Confront, Combat and Defeat Anti-Semitism in Every Form

VivaPalestina

brianlux said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

and just to add to my prior post, that relationship with that aussie did not work out. but she did open my eyes to the situation over there. before i met her, i sided with israel, because i was ignorant, and like a good american patriot i thought the way they wanted me to. thanks to her for opening my eyes to this injustice. i learned a lot about life being involved with someone from a different country. i recommend everybody try it at least once.

For sure, gimme, whether that involvement be a girl friend, boy friend or any good friend. Having friends from other countries has help me get a different perspective on my own country and a broader sense of the world we all share.

As for supporting Palestine or Israel- the first time I paid much attention to that situation was when Bob Dylan came out with his "Infidels" record. I figured a) it's Bob so it must be good, b) he is (or at least was?) very passionate about his feeling toward Israel and c) I didn't have much other information to go on. I also had a friend who was passionately pro- Israel so I figured that was the way to go. Over the years I've become more inclined to feel neutral about this conflict because there have been injustices on both sides. My basic feeling is that this is another form of endless war, that neither side will ever compromise (not that I necessarily support compromising). It's a terrible situation that has had little hope for peace. I hope I'm wrong about that..

I have never heard of infidels, but I do know these lines by bob....

How does it feel / To be without a home / Like a complete unknown

brianlux

VivaPalestina said:

brianlux said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

and just to add to my prior post, that relationship with that aussie did not work out. but she did open my eyes to the situation over there. before i met her, i sided with israel, because i was ignorant, and like a good american patriot i thought the way they wanted me to. thanks to her for opening my eyes to this injustice. i learned a lot about life being involved with someone from a different country. i recommend everybody try it at least once.

For sure, gimme, whether that involvement be a girl friend, boy friend or any good friend. Having friends from other countries has help me get a different perspective on my own country and a broader sense of the world we all share.

As for supporting Palestine or Israel- the first time I paid much attention to that situation was when Bob Dylan came out with his "Infidels" record. I figured a) it's Bob so it must be good, b) he is (or at least was?) very passionate about his feeling toward Israel and c) I didn't have much other information to go on. I also had a friend who was passionately pro- Israel so I figured that was the way to go. Over the years I've become more inclined to feel neutral about this conflict because there have been injustices on both sides. My basic feeling is that this is another form of endless war, that neither side will ever compromise (not that I necessarily support compromising). It's a terrible situation that has had little hope for peace. I hope I'm wrong about that..

I have never heard of infidels, but I do know these lines by bob....

How does it feel / To be without a home / Like a complete unknown

The central song on Dylan's "Infidels" was "Neighborhood Bully" (see lyrics below). That song was a defense for Israel against the thrashing Israel was getting from the press at the time. I'm not sure Bob would feel the same way today but then what does it matter? We should all form our own opinions.

From what I've read, I'm guessing you're right Gimme, it sounds like much of the injustice going on is provoked by Israel. At the same time, when looking at the history of that country, I wonder how much of it is an ingrained reaction to many years of oppression. But perhaps the pendulum has swung too far again.

By the way, regardless of the religious/political content, "Infidels" is an excellent album- how can you go wrong with this line up?:


Bob Dylan – guitar, harmonica, keyboards, vocals, production
Alan Clark – keyboards
Sly Dunbar – drums, percussion
Clydie King – vocals on "Union Sundown"
Mark Knopfler – guitar, production
Robbie Shakespeare – bass guitar
Mick Taylor – guitar



Well, the neighborhood bully, he’s just one man
His enemies say he’s on their land
They got him outnumbered about a million to one
He got no place to escape to, no place to run
He’s the neighborhood bully

The neighborhood bully just lives to survive
He’s criticized and condemned for being alive
He’s not supposed to fight back, he’s supposed to have thick skin
He’s supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in
He’s the neighborhood bully

The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land
He’s wandered the earth an exiled man
Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn
He’s always on trial for just being born
He’s the neighborhood bully

Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized
Old women condemned him, said he should apologize.
Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad
The bombs were meant for him. He was supposed to feel bad
He’s the neighborhood bully

Well, the chances are against it and the odds are slim
That he’ll live by the rules that the world makes for him
’Cause there’s a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac
He’s the neighborhood bully

He got no allies to really speak of
What he gets he must pay for, he don’t get it out of love
He buys obsolete weapons and he won’t be denied
But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side
He’s the neighborhood bully

Well, he’s surrounded by pacifists who all want peace
They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease
Now, they wouldn’t hurt a fly. To hurt one they would weep
They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep
He’s the neighborhood bully

Every empire that’s enslaved him is gone
Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon
He’s made a garden of paradise in the desert sand
In bed with nobody, under no one’s command
He’s the neighborhood bully

Now his holiest books have been trampled upon
No contract he signed was worth what it was written on
He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth
Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health
He’s the neighborhood bully

What’s anybody indebted to him for?
Nothin’, they say. He just likes to cause war
Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed
They wait for this bully like a dog waits to feed
He’s the neighborhood bully

What has he done to wear so many scars?
Does he change the course of rivers? Does he pollute the moon and stars?
Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill
Running out the clock, time standing still
Neighborhood bully

VivaPalestina

brianlux said:

VivaPalestina said:

brianlux said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

and just to add to my prior post, that relationship with that aussie did not work out. but she did open my eyes to the situation over there. before i met her, i sided with israel, because i was ignorant, and like a good american patriot i thought the way they wanted me to. thanks to her for opening my eyes to this injustice. i learned a lot about life being involved with someone from a different country. i recommend everybody try it at least once.

For sure, gimme, whether that involvement be a girl friend, boy friend or any good friend. Having friends from other countries has help me get a different perspective on my own country and a broader sense of the world we all share.

As for supporting Palestine or Israel- the first time I paid much attention to that situation was when Bob Dylan came out with his "Infidels" record. I figured a) it's Bob so it must be good, b) he is (or at least was?) very passionate about his feeling toward Israel and c) I didn't have much other information to go on. I also had a friend who was passionately pro- Israel so I figured that was the way to go. Over the years I've become more inclined to feel neutral about this conflict because there have been injustices on both sides. My basic feeling is that this is another form of endless war, that neither side will ever compromise (not that I necessarily support compromising). It's a terrible situation that has had little hope for peace. I hope I'm wrong about that..

I have never heard of infidels, but I do know these lines by bob....

How does it feel / To be without a home / Like a complete unknown

The central song on Dylan's "Infidels" was "Neighborhood Bully" (see lyrics below). That song was a defense for Israel against the thrashing Israel was getting from the press at the time. I'm not sure Bob would feel the same way today but then what does it matter? We should all form our own opinions.

From what I've read, I'm guessing you're right Gimme, it sounds like much of the injustice going on is provoked by Israel. At the same time, when looking at the history of that country, I wonder how much of it is an ingrained reaction to many years of oppression. But perhaps the pendulum has swung too far again.

By the way, regardless of the religious/political content, "Infidels" is an excellent album- how can you go wrong with this line up?:


Bob Dylan – guitar, harmonica, keyboards, vocals, production
Alan Clark – keyboards
Sly Dunbar – drums, percussion
Clydie King – vocals on "Union Sundown"
Mark Knopfler – guitar, production
Robbie Shakespeare – bass guitar
Mick Taylor – guitar



Well, the neighborhood bully, he’s just one man
His enemies say he’s on their land
They got him outnumbered about a million to one
He got no place to escape to, no place to run
He’s the neighborhood bully

The neighborhood bully just lives to survive
He’s criticized and condemned for being alive
He’s not supposed to fight back, he’s supposed to have thick skin
He’s supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in
He’s the neighborhood bully

The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land
He’s wandered the earth an exiled man
Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn
He’s always on trial for just being born
He’s the neighborhood bully

Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized
Old women condemned him, said he should apologize.
Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad
The bombs were meant for him. He was supposed to feel bad
He’s the neighborhood bully

Well, the chances are against it and the odds are slim
That he’ll live by the rules that the world makes for him
’Cause there’s a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac
He’s the neighborhood bully

He got no allies to really speak of
What he gets he must pay for, he don’t get it out of love
He buys obsolete weapons and he won’t be denied
But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side
He’s the neighborhood bully

Well, he’s surrounded by pacifists who all want peace
They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease
Now, they wouldn’t hurt a fly. To hurt one they would weep
They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep
He’s the neighborhood bully

Every empire that’s enslaved him is gone
Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon
He’s made a garden of paradise in the desert sand
In bed with nobody, under no one’s command
He’s the neighborhood bully

Now his holiest books have been trampled upon
No contract he signed was worth what it was written on
He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth
Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health
He’s the neighborhood bully

What’s anybody indebted to him for?
Nothin’, they say. He just likes to cause war
Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed
They wait for this bully like a dog waits to feed
He’s the neighborhood bully

What has he done to wear so many scars?
Does he change the course of rivers? Does he pollute the moon and stars?
Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill
Running out the clock, time standing still
Neighborhood bully

It seems like the lyrical version of Krauthammer's letter. Its the classic hasbara argument. Even for artistic merit, I am going to have to pass on anything Bob for me. Bob Dylan, Soundgarden, pixies, etc. don't know and for them it maybe easy for them to not want to know. I can not respect that. I want them to come to the other side of the wall, to walk in the rubble of demolished homes, to pick out the toys and pieces of homework left behind by children who are now landless and robbed of any similitude of a normal life. Maybe they can visit the young boy not far from a relative's house who was paralyzed because he was shot with the more "humane" rubber bullet. No bob, not the "neighborhood bully." Why would anyone think that.

brianlux

VivaPalestina said:

It seems like the lyrical version of Krauthammer's letter. Its the classic hasbara argument. Even for artistic merit, I am going to have to pass on anything Bob for me. Bob Dylan, Soundgarden, pixies, etc. don't know and for them it maybe easy for them to not want to know. I can not respect that. I want them to come to the other side of the wall, to walk in the rubble of demolished homes, to pick out the toys and pieces of homework left behind by children who are now landless and robbed of any similitude of a normal life. Maybe they can visit the young boy not far from a relative's house who was paralyzed because he was shot with the more "humane" rubber bullet. No bob, not the "neighborhood bully." Why would anyone think that.

A few things worth remembering-
- Dylan wrote those words 31 years ago.
-and this: "Here's the thing with me and the religious thing. This is the flat-out truth: I find the religiosity and philosophy in the music. I don't find it anywhere else...I don't adhere to rabbis, preachers, evangelists, all of that. I've learned more from the songs than I've learned from any of this kind of entity." (Gates, David, October 6, 1997. "Dylan Revisited". Newsweek.)

And of course the idea that we should make up our own minds and not let big name personalities make them up for us. I'm not taking sides with Israel here, I'm just pointing out that this picture is bigger when put into historical perspective.

War, religious fanaticism, nationalism, greed, earth abuse. It's all part of the same fucked up human condition.

mattsl1983

The whole situation just starting from 1948 is almost impossible to pick one side and say they are right. Both sides have been through and put each other through hell, neither one with clean hands. It's a paradox, if you truly support one side, you are ignoring the actions they have done. An example would be Israel should give back the West Band. The reply is if the Arab nations didn't fully mobilize their collective military on the boarder for a preemptive strike the 6 day war wouldn't have happened. Ect ect.

gimmesometruth27

mattsl1983 said:

The whole situation just starting from 1948 is almost impossible to pick one side and say they are right. Both sides have been through and put each other through hell, neither one with clean hands. It's a paradox, if you truly support one side, you are ignoring the actions they have done. An example would be Israel should give back the West Band. The reply is if the Arab nations didn't fully mobilize their collective military on the boarder for a preemptive strike the 6 day war wouldn't have happened. Ect ect.

the rules or war dictate that you should give back the land you aquire when the war is over. when will israel do this? they keep stealing more and more land. they are the aggressors in this situation. the militants who support the palestinian cause are reacting to that, not initially acting. israel is breaking international law. the blame lies with them. end of story. if you can not see that, then you have no clear grasp of the situation.

gimmesometruth27

in addition, israel has the greatest air force in the region, and possibly the world. they have nukes. the palestinians have none of that. nobody else in the region has any wmds on the scale that israel has, except for pakistan. israel is bullying because they have the best defenses and they have the us in their corner. if the us refuses to allow what israel is doing to the palestinians then the israelis lose their power. we are propping israel up and supporting what they are doing, until we stop supporting israel nothing will change.

mattsl1983

The Arab nations refused to recognize Israel and called for its destruction. Before the Six Day war Egypt kicked all UN peacekeepers out of their country. Israel did what they felt was right to protect their country. I can't fault them. Lots of boarders changed after after WWII so the argument of the rules of war is not very strong. I have decided a long time ago I personally support neither side. So simply, anything you bring up in favor of Israel or Palestine won't persuade me. Again, looking at the situation without a horse in the race, I look at the situation as it is. I can make a strong argument for both sides.

gimmesometruth27

israel is breaking international law by expanding settlements and stealing land. the UN has voted to condemn them multiple times and the united states uses its permanent veto power at the UN to veto those resolutions. the palestinians are trying to be recognized as their own state at the UN because israel and the united states will not budge in their positions. israel is wholly responsible for the situation we have right now and the untied states is complicit.

mattsl1983

"Wholly responsible" You see that is the reason the Middle East will never have peace. Your biased judgment has rendered you blinders so you can't even acknowledge the faults of the side you take. It's pointless to try and have a conversation with someone that refuses to see the other sides perspective. I wish you well.

VivaPalestina

brianlux said:

VivaPalestina said:

It seems like the lyrical version of Krauthammer's letter. Its the classic hasbara argument. Even for artistic merit, I am going to have to pass on anything Bob for me. Bob Dylan, Soundgarden, pixies, etc. don't know and for them it maybe easy for them to not want to know. I can not respect that. I want them to come to the other side of the wall, to walk in the rubble of demolished homes, to pick out the toys and pieces of homework left behind by children who are now landless and robbed of any similitude of a normal life. Maybe they can visit the young boy not far from a relative's house who was paralyzed because he was shot with the more "humane" rubber bullet. No bob, not the "neighborhood bully." Why would anyone think that.

A few things worth remembering-
- Dylan wrote those words 31 years ago.
-and this: "Here's the thing with me and the religious thing. This is the flat-out truth: I find the religiosity and philosophy in the music. I don't find it anywhere else...I don't adhere to rabbis, preachers, evangelists, all of that. I've learned more from the songs than I've learned from any of this kind of entity." (Gates, David, October 6, 1997. "Dylan Revisited". Newsweek.)

And of course the idea that we should make up our own minds and not let big name personalities make them up for us. I'm not taking sides with Israel here, I'm just pointing out that this picture is bigger when put into historical perspective.

War, religious fanaticism, nationalism, greed, earth abuse. It's all part of the same fucked up human condition.

I see what you are saying. But for me, I don't think I can disconnect the connection that I felt which made me become a fan in the first place, the words and music, there is something that is coming out there and hitting me and I want to know what this person or these people who have made me feel any emotion, happiness, anger, relief, anything, communicating that very human condition which can be so ugly with truth and beauty, have to say. I want to relate and understand and connect, and share what is good, so I am going to listen and want to hear. Which is not far from the Dylan quote, I think? I agree that they should not make up our minds for us, but what they say and do is important because of that connection. I also agree there is a bigger picture and some of us were born more political than others, but our singular parts in the human collective have meaning and can resonate or maybe more appropriately reverberate. Culture and arts are a part of society, and artists' expressions and participation in non-violent forms of resistance, such as boycott, have made waves in the movements to free South Africa of apartheid and in the civil rights movement in the US.

gimmesometruth27

mattsl1983 said:

"Wholly responsible" You see that is the reason the Middle East will never have peace. Your biased judgment has rendered you blinders so you can't even acknowledge the faults of the side you take. It's pointless to try and have a conversation with someone that refuses to see the other sides perspective. I wish you well.

you can not be objective in this situation.

the israeli government is breaking international law. point blank, plain and simple. if you disagree with that fact i would like you to explain why you do not view it that way when most of the UN member states have repeatedly voted on resolutions to condemn israel's action relating to the palestinian conflict. the settlements are in direct violation of international law.

how about i move onto your front yard and gradually start taking more and more of your property and we will see how long it takes you to start retaliating against me. then you will know what the palestinians are going through right now. if you can not see why i say israel is the whole problem in this situation then you are not paying attention. the palestinian offenses against israel are in retaliation for israel stealing their land and expanding settlements.

mattsl1983

"Gimme" You ignore anything stated that goes against what you believe . Of course, you are right. Anyone that doesn't believe in the same thing as you are completely wrong. I've seen your other posts in this forum and you are obviously a strong opinionated person. Which will ultimately make you right.. Key word is opinionated...

know1

So all Jews are Israelis? And there are people that hate all Jews because of some land dispute?

gimmesometruth27

mattsl1983 said:

"Gimme" You ignore anything stated that goes against what you believe . Of course, you are right. Anyone that doesn't believe in the same thing as you are completely wrong. I've seen your other posts in this forum and you are obviously a strong opinionated person. Which will ultimately make you right.. Key word is opinionated...

you have not been paying attention to what i post on here. if you actually pay attention, i have done over a thousand posts on here where i have posted articles backing me up. so my opinions are validated. i am looking at the cause and effect, the action and the reaction.. you aren't. you are not looking at the big picture. you are not seeing that the united states allows israel to keep stealing land and expanding settlements. the united states gives over $3 billion in military aid to israel each year. you can fact check me if you want to.

to say that both sides are equally responsible would be like blaming black south africans for apartheid. by blaming the palestinians, you are essentially saying that.

gimmesometruth27

and to add, how long would it take you to violently act against me if i moved on to your front yard and started bullding a settlement there or worse, bulldoze your home and burn your olive grove? i can do that, because i have a powerful friend that allows me to do so...

Bentleyspop

Time for another bump

Byrnzie

How about Confronting, combating, and defeating racism in every form? Including Israeli racism towards Palestinians and other Arabs?

grooveme

I am not anti-Semitic in any way, but I do not feel that that means I have to support every policy or action of Israel or support them no matter what, or risk being labelled anti-Semitic.

As an analogy, I am Indian by heritage, but I abhor the current Indian government support/enforcement of anti homosexual legislation ( a leftover from the Colonial era). This does not mean that I hate or look down on Indians.

know1

gimmesometruth27 said:

and to add, how long would it take you to violently act against me if i moved on to your front yard and started bullding a settlement there or worse, bulldoze your home and burn your olive grove? i can do that, because i have a powerful friend that allows me to do so...

Never. Acting violently is wrong.