It's Embedded so Deeply into American Culture...Really it should be a Privilege rather then a Right to own a Gun.
no offnese but I respectfully disagree.
Godfather.
do you disagree that gun ownership should be a privilege or that guns are embedded into the culture?
Do you believe that the ability to defend yourself is a privilege or a right?
I believe that the ability to defend yourself is a right but that gun ownership is a privilage.
now will you answer a question for me? what is a "right" mean to you? can a right be subjective ie some people have it and some people don't.
0
unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
Rights are not granted by government, nor are they taken away.
I should also be able to defend myself with equal or greater means than my attacker. Or do you believe that a woman shouldn't be able to defend herself with a gun against a 6' 250lb man with a knife?
Rights are not granted by government, nor are they taken away.
I should also be able to defend myself with equal or greater means than my attacker. Or do you believe that a woman shouldn't be able to defend herself with a gun against a 6' 250lb man with a knife?
no i believe that a woman should be able to use a gun against a 250 lb man.
question for you, should a man with major mental health issues be able to buy a gun? should a person who went to jail for say gun related assault be allowed to buy a gun also?
0
unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
Major mental? No.
But who decides that diagnosis?
As far as the other I'd need better specifics. Gun crimes can be something as simple as being a concealed carry holder accidentally walking into a field that is school property. I have a problem with that.
If we are talking about someone discharging a gun in the commission of a crime such as a robbery I wouldn't allow it. That person didn't have their right taken away, they conceded it themselves.
It's Embedded so Deeply into American Culture...Really it should be a Privilege rather then a Right to own a Gun.
no offnese but I respectfully disagree.
Godfather.
do you disagree that gun ownership should be a privilege or that guns are embedded into the culture?
Honest Abe made men free but Samual Colt made them equal......LOL!!! your asking a two sided question . yes and yes guns were part of this country from the start,guns were used to gain our freedom-put food on the table and protect ourselves from wrong doers and those general rules still stand true today,this country has been dealing with bad apples and guns just as long but nobody ever tried to unarm a country until lately with sisy generations.
As far as the other I'd need better specifics. Gun crimes can be something as simple as being a concealed carry holder accidentally walking into a field that is school property. I have a problem with that.
If we are talking about someone discharging a gun in the commission of a crime such as a robbery I wouldn't allow it. That person didn't have their right taken away, they conceded it themselves.
I would say a doctor decides that diagnosis after having multiple interactions with a patient. would that suit you?
if that does suit you, are you willing to say that this person no longer has the "right" to protect themselves or did they concede that right themselves?
now when you say discharged a gun, do you mean shoot the gun or just take it out?
It's Embedded so Deeply into American Culture...Really it should be a Privilege rather then a Right to own a Gun.
no offnese but I respectfully disagree.
Godfather.
do you disagree that gun ownership should be a privilege or that guns are embedded into the culture?
Honest Abe made men free but Samual Colt made them equal......LOL!!! your asking a two sided question . yes and yes guns were part of this country from the start,guns were used to gain our freedom-put food on the table and protect ourselves from wrong doers and those general rules still stand true today,this country has been dealing with bad apples and guns just as long but nobody ever tried to unarm a country until lately with sisy generations.
Godfather.
Nobody has ever said 'disarm'. People have consistently said 'limit'.
It's not such a far-fetched and hair-brained scheme. There are limits and restrictions with virtually everything.
Cue predictable response: we already have limits... we can't own flame throwers or bazookas.
Reframing this discussion might be more useful to constructive solutions. Framed like, "what makes Americans in this era seem more prone to violence than in recent past?"
Was this just always so in this same % and now with webernet we have more ready access to a slanted narrative?
Personally I'm not seeing a more objective "just the facts" kind of reporting anymore, if it ever was that way to begin with and I'm just in a rose colored glasses wasnt it better then kind of state of mind.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Very interesting discussion going on here. I will start by saying that I respect everyone's opinion whether I agree or disagree. This is a topic that someone can go on and on making a point or citing stories or examples to strengthen their position. When discussing "Americas Gun Violence", the first and most obvious attack goes against the gun itself. An inanimate object that requires the operator to perform several functions such as loading with ammunition, loading a round into the chamber, pointing the firearm, & squeezing the trigger. There has been several suggestions as to a solution to decrease gun violence such as new laws, limit what kind of firearms are allowed to be owned. A major problem is that there are existing gun laws now that do not get enforced and allow gun violence to continue. Start enforcing current gun laws with stringent consequences before making new laws. Target the operator or person with the gun. Mental illness is a disability that America has not fully addressed. Many of the stories that make the news involve someone with a gun who should not have one because of their mental state.
I will now stop myself as I do not wish to "preech" on about this topic. I will remind everyone that patriots with the tools of firearms is what lead to our freedom and independence. Firearms have saved the lives of innocent people who have had to defend themselves and others from those wishing to do harm. I am not saying that guns are the answer, Im just saying that before the gun becomes the villain, exam who is behind it first.
Very interesting discussion going on here. I will start by saying that I respect everyone's opinion whether I agree or disagree. This is a topic that someone can go on and on making a point or citing stories or examples to strengthen their position. When discussing "Americas Gun Violence", the first and most obvious attack goes against the gun itself. An inanimate object that requires the operator to perform several functions such as loading with ammunition, loading a round into the chamber, pointing the firearm, & squeezing the trigger. There has been several suggestions as to a solution to decrease gun violence such as new laws, limit what kind of firearms are allowed to be owned. A major problem is that there are existing gun laws now that do not get enforced and allow gun violence to continue. Start enforcing current gun laws with stringent consequences before making new laws. Target the operator or person with the gun. Mental illness is a disability that America has not fully addressed. Many of the stories that make the news involve someone with a gun who should not have one because of their mental state.
I will now stop myself as I do not wish to "preech" on about this topic. I will remind everyone that patriots with the tools of firearms is what lead to our freedom and independence. Firearms have saved the lives of innocent people who have had to defend themselves and others from those wishing to do harm. I am not saying that guns are the answer, Im just saying that before the gun becomes the villain, exam who is behind it first.
Nice post and appreciate your balance when writing.
I struggle with gun ownership. I so value an individuals right to protect oneself. I also know that humans didn't evolve with guns and many can't handle the responsibility. Yes the gun has played a major role in formation of the country but now we lead western countries in gun deaths. If comparing to Germany or Switzerland etc.
So it's not working in its current state. So as you, what do we do? Do we want to be a gun slinging Wild West Country? Does an individuals rights trump the rights of society?
I don't have an answer but we have to acknowledge the present and potential position of arming humans with easy lethal force is not a healthy society. At least not for me.
Very interesting discussion going on here. I will start by saying that I respect everyone's opinion whether I agree or disagree. This is a topic that someone can go on and on making a point or citing stories or examples to strengthen their position. When discussing "Americas Gun Violence", the first and most obvious attack goes against the gun itself. An inanimate object that requires the operator to perform several functions such as loading with ammunition, loading a round into the chamber, pointing the firearm, & squeezing the trigger. There has been several suggestions as to a solution to decrease gun violence such as new laws, limit what kind of firearms are allowed to be owned. A major problem is that there are existing gun laws now that do not get enforced and allow gun violence to continue. Start enforcing current gun laws with stringent consequences before making new laws. Target the operator or person with the gun. Mental illness is a disability that America has not fully addressed. Many of the stories that make the news involve someone with a gun who should not have one because of their mental state.
I will now stop myself as I do not wish to "preech" on about this topic. I will remind everyone that patriots with the tools of firearms is what lead to our freedom and independence. Firearms have saved the lives of innocent people who have had to defend themselves and others from those wishing to do harm. I am not saying that guns are the answer, Im just saying that before the gun becomes the villain, exam who is behind it first.
Yes examine who is behind it and make it as difficult as possible for them to get their hands on weapons. At the same time make a determination that certain types of firearms have absolutely no place in the hands of the public.
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,292
Since being assaulted and talking to a few people about it, I've hear a lot about guns recently:
One person said "I wish that would happen to me. I carry and there would be one less punk on the streets."
Another said, "I'm thinking about carrying. I never would have said that a few years ago."
And another, "I'd have shot him [the one who assaulted me, but there were four in his gang]. I always carry when I'm on my motorcycle"
These are all people I respect in one way or another but only one of them would I feel confident might have gotten out of the situation with a gun and only because that one person is highly trained. I was the one who was assaulted (and two other people who are close to me were in the car) and I can tell you this: we all got out alive and fairly unscathed (except me and I'm ok now). I used my head (even after having it punched hard) and did what it took to get us out of there. If I had used a hand gun people would probably be dead. There were three of us and four of them. Who knows how many guns would have been blazing? Who knows which of us would have died?
One other person I talked to is registered to carry a hand gun and I asked that person, "Would you have used a gun in that instance." They said, "No, you did just the right things."
More guns= more death and it's not always the bad guy who ends up dead. I don't see more guns being the answer.
The way I see it, in our society we have a major problem with violence in general. Would having more guns change that? I'm not so sure.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I honestly don't see why this is so difficult. You have the right to own a gun, but the permitting process should include full background checks and periodic updates (though the latter is a bit of a logistical nightmare once the gun is owned, so the initial background check should be extensive).
I fully agree with States rights, but most laws don't effect across State lines like guns do - i.e. buy in a lenient State then move it without any real checks until you do something (which tends to be too late). So, as much as I hate Federal intervention, this seems to be a no brainer. Have a National Gun registry (and permitting process) and like a car - you own it, you are responsible for whoever "drives" it up to and including equal penalties to the murderer if they use your gun.
With rights go responsibilities. Background check and liability for use seem to be very reasonable to me. If you don't want the responsibilities, you don't have to own a gun. Your choice really. You keep your rights and your freedom of choice.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
I honestly don't see why this is so difficult. You have the right to own a gun, but the permitting process should include full background checks and periodic updates (though the latter is a bit of a logistical nightmare once the gun is owned, so the initial background check should be extensive).
I fully agree with States rights, but most laws don't effect across State lines like guns do - i.e. buy in a lenient State then move it without any real checks until you do something (which tends to be too late). So, as much as I hate Federal intervention, this seems to be a no brainer. Have a National Gun registry (and permitting process) and like a car - you own it, you are responsible for whoever "drives" it up to and including equal penalties to the murderer if they use your gun.
With rights go responsibilities. Background check and liability for use seem to be very reasonable to me. If you don't want the responsibilities, you don't have to own a gun. Your choice really. You keep your rights and your freedom of choice.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
0
unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
edited July 2014
None of that would stop crime where guns are used.
I honestly don't see why this is so difficult. You have the right to own a gun, but the permitting process should include full background checks and periodic updates (though the latter is a bit of a logistical nightmare once the gun is owned, so the initial background check should be extensive).
I fully agree with States rights, but most laws don't effect across State lines like guns do - i.e. buy in a lenient State then move it without any real checks until you do something (which tends to be too late). So, as much as I hate Federal intervention, this seems to be a no brainer. Have a National Gun registry (and permitting process) and like a car - you own it, you are responsible for whoever "drives" it up to and including equal penalties to the murderer if they use your gun.
With rights go responsibilities. Background check and liability for use seem to be very reasonable to me. If you don't want the responsibilities, you don't have to own a gun. Your choice really. You keep your rights and your freedom of choice.
see, THIS makes a shit ton of sense.
I am a very pro gun person. Saying that alone leaves me a target for criticism and ridicule. Unlike other pro gun people, I would be in favor of measures that makes it more difficult for people to obtain guns who are not qualified. What I am not in favor of is the Federal Government involvement. Bottom line is I just dont trust them period. Republicans or Democrats. Definitely not in favor of a National Gun Registry. That just lets the authorities know who has what, and exactly what they have. The scenerio's are endless to "what can happen" with a registry. If there is any Federal Government involvement, I would be in favor of them providing support as opposed to policing gun issues. Provide grants,funding and assistance for firearms training for those who want to obtain a permit to carry, special task forces that can target areas with high gun violence, and enforcing firearms laws and prosecute violators instead of only a small fraction that has been the norm in recent history.
I honestly don't see why this is so difficult. You have the right to own a gun, but the permitting process should include full background checks and periodic updates (though the latter is a bit of a logistical nightmare once the gun is owned, so the initial background check should be extensive).
I fully agree with States rights, but most laws don't effect across State lines like guns do - i.e. buy in a lenient State then move it without any real checks until you do something (which tends to be too late). So, as much as I hate Federal intervention, this seems to be a no brainer. Have a National Gun registry (and permitting process) and like a car - you own it, you are responsible for whoever "drives" it up to and including equal penalties to the murderer if they use your gun.
With rights go responsibilities. Background check and liability for use seem to be very reasonable to me. If you don't want the responsibilities, you don't have to own a gun. Your choice really. You keep your rights and your freedom of choice.
see, THIS makes a shit ton of sense.
I am a very pro gun person. Saying that alone leaves me a target for criticism and ridicule. Unlike other pro gun people, I would be in favor of measures that makes it more difficult for people to obtain guns who are not qualified. What I am not in favor of is the Federal Government involvement. Bottom line is I just dont trust them period. Republicans or Democrats. Definitely not in favor of a National Gun Registry. That just lets the authorities know who has what, and exactly what they have. The scenerio's are endless to "what can happen" with a registry. If there is any Federal Government involvement, I would be in favor of them providing support as opposed to policing gun issues. Provide grants,funding and assistance for firearms training for those who want to obtain a permit to carry, special task forces that can target areas with high gun violence, and enforcing firearms laws and prosecute violators instead of only a small fraction that has been the norm in recent history.
then the right action of holding those responsible accountable for xyz is made exceedingly more difficult. Given the interstate transport and sale of weapons that does fall within the Fed purview. If it were uniform across the country but state administered would that suit you? SOMETHING has to give. I'd prefer it not be more human flesh.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
0
unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
Registration isn't going to stop the shootings in Chicago.
I honestly don't see why this is so difficult. You have the right to own a gun, but the permitting process should include full background checks and periodic updates (though the latter is a bit of a logistical nightmare once the gun is owned, so the initial background check should be extensive).
I fully agree with States rights, but most laws don't effect across State lines like guns do - i.e. buy in a lenient State then move it without any real checks until you do something (which tends to be too late). So, as much as I hate Federal intervention, this seems to be a no brainer. Have a National Gun registry (and permitting process) and like a car - you own it, you are responsible for whoever "drives" it up to and including equal penalties to the murderer if they use your gun.
With rights go responsibilities. Background check and liability for use seem to be very reasonable to me. If you don't want the responsibilities, you don't have to own a gun. Your choice really. You keep your rights and your freedom of choice.
Think this may well be the way to go including gun registration. Stolen guns could be traced. Heck do ballistic check on each and trace murder weapons.
To those that fear the government would then know who has guns and easier to confiscate, well if this type of policy would be enacted there would be immediate backlash and chaos.
Yes this would infringe on privacy which blows but we have to do something right?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Where? From where do these weapons come that wind up on the black market and other places that criminals use to commit these crimes?
Tell me that and I'll offer a possible solution other than whats been repeatedly offered to date.
Are you replying to me? Not sure of your question.
not your specifically. Just in general.
If ,in large part, a lot of these killings,(chicago especially) are done with illegally obtained or possessed guns, then logic dictates we ask from where do they come?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Comments
I replied in the thread- where the conversation was.
Be cool.
In Huston last night, there was shooting of 4 kids and 2 adults with another kid in the hospital with life threatening injuries.
I don't believe that Texas has strict gun laws like Chicago or am I am wrong?
just so that people can read the story.
Godfather.
Do you believe that the ability to defend yourself is a privilege or a right?
now will you answer a question for me? what is a "right" mean to you? can a right be subjective ie some people have it and some people don't.
I should also be able to defend myself with equal or greater means than my attacker. Or do you believe that a woman shouldn't be able to defend herself with a gun against a 6' 250lb man with a knife?
question for you, should a man with major mental health issues be able to buy a gun? should a person who went to jail for say gun related assault be allowed to buy a gun also?
But who decides that diagnosis?
As far as the other I'd need better specifics. Gun crimes can be something as simple as being a concealed carry holder accidentally walking into a field that is school property. I have a problem with that.
If we are talking about someone discharging a gun in the commission of a crime such as a robbery I wouldn't allow it. That person didn't have their right taken away, they conceded it themselves.
Godfather.
if that does suit you, are you willing to say that this person no longer has the "right" to protect themselves or did they concede that right themselves?
now when you say discharged a gun, do you mean shoot the gun or just take it out?
It's not such a far-fetched and hair-brained scheme. There are limits and restrictions with virtually everything.
Cue predictable response: we already have limits... we can't own flame throwers or bazookas.
Was this just always so in this same % and now with webernet we have more ready access to a slanted narrative?
Personally I'm not seeing a more objective "just the facts" kind of reporting anymore, if it ever was that way to begin with and I'm just in a rose colored glasses wasnt it better then kind of state of mind.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
His apartment was being robbed and he stumbled upon the robbery. The suspect used a gun he'd found in the apartment.. Sad story.
http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/crossfade/2014/07/louis-salgar_murder_suspect_identified_raul-reinosa.php
I will now stop myself as I do not wish to "preech" on about this topic. I will remind everyone that patriots with the tools of firearms is what lead to our freedom and independence. Firearms have saved the lives of innocent people who have had to defend themselves and others from those wishing to do harm. I am not saying that guns are the answer, Im just saying that before the gun becomes the villain, exam who is behind it first.
I struggle with gun ownership. I so value an individuals right to protect oneself. I also know that humans didn't evolve with guns and many can't handle the responsibility. Yes the gun has played a major role in formation of the country but now we lead western countries in gun deaths. If comparing to Germany or Switzerland etc.
So it's not working in its current state. So as you, what do we do? Do we want to be a gun slinging Wild West Country? Does an individuals rights trump the rights of society?
I don't have an answer but we have to acknowledge the present and potential position of arming humans with easy lethal force is not a healthy society. At least not for me.
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
One person said "I wish that would happen to me. I carry and there would be one less punk on the streets."
Another said, "I'm thinking about carrying. I never would have said that a few years ago."
And another, "I'd have shot him [the one who assaulted me, but there were four in his gang]. I always carry when I'm on my motorcycle"
These are all people I respect in one way or another but only one of them would I feel confident might have gotten out of the situation with a gun and only because that one person is highly trained. I was the one who was assaulted (and two other people who are close to me were in the car) and I can tell you this: we all got out alive and fairly unscathed (except me and I'm ok now). I used my head (even after having it punched hard) and did what it took to get us out of there. If I had used a hand gun people would probably be dead. There were three of us and four of them. Who knows how many guns would have been blazing? Who knows which of us would have died?
One other person I talked to is registered to carry a hand gun and I asked that person, "Would you have used a gun in that instance." They said, "No, you did just the right things."
More guns= more death and it's not always the bad guy who ends up dead. I don't see more guns being the answer.
The way I see it, in our society we have a major problem with violence in general. Would having more guns change that? I'm not so sure.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I fully agree with States rights, but most laws don't effect across State lines like guns do - i.e. buy in a lenient State then move it without any real checks until you do something (which tends to be too late). So, as much as I hate Federal intervention, this seems to be a no brainer. Have a National Gun registry (and permitting process) and like a car - you own it, you are responsible for whoever "drives" it up to and including equal penalties to the murderer if they use your gun.
With rights go responsibilities. Background check and liability for use seem to be very reasonable to me. If you don't want the responsibilities, you don't have to own a gun. Your choice really. You keep your rights and your freedom of choice.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
To those that fear the government would then know who has guns and easier to confiscate, well if this type of policy would be enacted there would be immediate backlash and chaos.
Yes this would infringe on privacy which blows but we have to do something right?
Tell me that and I'll offer a possible solution other than whats been repeatedly offered to date.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
If ,in large part, a lot of these killings,(chicago especially) are done with illegally obtained or possessed guns, then logic dictates we ask from where do they come?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14