I'm the first one that will say that I will shoot someone for breaking into my house. I don't know what their intent is and I won't give them the chance to show me. I am pro gun and pro self-defense.
That said if I shot someone and they were no longer a threat I would call 911 and start CPR until an ambulance got there.
when I took my carry conceal class, the instructor didn't come right out and say it, but subtly hinted that it's better to shoot and kill than to shoot and wound because people can,have, and will sue you for getting injured in your home. i'm pretty sure but not positive that not rendering aid to someone you just shot is the wisest thing to do because if any of your actions (cpr or ar) cause more damage, you could be sued for bodily harm or something like that.
most of those suits lose or get thrown out, but just having to get a lawyer and deal with all the legal bull shit sucks and is expensive.
That's fucked up but don't think that's why you shoot to kill. Unsung?
when I took my carry conceal class, the instructor didn't come right out and say it, but subtly hinted that it's better to shoot and kill than to shoot and wound because people can,have, and will sue you for getting injured in your home. i'm pretty sure but not positive that not rendering aid to someone you just shot is the wisest thing to do because if any of your actions (cpr or ar) cause more damage, you could be sued for bodily harm or something like that.
most of those suits lose or get thrown out, but just having to get a lawyer and deal with all the legal bull shit sucks and is expensive.
... That is true... but, it does not stop their family from suing you for wrongful death. That is why you really need to condition yourself to already be prepared to face all of the possible consequences of pulling the trigger, including the real fact that you may have to face losing your freedom in a court room. The gun should not be the first line of defense. It is basically, the nuclear option and demands a hell of a lot of consideration beforehand.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I fully support his right to defend his property with whatever force will stop the threat.
Once the threat has been eliminated/incapacitated he should have called 911. But he didn't.
Whoa. We agree. After the first shot was fired on the young man, the threat was neutralized and police should've been called. That's exactly what the focus of this trial is.
If you follow the entire trial, there have been lots of details released. Just a really creepy situation.
The county attorney in my county is prosecuting this one (Little Falls is 2-3 hours away from the Twin Cities), so I hope to get the full details after. Expected to finish early next week.
1998-06-30 Minneapolis
2003-06-16 St. Paul
2006-06-26 St. Paul
2007-08-05 Chicago
2009-08-23 Chicago
2009-08-28 San Francisco
2010-05-01 NOLA (Jazz Fest)
2011-07-02 EV Minneapolis
2011-09-03 PJ20
2011-09-04 PJ20
2011-09-17 Winnipeg
2012-06-26 Amsterdam
2012-06-27 Amsterdam
2013-07-19 Wrigley
2013-11-21 San Diego
2013-11-23 Los Angeles
2013-11-24 Los Angeles
2014-07-08 Leeds, UK
2014-07-11 Milton Keynes, UK
2014-10-09 Lincoln
2014-10-19 St. Paul
2014-10-20 Milwaukee
2016-08-20 Wrigley 1
2016-08-22 Wrigley 2 2018-06-18 London 1 2018-08-18 Wrigley 1 2018-08-20 Wrigley 2 2022-09-16 Nashville 2023-08-31 St. Paul 2023-09-02 St. Paul 2023-09-05 Chicago 1 2024-08-31 Wrigley 2 2024-09-15 Fenway 1 2024-09-27 Ohana 1 2024-09-29 Ohana 2
when I took my carry conceal class, the instructor didn't come right out and say it, but subtly hinted that it's better to shoot and kill than to shoot and wound because people can,have, and will sue you for getting injured in your home. i'm pretty sure but not positive that not rendering aid to someone you just shot is the wisest thing to do because if any of your actions (cpr or ar) cause more damage, you could be sued for bodily harm or something like that.
most of those suits lose or get thrown out, but just having to get a lawyer and deal with all the legal bull shit sucks and is expensive.
That's fucked up but don't think that's why you shoot to kill. Unsung?
Your shot should be a well placed center mass, which generally is the area of the heart.
In the heat of things and with the adrenaline pumping it isn't the easiest thing to do.
But yes, you don't shoot someone with intent to injure.
when I took my carry conceal class, the instructor didn't come right out and say it, but subtly hinted that it's better to shoot and kill than to shoot and wound because people can,have, and will sue you for getting injured in your home. i'm pretty sure but not positive that not rendering aid to someone you just shot is the wisest thing to do because if any of your actions (cpr or ar) cause more damage, you could be sued for bodily harm or something like that.
most of those suits lose or get thrown out, but just having to get a lawyer and deal with all the legal bull shit sucks and is expensive.
... That is true... but, it does not stop their family from suing you for wrongful death. That is why you really need to condition yourself to already be prepared to face all of the possible consequences of pulling the trigger, including the real fact that you may have to face losing your freedom in a court room. The gun should not be the first line of defense. It is basically, the nuclear option and demands a hell of a lot of consideration beforehand.
His locked doors and windows were his first line of defence, Cosmo. I don't have a problem with him using his weapon against people who had broken into the sanctity of his house. I have a problem with him using his weapon after his intruders had been subdued- in particular... the young girl.
He may have felt that he was still in danger with the male. Being older and weaker than the young man who may have looked like he still had some fight left in him. The girl, on the other hand, deserved better than what she got. She likely could have been scared out of the house with a showing of the weapon upon coming down the stairs before he shot her the first time. The second time he shot her was not so much for fear as it was for anger and frustration. Incredulously, he had a third opportunity to be merciful, but he seemed determined to put an end to the incident.
As bad a decision that breaking into the home was, I am still puzzled why the girl came down the stairs? Clearly time had elapsed (the body of the male was dragged away). Clearly something had gone very badly. Why was she so brazen to confront what she likely knew she was to find?
My friend in once heard someone entering his house. He had a .357 magnum and swung around the corner and yelled for the person to freeze ... turns out it was a drunk person in town to visit his neighbor and drunkenly entered the wrong house. He said it he was very close to pulling the trigger and he had to down a half bottle of whiskey to calm his nerves to comprehend what almost could have happened.
Shooting for the kill is not always the best strategy unless you make positive ID on the threat.
Wow, I just cant get over the fact that this guy said to the authorities that he thought the girl laughed at him so he shot her again. He really just wants to go to jail I think. It really does sound like something out of a movie. This guy is mentally unbalanced... and used to work security jobs in our government ahaha
A sound home defense strategy is a shotgun with the first round being rock salt. If a perpertrater doesn't get the message after the first round, then go Dirty Harry on them.
It can prevent a horrible mistake and still offer fine home protection.
Some of my questions have been answered with the following dialogue introduced in court (from audio clips taken from the house):
“Nick,” said the voice before another gunshot is fired and Kifer is heard tumbling down the stairs.
“Oh, sorry about that,” Smith says.
“Oh my God!” the teen screams.
“You’re dying,” Smith tells her as more gunfire erupts. “B---h.”
The sound of another body getting dragged can be heard in the crystal-clear audio clip before Smith speaks to his victim again.
“B---h,” he says, before firing another round.
This is disturbing news and not as complicated as I had initially thought. While I typically feel very little for hardened criminals who reap what they sow... I am saddened by the cold, callous actions of this man who needed to demonstrate even the most remote level of decency for two kids who, in reality, were more mischievous than criminally inclined.
In all aspects of life, the adults are typically the ones that demonstrate patience and understanding for our youth sector given we have the benefit of experience to draw from- treatment all adults have had the benefit of enjoying as youths. We anticipate kids making mistakes and we help them grow from these mistakes. There was no opportunity for these kids to learn from this though: in their foolishness, they crossed paths with a man very prepared for them.
While I can still understand Smith shooting the young man. I cannot understand shooting the young girl- especially degrading her, gloating over his accomplishment, and then 'finishing her off'.
A sound home defense strategy is a shotgun with the first round being rock salt. If a perpertrater doesn't get the message after the first round, then go Dirty Harry on them. It can prevent a horrible mistake and still offer fine home protection.
... Late one night, My neighbor scared off someone who was crouched down between his apartment and the landlord's parked car. All it took was the sound of a shotgun shell being chambered and him yelling, "Get the hell otut of here you mother fucker!!" ... The next day, we found out he the neighbor down the street had came home an caught a teenager with this teenaged daughter in her bedroom. The kid jumped out of the window with his pants in his hand and it was probably him (the kid) hiding in the dark next to that parked car, trying to put his pants back on. ... Moral of the story: Yeah, the distinct, **CLICK-CHUCK** sound of arming a 12 guage Remington is enough to scare the living shit out of most anyone. We all know that sound and we alll know not to fuck with it.
Post edited by Cosmo on
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Some of my questions have been answered with the following dialogue introduced in court (from audio clips taken from the house):
“Nick,” said the voice before another gunshot is fired and Kifer is heard tumbling down the stairs.
“Oh, sorry about that,” Smith says.
“Oh my God!” the teen screams.
“You’re dying,” Smith tells her as more gunfire erupts. “B---h.”
The sound of another body getting dragged can be heard in the crystal-clear audio clip before Smith speaks to his victim again.
“B---h,” he says, before firing another round.
This is disturbing news and not as complicated as I had initially thought. While I typically feel very little for hardened criminals who reap what they sow... I am saddened by the cold, callous actions of this man who needed to demonstrate even the most remote level of decency for two kids who, in reality, were more mischievous than criminally inclined.
In all aspects of life, the adults are typically the ones that demonstrate patience and understanding for our youth sector given we have the benefit of experience to draw from- treatment all adults have had the benefit of enjoying as youths. We anticipate kids making mistakes and we help them grow from these mistakes. There was no opportunity for these kids to learn from this though: in their foolishness, they crossed paths with a man very prepared for them.
While I can still understand Smith shooting the young man. I cannot understand shooting the young girl- especially degrading her, gloating over his accomplishment, and then 'finishing her off'.
... That was the main issue for me.. NOT that he had shot 2 intruders in his home... something I support. It was his cold-blooded execution of them.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
i don't hunt, but isn't what this man did basically the same thing deer hunters do? scout and find a spot where deer are known to appear, then just sit and wait? i don't at all condone what these kids did, but this man wasn't protecting himself, he was hunting.
dead men tell no tales, if he had not killed them it would be their word aginst his and they could have made up some bullshit about being in the wrong house or what ever, this way his story is legit as the evidence, feared for his life during another break in.........
i don't hunt, but isn't what this man did basically the same thing deer hunters do? scout and find a spot where deer are known to appear, then just sit and wait? i don't at all condone what these kids did, but this man wasn't protecting himself, he was hunting.
hunting in his own house ? after mulitpul break in's ? you'd have hard time proving that in court.
dead men tell no tales, if he had not killed them it would be their word aginst his and they could have made up some bullshit about being in the wrong house or what ever, this way his story is legit as the evidence, feared for his life during another break in.........
Godfather.
His story as is might be more damning.
In my eye he's innocent for what he did to the young man, but he's guilty for allowing his bloodlust to get the better of him when he dealt with the young woman.
His audio tapes tell a story that is far worse than any the two could have made up if afforded life.
Smith dragged Kifer's body into the workshop and laid it on top of Brady's, Wartner said. Smith told investigators he thought he heard Kifer gasping, so he placed his revolver under her chin and fired what he told police was a "good clean finishing shot to the head," the assistant prosecutor said.
Take me piece by piece..... Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
i don't hunt, but isn't what this man did basically the same thing deer hunters do? scout and find a spot where deer are known to appear, then just sit and wait? i don't at all condone what these kids did, but this man wasn't protecting himself, he was hunting.
hunting in his own house ? after mulitpul break in's ? you'd have hard time proving that in court.
Godfather.
I agree. Although I get the deer stand analogy, this guy wasn't exactly 'lying in wait' inside his own home considering he had been reduced to wearing a sidearm and fearing another break in for some time prior to that evening.
I believe the guy was fearful for another break in, prepared for one, and encountered one. I saw pictures of his home and it was isolated- not offering the piece of mind that having good neighbours sometimes brings.
We shouldn't discount the type of stress that likely played with the guy's mind. I would think the emotions generated when forced to deal with the previous break ins, the mounting tension as he braced for another, and the stress of the moment placed this guy in a mindset that is hard to define or understand from our sofas.
Don't get me wrong, he clearly needed to check himself before murdering the young woman. I'm just saying the old guy was pushed into a corner and we don't like how he responded. Maybe he shouldn't have been pushed there?
The kids did breaking and entering. He murdered two people after they were no longer a threat.
Let him spend 50 years in prison for the murders, less 4 years for the breaking and entering crimes against him.
The kids were 'stopped' at breaking and entering. I'm not saying I believe they had murder in their minds, but I can recall multiple home invasions that have not gone very well for the homeowner. Smith likely could recall many of these same ones as he braced for whatever came down the stairs at him. It must have been extremely frightening having people break into your home and advance towards you not knowing exactly what they had in mind.
At the risk of repeating myself, as sad as it might be, I can understand his actions towards the young man: he was weaker and unwilling to take any additional risks- especially knowing there was another person in the house. With the young man out of the equation and the girl shot, injured, and incapacitated... this is where things fell down dramatically. He became callous and acted without a shred of decency- what seems to be enthusiastically murdering her. It's really tough to defend him at this part of the incident.
At the risk of repeating myself, as sad as it might be, I can understand his actions towards the young man: he was weaker and unwilling to take any additional risks- especially knowing there was another person in the house. With the young man out of the equation and the girl shot, injured, and incapacitated... this is where things fell down dramatically. He became callous and acted without a shred of decency- what seems to be enthusiastically murdering her. It's really tough to defend him at this part of the incident.
A truly horrible story.
Still see it as two counts of murder. He shot the guy twice to the point where he was incapacitated, lying on the ground, and doing nothing but gasping for air. There's your self-defense.
The third shot and a proclamation to himself of "I want him dead". There's your murder.
And the girl's death was played out nearly the same except furthered execution style.
At the risk of repeating myself, as sad as it might be, I can understand his actions towards the young man: he was weaker and unwilling to take any additional risks- especially knowing there was another person in the house. With the young man out of the equation and the girl shot, injured, and incapacitated... this is where things fell down dramatically. He became callous and acted without a shred of decency- what seems to be enthusiastically murdering her. It's really tough to defend him at this part of the incident.
A truly horrible story.
Still see it as two counts of murder. He shot the guy twice to the point where he was incapacitated, lying on the ground, and doing nothing but gasping for air. There's your self-defense.
The third shot and a proclamation to himself of "I want him dead". There's your murder.
And the girl's death was played out nearly the same except furthered execution style.
The young man was shot three times and killed- to which Smith said aloud, "You're dead" (according to the audio tapes). As much as this might have been a simple proclamation of the reality... or the voice of triumph... this could have been the self talk of a man navigating his way through a defensive plan of action. Brady may very well have been incapacitated from our perspective, but mired in the moment and knowing there was still another intruder somewhere in his house, I would be inclined to afford Smith the benefit of the doubt on the first killing.
Are we expecting that Smith should simply have left Brady shot and injured to deal with the other intruder? If so, was it remotely possible that Brady could have regained his strength enough to become a renewed threat? His guns were low powered weapons (.22 calibre revolver) that do not inflict the damage of higher powered guns.
Are we expecting that Smith had tied Brady up before dealing with the second intruder? If so, was it remotely possible that by tending to such a task, the second intruder could gain the upper hand and render his tendering of mercy a foolish mistake?
The girl was executed in callous fashion and despite the fact she was participating in a home invasion. You will not get an argument from me that Smith was way out of bounds after his first shot. In an earlier post, I had suggested that warning the girl likely would have had her running from the place- meaning she didn't have to get shot even once; however, I wasn't there in the moment and I speak from the safety of my couch without adrenaline and fear running through my body.
Of course, any semblance of decency departed Smith when he dealt with Kifer. It is at this point in the tragedy where you will not get an argument from me regarding his conduct.
If he had gone out an bought a large dog or picked one up at the pound, we wouldn't be commenting on this story.
Peace.
If the kids hadn't broken into his home we wouldn't be talking about it either.
True enough.
Peace.
Hey, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to defend this guy as much as I am trying to discuss the incident. To me, this is a case of an incident spiralling out of control where Smith began acting well within his rights as a victim, until crossing a line and becoming a criminal. Exactly where and when he did that is a big part of what this thread is about.
Comments
That is true... but, it does not stop their family from suing you for wrongful death.
That is why you really need to condition yourself to already be prepared to face all of the possible consequences of pulling the trigger, including the real fact that you may have to face losing your freedom in a court room. The gun should not be the first line of defense. It is basically, the nuclear option and demands a hell of a lot of consideration beforehand.
Hail, Hail!!!
If you follow the entire trial, there have been lots of details released. Just a really creepy situation.
The county attorney in my county is prosecuting this one (Little Falls is 2-3 hours away from the Twin Cities), so I hope to get the full details after. Expected to finish early next week.
2003-06-16 St. Paul
2006-06-26 St. Paul
2007-08-05 Chicago
2009-08-23 Chicago
2009-08-28 San Francisco
2010-05-01 NOLA (Jazz Fest)
2011-07-02 EV Minneapolis
2011-09-03 PJ20
2011-09-04 PJ20
2011-09-17 Winnipeg
2012-06-26 Amsterdam
2012-06-27 Amsterdam
2013-07-19 Wrigley
2013-11-21 San Diego
2013-11-23 Los Angeles
2013-11-24 Los Angeles
2014-07-08 Leeds, UK
2014-07-11 Milton Keynes, UK
2014-10-09 Lincoln
2014-10-19 St. Paul
2014-10-20 Milwaukee
2016-08-20 Wrigley 1
2016-08-22 Wrigley 2
2018-06-18 London 1
2018-08-18 Wrigley 1
2018-08-20 Wrigley 2
2022-09-16 Nashville
2023-08-31 St. Paul
2023-09-02 St. Paul
2023-09-05 Chicago 1
2024-08-31 Wrigley 2
2024-09-15 Fenway 1
2024-09-27 Ohana 1
2024-09-29 Ohana 2
Your shot should be a well placed center mass, which generally is the area of the heart.
In the heat of things and with the adrenaline pumping it isn't the easiest thing to do.
But yes, you don't shoot someone with intent to injure.
He may have felt that he was still in danger with the male. Being older and weaker than the young man who may have looked like he still had some fight left in him. The girl, on the other hand, deserved better than what she got. She likely could have been scared out of the house with a showing of the weapon upon coming down the stairs before he shot her the first time. The second time he shot her was not so much for fear as it was for anger and frustration. Incredulously, he had a third opportunity to be merciful, but he seemed determined to put an end to the incident.
As bad a decision that breaking into the home was, I am still puzzled why the girl came down the stairs? Clearly time had elapsed (the body of the male was dragged away). Clearly something had gone very badly. Why was she so brazen to confront what she likely knew she was to find?
Shooting for the kill is not always the best strategy unless you make positive ID on the threat.
It can prevent a horrible mistake and still offer fine home protection.
“Nick,” said the voice before another gunshot is fired and Kifer is heard tumbling down the stairs.
“Oh, sorry about that,” Smith says.
“Oh my God!” the teen screams.
“You’re dying,” Smith tells her as more gunfire erupts. “B---h.”
The sound of another body getting dragged can be heard in the crystal-clear audio clip before Smith speaks to his victim again.
“B---h,” he says, before firing another round.
This is disturbing news and not as complicated as I had initially thought. While I typically feel very little for hardened criminals who reap what they sow... I am saddened by the cold, callous actions of this man who needed to demonstrate even the most remote level of decency for two kids who, in reality, were more mischievous than criminally inclined.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/jury-listens-chilling-audio-minnesota-man-fatally-shooting-teen-intruders-article-1.1765846
In all aspects of life, the adults are typically the ones that demonstrate patience and understanding for our youth sector given we have the benefit of experience to draw from- treatment all adults have had the benefit of enjoying as youths. We anticipate kids making mistakes and we help them grow from these mistakes. There was no opportunity for these kids to learn from this though: in their foolishness, they crossed paths with a man very prepared for them.
While I can still understand Smith shooting the young man. I cannot understand shooting the young girl- especially degrading her, gloating over his accomplishment, and then 'finishing her off'.
"Sorry about that"? Makes my stomach turn.
Late one night, My neighbor scared off someone who was crouched down between his apartment and the landlord's parked car. All it took was the sound of a shotgun shell being chambered and him yelling, "Get the hell otut of here you mother fucker!!"
...
The next day, we found out he the neighbor down the street had came home an caught a teenager with this teenaged daughter in her bedroom. The kid jumped out of the window with his pants in his hand and it was probably him (the kid) hiding in the dark next to that parked car, trying to put his pants back on.
...
Moral of the story: Yeah, the distinct, **CLICK-CHUCK** sound of arming a 12 guage Remington is enough to scare the living shit out of most anyone. We all know that sound and we alll know not to fuck with it.
Hail, Hail!!!
That was the main issue for me.. NOT that he had shot 2 intruders in his home... something I support. It was his cold-blooded execution of them.
Hail, Hail!!!
Godfather.
Godfather.
In my eye he's innocent for what he did to the young man, but he's guilty for allowing his bloodlust to get the better of him when he dealt with the young woman.
His audio tapes tell a story that is far worse than any the two could have made up if afforded life.
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
I believe the guy was fearful for another break in, prepared for one, and encountered one. I saw pictures of his home and it was isolated- not offering the piece of mind that having good neighbours sometimes brings.
We shouldn't discount the type of stress that likely played with the guy's mind. I would think the emotions generated when forced to deal with the previous break ins, the mounting tension as he braced for another, and the stress of the moment placed this guy in a mindset that is hard to define or understand from our sofas.
Don't get me wrong, he clearly needed to check himself before murdering the young woman. I'm just saying the old guy was pushed into a corner and we don't like how he responded. Maybe he shouldn't have been pushed there?
Let him spend 50 years in prison for the murders, less 4 years for the breaking and entering crimes against him.
At the risk of repeating myself, as sad as it might be, I can understand his actions towards the young man: he was weaker and unwilling to take any additional risks- especially knowing there was another person in the house. With the young man out of the equation and the girl shot, injured, and incapacitated... this is where things fell down dramatically. He became callous and acted without a shred of decency- what seems to be enthusiastically murdering her. It's really tough to defend him at this part of the incident.
A truly horrible story.
Peace.
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
The third shot and a proclamation to himself of "I want him dead". There's your murder.
And the girl's death was played out nearly the same except furthered execution style.
Peace.
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
Are we expecting that Smith should simply have left Brady shot and injured to deal with the other intruder? If so, was it remotely possible that Brady could have regained his strength enough to become a renewed threat? His guns were low powered weapons (.22 calibre revolver) that do not inflict the damage of higher powered guns.
Are we expecting that Smith had tied Brady up before dealing with the second intruder? If so, was it remotely possible that by tending to such a task, the second intruder could gain the upper hand and render his tendering of mercy a foolish mistake?
The girl was executed in callous fashion and despite the fact she was participating in a home invasion. You will not get an argument from me that Smith was way out of bounds after his first shot. In an earlier post, I had suggested that warning the girl likely would have had her running from the place- meaning she didn't have to get shot even once; however, I wasn't there in the moment and I speak from the safety of my couch without adrenaline and fear running through my body.
Of course, any semblance of decency departed Smith when he dealt with Kifer. It is at this point in the tragedy where you will not get an argument from me regarding his conduct.
And peace to you!