Elliot Rodger - California killing spree - all the issues

PJ_Soul

mickeyrat said:

hedonist said:

mickeyrat said:

I'll say this for the Op subject, this little douchebag and the subsequent discussions related to mysogyny has made me think how I view the other half of our species.

Sadly it takes conscious effort to see women as human beings first. Suppose that personal awareness is one good thing to come from this. Damn shame it took that to get me thinking.

mickey...it takes conscious effort by whom? How so?

Most of the good guys I know haven't had to struggle to see me (or women in general) as a human being; they grew up and were raised that way, led by example by both men and women. Some got it after having daughters of their own. Sons of their own.

That said, the more I see and hear of this little fuck, the more I wonder how much was brought on by society/upbringing, or by his nature. Maybe both?

I cant rightly speak for anyone but myself, but I have noticed how i intially see women. Tend to be respectful in direct contact. But I cannot deny the fact of lower base self and the internal reaction that comes from it. Any man who says otherwise is fucking liar.

I completely disagree that any man who says otherwise is a liar.... but it's clear that too many men feel the way you do. Unfortunately, women can't change this kind of thinking. Men have to do it. And there are very few men out there willing to do this.

mickeyrat

you of course have your rght to your opinion. I'm out.

hedonist

mickeyrat said:

hedonist said:

mickeyrat said:

I'll say this for the Op subject, this little douchebag and the subsequent discussions related to mysogyny has made me think how I view the other half of our species.

Sadly it takes conscious effort to see women as human beings first. Suppose that personal awareness is one good thing to come from this. Damn shame it took that to get me thinking.

mickey...it takes conscious effort by whom? How so?

Most of the good guys I know haven't had to struggle to see me (or women in general) as a human being; they grew up and were raised that way, led by example by both men and women. Some got it after having daughters of their own. Sons of their own.

That said, the more I see and hear of this little fuck, the more I wonder how much was brought on by society/upbringing, or by his nature. Maybe both?

I cant rightly speak for anyone but myself, but I have noticed how i intially see women. Tend to be respectful in direct contact. But I cannot deny the fact of lower base self and the internal reaction that comes from it. Any man who says otherwise is fucking liar.

Well, I appreciate your honesty. It's not always easy to look at ourselves as we are, vs what we think or hope we are.

This woman says thanks for opening your eyes / mind

PJ_Soul

mickeyrat said:

you of course have your rght to your opinion. I'm out.

:( I did not intend to make you feel like you were being given a hard time.... I just mistook your admission as sarcasm. Sorry.

jeffbr

mickeyrat said:

Any man who says otherwise is fucking liar.

Wow. I'll say otherwise, and am definitely not lying. I understand we objectify certain things or people, but I can honestly say I've never had to consciously view women as humans. They just are.

mickeyrat

jeffbr said:

mickeyrat said:

Any man who says otherwise is fucking liar.

Wow. I'll say otherwise, and am definitely not lying. I understand we objectify certain things or people, but I can honestly say I've never had to consciously view women as humans. They just are.

as soley human not female. poor wording choice on my part.

dignin

mickeyrat said:

jeffbr said:

mickeyrat said:

Any man who says otherwise is fucking liar.

Wow. I'll say otherwise, and am definitely not lying. I understand we objectify certain things or people, but I can honestly say I've never had to consciously view women as humans. They just are.

as soley human not female. poor wording choice on my part.

I was wondering what you were getting at.

I don't see how I can't look at a woman as a human and woman at the same time though.

So maybe I'm still a little confused.

rgambs

i think it possible he was saying that he cant (initially) separate appreciation for a womans secondary sexual characteristics from her personality characteristics. If that was what was meant, then I agree that men who claim otherwise are lying. Hormones be swimmin and theres no escaping it. Women approach and think of a man differently than they do a woman, this is natural. I think it was just a lack of elaboration and slightly poor choice of words.

mickeyrat

rgambs said:

i think it possible he was saying that he cant (initially) separate appreciation for a womans secondary sexual characteristics from her personality characteristics. If that was what was meant, then I agree that men who claim otherwise are lying. Hormones be swimmin and theres no escaping it. Women approach and think of a man differently than they do a woman, this is natural. I think it was just a lack of elaboration and slightly poor choice of words.

Thank you.

dignin

rgambs said:

i think it possible he was saying that he cant (initially) separate appreciation for a womans secondary sexual characteristics from her personality characteristics. If that was what was meant, then I agree that men who claim otherwise are lying. Hormones be swimmin and theres no escaping it. Women approach and think of a man differently than they do a woman, this is natural. I think it was just a lack of elaboration and slightly poor choice of words.

I see and totally agree.

rgambs

i think that the ideal situation morally would be for a man to only notice sexuality in a woman when she has given some indication of permission for him to do so. example: my 28 year old very beautiful wife (luckiest man ever!!) does not want to be looked at sexually by any men over the ager of 60 or so because, frankly, thats just gross. Similarly, it is not appreciated when younger men make comments while she is trying to examine their eyes in a professional setting. Unfortunately ideals are just that, and in the real world...men be horny.
The good guys suppress it as much as they can!

Gern Blansten

mickeyrat said:

hedonist said:

mickeyrat said:

I'll say this for the Op subject, this little douchebag and the subsequent discussions related to mysogyny has made me think how I view the other half of our species.

Sadly it takes conscious effort to see women as human beings first. Suppose that personal awareness is one good thing to come from this. Damn shame it took that to get me thinking.

mickey...it takes conscious effort by whom? How so?

Most of the good guys I know haven't had to struggle to see me (or women in general) as a human being; they grew up and were raised that way, led by example by both men and women. Some got it after having daughters of their own. Sons of their own.

That said, the more I see and hear of this little fuck, the more I wonder how much was brought on by society/upbringing, or by his nature. Maybe both?

I cant rightly speak for anyone but myself, but I have noticed how i intially see women. Tend to be respectful in direct contact. But I cannot deny the fact of lower base self and the internal reaction that comes from it. Any man who says otherwise is fucking liar.

I get your point...I don't disagree....we're animals first and being male this stuff we have called testosterone can really fuck with the mind

callen

rgambs said:

i think that the ideal situation morally would be for a man to only notice sexuality in a woman when she has given some indication of permission for him to do so. example: my 28 year old very beautiful wife (luckiest man ever!!) does not want to be looked at sexually by any men over the ager of 60 or so because, frankly, thats just gross. Similarly, it is not appreciated when younger men make comments while she is trying to examine their eyes in a professional setting. Unfortunately ideals are just that, and in the real world...men be horny.
The good guys suppress it as much as they can!

Rather than "suppress" I'd like to think it's more control and understanding importance of showing respect to fellow human.

hedonist

Umm, fellas? Just for the record - women (we're animals too!) can and do have hormones firing like a 50' Roman as well. We're not these innocent swooning creatures. And that draw can be towards other women too.

Like men, sometimes we give in to it and other times discipline takes over - thought/fantasy vs action.

So we're not all that different.

Just had to clarify

Thirty Bills Unpaid

hedonist said:

Umm, fellas? Just for the record - women (we're animals too!) can and do have hormones firing like a 50' Roman as well. We're not these innocent swooning creatures. And that draw can be towards other women too.

Like men, sometimes we give in to it and other times discipline takes over - thought/fantasy vs action.

So we're not all that different.

Just had to clarify

And here I thought it was just us... pshew!

hedonist

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

And here I thought it was just us... pshew!

>-

mickeyrat

hedonist said:

Umm, fellas? Just for the record - women (we're animals too!) can and do have hormones firing like a 50' Roman as well. We're not these innocent swooning creatures. And that draw can be towards other women too.

Like men, sometimes we give in to it and other times discipline takes over - thought/fantasy vs action.

So we're not all that different.

Just had to clarify

however true that is its still different. do women take the rejection to the extremes that OP subject did?

I think at its root, as natural as it is, couple the desire with inflated ego and then add rejection, doesnt that equation beget mysogyny?

Humans have every right to decide who they spend their time with. Goes without saying. So I'm not saying its lies with anyone but the mysogynist.

this has all gotten my looking within. Has taken quite aback by what I am seeing in myself . thank you for getting the jist of the initial post. The others too.

PJ_Soul

mickeyrat said:

hedonist said:

Umm, fellas? Just for the record - women (we're animals too!) can and do have hormones firing like a 50' Roman as well. We're not these innocent swooning creatures. And that draw can be towards other women too.

Like men, sometimes we give in to it and other times discipline takes over - thought/fantasy vs action.

So we're not all that different.

Just had to clarify

however true that is its still different. do women take the rejection to the extremes that OP subject did?

I think at its root, as natural as it is, couple the desire with inflated ego and then add rejection, doesnt that equation beget mysogyny?

Humans have every right to decide who they spend their time with. Goes without saying.

this has all gotten my looking within. and thank you for getting the jist of the initial post. The others too.

That's an interesting point.... Generally, women do not commit mass shootings (skin head wives in wal-mart in Vegas excluded obviously :-S ).

hedonist

It IS an interesting point, though I think most men don't take rejection to that level either. It's that ego mickey mentioned, along with other ingredients, to make such a mess of the mind and soul.

mickeyrat

hedonist said:

It IS an interesting point, though I think most men don't take rejection to that level either. It's that ego mickey mentioned, along with other ingredients, to make such a mess of the mind and soul.

well in OP subject case his first victims were roommates. Full asian roommates while he was mixed asian/whatever. So I think its multi level rejection. Much of it perceived too.