Bad Union Contracts will kill the unions
Godfather.
Posts: 12,504
I am a union officer and I can tell you that this story is pretty much spot on,the union's need to re-think their contracts or they may loose them all together.
Godfather.
Defending workers’ rights is a noble mission. But sometimes labor unions take it too far. Here are some of our favorite examples of labor union contracts “gone wild.”
1) Three strikes and you’re still not out.
Believe it or not, an overly generous clause slipped into the teacher Master Agreement in 1997, basically states that Bay City School Teachers (Michigan) can be caught drunk at work up to five times before they get sacked.
In Florida, a teacher who showed up to class plastered and then started “dirty dancing” with her students may end up teaching again, thanks to her union’s excellent negotiating skills.
Bay City School teachers (again in Michigan) managed to negotiate a union contract where they could be caught in possession of, or under the influence of, drugs three times before they lost their job.
2). No shows at work
Dozens of Miami-Dade County employees often don’t bother to show up for work, and instead, opt to spend their time working as union reps, on the taxpayers’ dime. County Commissioner Esteban Bovo told Florida Watchdog this is costing taxpayers anywhere from $12 million to $24 million annually.
Click for more from Watchdog.org
Godfather.
Defending workers’ rights is a noble mission. But sometimes labor unions take it too far. Here are some of our favorite examples of labor union contracts “gone wild.”
1) Three strikes and you’re still not out.
Believe it or not, an overly generous clause slipped into the teacher Master Agreement in 1997, basically states that Bay City School Teachers (Michigan) can be caught drunk at work up to five times before they get sacked.
In Florida, a teacher who showed up to class plastered and then started “dirty dancing” with her students may end up teaching again, thanks to her union’s excellent negotiating skills.
Bay City School teachers (again in Michigan) managed to negotiate a union contract where they could be caught in possession of, or under the influence of, drugs three times before they lost their job.
2). No shows at work
Dozens of Miami-Dade County employees often don’t bother to show up for work, and instead, opt to spend their time working as union reps, on the taxpayers’ dime. County Commissioner Esteban Bovo told Florida Watchdog this is costing taxpayers anywhere from $12 million to $24 million annually.
Click for more from Watchdog.org
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Personally I am in a union, and was a supporter of unions and even stated that in a thread on here. But I was recently passed over for a better job with better pay by someone who only has 3 years seniority, who has been in constant trouble since being hired, he got the job because his mommy is a friend of the stupidvisor, but there a clause that was put into the contract that allowed this to happen, but apparently no clause exist that protects the deserving workers and punishes the trouble makers. I have talked to people at other unions and have been told that these are issues at there places as well. I have 18 years, never been in trouble once, spotless record, hardly ever off sick and do everything by the book, so being a stand up worker who does his job well whether you have a union or not doesn't pay dividends anymore. My union has allowed the employer to put so many clauses in the contract that allow for favouritism, so it now makes me wonder what favours the union executive have gotten in return.
End of long rant ... I am now firmly in support of right to work laws.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Unions are wrought with problems: in short... they lower the bar by not recognizing strong efforts and supporting weaker efforts. This doesn't exactly motivate the bottom end of the unionized work force and can result in uninspired efforts by harder working employees.
Without them though... yikes.
The only reason private companies pay reasonably close to union wages is because union wages set the standard. Don't think for a second that capitalism unchecked would be advantageous to the common man that comprises over 99% of the population.
What your saying is probably true, nonetheless I got burned big time, I believe within a few years Ontario will be a right to work province and when the union comes to ask me to sign a paper asking for me to pay union they'll be told to "kiss my ass".
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
so you're part of the auto workers union ? I believe we are part of the same union I am with the machinest union
"international areospace machinest" and believe me I know about the back door deals that are made in fact I have been shafted in about the same way you have and that's why I ran for an officers position.
I talk to management here and the complaints are always the same "your union protects the lazy and usless" our company has tried several times to fire trouble makers and lazy asses but got blocked by some bullshit in our contract, if the unions don't stop the with take take take and take responsibality for their people we will loose the companys that sign union contracts,Ive seen it happen before in the operating engineers when I was crane oiler/operator, it only takes a company to say we are no longer singing a union contract and one year from this day of contract nagosiations we will be non union,they will pay the workers agreed upon monies and rehire or hire new workers at less money (usally just a little more than the other non union shops in an effort to keep the good hands.
Godfather.
No I'm not in the auto workers, I was commenting on the fact we've lost so many auto jobs partly because of their contracts.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
The only thing they do now is rush companies to move jobs where there aren't unions.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
that's because the unions have been asking for and getting stupid shit in their contracts and if they don't wise up and give a little back they will loose the battle,it's just a matter of time and for some it may be too late.
Godfather.
You mean to sweat shops in 3rd world countries. Correct?
If the government slapped import tariffs and taxed the hell out of product moving into the US that prevented this 'end run' (that your favourite presidential candidate in the last election practices by the way)... companies would be forced to do their business in the homeland, offer respectable working conditions, and still turn a handsome profit.
What do you think would happen if some nutbar declared, "No unions. It's now business left unchecked!"?
Meaning: no regulations with regards to the treatment of employees and business practices and the environment.
I predict blood in the streets.
I know it is Wikipedia, but it says that 11% of the jobs in the U.S. are union jobs. I don't see the blood in the street for the other 89% of workers.
A little melodramatic for sure, but I offer the following to chew on:
Wiki says, The US Census declared that in 2010 15.1% of the general population lived in poverty. Obviously these people do not have union jobs.
Further, it is fair to suggest that many jobs in the private industry have jobs in unionized industry. These similar jobs have similar wages set by the bar established through the work of unions. With no standard, I would assert that the wages and working conditions for both jobs would fall.
The scenario I painted alluded to stripping down worker's rights and standards for protecting the environment. In such a scenario where people and the planet are left to the good will of companies, exploitation of both would result. In other countries, where this has occurred, we have witnessed massive mobilization and resistance. It's not completely far fetched to think protests are out of the realm of possibilities given aggressive reforms in support of capitalism unchecked.
I agree that some unions hurt the rest of us by making unreasonable demands. I am lucky to be in a union that doesn't do that - we spend our efforts just protecting what rights we already have and hopelessly trying to chase inflation rates with our salary rates (and so far are failing at that) rather than trying to demand more and more. But yes, so unions do this, usually as a bargaining tactic - they mistakenly believe that highballing with their offers will result in something close to what they actually want. But what that tactic actually does is piss off the other party at the table, create tension in bargaining, and piss off the general public. I fully support unions and want people to fight like hell to keep them, but sometimes the people at the head of these unions very simply have a BAD ATTITUDE. That is NOT helpful.
I'm not so sure getting rid of teacher's unions is a wise thing... but developing systems of accountability within the unions would be a great thing.
No teacher should just punch a clock or abuse their position. Kids are too important. Likewise, there's a witch hunt anytime a teacher is even accused of doing something (or nothing)- regardless of their individual credibility. Good teachers are too important as well and poor test scores are not always an indication of poor teaching.
Honestly speaking though (from a teacher's perspective)... many of the problems we experience today could be thwarted at the point of entry (hiring practices). If we properly motivated people to get into the profession and had the luxury of choice for whom we choose to get in front of kids... not all... but many of the crappy things we have witnessed and are currently experiencing in the last decade or two would not happen. The potential teaching candidate pool is diminishing as we speak:
There is little doubt that the pool of future "qualified" applicants will shrink significantly because of this change unless the federal and state governments step-in with incentives to encourage high school graduates who previously shunned teaching as a career due to the cost of four to six years of college and graduate school tuitions and the prospect of low career earnings.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marc-f-be ... 77506.html
It's too easy to point fingers at problems when, in reality, we are all tacitly to blame. We are unwilling to fund a system to the level it demands, yet we still hope, and in some cases demand, that the system serves us in the capacity it might under ideal circumstances.
Are you a parent? Do you have experience as a parent dealing with teachers, school boards and unions? Well, I do. And I speak from lots of experience. DO YOU?
Wait, don't answer that, because I have foed you. I personally don't care what you think.
Thirty Bills, good post, I agree with much of what you said. Merry Merry.
My dad is a principal and my mom is a teacher. I am a union member in a university. Is that enough experience?
Was I seriously just told to not respond?? WTF?
Figures. :roll:
Umm...pretty sure you were told not to respond. Let's show some respect here and follow board etiquette.
I love the internet sometimes.
Yeah. In order to stay away from nasty people who like to get personal with name-calling? I won't play their games.
For the record, I didn't say that I thought teachers are underpaid in ALL states (but I think they are underappreciated in North America generally, yes. That is obviously a general statement - I don't expect people to appreciate shitty teachers - I am obviously aware that there are bad teachers just like there are bad everything elses- not only do my parents, especially my dad, know the better than most, but also because I have had bad teachers (and great teachers), and know teachers who are bad (and wonderful)... But actually that is totally besides the point). I'm not even American btw - why would I know what the exact teachers salaries are in every single state? I'm talking mainly about Canada because that's where I live, but also have an idea of the average salaries of teachers in the US, and yes, they are generally way underpaid considering what their responsibilities actually are, their class sizes, the competition for positions, and the ever increasing amount of education people need to become teachers. And with salaries that are more in line with that, the better teachers would generally be, because the competition would get even tougher.
Anyway, back to the main topic: some union leaders need to get a grip and better understanding of how to effectively bargain. Because yes, a minority of unions give unions in general bad name (a good example of that is something backseatlover said: people are under the impression that all unions ensure that no one can be fired even though they do poor work... that is actually the exception, not the rule, yet that exception has painted unions with a very bad brush).
Here it is: :wtf:
Folks... I'm not sure what just happened there, but yikes. I think there was much agreement in this page, but you cannot really tell in the context from which agreement was established.
Nothing like a good 10C MT spat to get people worked up.
PJ Soul, Backseat Lover, and Bootlegger... I sincerely wish you a nice XMas. I've had my differences in opinion with all of you at one point or another, but it was a difference in opinion only. You are all great people.
Be safe.
Cheers!
But yeah, I love everyone around here, even if we do disagree! No hard feelings on my part folks - I love the debate!!
Merry Christmas!
I think 99% of us all would get along fine in person. The internet just gives us a forum to debate and so we do that. It isn't all that surprising or probably is natural.
I just found it f'n hilarious that people are telling people not to post or reply.
Merry Merry to you as well!
It doesn't matter anyway if she replies; she is foed, so I don't have to view anything she writes. That feature is nice, when needed.
Cheers everyone!
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon