Deadliest School Massacre in US History...........

gimmesometruth27

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

callen said:

rgambs said:

josevolution said:

I believe as a Society here in America we have gotten way more violent ...

i think that is wrong...i think our violence is public domain now rather than private...but more violent? No way. prior to the 60s there were millions of women who's husbands were physically abusive, and it wasnt a story you would see on the news...it was just a way of life. Let's not forget lynch mobs and racial violence, which also tapered off in the 60s and were also unreported and accepted as a way of life.

Tend to agree We are animals with inherent violence. Would hope that we could evolve but hasn't yet been the case.

primates do not arbitrarily and indiscriminately murder other primates. humans are the only primates who routinely do that.

This isn't true. Chimpanzees are very territorial and rival groups fighting over resources is a way of life.

being territorial and killing a "rival group" is not the same thing as one primate walking into a building with one or many weapons and wasting a bunch of primates who are of no threat to him. other primates do not do things like that to make a statement. that is exclusive to the human being.

Regardless of motivation, if we focus strictly on the violence and less on motivation, chimpanzees are more prone to violent behaviours than humans:

Can chimpanzee skirmishes tell people anything about their own violent tendencies? One lesson, which may surprise cynics, is that humans are more peaceful than chimps. The rate of killing Dr Mitani reports is between one-and-a-half and five times that seen in human agricultural societies—and between five and 17 times higher than attrition due to warfare among hunter-gatherers, who could have less need to defend territory than farmers.

Although it is generally accepted that chimps fight rival groups for territory and resources, not all of their behaviour is explained easily. Chimpanzees will mutilate chimps they have killed and in skirmishes (it's been suggested to 'make a statement') , chimpanzee mothers were often beaten as the raiders snatched and killed their offspring. Though these assaults on mothers were rarely lethal, patrolling chimps were clearly more likely to batter females than recruit them as mates, suggesting that other motives might drive their violent behaviour.

http://www.economist.com/node/16422404

I'm not trying to make an excuse for the two apes this thread is dedicated to and I'm not trying to give them credit in any way- they deserve their deaths. I'm just saying that most species of apes- including human beings- are prone to violent behaviour. Human beings are a little more sophisticated than other apes, therefore our motivation might be more difficult to explain at times. It just seems overly simplistic to claim that these two losers went on a murder/suicide mission to send a message.

i am sorry, but every single school shooting has been done to send a message. most of these shooters have left trails online stating such. though the motivations are different, most of these people feel that "i/we will show them...."

if someone is violent for the sake of violence with no other motivation, that is more in line with lower primates. chimps, even though intelligent, have no political motivation, have no manifestos that they act on to make a statement. they aren't smart enough to make a bomb, they are not smart enough to understand terrorism and the intricacies of it, etc. they are territorial and they fight to express dominance. when do human become violent on such a basic level?? to prove murder you must prove a motive. i don't care who you are, all human killers have a motive, and in the case in the OP this guy was clearly making a statement. he was anti tax, lost an election, so he murdered his wife, blew up a school, and then blew himself up.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Gimme...

I'm not sure if we are arguing or agreeing? You suggest these people have motives. I agree with you, however I think the motivation runs a little deeper than what you offer and is a by-product of our very complicated nature.

If we look at the tip of the iceberg, we see an intent to 'leave a message'; however, there is much more to it than that. For example, the two losers in Las Vegas were 'shaped' into the losers they became. They were indoctrinated into a mentality that saw them express their beliefs in violent fashion against a perceived opponent.

Much like the grooming of suicide bombers, the process which saw them transformed into homicidal maniacs has its roots in the fallibility of human nature. I can't produce a timeline of events (small and large) that were responsible for such attitudes taking hold of these idiots, but we have to acknowledge that these events did occur. This act did not come about haphazardly.

More succinctly: because we are complex... our behaviours are complex. Chimps orchestrate their violence to the level their capacity permits and, sadly, humans do as well. There is a legitimate comparison.

gimmesometruth27

the majority of the "shaping" that these dildos had was done by right wing media. their social media posts were essentially regurgitating right wing talking points. plus they were too crazy for the folks at the bundy ranch. that is saying something right there.

beck, alex jones, fox news, et al, all bear responsibility when these crazy right wingers go on these rampages.

when is the last time someone inspired by huffington post or msnbc, or sirius left have gone on a rampage like this?? what is the common thread for most of these killers??

Thirty Bills Unpaid

gimmesometruth27 said:

the majority of the "shaping" that these dildos had was done by right wing media. their social media posts were essentially regurgitating right wing talking points. plus they were too crazy for the folks at the bundy ranch. that is saying something right there.

beck, alex jones, fox news, et al, all bear responsibility when these crazy right wingers go on these rampages.

when is the last time someone inspired by huffington post or msnbc, or sirius left have gone on a rampage like this?? what is the common thread for most of these killers??

Your last comment bears noting.

Everybody is quick to step aside from these situations and point their finger away from themselves, but there is an inherent level of complicity in these cases that rarely gets pointed out.

unsung

gimmesometruth27 said:

the majority of the "shaping" that these dildos had was done by right wing media. their social media posts were essentially regurgitating right wing talking points. plus they were too crazy for the folks at the bundy ranch. that is saying something right there.

beck, alex jones, fox news, et al, all bear responsibility when these crazy right wingers go on these rampages.

when is the last time someone inspired by huffington post or msnbc, or sirius left have gone on a rampage like this?? what is the common thread for most of these killers??

Actually quite a few of these shooters of recent past were registered Democrats.

Halifax2TheMax

unsung said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

the majority of the "shaping" that these dildos had was done by right wing media. their social media posts were essentially regurgitating right wing talking points. plus they were too crazy for the folks at the bundy ranch. that is saying something right there.

beck, alex jones, fox news, et al, all bear responsibility when these crazy right wingers go on these rampages.

when is the last time someone inspired by huffington post or msnbc, or sirius left have gone on a rampage like this?? what is the common thread for most of these killers??

Actually quite a few of these shooters of recent past were registered Democrats.

Yea sure. How's that fantasy world you occupy?

Peace.

http://thinkprogress.org/election/2014/05/18/3438967/shootings-democrats-arizona/

An Arizona Republican running for Congress argued that Democrats commit nearly all the mass shootings in the country. Gary Kiehne, a rancher looking to unseat Rep. Ann Kirkpatrick (D-AZ), made the claim when asked about gun rights at a Republican primary debate on Saturday.

“If you look at all the fiascos that have occurred, 99 percent of them have been by Democrats pulling their guns out and shooting people,” Kiehne said. “So I don’t think you have a problem with the Republicans.”

Kiehne also boasted that he had “more guns and ammo than any one of my competitors.”

Kiehne’s claim that 99 percent of shootings were committed by Democrats is completely false, yet continues to be a persistent myth on the radical right. Roger Hedgecock, a conservative radio host, seems to have originated this message soon after the Newtown shooting, as President Obama was preparing a plan to combat gun violence.

http://jaxairnews.jacksonville.com/news/premium-news/2013-03-14/story/fact-check-email-was-wrong-about-recent-mass-killers-being

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/kiehne-apologizes-for-saying-mass-shooters-are-democrats/article_d2750e68-df81-11e3-ab58-0019bb2963f4.html

http://mnprogressiveproject.com/50493/

backseatLover12

http://billmoyers.com/2013/05/03/gun-violence-since-newtown/

F Me In The Brain

~X(
It is tough believe that we are not more violent now.

An article from yesterday that cited 74 school shootings in the US since the tragedy at Sandy Hook.

boston.com/news/nation/2014/06/10/map-the-school-shootings-since-newtown/Wymqpb9UepjhHGg5rPCFqJ/story.html

Maybe we were always violent but at least the consequences of our violence now seems to be much worse. Rather than 1 person snapping and beating another human to death they now take out a handful.

I think it is putting your head in the sand if you think domestic violence (which seemingly has gone on since men and women tried living together) can equate to these rotten asshats shooting people they do not like.

jmuscatello

backseatLover12 said:

http://billmoyers.com/2013/05/03/gun-violence-since-newtown/

great summary... used different criteria than Everytown, and came up with 79
any way you slice it, too much

backseatLover12

Halifax2TheMax said:

unsung said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

the majority of the "shaping" that these dildos had was done by right wing media. their social media posts were essentially regurgitating right wing talking points. plus they were too crazy for the folks at the bundy ranch. that is saying something right there.

beck, alex jones, fox news, et al, all bear responsibility when these crazy right wingers go on these rampages.

when is the last time someone inspired by huffington post or msnbc, or sirius left have gone on a rampage like this?? what is the common thread for most of these killers??

Actually quite a few of these shooters of recent past were registered Democrats.

Yea sure. How's that fantasy world you occupy?

Peace.

http://thinkprogress.org/election/2014/05/18/3438967/shootings-democrats-arizona/

An Arizona Republican running for Congress argued that Democrats commit nearly all the mass shootings in the country. Gary Kiehne, a rancher looking to unseat Rep. Ann Kirkpatrick (D-AZ), made the claim when asked about gun rights at a Republican primary debate on Saturday.

“If you look at all the fiascos that have occurred, 99 percent of them have been by Democrats pulling their guns out and shooting people,” Kiehne said. “So I don’t think you have a problem with the Republicans.”

Kiehne also boasted that he had “more guns and ammo than any one of my competitors.”

Kiehne’s claim that 99 percent of shootings were committed by Democrats is completely false, yet continues to be a persistent myth on the radical right. Roger Hedgecock, a conservative radio host, seems to have originated this message soon after the Newtown shooting, as President Obama was preparing a plan to combat gun violence.

http://jaxairnews.jacksonville.com/news/premium-news/2013-03-14/story/fact-check-email-was-wrong-about-recent-mass-killers-being

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/kiehne-apologizes-for-saying-mass-shooters-are-democrats/article_d2750e68-df81-11e3-ab58-0019bb2963f4.html

http://mnprogressiveproject.com/50493/

Ya know, politicizing these tragic events couldn't be more wrong. You all should be ashamed of yourselves, reducing it all to your convenient political leanings.

gimmesometruth27

everything is political in this country these days. EVERY THING.

backseatLover12

gimmesometruth27 said:

everything is political in this country these days. EVERY THING.

Death is not politics. This is a SOCIAL issue.

The INDIVIDUAL makes it political. The individual can make anything political. But it doesn't mean it is.

gimmesometruth27

the reason for death in this case IS political. the killers had a political agenda.

Halifax2TheMax

backseatLover12 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

unsung said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

the majority of the "shaping" that these dildos had was done by right wing media. their social media posts were essentially regurgitating right wing talking points. plus they were too crazy for the folks at the bundy ranch. that is saying something right there.

beck, alex jones, fox news, et al, all bear responsibility when these crazy right wingers go on these rampages.

when is the last time someone inspired by huffington post or msnbc, or sirius left have gone on a rampage like this?? what is the common thread for most of these killers??

Actually quite a few of these shooters of recent past were registered Democrats.

Yea sure. How's that fantasy world you occupy?

Peace.

http://thinkprogress.org/election/2014/05/18/3438967/shootings-democrats-arizona/

An Arizona Republican running for Congress argued that Democrats commit nearly all the mass shootings in the country. Gary Kiehne, a rancher looking to unseat Rep. Ann Kirkpatrick (D-AZ), made the claim when asked about gun rights at a Republican primary debate on Saturday.

“If you look at all the fiascos that have occurred, 99 percent of them have been by Democrats pulling their guns out and shooting people,” Kiehne said. “So I don’t think you have a problem with the Republicans.”

Kiehne also boasted that he had “more guns and ammo than any one of my competitors.”

Kiehne’s claim that 99 percent of shootings were committed by Democrats is completely false, yet continues to be a persistent myth on the radical right. Roger Hedgecock, a conservative radio host, seems to have originated this message soon after the Newtown shooting, as President Obama was preparing a plan to combat gun violence.

http://jaxairnews.jacksonville.com/news/premium-news/2013-03-14/story/fact-check-email-was-wrong-about-recent-mass-killers-being

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/kiehne-apologizes-for-saying-mass-shooters-are-democrats/article_d2750e68-df81-11e3-ab58-0019bb2963f4.html

http://mnprogressiveproject.com/50493/

Ya know, politicizing these tragic events couldn't be more wrong. You all should be ashamed of yourselves, reducing it all to your convenient political leanings.

If pointing out the fallacy of Unsung's statement makes me politicize the issue, guilty as charged. Facts should matter in this debate as in all debates. Facts have been missing and/or the deliberate misrepresentation of facts have been all too prevalent in our political discourse of late. Part of the overall problem IMHO.

We should all be ashamed of ourselves that since Newtown, nothing has been done to stem the carnage. There's the real shame.

Are you saying that there can't be a POLITICAL solution to this issue?

Peace.

Halifax2TheMax

FYI

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2012/12/gun_death_tally_every_american_gun_death_since_newtown_sandy_hook_shooting.html

And it doesn't include the first five and a half months of this year.

Peace.

backseatLover12

gimmesometruth27 said:

the reason for death in this case IS political. the killers had a political agenda.

So, you know what was going on in this particular killer's head and that they've got political motives...

Yes, there could be a political solution, but trying the same tactics over and over again do not provide different results. Obviously gun control isn't going to work. But start talking about other possibilities, and maybe something will.

Politics does nothing but breed hate and divide people. The less we work ourselves up over politics - something we cannot control - the less miserable we are. Think about that.

PJ_Soul

rgambs said:

josevolution said:

I believe as a Society here in America we have gotten way more violent ...

i think that is wrong...i think our violence is public domain now rather than private...but more violent? No way. prior to the 60s there were millions of women who's husbands were physically abusive, and it wasnt a story you would see on the news...it was just a way of life. Let's not forget lynch mobs and racial violence, which also tapered off in the 60s and were also unreported and accepted as a way of life.

Not to mention the fact that people were regularly lynching black people and shooting just about anyone they wanted in the wild west, beating the shit out of each other without consequence in most cases in most areas of America right up until around the time WWII started. And let's not forget about how teachers could beat children with wooden paddles and sticks, it was completely normal for dads to whip their kids with a belt, and mobsters and cops were having shoot outs on busy streets on a regular basis during prohibition. It was practically a free for all before the 60s in America. No clue where people got the idea that everyone was all prim and proper and well behaved in America before the 60s. That could not be further from the truth.

Smellyman

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

josevolution said:

I believe as a Society here in America we have gotten way more violent ...

i think that is wrong...i think our violence is public domain now rather than private...but more violent? No way. prior to the 60s there were millions of women who's husbands were physically abusive, and it wasnt a story you would see on the news...it was just a way of life. Let's not forget lynch mobs and racial violence, which also tapered off in the 60s and were also unreported and accepted as a way of life.

Not to mention the fact that people were regularly lynching black people and shooting just about anyone they wanted in the wild west, beating the shit out of each other without consequence in most cases in most areas of America right up until around the time WWII started. And let's not forget about how teachers could beat children with wooden paddles and sticks, it was completely normal for dads to whip their kids with a belt, and mobsters and cops were having shoot outs on busy streets on a regular basis during prohibition. It was practically a free for all before the 60s in America. No clue where people got the idea that everyone was all prim and proper and well behaved in America before the 60s. That could not be further from the truth.

the golden era conservatives long for......

Cosmo

elvistheking44 said:

was in 1927.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

Have we gotten more violent, or do we just hear more about it through media? I always here about how fucked up we are becoming and how violent people have gotten. This was almost 100 years ago. So......are we more violent now?

...
I wonder.... in 1927, did people want to somehow restrict the sale of dynamite at the local Cress' 5 and 10 cent stores after this?
And were there pro-dynamite people saying, "Dynamite doesn't kill people, people who kill people by blowing them up with dynamite kill people" and "More people are killed by buckboards... let's ban all buckboards."?

PJ_Soul

Cosmo said:

elvistheking44 said:

was in 1927.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

Have we gotten more violent, or do we just hear more about it through media? I always here about how fucked up we are becoming and how violent people have gotten. This was almost 100 years ago. So......are we more violent now?

...
I wonder.... in 1927, did people want to somehow restrict the sale of dynamite at the local Cress' 5 and 10 cent stores after this?
And were there pro-dynamite people saying, "Dynamite doesn't kill people, people who kill people by blowing them up with dynamite kill people" and "More people are killed by buckboards... let's ban all buckboards."?

Hahaha. Funny!