all male, chanted "Death to Arabs!" They tried to beat up Palestinian workers in the open market, and threw stones at cars, randomly, without any sign that they cared whether the driver was Jewish or Arab. Before dawn the next day, Abu-Khdeir was abducted and murdered.

    The police, who responded too slowly to seething mobs in West Jerusalem, overreacted with rubber bullets and clubs to seething protests that broke out in East Jerusalem after the murder. A city divided by nationality and nationalism, half under occupation, which is also a city bound together by thin threads of human connections—a city much more lovely in its confusion of cultures, religions and languages than political reporters (including this one) ever get across—came undone.

    Then, over the weekend, the police arrested six suspects in the Abu-Khdeir murder. According to official and unofficial leaks, they are not from ideological settlements but from the long-ignored fringe of ultra-Orthodox society, the dropouts from life-long religious study who have no job skills and not a sliver of a chance of fitting into any society outside the self-imposed ultra-Orthodox ghetto. A preliminary pathological report showed that Muhammad Abu-Khdeir had been burned alive.

    The Israeli anti-racism coalition Tag Meir (translating the name would require a separate article) contacted the Abu-Khdeir family, which agreed to receive a group of Israelis in the mourning tent. There was room in the tent for 350 people. An announcement went out Monday; a few hours later, registration closed. Hundreds more wanted to come.

    And so, on Tuesday afternoon, a dozen or so middle-aged men from Muhammad Abu-Khdeir's family, including his father, stood in a receiving line in the tent as the visitors filed by, shaking their hands. "God bless you," one of the relatives murmured in Arabic-accented English. "I am so sorry," a woman murmured in Hebrew-accented Hebrew. Mostly, the ceremony was silent. The statement by both sides, it seemed, was to be there.

    The visitors did not fit Israeli political divisions or stereotypes. According to the signals, explicit or subtle, of how people dress, as many as half were Orthodox. I saw familiar left-wing activists, as well as Daniel Gordis, vice-president of Shalem College and a sharp critic of the pro-peace camp. A woman in her 20s named Goldie told me that she lived over the Green Line—that is, in a settlement. She'd come, she said, "because I simply felt terrible" about the murder. Rabbi David Bigman, one of the heads of the Ma'ale Gilboa yeshiva (Talmudic seminary) and a forceful liberal Orthodox voice, told me with blunt sadness: "Because we can't do anything else, we're doing this, mostly for ourselves." Of clergy and spokespeople for the right who have made vengeance a value, Bigman said, "There's no basis for that in Judaism."

    We filed in and sat in the plastic chairs that filled the tent. A relative of the slain boy took a microphone, with an Israeli journalist translating from Arabic to Hebrew. "We thank you for your feelings for the martyr of dawn," the speaker said. A couple of sentences later, the translator began to squirm, as the speaker referred to the Israeli government as "the Satan in the Knesset that orders occupation and settlement." He went on: "We bless you and welcome you to the mourners' tent, but we have refused to receive any condolences from representatives of the Israeli government… whose feelings are false." The amplifier was turned up so that the voice echoed between the buildings. "We thank you for coming to comfort the [family of the] martyr and the Palestinian people… You stood with us against the crimes of the occupation and the settlements."

    Later, as we left, a friend pointed to one of the banners hanging from a building across the street. It was from the students union at a college in Bethlehem, which "mourned for the martyr Muhammad Abu-Khdeir, who was kidnapped and murdered by the Zionist forces of treachery."



    Let me unpack a fraction of this. The day before, the family had in fact welcomed three Knesset members to the tent, including Amir Peretz, a cabinet minister. Someone had decided since then that the visit needed to be denied. The Israelis who listened to the speech all came because they were horrified by murder; not all saw settlement as a crime. I doubt that even the sharpest critics of the Israeli government were happy at it being called "Satan."

    "I feel like we were forced to bear a message that wasn't ours," someone told me as we boarded the buses that brought us. Someone else said: "When you go to console mourners, you don't judge what they say." The important message, he said, was the visit and the fact that men stood in the heat of a Ramadan afternoon to welcome the visitors. To both comments I'd add: Any meeting of Israelis and Palestinians will be bent by politics and anger. It was bright shining naiveté to imagine anything else, but the visit was still necessary.

    While we were in the mourning tent in Shuafat, another war was escalating—the one between Israel and Hamas-ruled Gaza. It grew as a brawl does: Each blow provokes a stronger blow. It is a different kind of war. The enemy is elsewhere, faceless, across a border. Palestinians die in Israeli airstrikes. As of yet, no Israelis have been killed by rockets, but that is not for lack of trying by the crews launching the rockets. On both sides, the war appears straightforward: They are attacking, so we must fight back.

    The air-raid siren at 10 p.m. and the two booms that followed seemed definite and simple: Distant people tried to kill us and failed. Finally, some clarity. But no one can remember just how this round began, or suggest how it will end. There is no clarity, and as yet no finality. For now, there is fire and mourning.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    yosi said:

    Just saw this from a close family friend and one of the best (I think) liberal (and religious, and Zionist) Israeli reporters writing regularly in English. Thought it represents a perspective that many here are rarely exposed to.


    In the Jerusalem Mourning Tent For a Murdered Teen

    Hundreds of Israelis visit the family of a murdered Palestinian boy in Jerusalem that has been torn by rage.

    Gershom Gorenberg

    July 10, 2014

    The air-raid silence sounded at three minutes to ten at night in Jerusalem. Two distant booms followed. Afterward, they seemed like an orchestral finale: abrupt, followed by silence, the only notes of a long day that were unmistakable in their meaning.

    That afternoon, I'd gone with busloads of Israelis to Shuafat, a Palestinian neighborhood of East Jerusalem, to visit the family of Muhammad Abu-Khdeir. A huge mourners' tent had been set up: The ceiling was made of blue tarps; one side was open to the street; the other three sides walled with tapestries and printed banners showing pictures of Muhammad. In the pictures, Muhammad looked very young for 16, his age last week when, on his way to Ramadan prayers, he was pulled into a car and doused with gasoline, murdered by immolation. The suspects, now in custody, their names still under a gag order, are six young Israelis from the Jerusalem area. The motives were revenge and hatred—call it national, or ethnic, or tribal.

    Here's the very brief timeline: On June 30, Israeli troops found the bodies of three Israeli teens—Eyal Yifrah, Gilad Shaar, and Naftali Fraenkel—who'd been kidnapped by Palestinian extremists while hitchhiking in the West Bank. The next afternoon, as their funerals were broadcast on national TV and radio, downtown West Jerusalem became a riot zone. Bands of angry Jews, most in their teens, virtually all male, chanted "Death to Arabs!" They tried to beat up Palestinian workers in the open market, and threw stones at cars, randomly, without any sign that they cared whether the driver was Jewish or Arab. Before dawn the next day, Abu-Khdeir was abducted and murdered.

    The police, who responded too slowly to seething mobs in West Jerusalem, overreacted with rubber bullets and clubs to seething protests that broke out in East Jerusalem after the murder. A city divided by nationality and nationalism, half under occupation, which is also a city bound together by thin threads of human connections—a city much more lovely in its confusion of cultures, religions and languages than political reporters (including this one) ever get across—came undone.

    Then, over the weekend, the police arrested six suspects in the Abu-Khdeir murder. According to official and unofficial leaks, they are not from ideological settlements but from the long-ignored fringe of ultra-Orthodox society, the dropouts from life-long religious study who have no job skills and not a sliver of a chance of fitting into any society outside the self-imposed ultra-Orthodox ghetto. A preliminary pathological report showed that Muhammad Abu-Khdeir had been burned alive.

    The Israeli anti-racism coalition Tag Meir (translating the name would require a separate article) contacted the Abu-Khdeir family, which agreed to receive a group of Israelis in the mourning tent. There was room in the tent for 350 people. An announcement went out Monday; a few hours later, registration closed. Hundreds more wanted to come.

    And so, on Tuesday afternoon, a dozen or so middle-aged men from Muhammad Abu-Khdeir's family, including his father, stood in a receiving line in the tent as the visitors filed by, shaking their hands. "God bless you," one of the relatives murmured in Arabic-accented English. "I am so sorry," a woman murmured in Hebrew-accented Hebrew. Mostly, the ceremony was silent. The statement by both sides, it seemed, was to be there.

    The visitors did not fit Israeli political divisions or stereotypes. According to the signals, explicit or subtle, of how people dress, as many as half were Orthodox. I saw familiar left-wing activists, as well as Daniel Gordis, vice-president of Shalem College and a sharp critic of the pro-peace camp. A woman in her 20s named Goldie told me that she lived over the Green Line—that is, in a settlement. She'd come, she said, "because I simply felt terrible" about the murder. Rabbi David Bigman, one of the heads of the Ma'ale Gilboa yeshiva (Talmudic seminary) and a forceful liberal Orthodox voice, told me with blunt sadness: "Because we can't do anything else, we're doing this, mostly for ourselves." Of clergy and spokespeople for the right who have made vengeance a value, Bigman said, "There's no basis for that in Judaism."

    We filed in and sat in the plastic chairs that filled the tent. A relative of the slain boy took a microphone, with an Israeli journalist translating from Arabic to Hebrew. "We thank you for your feelings for the martyr of dawn," the speaker said. A couple of sentences later, the translator began to squirm, as the speaker referred to the Israeli government as "the Satan in the Knesset that orders occupation and settlement." He went on: "We bless you and welcome you to the mourners' tent, but we have refused to receive any condolences from representatives of the Israeli government… whose feelings are false." The amplifier was turned up so that the voice echoed between the buildings. "We thank you for coming to comfort the [family of the] martyr and the Palestinian people… You stood with us against the crimes of the occupation and the settlements."

    Later, as we left, a friend pointed to one of the banners hanging from a building across the street. It was from the students union at a college in Bethlehem, which "mourned for the martyr Muhammad Abu-Khdeir, who was kidnapped and murdered by the Zionist forces of treachery."



    Let me unpack a fraction of this. The day before, the family had in fact welcomed three Knesset members to the tent, including Amir Peretz, a cabinet minister. Someone had decided since then that the visit needed to be denied. The Israelis who listened to the speech all came because they were horrified by murder; not all saw settlement as a crime. I doubt that even the sharpest critics of the Israeli government were happy at it being called "Satan."

    "I feel like we were forced to bear a message that wasn't ours," someone told me as we boarded the buses that brought us. Someone else said: "When you go to console mourners, you don't judge what they say." The important message, he said, was the visit and the fact that men stood in the heat of a Ramadan afternoon to welcome the visitors. To both comments I'd add: Any meeting of Israelis and Palestinians will be bent by politics and anger. It was bright shining naiveté to imagine anything else, but the visit was still necessary.

    While we were in the mourning tent in Shuafat, another war was escalating—the one between Israel and Hamas-ruled Gaza. It grew as a brawl does: Each blow provokes a stronger blow. It is a different kind of war. The enemy is elsewhere, faceless, across a border. Palestinians die in Israeli airstrikes. As of yet, no Israelis have been killed by rockets, but that is not for lack of trying by the crews launching the rockets. On both sides, the war appears straightforward: They are attacking, so we must fight back.

    The air-raid siren at 10 p.m. and the two booms that followed seemed definite and simple: Distant people tried to kill us and failed. Finally, some clarity. But no one can remember just how this round began, or suggest how it will end. There is no clarity, and as yet no finality. For now, there is fire and mourning.

    No one can remember how this round of violence started? I can, idf shot and killed 2 Palestinian teens ON video on Nakba Day. What's nakba day???

    Nakba day:

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba_Day
  • benjsbenjs Posts: 9,150
    edited July 2014
    badbrains said:

    yosi said:

    Just saw this from a close family friend and one of the best (I think) liberal (and religious, and Zionist) Israeli reporters writing regularly in English. Thought it represents a perspective that many here are rarely exposed to.


    In the Jerusalem Mourning Tent For a Murdered Teen

    Hundreds of Israelis visit the family of a murdered Palestinian boy in Jerusalem that has been torn by rage.

    Gershom Gorenberg

    July 10, 2014

    The air-raid silence sounded at three minutes to ten at night in Jerusalem. Two distant booms followed. Afterward, they seemed like an orchestral finale: abrupt, followed by silence, the only notes of a long day that were unmistakable in their meaning.

    That afternoon, I'd gone with busloads of Israelis to Shuafat, a Palestinian neighborhood of East Jerusalem, to visit the family of Muhammad Abu-Khdeir. A huge mourners' tent had been set up: The ceiling was made of blue tarps; one side was open to the street; the other three sides walled with tapestries and printed banners showing pictures of Muhammad. In the pictures, Muhammad looked very young for 16, his age last week when, on his way to Ramadan prayers, he was pulled into a car and doused with gasoline, murdered by immolation. The suspects, now in custody, their names still under a gag order, are six young Israelis from the Jerusalem area. The motives were revenge and hatred—call it national, or ethnic, or tribal.

    Here's the very brief timeline: On June 30, Israeli troops found the bodies of three Israeli teens—Eyal Yifrah, Gilad Shaar, and Naftali Fraenkel—who'd been kidnapped by Palestinian extremists while hitchhiking in the West Bank. The next afternoon, as their funerals were broadcast on national TV and radio, downtown West Jerusalem became a riot zone. Bands of angry Jews, most in their teens, virtually all male, chanted "Death to Arabs!" They tried to beat up Palestinian workers in the open market, and threw stones at cars, randomly, without any sign that they cared whether the driver was Jewish or Arab. Before dawn the next day, Abu-Khdeir was abducted and murdered.

    *Shortened for length restrictions*

    No one can remember how this round of violence started? I can, idf shot and killed 2 Palestinian teens ON video on Nakba Day. What's nakba day???

    Nakba day:

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba_Day
    You're living outside of Israel and the Palestinian zones, and yet YOU, when faced with a heartfelt account where Israelis and Palestinians are trying to bond, mourn together, understand that each other are suffering, you refuse to move on, choosing instead to linger on how it started. You ask Israel to simply walk away from an occupation - remove walls? Allow free traffic in and out of the Gazan/West Bank East Jerusalem regions? And you expect the people living in the thick of it all to let go of the past and embrace peace when even YOU can't? I've bit my tongue plenty of times, but when you take an article like this, whose inherent message is of peace, and once again distort it to try and start a screaming match, you discredit yourself AND your cause. If you stand for peace, you aren't doing a good job of showing it.

    EDIT: I realized you haven't mentioned where you're from, my apologies for my assumption that you're living outside of Israel and the Palestinian zones.
    Post edited by benjs on
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    edited July 2014
    benjs said:

    badbrains said:

    yosi said:

    Just saw this from a close family friend and one of the best (I think) liberal (and religious, and Zionist) Israeli reporters writing regularly in English. Thought it represents a perspective that many here are rarely exposed to.


    In the Jerusalem Mourning Tent For a Murdered Teen

    Hundreds of Israelis visit the family of a murdered Palestinian boy in Jerusalem that has been torn by rage.

    Gershom Gorenberg

    July 10, 2014

    The air-raid silence sounded at three minutes to ten at night in Jerusalem. Two distant booms followed. Afterward, they seemed like an orchestral finale: abrupt, followed by silence, the only notes of a long day that were unmistakable in their meaning.

    That afternoon, I'd gone with busloads of Israelis to Shuafat, a Palestinian neighborhood of East Jerusalem, to visit the family of Muhammad Abu-Khdeir. A huge mourners' tent had been set up: The ceiling was made of blue tarps; one side was open to the street; the other three sides walled with tapestries and printed banners showing pictures of Muhammad. In the pictures, Muhammad looked very young for 16, his age last week when, on his way to Ramadan prayers, he was pulled into a car and doused with gasoline, murdered by immolation. The suspects, now in custody, their names still under a gag order, are six young Israelis from the Jerusalem area. The motives were revenge and hatred—call it national, or ethnic, or tribal.

    Here's the very brief timeline: On June 30, Israeli troops found the bodies of three Israeli teens—Eyal Yifrah, Gilad Shaar, and Naftali Fraenkel—who'd been kidnapped by Palestinian extremists while hitchhiking in the West Bank. The next afternoon, as their funerals were broadcast on national TV and radio, downtown West Jerusalem became a riot zone. Bands of angry Jews, most in their teens, virtually all male, chanted "Death to Arabs!" They tried to beat up Palestinian workers in the open market, and threw stones at cars, randomly, without any sign that they cared whether the driver was Jewish or Arab. Before dawn the next day, Abu-Khdeir was abducted and murdered.

    *Shortened for length restrictions*

    No one can remember how this round of violence started? I can, idf shot and killed 2 Palestinian teens ON video on Nakba Day. What's nakba day???

    Nakba day:

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba_Day
    You're living outside of Israel and the Palestinian zones, and yet YOU, when faced with a heartfelt account where Israelis and Palestinians are trying to bond, mourn together, understand that each other are suffering, you refuse to move on, choosing instead to linger on how it started. You ask Israel to simply walk away from an occupation - remove walls? Allow free traffic in and out of the Gazan/West Bank East Jerusalem regions? And you expect the people living in the thick of it all to let go of the past and embrace peace when even YOU can't? I've bit my tongue plenty of times, but when you take an article like this, whose inherent message is of peace, and once again distort it to try and start a screaming match, you discredit yourself AND your cause. If you stand for peace, you aren't doing a good job of showing it.

    EDIT: I realized you haven't mentioned where you're from, my apologies for my assumption that you're living outside of Israel and the Palestinian zones.
    Ben, I could careless how u look at me. I reached out to and sent u a pm welcoming u into the discussion. And thought maybe you would want to have a decent conversation on the topic. And then I see u make a comment about you'd be buying the first beers when we all sit together including byrnzie when I made that beer remark. But as soon as u thought byrnzie was suspended, u went and cracked on him in one if your posts. So if you think that what u said bothers me, it doesn't. Yosi posted a post and IN THE POST it says no one can remember what started this round of violence, which I stated I do. You get all butt hurt I mentioned nakba and how it did start. You go and sort of call me out? No prob, who cares. Call me out all you want, WONT change the fact that almost 200 dead Palestinians in 1 week. Yup, and how many are children???? So excuse me if I felt that yosi's post was a bit of smoke and mirrors to paint Israel as the compassionate one. Ya, what those villagers did was kind to go to the wake. But that doesn't erase what the other settlers did to that Palestinian kid. Poured gas down his throat and lit him on fire WHILE he was alive?!?!? You want to call me out, have at it. I won't back down and so won't a lot of others here who see what's really going. And please, dnt bite your tongue and hold back. You're not gonna hurt my feelings. All this because I said I remember what started it all?!?! And u act like them visiting the dead child's parents is gonna erase 60+ years of occupation. I'm sure that's what you were hopping for but realistic man, come on.

    Edit-just because I live outside of Palestine doesn't mean I dnt know what's going on. Funny how everyone thinks we have to live in area to know what's going on in that area. None of us live in Iraq or Afghanistan or Russia, yet we all have opinions on what to do or what's going on over there. Why is it that anyone who disagrees with Israel and it's government, must be uneducated or misinformed? Right Eddie?
    Post edited by badbrains on
  • benjsbenjs Posts: 9,150
    badbrains said:

    benjs said:

    badbrains said:

    yosi said:

    Just saw this from a close family friend and one of the best (I think) liberal (and religious, and Zionist) Israeli reporters writing regularly in English. Thought it represents a perspective that many here are rarely exposed to.


    In the Jerusalem Mourning Tent For a Murdered Teen

    Hundreds of Israelis visit the family of a murdered Palestinian boy in Jerusalem that has been torn by rage.

    Gershom Gorenberg

    July 10, 2014

    The air-raid silence sounded at three minutes to ten at night in Jerusalem. Two distant booms followed. Afterward, they seemed like an orchestral finale: abrupt, followed by silence, the only notes of a long day that were unmistakable in their meaning.

    That afternoon, I'd gone with busloads of Israelis to Shuafat, a Palestinian neighborhood of East Jerusalem, to visit the family of Muhammad Abu-Khdeir. A huge mourners' tent had been set up: The ceiling was made of blue tarps; one side was open to the street; the other three sides walled with tapestries and printed banners showing pictures of Muhammad. In the pictures, Muhammad looked very young for 16, his age last week when, on his way to Ramadan prayers, he was pulled into a car and doused with gasoline, murdered by immolation. The suspects, now in custody, their names still under a gag order, are six young Israelis from the Jerusalem area. The motives were revenge and hatred—call it national, or ethnic, or tribal.

    Here's the very brief timeline: On June 30, Israeli troops found the bodies of three Israeli teens—Eyal Yifrah, Gilad Shaar, and Naftali Fraenkel—who'd been kidnapped by Palestinian extremists while hitchhiking in the West Bank. The next afternoon, as their funerals were broadcast on national TV and radio, downtown West Jerusalem became a riot zone. Bands of angry Jews, most in their teens, virtually all male, chanted "Death to Arabs!" They tried to beat up Palestinian workers in the open market, and threw stones at cars, randomly, without any sign that they cared whether the driver was Jewish or Arab. Before dawn the next day, Abu-Khdeir was abducted and murdered.

    *Shortened for length restrictions*

    No one can remember how this round of violence started? I can, idf shot and killed 2 Palestinian teens ON video on Nakba Day. What's nakba day???

    Nakba day:

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba_Day
    You're living outside of Israel and the Palestinian zones, and yet YOU, when faced with a heartfelt account where Israelis and Palestinians are trying to bond, mourn together, understand that each other are suffering, you refuse to move on, choosing instead to linger on how it started. You ask Israel to simply walk away from an occupation - remove walls? Allow free traffic in and out of the Gazan/West Bank East Jerusalem regions? And you expect the people living in the thick of it all to let go of the past and embrace peace when even YOU can't? I've bit my tongue plenty of times, but when you take an article like this, whose inherent message is of peace, and once again distort it to try and start a screaming match, you discredit yourself AND your cause. If you stand for peace, you aren't doing a good job of showing it.

    EDIT: I realized you haven't mentioned where you're from, my apologies for my assumption that you're living outside of Israel and the Palestinian zones.
    Ben, I could careless how u look at me. I reached out to and sent u a pm welcoming u into the discussion. And thought maybe you would want to have a decent conversation on the topic. And then I see u make a comment about you'd be buying the first beers when we all sit together including byrnzie when I made that beer remark. But as soon as u thought byrnzie was suspended, u went and cracked on him in one if your posts. So if you think that what u said bothers me, it doesn't. Yosi posted a post and IN THE POST it says no one can remember what started this round of violence, which I stated I do. You get all butt hurt I mentioned nakba and how it did start. You go and sort of call me out? No prob, who cares. Call me out all you want, WONT change the fact that almost 200 dead Palestinians in 1 week. Yup, and how many are children???? So excuse me if I felt that yosi's post was a bit of smoke and mirrors to paint Israel as the compassionate one. Ya, what those villagers did was kind to go to the wake. But that doesn't erase what the other settlers did to that Palestinian kid. Poured gas down his throat and lit him on fire WHILE he was alive?!?!? You want to call me out, have at it. I won't back down and so won't a lot of others here who see what's really going. And please, dnt bite your tongue and hold back. You're not gonna hurt my feelings. All this because I said I remember what started it all?!?! And u act like them visiting the dead child's parents is gonna erase 60+ years of occupation. I'm sure that's what you were hopping for but realistic man, come on.
    Cracked on him? I said he was calling people names. Which he was. And I was within my rights there. The only name-calling I've done here is the word 'deluded', which I believe many of us (myself included) are. I call pigs pigs and people people and I do not swap them (with the exception of this guy).

    image

    I don't believe Israel or Palestinians are above smoke and mirrors to paint pretty pictures, I don't believe Israelis or Palestinians are inherently innocent in what's going on - I'm absolutely DISGUSTED and tremendously disturbed about what happened to the Palestinian kid. Do I think that visiting the dead child's parents is going to erase 60+ years of occupation? Nope, not at all. All I'm saying is that if you're expecting some sort of radical paradigm shift to happen overnight, you have bigger dreams and higher hopes than me. Baby steps are what are required, and a shift in mentality from BOTH sides, inherently in favour of peace - and publicly and loudly stated. It's very clear you're anti-oppression, and so am I. If Palestinians are being oppressed, you're damn right they ought to be liberated. I question how that will ever happen with each side passive aggressively going "hey, remember that time you bombed the shit out of us?"

    Do you think that, maybe, Israelis might not feel so comfortable inviting Palestinians in with open arms if the predominant discussion ongoing is that of Israel's government inspired by Satan, and the people who remember being bombed and murdered by Israelis (neither of which can be denied have happened)? I'm just curious: what would you say if Israel backed away now and the Palestinian occupations revolted? And in your opinion, what's the likelihood and/or outcome of that?
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • benjsbenjs Posts: 9,150
    badbrains said:

    benjs said:

    badbrains said:

    yosi said:

    Just saw this from a close family friend and one of the best (I think) liberal (and religious, and Zionist) Israeli reporters writing regularly in English. Thought it represents a perspective that many here are rarely exposed to.

    No one can remember how this round of violence started? I can, idf shot and killed 2 Palestinian teens ON video on Nakba Day. What's nakba day???

    Nakba day:

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba_Day
    You're living outside of Israel and the Palestinian zones, and yet YOU, when faced with a heartfelt account where Israelis and Palestinians are trying to bond, mourn together, understand that each other are suffering, you refuse to move on, choosing instead to linger on how it started. You ask Israel to simply walk away from an occupation - remove walls? Allow free traffic in and out of the Gazan/West Bank East Jerusalem regions? And you expect the people living in the thick of it all to let go of the past and embrace peace when even YOU can't? I've bit my tongue plenty of times, but when you take an article like this, whose inherent message is of peace, and once again distort it to try and start a screaming match, you discredit yourself AND your cause. If you stand for peace, you aren't doing a good job of showing it.

    EDIT: I realized you haven't mentioned where you're from, my apologies for my assumption that you're living outside of Israel and the Palestinian zones.
    Ben, I could careless how u look at me. I reached out to and sent u a pm welcoming u into the discussion. And thought maybe you would want to have a decent conversation on the topic. And then I see u make a comment about you'd be buying the first beers when we all sit together including byrnzie when I made that beer remark. But as soon as u thought byrnzie was suspended, u went and cracked on him in one if your posts. So if you think that what u said bothers me, it doesn't. Yosi posted a post and IN THE POST it says no one can remember what started this round of violence, which I stated I do. You get all butt hurt I mentioned nakba and how it did start. You go and sort of call me out? No prob, who cares. Call me out all you want, WONT change the fact that almost 200 dead Palestinians in 1 week. Yup, and how many are children???? So excuse me if I felt that yosi's post was a bit of smoke and mirrors to paint Israel as the compassionate one. Ya, what those villagers did was kind to go to the wake. But that doesn't erase what the other settlers did to that Palestinian kid. Poured gas down his throat and lit him on fire WHILE he was alive?!?!? You want to call me out, have at it. I won't back down and so won't a lot of others here who see what's really going. And please, dnt bite your tongue and hold back. You're not gonna hurt my feelings. All this because I said I remember what started it all?!?! And u act like them visiting the dead child's parents is gonna erase 60+ years of occupation. I'm sure that's what you were hopping for but realistic man, come on.

    Edit-just because I live outside of Palestine doesn't mean I dnt know what's going on. Funny how everyone thinks we have to live in area to know what's going on in that area. None of us live in Iraq or Afghanistan or Russia, yet we all have opinions on what to do or what's going on over there. Why is it that anyone who disagrees with Israel and it's government, must be uneducated or misinformed?
    Also - for the record - I don't think you're uneducated or misinformed, and if there have been here that do, frankly, fuck 'em. And for the record - I disagree with Israel and its government on many things (and had an Israeli rant at me this morning about the stupidity and completely unnecessary nature of ending its cease-fire). I just really do have trouble seeing the cause-and-effect of how retreating from Gaza, East Jerusalem and the West Bank - which would inevitably be seen as an admission of guilt of running an illegitimate occupation - could result in peace in the Middle East. If I could get assurance about that, I'll be waving both Palestinian and Israeli flags at the next rally in Toronto.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    Ben said :

    Do you think that, maybe, Israelis might not feel so comfortable inviting Palestinians in with open arms if the predominant discussion ongoing is that of Israel's government inspired by Satan, and the people who remember being bombed and murdered by Israelis (neither of which can be denied have happened)? I'm just curious: what would you say if Israel backed away now and the Palestinian occupations revolted? And in your opinion, what's the likelihood and/or outcome of that?

    First off, my question to you is WHY do the Palestinians feel that about satan inspiring their government? Secondly, for the irsraelis to leave they'd have to honestly leave and not sit there poking the Palestinians every chance it gets for them to respond and fire rockets so Israel can go back in AGAIN. Again, it's how this fucken mess started wether u want to admit it or not. Idf Shoot and kill 2 Palestinian teens protesting on Nakba day. (Poke) Palestinians respond with firecracker rockets, Israel has a reason to go back in. But this time it has the 3 dead Israeli teens as an excuse to broaden the attack. And they start the cycle AGAIN. Not really hard to see how it started. Well, unless u live in the states where the media is always anti-Israel ;)
  • benjsbenjs Posts: 9,150
    badbrains said:

    Ben said :

    Do you think that, maybe, Israelis might not feel so comfortable inviting Palestinians in with open arms if the predominant discussion ongoing is that of Israel's government inspired by Satan, and the people who remember being bombed and murdered by Israelis (neither of which can be denied have happened)? I'm just curious: what would you say if Israel backed away now and the Palestinian occupations revolted? And in your opinion, what's the likelihood and/or outcome of that?

    First off, my question to you is WHY do the Palestinians feel that about satan inspiring their government? Secondly, for the irsraelis to leave they'd have to honestly leave and not sit there poking the Palestinians every chance it gets for them to respond and fire rockets so Israel can go back in AGAIN. Again, it's how this fucken mess started wether u want to admit it or not. Idf Shoot and kill 2 Palestinian teens protesting on Nakba day. (Poke) Palestinians respond with firecracker rockets, Israel has a reason to go back in. But this time it has the 3 dead Israeli teens as an excuse to broaden the attack. And they start the cycle AGAIN. Not really hard to see how it started. Well, unless u live in the states where the media is always anti-Israel ;)

    I think you're missing the part where I'm saying that both sides have reason to be angered by each other. You're probably right about where it started: what I'm saying is if both parties keep their heads in the history books - history shows they should hate each other. It's looking forward which needs to be made a primary objective.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    edited July 2014
    No doubt Ben, both sides have rites to be mad at each other, we all know that. I just hope we're not to late on peace ever getting accomplished there. It's 2014 and look what state they're in. The shit cycle continues.

    Edit- and Ben, I DO WANT peace their. More then anything. No one deserves to live how the Palestinians live and in fairness Israel shouldn't have to worry about missiles raining down on them too. But until the leaders are chosen with PEACE as their intentions, we're gonna have what eddie said, people who just want to kill.
    Post edited by badbrains on
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    edited July 2014
    If there was a withdrawal, and an end to the blockade, the Palestinians would have to commit to prosecuting or turning over anyone who attacks israel. And Israel would have to agree to let this happen, possibly even work with the Palestinians from an intelligence standpoint, without retaliating with military force. The end of the bush doctrine of pre emptive strikes, and the policy of collective punishment and strikes against targets sans proof of guilt is the first step post-withdrawal. And there would be a long cooling off period, probably 2 or 3 generations of relative peace, before true peace is achieved. The israeli's, in their position of power, and as a state with a military who follows orders from the state, have much more control over whether this works than the Palestinians who would have to deal with the problems all fledgling sovereign nations deal with - power struggles between factions who have different ideas on how the state should move forward. The israeli's would need to show restraint, and maybe an international peacekeeping force on the border could help in that regard. The first step is always to end the occupation/blockade, and dismantle (or preferably hand over) the settlements.
    Post edited by Drowned Out on
  • benjsbenjs Posts: 9,150
    badbrains said:

    No doubt Ben, both sides have rites to be mad at each other, we all know that. I just hope we're not to late on peace ever getting accomplished there. It's 2014 and look what state they're in. The shit cycle continues.

    It certainly does. And I really hope you're right, man. I know it seems cheesy and bullshitty of me to just keep saying "let's focus on peace", but I just can't see any good coming from looking back. Israel and the Palestinian zones have both done some fucking horrific things and I am by no means blind to that. I just would love to talk about "what if" scenarios more... I'm an engineer, and fairly logic driven. I like to see the causality in decisions, and to follow them through to see where things end up. In this case, our dreamed-of end is peace for all. So what are the steps we need to actively pursue in order to get there? And please, badbrains, I'm 100% dead serious, I would love to hear how, in your opinion, we can help get there. Please walk me through the logic.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255

    If there was a withdrawal, and an end to the blockade, the Palestinians would have to commit to prosecuting or turning over anyone who attacks israel. And Israel would have to agree to let this happen, possibly even work with the Palestinians from an intelligence standpoint, without retaliating with military force. The end of the bush doctrine of pre emptive strikes, and the policy of collective punishment and strikes against targets sans proof of guilt is the first step post-withdrawal. And there would be a long cooling off period, probably 2 or 3 generations of relative peace, before true peace is achieved. The israeli's, in their position of power, and as a state with a military who follows orders from the state, have much more control over whether this works than the Palestinians who would have to deal with the problems all fledgling sovereign nations deal with - power struggles between factions who have different ideas on how the state should move forward. The israeli's would need to show restraint, and maybe an international peacekeeping force on the border could help in that regard. The first step is always to end the occupation/blockade, and dismantle (or preferably hand over) the settlements.

    What drowned out said. See he can write a hell of lot better then I can lol. I can think it, but he can write it lol
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    I should add that the way things are headed, this scenario is a pipe dream. Israel will continue down it's current path until the two state solution is dead (it may already be). If this happens, I think eventually the world will be forced to demand equal rights for all peoples within 'eretz israel'....at which point, the Jewishness of the state is in trouble. This is why yosi tells us that many Israelis do see the settlements and aggressive policies as detrimental to the 'liberal' approach to Zionism.
  • benjsbenjs Posts: 9,150

    If there was a withdrawal, and an end to the blockade, the Palestinians would have to commit to prosecuting or turning over anyone who attacks israel. And Israel would have to agree to let this happen, possibly even work with the Palestinians from an intelligence standpoint, without retaliating with military force. The end of the bush doctrine of pre emptive strikes, and the policy of collective punishment and strikes against targets sans proof of guilt is the first step post-withdrawal. And there would be a long cooling off period, probably 2 or 3 generations of relative peace, before true peace is achieved. The israeli's, in their position of power, and as a state with a military who follows orders from the state, have much more control over whether this works than the Palestinians who would have to deal with the problems all fledgling sovereign nations deal with - power struggles between factions who have different ideas on how the state should move forward. The israeli's would need to show restraint, and maybe an international peacekeeping force on the border could help in that regard. The first step is always to end the occupation/blockade, and dismantle (or preferably hand over) the settlements.

    This helps me wrap my head around this hugely - thank you Drowned Out!
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • yosiyosi Posts: 3,038

    I should add that the way things are headed, this scenario is a pipe dream. Israel will continue down it's current path until the two state solution is dead (it may already be). If this happens, I think eventually the world will be forced to demand equal rights for all peoples within 'eretz israel'....at which point, the Jewishness of the state is in trouble. This is why yosi tells us that many Israelis do see the settlements and aggressive policies as detrimental to the 'liberal' approach to Zionism.

    I'd actually go further than that and say that many see such policies as not just detrimental to liberal Zionism, but as inherently anti-Zionist (which is my position). The logic there is that the common thread that runs through every form of Zionism is Jewish self-determination in a part of our ancestral homeland. Insofar as the settlements risk undermining Jewish self-determination (which they do), and insofar as they systematically lead to a blatant disregard for and undermining of the rule of law (and hence the sovereignty of the state), which they do, they are fundamentally anti-Zionist.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

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