How Chris McCandless Died

ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
edited December 2013 in A Moving Train
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/b ... -died.html

How Chris McCandless Died
Posted by Jon Krakauer
September 12, 2013


mccandless-580.jpeg

Twenty-one years ago this month, on September 6, 1992, the decomposed body of Christopher McCandless was discovered by moose hunters just outside the northern boundary of Denali National Park. He had died inside a rusting bus that served as a makeshift shelter for trappers, dog mushers, and other backcountry visitors. Taped to the door was a note scrawled on a page torn from a novel by Nikolai Gogol:

ATTENTION POSSIBLE VISITORS.
S.O.S.
I NEED YOUR HELP. I AM INJURED, NEAR DEATH, AND TOO WEAK TO HIKE OUT OF HERE. I AM ALL ALONE, THIS IS NO JOKE. IN THE NAME OF GOD, PLEASE REMAIN TO SAVE ME. I AM OUT COLLECTING BERRIES CLOSE BY AND SHALL RETURN THIS EVENING. THANK YOU,
CHRIS McCANDLESS
AUGUST ?

From a cryptic diary found among his possessions, it appeared that McCandless had been dead for nineteen days. A driver’s license issued eight months before he perished indicated that he was twenty-four years old and weighed a hundred and forty pounds. After his body was flown out of the wilderness, an autopsy determined that it weighed sixty-seven pounds and lacked discernible subcutaneous fat. The probable cause of death, according to the coroner’s report, was starvation.

In “Into the Wild,” the book I wrote about McCandless’s brief, confounding life, I came to a different conclusion. I speculated that he had inadvertently poisoned himself by eating seeds from a plant commonly called wild potato, known to botanists as Hedysarum alpinum. According to my hypothesis, a toxic alkaloid in the seeds weakened McCandless to such a degree that it became impossible for him to hike out to the highway or hunt effectively, leading to starvation. Because Hedysarum alpinum is described as a nontoxic species in both the scientific literature and in popular books about edible plants, my conjecture was met with no small amount of derision, especially in Alaska.

I’ve received thousands of letters from people who admire McCandless for his rejection of conformity and materialism in order to discover what was authentic and what was not, to test himself, to experience the raw throb of life without a safety net. But I’ve also received plenty of mail from people who think he was an idiot who came to grief because he was arrogant, woefully unprepared, mentally unbalanced, and possibly suicidal. Most of these detractors believe my book glorifies a senseless death. As the columnist Craig Medred wrote in the Anchorage Daily News in 2007,

“Into the Wild” is a misrepresentation, a sham, a fraud. There, I’ve finally said what somebody has needed to say for a long time …. Krakauer took a poor misfortunate prone to paranoia, someone who left a note talking about his desire to kill the “false being within,” someone who managed to starve to death in a deserted bus not far off the George Parks Highway, and made the guy into a celebrity. Why the author did that should be obvious. He wanted to write a story that would sell.

The debate over why McCandless perished, and the related question of whether he is worthy of admiration, has been smoldering, and occasionally flaring, for more than two decades now. But last December, a writer named Ronald Hamilton posted a paper on the Internet that brings fascinating new facts to the discussion. Hamilton, it turns out, has discovered hitherto unknown evidence that appears to close the book on the cause of McCandless’s death.

To appreciate the brilliance of Hamilton’s investigative work, some backstory is helpful. The diary and photographs recovered with McCandless’s body indicated that, beginning on June 24, 1992, the roots of the Hedysarum alpinum plant became a staple of his daily diet. On July 14th, he started harvesting and eating Hedysarum alpinum seeds as well. One of his photos depicts a one-gallon Ziploc bag stuffed with these seeds. When I visited the bus in July, 1993, wild-potato plants were growing everywhere I looked in the surrounding taiga. I filled a one-gallon bag with more than a pound of seeds in less than thirty minutes.

On July 30th, McCandless wrote in his journal, “EXTREMELY WEAK. FAULT OF POT[ATO] SEED. MUCH TROUBLE JUST TO STAND UP. STARVING. GREAT JEOPARDY.” Before this entry, there was nothing in the journal to suggest that he was in dire straits, although his photos show he’d grown alarmingly gaunt. After subsisting for three months on a marginal diet of squirrels, porcupines, small birds, mushrooms, roots, and berries, he’d run up a huge caloric deficit and was teetering on the brink. By adding potato seeds to the menu, he apparently made the mistake that took him down. After July 30th, his physical condition went to hell, and three weeks later he was dead.

When McCandless’s body was found in the Alaskan bush, Outside magazine asked me to write about the puzzling circumstances of his demise. Working on a tight deadline, I researched and wrote an eighty-four-hundred-word piece, published in January, 1993. Because the wild potato was universally believed to be safe to eat, in this article I speculated that McCandless had mistakenly consumed the seeds of the wild sweet pea, Hedysarum mackenzii—a plant thought to be toxic, and which is hard to distinguish from Hedysarum alpinum. I attributed his death to this blunder.

As I began expanding my article into a book and had more time to ponder the evidence, however, it struck me as extremely unlikely that he’d failed to tell the two species apart. He wrote his diary on blank pages in the back of an exhaustively researched field guide to the region’s edible plants, “Tanaina Plantlore / Dena’ina K’et’una: An Ethnobotany of the Dena’ina Indians of Southcentral Alaska,” by Priscilla Russell Kari. In the book, Kari explicitly warns that because wild sweet pea closely resembles wild potato, and “is reported to be poisonous, care should be taken to identify them accurately before attempting to use the wild potato as food.” And then she explains precisely how to distinguish the two plants from one another.

It seemed more plausible that McCandless had indeed eaten the roots and seeds of the purportedly nontoxic wild potato rather than the wild sweet pea. So I sent some Hedysarum alpinum seeds I’d collected near the bus to Dr. Thomas Clausen, a professor in the biochemistry department at the University of Alaska Fairbanks, for analysis.

Shortly before my book was published, Clausen and one of his graduate students, Edward Treadwell, conducted a preliminary test that indicated the seeds contained an unidentified alkaloid. Making a rash intuitive leap, in the first edition of “Into the Wild,” published in January, 1996, I wrote that this alkaloid was perhaps swainsonine, a toxic agent known to inhibit glycoprotein metabolism in animals, leading to starvation. When Clausen and Treadwell completed their analysis of wild-potato seeds, though, they found no trace of swainsonine or any other alkaloids. “I tore that plant apart,” Dr. Clausen explained to Men’s Journal in 2007, after also testing the seeds for non-alkaloid compounds. “There were no toxins. No alkaloids. I’d eat it myself.”

I was perplexed. Clausen was an esteemed organic chemist, and the results of his analysis seemed irrefutable. But McCandless’s July 30th journal entry couldn’t have been more explicit: “EXTREMELY WEAK. FAULT OF POT[ATO] SEED.” His certainty about the cause of his failing health gnawed at me. I began sifting through the scientific literature, searching for information that would allow me to reconcile McCandless’s adamantly unambiguous statement with Clausen’s equally unambiguous test results.

Fast forward to a couple of months ago, when I stumbled upon Ronald Hamilton’s paper “The Silent Fire: ODAP and the Death of Christopher McCandless,” which Hamilton had posted on a Web site that publishes essays and papers about McCandless. Hamilton’s essay offered persuasive new evidence that the wild-potato plant is highly toxic in and of itself, contrary to the assurances of Thomas Clausen and every other expert who has ever weighed in on the subject. The toxic agent in Hedysarum alpinum turns out not to be an alkaloid but, rather, an amino acid, and according to Hamilton it was the chief cause of McCandless’s death. His theory validates my conviction that McCandless wasn’t as clueless and incompetent as his detractors have made him out to be.

Hamilton is neither a botanist nor a chemist; he’s a writer who until recently worked as a bookbinder at the Indiana University of Pennsylvania library. As Hamilton explains it, he became acquainted with the McCandless story in 2002, when he happened upon a copy of “Into the Wild,” flipped through its pages, and suddenly thought to himself, I know why this guy died. His hunch derived from his knowledge of Vapniarca, a little-known Second World War concentration camp in what was then German-occupied Ukraine.

“I first learned about Vapniarca through a book whose title I’ve long forgotten,” Hamilton told me. “Only the barest account of Vapniarca appeared in one of its chapters …. But after reading ‘Into the Wild,’ I was able to track down a manuscript about Vapniarca that has been published online.” Later, in Romania, he located the son of a man who served as an administrative official at the camp, who sent Hamilton a trove of documents.

In 1942, as a macabre experiment, an officer at Vapniarca started feeding the Jewish inmates bread made from seeds of the grass pea, Lathyrus sativus, a common legume that has been known since the time of Hippocrates to be toxic. “Very quickly,” Hamilton writes in “The Silent Fire,”

a Jewish doctor and inmate at the camp, Dr. Arthur Kessler, understood what this implied, particularly when within months, hundreds of the young male inmates of the camp began limping, and had begun to use sticks as crutches to propel themselves about. In some cases inmates had been rapidly reduced to crawling on their backsides to make their ways through the compound …. Once the inmates had ingested enough of the culprit plant, it was as if a silent fire had been lit within their bodies. There was no turning back from this fire—once kindled, it would burn until the person who had eaten the grasspea would ultimately be crippled …. The more they’d eaten, the worse the consequences—but in any case, once the effects had begun, there was simply no way to reverse them …. The disease is called, simply, neurolathyrism, or more commonly, “lathyrism.”…

Kessler, who … initially recognized the sinister experiment that had been undertaken at Vapniarca, was one of those who escaped death during those terrible times. He retired to Israel once the war had ended and there established a clinic to care for, study, and attempt to treat the numerous victims of lathyrism from Vapniarca, many of whom had also relocated in Israel.


It’s been estimated that, in the twentieth century, more than a hundred thousand people worldwide were permanently paralyzed from eating grass pea. The injurious substance in the plant turned out to be a neurotoxin, beta-N-oxalyl-L-alpha-beta diaminoproprionic acid, a compound commonly referred to as beta-ODAP or, more often, just ODAP. Curiously, Hamilton reports, ODAP

affects different people, different sexes, and even different age groups in different ways. It even affects people within those age groups differently …. The one constant about ODAP poisoning, however, very simply put, is this: those who will be hit the hardest are always young men between the ages of 15 and 25 and who are essentially starving or ingesting very limited calories, who have been engaged in heavy physical activity, and who suffer trace-element shortages from meager, unvaried diets.

ODAP was identified in 1964. It brings about paralysis by over-stimulating nerve receptors, causing them to die. As Hamilton explains,

It isn’t clear why, but the most vulnerable neurons to this catastrophic breakdown are the ones that regulate leg movement…. And when sufficient neurons die, paralysis sets in…. [The condition] never gets better; it always gets worse. The signals get weaker and weaker until they simply cease altogether. The victim experiences “much trouble just to stand up.” Many become rapidly too weak to walk. The only thing left for them to do at that point is to crawl….

After Hamilton read “Into the Wild” and became convinced that ODAP was responsible for McCandless’s sad end, he approached Dr. Jonathan Southard, the assistant chair of the chemistry department at Indiana University of Pennsylvania, and persuaded Southard to have one of his students, Wendy Gruber, test the seeds of both Hedysarum alpinum and Hedysarum mackenzii for ODAP. Upon completion of her tests, in 2004, Gruber determined that ODAP appeared to be present in both species of Hedysarum, but her results were less than conclusive. “To be able to say that ODAP is definitely present in the seeds,” she reported, “we would need to use another dimension of analysis, probably by H.P.L.C.-M.S.”—high-pressure liquid chromatography. But Gruber possessed neither the expertise nor the resources to analyze the seeds with H.P.L.C., so Hamilton’s hypothesis remained unproven.

To establish once and for all whether Hedysarum alpinum is toxic, last month I sent a hundred and fifty grams of freshly collected wild-potato seeds to Avomeen Analytical Services, in Ann Arbor, Michigan, for H.P.L.C. analysis. Dr. Craig Larner, the chemist who conducted the test, determined that the seeds contained .394 per cent beta-ODAP by weight, a concentration well within the levels known to cause lathyrism in humans.

According to Dr. Fernand Lambein, a Belgian scientist who coördinates the Cassava Cyanide Diseases and Neurolathyrism Network, occasional consumption of foodstuffs containing ODAP “as one component of an otherwise balanced diet, bears not any risk of toxicity.” Lambein and other experts warn, however, that individuals suffering from malnutrition, stress, and acute hunger are especially sensitive to ODAP, and are thus highly susceptible to the incapacitating effects of lathyrism after ingesting the neurotoxin.

Considering that potentially crippling levels of ODAP are found in wild-potato seeds, and given the symptoms McCandless described and attributed to the wild-potato seeds he ate, there is ample reason to believe that McCandless contracted lathyrism from eating those seeds. As Ronald Hamilton observed, McCandless exactly matched the profile of those most susceptible to ODAP poisoning:

He was a young, thin man in his early 20s, experiencing an extremely meager diet; who was hunting, hiking, climbing, leading life at its physical extremes, and who had begun to eat massive amounts of seeds containing a toxic [amino acid]. A toxin that targets persons exhibiting and experiencing precisely those characteristics and conditions ….

It might be said that Christopher McCandless did indeed starve to death in the Alaskan wild, but this only because he’d been poisoned, and the poison had rendered him too weak to move about, to hunt or forage, and, toward the end, “extremely weak,” “too weak to walk out,” and, having “much trouble just to stand up.” He wasn’t truly starving in the most technical sense of that condition. He’d simply become slowly paralyzed. And it wasn’t arrogance that had killed him, it was ignorance. Also, it was ignorance which must be forgiven, for the facts underlying his death were to remain unrecognized to all, scientists and lay people alike, literally for decades.

Hamilton’s discovery that McCandless perished because he ate toxic seeds is unlikely to persuade many Alaskans to regard McCandless in a more sympathetic light, but it may prevent other backcountry foragers from accidentally poisoning themselves. Had McCandless’s guidebook to edible plants warned that Hedysarum alpinum seeds contain a neurotoxin that can cause paralysis, he probably would have walked out of the wild in late August with no more difficulty than when he walked into the wild in April, and would still be alive today. If that were the case, Chris McCandless would now be forty-five years old.
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Comments

  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Just been reading a few related articles on McCandless and noted that a certain Alaskan reporter named Craig Medred has been making something of a name for himself by denigrating and insulting the memory of McCandless. Apparently, one of his notions is that McCandless's decision to change his name to Alexander Supertramp is evidence of schizophrenia. http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/c ... ears-later

    I just typed this response in a related article by Pete Mason, in which he counters Craig Medred's vitriol:

    http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/f ... -gone-wild
    'Chris McCandless wasn't the first person to change his name. Many of the Worlds most famous writers and performers did the same. I imagine the reason has something to do with what Allen Ginsberg said about the writing of his poem 'Howl' He imagined that nobody would ever see this poem, and that knowledge granted him the freedom to write down whatever he liked - what was truest to him. People change their names because it provides them an identity behind which they can freely express themselves - a sort of buffer to self-consciousness. Does Craig Medred regard Samuel Clemons (aka Mark Twain) as a schizophrenic? Was Eric Blair (aka George Orwell) schizophrenic? What about David Jones (David Bowie), or Paul Hewson (Bono)?
    Chris McCandless sought total freedom. Freedom from his past - one element of which was a family history that he felt had been tainted by lies, and deceit. And one factor in his remolding of himself and his life, in his pursuit of true freedom, was the erasing of his past. Creating a clean slate. Changing his name was just one small part of that quest.'
  • Byrnzie wrote:
    Just been reading a few related articles on McCandless and noted that a certain Alaskan reporter named Craig Medred has been making something of a name for himself by denigrating and insulting the memory of McCandless. Apparently, one of his notions is that McCandless's decision to change his name to Alexander Supertramp is evidence of schizophrenia. http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/c ... ears-later

    I just typed this response in a related article by Pete Mason, in which he counters Craig Medred's vitriol:

    http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/f ... -gone-wild
    'Chris McCandless wasn't the first person to change his name. Many of the Worlds most famous writers and performers did the same. I imagine the reason has something to do with what Allen Ginsberg said about the writing of his poem 'Howl' He imagined that nobody would ever see this poem, and that knowledge granted him the freedom to write down whatever he liked - what was truest to him. People change their names because it provides them an identity behind which they can freely express themselves - a sort of buffer to self-consciousness. Does Craig Medred regard Samuel Clemons (aka Mark Twain) as a schizophrenic? Was Eric Blair (aka George Orwell) schizophrenic? What about David Jones (David Bowie), or Paul Hewson (Bono)?
    Chris McCandless sought total freedom. Freedom from his past - one element of which was a family history that he felt had been tainted by lies, and deceit. And one factor in his remolding of himself and his life, in his pursuit of true freedom, was the erasing of his past. Creating a clean slate. Changing his name was just one small part of that quest.'

    :lol:

    Byrnzie...

    A great response. You are all over the place (Alaska dispatch????).

    I read the first post in this thread and found it interesting. Krakauer should cut himself some slack- piecing together the last days of Chris's life cannot be done without error. I like Krakauer: his books Into Thin Air and Into the Wild and Where Men Win Glory were excellent. He researches well and he writes well.

    I'm not sure what to make of Chris McCandless. It was his life to live and he certainly lived it, but part of me thinks that taking a few precautions and with a little more planning... he might be alive today telling his story to people inside his home while drinking red wine. His desperate last scribblings reflected the fact that he was kind of wishing to go back in time and do things a little differently.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    I'm not sure what to make of Chris McCandless. It was his life to live and he certainly lived it, but part of me thinks that taking a few precautions and with a little more planning... he might be alive today telling his story to people inside his home while drinking red wine. His desperate last scribblings reflected the fact that he was kind of wishing to go back in time and do things a little differently.

    Well, he very nearly made it out alive. Seems that he ate some berries that were unknown to have debilitating effects.
    He was basically unlucky. But he still managed 113 days in the wilderness before the berries crippled him. No small feat.
  • Byrnzie wrote:
    I'm not sure what to make of Chris McCandless. It was his life to live and he certainly lived it, but part of me thinks that taking a few precautions and with a little more planning... he might be alive today telling his story to people inside his home while drinking red wine. His desperate last scribblings reflected the fact that he was kind of wishing to go back in time and do things a little differently.

    Well, he very nearly made it out alive. Seems that he ate some berries that were unknown to have debilitating effects.
    He was basically unlucky. But he still managed 113 days in the wilderness before the berries crippled him. No small feat.

    Agreed.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,051
    Fascinating. I sure hope those field guides have been or are being edited- likely so, I would think.

    I've never been of the opinion that McCandless was crazy or what he did was crazy or foolish. I could see doing something like that- going off into the wilderness for an extended period of time. The thought's often crossed my mind whenever I've stepped into wilderness- maybe even most of those times. Even without actually doing so, I think it's healthy to at least imagine going into the wilderness to stay. That and being more in touch with one's animal nature, having a sense of being a mammal in the wild. More and more, with what wilderness there is left and the human population we currently carry, it's more difficult to experience wilderness outside of our imagination yet I also think you have to at least see it and experience it some to fully imagine it.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    I think he was an idiot for going into some of the harshest wilderness basically unprepared.

    I admire his sense of adventure but not his lack of planning.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    unsung wrote:
    I think he was an idiot for going into some of the harshest wilderness basically unprepared.

    I admire his sense of adventure but not his lack of planning.

    According to Krakeur he would have survived if he had known about the toxicity of that particular plant, and that at the time, nobody knew that plant was dangerous. So I don't really see how he can be labelled an idiot.
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    Iirc, the movie and book depicted an escape attempt after falling ill but he was stopped by the river being high. However 1/2 mile away there was a cable crossing that had he been prepared with a map or had a discussion with a ranger to let them know he was out there he may have survived. But no, he was stubborn and wanted to evade people. I can understand that, but then he should have known that he really was all alone. I don't believe he really knew how harsh Alaska could be.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    unsung wrote:
    Iirc, the movie and book depicted an escape attempt after falling ill but he was stopped by the river being high. However 1/2 mile away there was a cable crossing that had he been prepared with a map or had a discussion with a ranger to let them know he was out there he may have survived. But no, he was stubborn and wanted to evade people. I can understand that, but then he should have known that he really was all alone. I don't believe he really knew how harsh Alaska could be.

    True. I forgot about the cable crossing.
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    when you look at the world around us ... especially here in north america ... how can you NOT see him as anything but a hero!? ... so, he died ... why do we treat his death as his only legacy!?? ... yes, he could have been slightly better prepared but the reality is that he survived the harshest part of the alaskan winter wilderness just fine - his lack of foresight into spring floods is definitely a mistake but as an outdoors person - I can guarantee that everyone makes mistakes when they first set out into the wilderness and that no amount of books can truly prepare you for everything ...

    but beyond his death was a man who understood that our obsession with materialistic goods and false connections was a disease ... we live in a world of me and greed now and he railed against those principles ... the human connections he made are the kind of connections that matter most ...

    seriously, take a look at the world around us ... it's shameful ...
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    I agree with that, he definitely had good priorities in what life is supposed to be about. Imagine if he had been prepared though, he could have done a lot more good for the world if he would have survived.

    Like I said I admire him, but his mistake could have been so easily avoided and I believe his convictions also contributed to his death by clouding the reality of his situation. Alaska doesn't forgive.
  • Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 33,840
    I really really really don't get the infatuation with this guy.
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    unsung wrote:
    I agree with that, he definitely had good priorities in what life is supposed to be about. Imagine if he had been prepared though, he could have done a lot more good for the world if he would have survived.

    Like I said I admire him, but his mistake could have been so easily avoided and I believe his convictions also contributed to his death by clouding the reality of his situation. Alaska doesn't forgive.

    i'm sorry but friggin' steve irwin died doing what he loved ... you can't tell me he wasn't prepared ... it's nature and the wilderness ... and in light of the new evidence - it was just a series of unfortunate events that led to his death but with the primary one being that there was no mention of the toxic nature of the seeds he was eating for someone of his physiology at the time - it's hardly a brain fart ...

    and as far as doing a lot more if he was alive - i would argue that maybe not ... perhaps he would have written a book and inspired people but i would say the attention his story got worldwide was pretty impactful ... also, there are thousands of people like chris out there ... the only reason we know about chris is because he died ...
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    I really really really don't get the infatuation with this guy.

    do you ever have existential thoughts?
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    polaris_x wrote:
    unsung wrote:
    I agree with that, he definitely had good priorities in what life is supposed to be about. Imagine if he had been prepared though, he could have done a lot more good for the world if he would have survived.

    Like I said I admire him, but his mistake could have been so easily avoided and I believe his convictions also contributed to his death by clouding the reality of his situation. Alaska doesn't forgive.

    i'm sorry but friggin' steve irwin died doing what he loved ... you can't tell me he wasn't prepared ... it's nature and the wilderness ... and in light of the new evidence - it was just a series of unfortunate events that led to his death but with the primary one being that there was no mention of the toxic nature of the seeds he was eating for someone of his physiology at the time - it's hardly a brain fart ...

    and as far as doing a lot more if he was alive - i would argue that maybe not ... perhaps he would have written a book and inspired people but i would say the attention his story got worldwide was pretty impactful ... also, there are thousands of people like chris out there ... the only reason we know about chris is because he died ...


    I'm not speaking of the poisoning, I'm speaking about how he should have known multiple ways out if there were situations that forced him out. He didn't have that, he never checked in with a ranger, he wasn't appropriately supplied, he didn't have a map. He wasn't prepared. Sure he made it some time out there, but multiple mistakes cost him, not just eating some of the wrong plant.
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    unsung wrote:
    I'm not speaking of the poisoning, I'm speaking about how he should have known multiple ways out if there were situations that forced him out. He didn't have that, he never checked in with a ranger, he wasn't appropriately supplied, he didn't have a map. He wasn't prepared. Sure he made it some time out there, but multiple mistakes cost him, not just eating some of the wrong plant.

    i get that ... the point is tho - all those things did not kill him ... if he had not eaten the wrong plant - he would have walked out just fine without ever talking to the ranger, without the map, etc... all those things did was delay his departure which indirectly led him to eating the wrong plant ... at the end of the day - what killed him was the plant ...
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    And he made a conscious decision not to buy a map. Why? Maybe he saw it as a cop-out. I mean, he wasn't going on a routine camping trip. He was looking to get lost; to immerse himself in nature. A map would have tied him to the World he was walking away from.

    Then again, I do wonder whether he maybe wasn't completely dissimilar to Timothy Treadwell, the dude from the documentary 'Grizzly Man'. Underestimating the power, and the unforgiving nature, of....nature.
  • Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 33,840
    polaris_x wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    I really really really don't get the infatuation with this guy.

    do you ever have existential thoughts?

    Yes, I do. But those thoughts don't ever have anything to do with putting people who love me through a living hell. You don't like society, fine, do something about it, but don't torture people who love you and worry about you for years.

    While many people see him as an unmaterialistic savior, I see him as an selfish prick who only cared about himself.
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    Yes, I do. But those thoughts don't ever have anything to do with putting people who love me through a living hell. You don't like society, fine, do something about it, but don't torture people who love you and worry about you for years.

    While many people see him as an unmaterialistic savior, I see him as an selfish prick who only cared about himself.

    first of all - he did do something about it ... he eschewed it ... you may not like what he did but the fact is he did do something about it ... secondly, it was never his intent to put his family through what they went through ... if they can forgive him - surely, so can an outsider ... you telling me you've never made mistakes that potentially could have put your family through hell ...

    let me guess ... you see people who commit suicide as selfish people as well!? ... not that i want to take this discussion there ... but i'm not sure on what foundation you could possibly ascertain this ... he gave all his life savings to oxfam which in it of itself would denote a lack of selfishness ... i get it tho - you believe that his desire to separate temporarily from his family is selfish ... perhaps ... but if we are honest with ourselves - we all act selfishly ... i am pretty sure 90% of your decisions are made in your own self intersts ... the issue is whether or not that decision was made because he only cared for himself ... on that point i would disagree .... you don't make the human connections he made in such a short period of time by being a selfish prick ...

    listen ... i don't know you from pretty much everyone else on here ... you seem like a good guy and i mean you absolutely no disrespect when i say ... that you simply don't get christopher mccandles ... and not that i would claim to know him better than you or anyone else but as someone who spends a considerable time in nature and as my own version of an environmentalist and as someone who believes that our fundamental existence today as people is deeply flawed ... i relate to him in many ways ... i have chosen a different path than him but i can also say that i was not as brave as chris at his age nor at my age now ...

    lastly - you obviously have every right to your opinion and i don't mean to say it is wrong ... i'm only trying to perhaps give you a perspective from my understanding of chris ...
  • Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 33,840
    polaris_x wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    Yes, I do. But those thoughts don't ever have anything to do with putting people who love me through a living hell. You don't like society, fine, do something about it, but don't torture people who love you and worry about you for years.

    While many people see him as an unmaterialistic savior, I see him as an selfish prick who only cared about himself.

    first of all - he did do something about it ... he eschewed it ... you may not like what he did but the fact is he did do something about it ... secondly, it was never his intent to put his family through what they went through ... if they can forgive him - surely, so can an outsider ... you telling me you've never made mistakes that potentially could have put your family through hell ...

    let me guess ... you see people who commit suicide as selfish people as well!? ... not that i want to take this discussion there ... but i'm not sure on what foundation you could possibly ascertain this ... he gave all his life savings to oxfam which in it of itself would denote a lack of selfishness ... i get it tho - you believe that his desire to separate temporarily from his family is selfish ... perhaps ... but if we are honest with ourselves - we all act selfishly ... i am pretty sure 90% of your decisions are made in your own self intersts ... the issue is whether or not that decision was made because he only cared for himself ... on that point i would disagree .... you don't make the human connections he made in such a short period of time by being a selfish prick ...

    listen ... i don't know you from pretty much everyone else on here ... you seem like a good guy and i mean you absolutely no disrespect when i say ... that you simply don't get christopher mccandles ... and not that i would claim to know him better than you or anyone else but as someone who spends a considerable time in nature and as my own version of an environmentalist and as someone who believes that our fundamental existence today as people is deeply flawed ... i relate to him in many ways ... i have chosen a different path than him but i can also say that i was not as brave as chris at his age nor at my age now ...

    lastly - you obviously have every right to your opinion and i don't mean to say it is wrong ... i'm only trying to perhaps give you a perspective from my understanding of chris ...

    A lot to take in here, but yeah, his family does forgive him now, and it makes no difference if I forgive him or not, but the fact is he put them through a pretty shitty period of time, which in my mind is about as awful as it gets. There is no closure with disappearing, it is not like death, they have no idea where he is, what he is doing, if he is safe, etc. All they knew was that he was gone from their lives without a trace with no answers. That is awful and in my mind very selfish.

    That is a pretty big judgment. I don't think what McCandless did is anything like suicide. I think people who commit suicide are mentally ill and need help, not selfish. McCandless, from all accounts was in no way mentally ill. And for full disclosure, my wife's family has been greatly impacted by suicide, so it is not something that is foreign to me.

    Regarding mistakes, yes, I have made mistakes that could have destroyed my family, too many, but again, like suicide, I don't think what McCandless did to his family can be classified as a mistake, it was a conscious decision to cut off all ties to people who loved him. He knew they were hurting and he did nothing about it. There were also no signs that this was a temporary thing and that he ever planned on seeing his family again.

    I will be the first to admit that I don't get Chris McCandless. I get some of his disdain for society and I agree with a lot of his philosophies, but I don't get how he went about it and the people he hurt along the way. So no, I don't get him, which is also why I don't get the infatuation with him. I don't get how people can idolize someone who hurt the people closest to him so badly. You talked about asshole athletes yesterday, they bring people down through lies over a game, this guy devastated and hurt the people closest to him and who cared about him most. I see that as being more of an asshole than a baseball player trying to save his reputation.

    LIsten, I respect your views on all of this and I respect your views on this and pretty much everything. I also think your views on the environment are admirable, coming from a family of environmental studies professors. I think there is a right way to go about and take action on your views, and I don't respect what Chris McCandless did to his family. He meant well and I cewrtainly think he had a lot of valid points and views, I just don't like the way he went about it. LIke you with baseball players, I don't think someone who hurts people the way they do should be put on a pedestal. I also think the damage he did to his family is a bigger deal than damage to a game.
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,051
    Besides focusing on McCandless' death and whether or whether or not he was well enough prepared (I've had a bit of experience in the wild and I'm not sure I would have lasted as long as he did so I'm sure not going to judge him), I think it's more important to understand why he went into the wilderness and especially to understand the importance of wilderness. McCandless understood how irrevocably tied we are to wilderness- that without it we are all lost. Wilderness is the common link to all life and all life is interconnected. We are becoming the disconnected link. I'm thankful to Chris McCandless for his part in restoring some of that link through his story and experiences.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    A lot to take in here, but yeah, his family does forgive him now, and it makes no difference if I forgive him or not, but the fact is he put them through a pretty shitty period of time, which in my mind is about as awful as it gets. There is no closure with disappearing, it is not like death, they have no idea where he is, what he is doing, if he is safe, etc. All they knew was that he was gone from their lives without a trace with no answers. That is awful and in my mind very selfish.

    That is a pretty big judgment. I don't think what McCandless did is anything like suicide. I think people who commit suicide are mentally ill and need help, not selfish. McCandless, from all accounts was in no way mentally ill. And for full disclosure, my wife's family has been greatly impacted by suicide, so it is not something that is foreign to me.

    Regarding mistakes, yes, I have made mistakes that could have destroyed my family, too many, but again, like suicide, I don't think what McCandless did to his family can be classified as a mistake, it was a conscious decision to cut off all ties to people who loved him. He knew they were hurting and he did nothing about it. There were also no signs that this was a temporary thing and that he ever planned on seeing his family again.

    I will be the first to admit that I don't get Chris McCandless. I get some of his disdain for society and I agree with a lot of his philosophies, but I don't get how he went about it and the people he hurt along the way. So no, I don't get him, which is also why I don't get the infatuation with him. I don't get how people can idolize someone who hurt the people closest to him so badly. You talked about asshole athletes yesterday, they bring people down through lies over a game, this guy devastated and hurt the people closest to him and who cared about him most. I see that as being more of an asshole than a baseball player trying to save his reputation.

    LIsten, I respect your views on all of this and I respect your views on this and pretty much everything. I also think your views on the environment are admirable, coming from a family of environmental studies professors. I think there is a right way to go about and take action on your views, and I don't respect what Chris McCandless did to his family. He meant well and I cewrtainly think he had a lot of valid points and views, I just don't like the way he went about it. LIke you with baseball players, I don't think someone who hurts people the way they do should be put on a pedestal. I also think the damage he did to his family is a bigger deal than damage to a game.

    i think it comes down to the fact that i don't think he purposefully was trying to hurt his family ... but understanding that his family's existence was a big part of what he was conflicted with ... he became jaded and disconnected with that purpose and felt that he had to break free from it and discover what mattered to him ... sure, his family went through hell but along the way - chris made connections with people we can only hope to do so in our lifetime ...
  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    Good thread, and interesting discussion. I'm a little more neutral about McCandless than I used to be (I used to think he was an idiot). I still reserve that label for those who attempt to follow his trek.

    Here's an interesting read from Outside magazine. It was published on Wednesday:
    http://www.outsideonline.com/adventure- ... n=12192013

    This highlights my issues with the whole McCandless myth/legend. I can excuse McCandless for being young, naive, ignorant, etc... He may have had noble reasons for heading out, but was clearly ill-prepared, and had no idea what he was doing. But all of the idiots who follow this pilgrimage for whatever reasons don't have the same excuse. There have been enough deaths by these cult-like McCandless followers that for them ignorance can't be an excuse. I'm really more interested in what drives those groupies to kill themselves than what caused McCandless to do so originally.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • brianlux wrote:
    Besides focusing on McCandless' death and whether or whether or not he was well enough prepared (I've had a bit of experience in the wild and I'm not sure I would have lasted as long as he did so I'm sure not going to judge him), I think it's more important to understand why he went into the wilderness and especially to understand the importance of wilderness. McCandless understood how irrevocably tied we are to wilderness- that without it we are all lost. Wilderness is the common link to all life and all life is interconnected. We are becoming the disconnected link. I'm thankful to Chris McCandless for his part in restoring some of that link through his story and experiences.

    McCandless not only sought out the comfort and importance of the wilderness, but he sees in the end (of the movie anyway) how important that connections with people is also what makes us whole. What mankind needs is a good balance of the two - ourselves in nature and ourselves relating with others. Society, and especially the media, strips us of any balance, the more we pay attention to it. Getting away from that static is healing. But without balance, it can be deadly.
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,051
    brianlux wrote:
    Besides focusing on McCandless' death and whether or whether or not he was well enough prepared (I've had a bit of experience in the wild and I'm not sure I would have lasted as long as he did so I'm sure not going to judge him), I think it's more important to understand why he went into the wilderness and especially to understand the importance of wilderness. McCandless understood how irrevocably tied we are to wilderness- that without it we are all lost. Wilderness is the common link to all life and all life is interconnected. We are becoming the disconnected link. I'm thankful to Chris McCandless for his part in restoring some of that link through his story and experiences.

    McCandless not only sought out the comfort and importance of the wilderness, but he sees in the end (of the movie anyway) how important that connections with people is also what makes us whole. What mankind needs is a good balance of the two - ourselves in nature and ourselves relating with others. Society, and especially the media, strips us of any balance, the more we pay attention to it. Getting away from that static is healing. But without balance, it can be deadly.

    Well taken added point, backseat. Thanks.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • Byrnzie wrote:
    Then again, I do wonder whether he maybe wasn't completely dissimilar to Timothy Treadwell, the dude from the documentary 'Grizzly Man'. Underestimating the power, and the unforgiving nature, of....nature.
    This is what I tend to believe.

    I'm in neither the hero nor idiot camp when it comes to McCandless. It's no disgrace to misjudge nature but when people do, they receive so much criticism! Why didn't those dumb people evacuate during the hurricane? Why do people live in California when they have all those earthquakes? Didn't those people know you can be struck by lightning if you go outside during a thunderstorm? Why did that stupid kid hike out into the wilderness without a map?

    It's a defense, a justification. I'd never make that mistake, that would never happen to me! It doesn't matter if it's a natural disaster, lack of survival skills, or believing that there aren't any more undiscovered diseases. It's easy for any of easy to fall into that line of thinking and easy to forget that even a small mistake can be deadly.
    "The stars are all connected to the brain."
  • Cliffy6745 wrote:
    I really really really don't get the infatuation with this guy.

    Eddie wrote the music to the movie about his life. That's it period. He was an idiot plain and simple. Krakauer uses the guys diary saying he poisoned himself as a jumping off point. A guy who had very little education and acted stupidly every step of the way is the key witness in his own death. So krakauer writes a book and looks for clues to prove his hypothesis rather than go in with an open mind. Then eddie writes some music, and the idiot is now a hero to people who want total lack of responsibility instead of the dreariness of their own lives and rationalize it as some existential search for inner self. :roll:
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,051
    This discussion brings up another question: Is it wrong or stupid to confront danger in the wilderness?

    I don't think so.

    “Benedicto: May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. May your rivers flow without end, meandering through pastoral valleys tinkling with bells, past temples and castles and poets towers into a dark primeval forest where tigers belch and monkeys howl, through miasmal and mysterious swamps and down into a desert of red rock, blue mesas, domes and pinnacles and grottos of endless stone, and down again into a deep vast ancient unknown chasm where bars of sunlight blaze on profiled cliffs, where deer walk across the white sand beaches, where storms come and go as lightning clangs upon the high crags, where something strange and more beautiful and more full of wonder than your deepest dreams waits for you -- beyond that next turning of the canyon walls.”
    -Edward Abbey

    Not that one should foolishly invite danger, but danger is an integral part of the wilderness experience. My most dangerous encounters in wilderness are the ones I've found most useful as learning experiences:

    - coming face to face with a bear across a small creek
    -coming upon rattlesnakes in wilderness trails
    -getting so sick in the wilderness a friend had to carry my pack out for me because I was too weak
    -hiking from 6,000 to 10,000 feet up a mountain and then having to lead two women and a ten year old down 3,000 feet of elevation off a mountain in the wilderness at night with only moon light for vision

    Wilderness is our vital link to life.

    “Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit, and as vital to our lives as water and good bread. A civilization which destroys what little remains of the wild, the spare, the original, is cutting itself off from its origins and betraying the principle of civilization itself.”
    (again) -Edward Abbey
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Eddie wrote the music to the movie about his life. That's it period. He was an idiot plain and simple. Krakauer uses the guys diary saying he poisoned himself as a jumping off point. A guy who had very little education and acted stupidly every step of the way is the key witness in his own death. So krakauer writes a book and looks for clues to prove his hypothesis rather than go in with an open mind. Then eddie writes some music, and the idiot is now a hero to people who want total lack of responsibility instead of the dreariness of their own lives and rationalize it as some existential search for inner self. :roll:

    No, Krakeur didn't say McCandless poisoned himself as a jumping off point.

    And as for him having 'very little education', that's not true either.

    Also, Krakeur didn't write the book whilst looking for clues to prove his hypotheses. Did you even read the book? Did you read the article I posted above?

    Try harder.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Slightly off topic: Does anyone know of any interview in which Sean Penn mentioned his reaction to hearing Vedder's music for his film for the first time? I've wondered for a long time how he reacted to hearing those songs.
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