Tiananmen Square 25 Years Ago

Byrnzie

I was thinking today about the Tienanmen Square massacre. What changed because of it? Not much. Just a speeding up of an influx of Capitalism and a love of the mighty $$$, along with a cementing of power and restrictions by the old gangsters in Beijing.
As for the future of China, Westerners love talking about this. It's like a game to see who can prophesy when and how the 'inevitable' downfall of the Communist system will come about. But I think this is mostly just projecting. We like to think that the Chinese want the same things as us, and want the same lifestyle as us. I don't think they do, except for maybe the superficial trappings and gimmicks. They want certain basics rights and securities, but apart from that, they're mostly perfectly satisfied that politics is left in the hands of those at the top. Most people just don't give a fuck about it, because for the majority, it rarely effects them.
I watched a documentary today called 'The Gate of Heavenly Peace' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVvwA_34WB8 and at one point [part 14] a singer from Taiwan says 'Our culture, as well as the political system in mainland China, suppresses the individual, and promotes the collective. Collectivism and patriotism are used to make the majority serve the few. The message is: You're not allowed to care about yourself...I call the 1989 movement 'a self-liberation movement. Did Mao really liberate the Chinese people? Gradually people realized "We're not really liberated". "We want to liberate ourselves". During the movement, everyone wanted to release their pent-up anger and frustration.'
I think this essentially sums it up. The idealistic youth of 1989 wanting to throw off some of the shackles of heavily ingrained Chinese cultural indoctrination. The main difference today being that China's youth are so numbed by excessive schooling and peer pressure, that by the time they get to university they've mostly had any spark of independence and/or creativity squeezed out of them. That, coupled with the fact that information is so tightly controlled, restricted, and manipulated.
I think the question that should be asked is: Do the Chinese want democracy? Do they want freedom? And I think the answer to that is: No. The students in 1989 weren't necessarily fighting for political freedom, so much as personal freedom, or cultural freedom. And such freedom can't be granted from the top down. It comes from the bottom up. And most Chinese are still enmeshed in a culture that tells them that they have to be married by the age of thirty or be regarded as an outcast. They live in a culture that's obsessed with hierarchy, and respect for authority. It's a society where group-think is standard, and rebellion and dissent are almost unheard of. There are exceptions, such as those people I listed earlier, but most Chinese are now just concerned with making money and doing what they're told by their parents: i,e, get good grades, get a good job, get married, and have a baby.
What did 1989 mean? Not much. Just a brief wave of dissent in an otherwise flat sea of obedience.

Though I could be wrong about this. [Just thinking out loud].

unsung

I don't have time to watch your video, I have to hurry and get to Wal-Mart and get another useless electronic device made in China that I don't need but will make me forget about my shitty life and how I'm so fucking pathetic that I'd actually get there at midnight on Thanksgiving so I can save $8. I'll do this with the other hordes of living dead who will probably try to assault me over saving that $8 all the while we support a regime that endlessly abuses it's people and also cut my own throat because all of our jobs were shipped over there.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

unsung said:

I don't have time to watch your video, I have to hurry and get to Wal-Mart and get another useless electronic device made in China that I don't need but will make me forget about my shitty life and how I'm so fucking pathetic that I'd actually get there at midnight on Thanksgiving so I can save $8. I'll do this with the other hordes of living dead who will probably try to assault me over saving that $8 all the while we support a regime that endlessly abuses it's people and also cut my own throat because all of our jobs were shipped over there.

Thanks for the heads up. I'll try to beat you there to get the deal before you.

Drowned Out

.

Drowned Out

What do you guys think about these articles?

Tiananmen: the massacre that wasn't
What really happened 25 years ago in Tiananmen Square?
http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/what-really-happened-in.html

From the “Tiananmen Massacre” to the “Lhasa Protests”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/from-the-tiananmen-massacre-to-the-lhasa-protests/8635

Both articles provide witness accounts from students and Western journalists that seem to corroborate the Chinese government's claim that the protestors left the square peacefully around dawn...and that much of the bloodshed was due to student actions against police and military forces, mostly on the streets around the square, with virtually no violence occurring in the square itself.....both articles claim that Western media manipulated the truth to vilify the Chinese government by lying about and grossly exaggerated the casualties. One article went so far as to say that the West actively supported 'regime change' via the protests. Remember this was a time when the Soviet Union was failing, and the iron curtain (and break-away) states were seeking capitalist allies....

Is this just revisionist Chinese propaganda being fed thru Western outlets?...or is there something to it? I know I sure as hell don't trust our media any more than other countries...

Byrnzie

Drowned Out said:

What do you guys think about these articles?

Tiananmen: the massacre that wasn't
What really happened 25 years ago in Tiananmen Square?
http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/what-really-happened-in.html

From the “Tiananmen Massacre” to the “Lhasa Protests”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/from-the-tiananmen-massacre-to-the-lhasa-protests/8635

Both articles provide witness accounts from students and Western journalists that seem to corroborate the Chinese government's claim that the protestors left the square peacefully around dawn...and that much of the bloodshed was due to student actions against police and military forces, mostly on the streets around the square, with virtually no violence occurring in the square itself.....both articles claim that Western media manipulated the truth to vilify the Chinese government by lying about and grossly exaggerated the casualties. One article went so far as to say that the West actively supported 'regime change' via the protests. Remember this was a time when the Soviet Union was failing, and the iron curtain (and break-away) states were seeking capitalist allies....

Is this just revisionist Chinese propaganda being fed thru Western outlets?...or is there something to it? I know I sure as hell don't trust our media any more than other countries...

Apparently most of the killing took place along the approach roads to the square, in the West of the city. http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/dclarke/public/Munro_Who_Died_in_Beijing_and_Why.pdf

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Byrnzie...

What about my enquiry to the class stratification in China? Is there a prominent middle class in China?

Byrnzie

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Byrnzie...

What about my enquiry to the class stratification in China? Is there a prominent middle class in China?

There's no class system in China, at least not in the way it exists in Britain. The main dividing lines here tend to lie between the cities and the countryside, with most of the migrant workers from the countryside being denied certain basic rights when working in the cities, due to the household registration system, or Hukou, which essentially ties them to their place of origin, and prevents them from claiming education, the right to buy property, and basic services, in the cities.

A lot of the cities along the coast of China are very rich now. Go to Shanghai and you'll see that it makes London and new York look like a garbage bins. Most people in my city tend to drive BMW's, and there's also a Lamborghini parked outside my building on most days. But in the countryside most people still live pretty basic lives. You go inside some houses and see that the only furniture the family has is one bed.

Basically, China is all contradictions.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Byrnzie said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Byrnzie...

What about my enquiry to the class stratification in China? Is there a prominent middle class in China?

The main dividing lines here tend to lie between the cities and the countryside, with most of the migrant workers from the countryside being denied certain basic rights when working in the cities, due to the household registration system, or Hukou, which essentially ties them to their place of origin, and prevents them from claiming education, the right to buy property, and basic services, in the cities.

This is interesting.

So, in essence, the opportunity for some to rise from poverty is non-existent... or at a very minimum... extremely difficult... because Hokou limits people based on where they are born?

Byrnzie

Yep. But: http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2013/12/17/china-to-abolish-hukou-system.html

mattsl1983

Sometimes I wish good ol' benzine would rely less on quoting articles and posting links and more on actual self thought and self ideas. I know, it's easy to just take sides when you read a certain sides propaganda and run with it.

From England? Your welcome.

Never answered the DB Cooper avatar question... Still trying to find a link or an article that supports your decision?

Last-12-Exit

Im not trying to derail the thread but I like the db Cooper avatar. Plus, byrnzie and big bank hank are the only 2 dudes I've seen here that quote themselves in the signature. Classic stuff.

Byrnzie

mattsl1983 said:

Sometimes I wish good ol' benzine would rely less on quoting articles and posting links and more on actual self thought and self ideas. I know, it's easy to just take sides when you read a certain sides propaganda and run with it.

You must have missed the numerous comments I've posted right here in this very thread then. Or maybe you're just pretending to have missed them so as to have an opportunity to make a snide comment.

Well done!

Though, I actually couldn't give a fuck whether you like it or not. If source material, facts, and articles, bother you so much, then don't read them. Pretty simple really.

mattsl1983 said:

From England?  Your welcome.

What's that supposed to mean?

mattsl1983 said:

Never answered the DB Cooper avatar question... Still trying to find a link or an article that supports your decision?

Firstly, what the fuck does it have to do with this thread?

Secondly, are you really so conceited that you think I, or anyone else, has to pander to your every whim?

Oh, and my name isn't benzine, moron.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

I believe it's spelled moran.

At least it was in that picture Gern posted in one of these recent threads.

Let's strive for consistency!

Byrnzie

mattsl1983 said:

Sometimes I wish good ol' benzine would rely less on quoting articles and posting links and more on actual self thought and self ideas. I know, it's easy to just take sides when you read a certain sides propaganda and run with it.

From England? Your welcome.

Never answered the DB Cooper avatar question... Still trying to find a link or an article that supports your decision?

It's lame, snide posts like this that make me question why I still bother coming here.

You create a thread to try and get an interesting discussion going, and you're met with "benzine, I hate to bring the real World to you...and I wish you could think for yourself, instead of relying on propaganda. Oh, and where are you from anyway? And why do you have DB Cooper as your avatar?"

Seriously, what's the fucking point? You get more constructive debates going on Youtube these days.

mattsl1983

Well benzie, or however my auto correct respells it is very simple.

To any of your points or augments you make you do nothing but post pages upon pages of links and quotes from other people. It's like you sit there and pick a side, and then instead of adding any rational you simply google anything that backs your belief and post it as if that's your own profound thought. And yes, for someone who consistently wants to critizise everything about the USA, you pick an American as your avatar. I think that's a bit strange.

Look up England's history in the past 100 years and you will know why I say, you are welcome.

brianlux

You guys need to get together over a couple of pints and no Google. You might find a way to laugh it all off rather quickly and have a good time. Given the opportunity, I'd do the same with anyone here. Shake hands boys, we don't need anyone else bailing here.

Byrnzie

mattsl1983 said:

Well benzie, or however my auto correct respells it is very simple.

To any of your points or augments you make you do nothing but post pages upon pages of links and quotes from other people. It's like you sit there and pick a side, and then instead of adding any rational you simply google anything that backs your belief and post it as if that's your own profound thought. And yes, for someone who consistently wants to critizise everything about the USA, you pick an American as your avatar. I think that's a bit strange.

Look up England's history in the past 100 years and you will know why I say, you are welcome.

Well Dickhead, or however my auto correct spells it, the fact of the matter is that I couldn't give a flying fuck what you think about me.

Though if you'd like to provide just one example of when I've posted an article, quote, or anything else, and then pretended that it's my 'own profound thought', then go ahead.

And as for England owing the U.S anything, you really are as ignorant as I thought.

Let me know when you have something intelligent to contribute, in-between carrying on like a petulant little child.

mattsl1983

Dude, you are so right. Keep fighting the good fight.

And I do find it a bit troublesome that Mattsl1983 gets auto corrected to dickhead. Maybe that's what's wrong with your google machine? Damn ol keyboard just ain't typing in the correct letters?

Also note I criticized you without any name calling and pointed out how you act on this forum. Thanks for the name calling, and glad that it doesn't bother you at all. Take it easy.

Byrnzie

mattsl1983 said:

Dude, you are so right. Keep fighting the good fight.

And I do find it a bit troublesome that Mattsl1983 gets auto corrected to dickhead. Maybe that's what's wrong with your google machine? Damn ol keyboard just ain't typing in the correct letters?

Also note I criticized you without any name calling and pointed out how you act on this forum. Thanks for the name calling, and glad that it doesn't bother you at all. Take it easy.

Ha ha ha! Now he plays the victim card.

Yep, I'm sure you'll have the mods fooled with that one, Dickhead. (Damn auto-correct. There it goes again!)

Thanks for derailing this thread with your trolling and personal attacks. You're a shining example to us all.