The Number Notebook for GA is horrifically flawed.

BF89905

Considering that I've seen fights over people jockeying for position to get at merchandise booths inside the Buffalo arena back in October, I don't see how people are permitted to 'resume' their spot in a GA line due to some asinine list. Be safe and enjoy the music.

noa.who

I wouldn't mind the numbers as long as all the people with numbers are still standing in line throughout the day and it's just to prevent from late arrivers to push/sneak their way in line. Any other arrangement is bullshit.

63schoefflin

A new low. I've never seen or heard of anything like this. I'd like to hear someone try and defend this if possible.

ambrasjes

The only way someone can cut any line is when you (yes you) are letting them do so.
I'll be in that GA line shortly and there will be no such shenanigans on my watch.

In my opinion, you can leave the line for "pit stops" and reclaim your spot when you return within a reasonable period of time (= ASAP).

pit stop n.
1. Sports A stop at a pit for refueling or service during an automobile race.
2. Informal
a. A brief stop for rest and refreshment, especially during an automobile trip.
b. A place where such a stop is made.

So a Pit stop from the pit lane is allowed for: collecting your tickets, grab something to eat, go to the restroom, go buy something at the merch stand,... as long as you plan on being back in line As Soon As Possible.

If you get lost for hours and think that you can return and reclaim that spot you left hours ago, then you and I are going to have a problem. Shit like "my friend over there was keeping my spot in line" will not fly! Get out of the line!
You were supposed to be in that line all day. If I didn't see your face around during the day, you shall not pass. Get out of the line! When I'm certain that you didn't pass me on your way out of the line... Get out of the line! :nono:

The most important thing you have to do when leaving the line for a brief 'pit stop' is making sure that most people you pass have acknowledged you as a person being in front of them. You might even want to tell some of them what you plan on doing and when you think you will be back. As in "going to grab some take out from accross the street, will be back in 10. Anyone else hungry?" You can also ask someone who's leaving the line that: "May I ask where you are going and can I tag along?"

It's called social control and it will only work when it is enforced by everyone.

Thus far I think this was textbook "waiting in line for dummies".

Now let's add a "magic marker" and a "number notebook" to this and see where it all turns sour. :corn:

Well, it usually doesn't, unless you let it happen. When everyone focusses too much on "the numbers", but no one's paying attention to the people, that's when abuse occurs and people get mad.

That's why the "number notebook" can only be used as an auxiliary social control system, the actual social control is everyone's shared responsibility whilst waiting in line.

But I hear you, there's so much to do and so little time... whilst waiting in line all day

Hope to see you all in that line next week, we will have so much fun :twisted:

That being said, I'm ok with numbering myself like an animal, just don't expect me to turn into sheeple.

Love you, mean it.

63schoefflin

Perfectly said. I mean I couldn't even imagine having the balls to walk out of line and then hours later come back and stand in line without feeling like a piece of shit. But hey, sounds like there are a group of people who lock down the front then come up with some bullshit to justify this. I am not even someone trying to gain anything from the GA lines (since I don't have any GA ticks to any shows) but this honestly is the most bizarre, childish thing I have ever seen.

Who the hell even thinks of something like this? I guess next time I will just leave the bar at 3am and walk over to the show. Pull a notebook out and then sign it, drop it by the door, and come back at 8:15 and walk in like my shit doesn't stink. Unbelievable...what a slap in the face from fellow 10clubbers.

PRL1JAM

In the past, I have paid my dues and waited all day/night in order to be up front. If I left out of line it was only to use the bathroom, and fans around me have always been cool with that. I held their spot in line when they also needed to leave for a restroom break. I would never sign some unofficial "line order" sheet that some clown created with a sharpie and a napkin. Who the hell are these people creating these list in line?

tremor_chris

You guys should try lining up for a Springsteen show in Europe. The first numbers get given out two days before the show. Seriously.

mrk2

tremor_chris wrote:

You guys should try lining up for a Springsteen show in Europe. The first numbers get given out two days before the show. Seriously.

But there the system actually works. The secret is : roll calls at given hours when you line up in the number order and people running the list check that everyone is actually there.

Between those you are free to go wherever... but if you miss a roll call, your name and number is off the list. On show days, there might be 2 hour breaks, but from something like 1pm you are supposed to stay in line. Everybody knows the system and is somewhat ok with it.

This way it is not possible to show up in the morning, wander off for the rest of the day and come back and try to reclaim your spot. That seems really fucked up.

buck502000

Sound live the proverbial goat rodeo or gong show. :fp:

ofthegirl75

I didn't even try for GA

strummers

Then they're abusing the whole line/number thing or they don't understand the purpose. It's been ideal in Europe for situations where the venue hasn't yet put out the 'official' line/barriers. It means everyone knows in what order they arrived to queue should we have to move the line. Do people abuse it? Sure. Are they right to, hell no (I get fairly pissed off when I see people taking the piss - although I'm usually too quiet to say anything! :? ). If there wasn't a list/number thing going on would people abuse it? Of course (and in my experience in much greater numbers).

We (a couple) queue in Europe. There are 2 of us, we arrive together (in Europe I've only ever witnessed people who were physically there get a number - I've always seen it refused when someone tries to write down the name of another person who isn't physically there). We only leave for bathroom breaks and to buy a bite to eat and bring the food back to the line. It is extremely rare for both of us to be out of the line at the same time. Other than that, it's pavement time! The vast majority of people do exactly the same. I'd say less than 10% of people abuse it.

Before this started (and at gigs for other bands). You could be, say 15th, in the queue when you arrive. Sweet! By the time doors open each person/group of people tend to have friends/parents/kids join them (despite the mumblings of "we're just catching up, we won't be staying in line") and, bang, you're down to the 30s/40s. Also at a lot of venues they don't have lines etc. sorted out straight away so people just kind of congregate - when lines/barriers are set up it can then be a free for all and, despite having waited all day, you can get royally screewed over. We were at one gig where we were 4th and 5th in the queue when we arrived. By doors, there were 12 people ahead of us - that's waaaay more than 10%!! At another gig we were near the front of the queue. The venue decided quite late in the day they were going to use a different door for entry at the opposite end of the venue, as a result we were near the back of the queue as the people at the back of the line were nearer the new entrance.

Is it perfect? Nope. Will anything be perfect? Nope.

Would I favour with or without? I have to honestly say, with.

EB60123

On my Bucket List is to be on the rail for a PJ show. Although I am twice the age as what I assume to be most fans on the rail, I am still hoping this will be a possibility. I am traveling from LA to Phoenix for Tuesday's show. A lot of effort is required just to get to that point. Would so appreciate any feedback and tips to accomplish what I hope won't be an impossible task. Lemme know. Thanks. -- The topic of this thread is causing me concern already

strummers

EB60123 wrote:

On my Bucket List is to be on the rail for a PJ show. Although I am twice the age as what I assume to be most fans on the rail, I am still hoping this will be a possibility. I am traveling from LA to Phoenix for Tuesday's show. A lot of effort is required just to get to that point. Would so appreciate any feedback and tips to accomplish what I hope won't be an impossible task. Lemme know. Thanks. -- The topic of this thread is causing me concern already

Just get there early (not sure what times the queues have been starting in the States). If a list is running, put your name down, grab a number. Wait, chat, make friends, cross your fingers that the weather is decent and let people around you know when you're going to quickly leave for either the bathroom or to bring some food back. I've heard reports that the lines/GA in general over there have been really chilled out. I'm sure you'll be absolutely fine! We're not exactly part of the young crowd and we manage just fine!

One thing though, be prepared to have an overwhelming urge to do it all again!!

EB60123

strummers wrote:

EB60123 wrote:

On my Bucket List is to be on the rail for a PJ show. Although I am twice the age as what I assume to be most fans on the rail, I am still hoping this will be a possibility. I am traveling from LA to Phoenix for Tuesday's show. A lot of effort is required just to get to that point. Would so appreciate any feedback and tips to accomplish what I hope won't be an impossible task. Lemme know. Thanks. -- The topic of this thread is causing me concern already

Just get there early (not sure what times the queues have been starting in the States). If a list is running, put your name down, grab a number. Wait, chat, make friends, cross your fingers that the weather is decent and let people around you know when you're going to quickly leave for either the bathroom or to bring some food back. I've heard reports that the lines/GA in general over there have been really chilled out. I'm sure you'll be absolutely fine! We're not exactly part of the young crowd and we manage just fine!

One thing though, be prepared to have an overwhelming urge to do it all again!!

Thank you, Strummers! When music is part of your soul, it never leaves you regardless of age. Sounds like you agree. I often buy just one ticket to a concert. Call it "taking myself on a date". My first concert ever attended was Elvis if you can believe that. Was probably 5 or 6 yrs old. Totally remember it. Wish me luck in Phoenix.

strummers

EB60123 wrote:

strummers wrote:

EB60123 wrote:

On my Bucket List is to be on the rail for a PJ show. Although I am twice the age as what I assume to be most fans on the rail, I am still hoping this will be a possibility. I am traveling from LA to Phoenix for Tuesday's show. A lot of effort is required just to get to that point. Would so appreciate any feedback and tips to accomplish what I hope won't be an impossible task. Lemme know. Thanks. -- The topic of this thread is causing me concern already

Just get there early (not sure what times the queues have been starting in the States). If a list is running, put your name down, grab a number. Wait, chat, make friends, cross your fingers that the weather is decent and let people around you know when you're going to quickly leave for either the bathroom or to bring some food back. I've heard reports that the lines/GA in general over there have been really chilled out. I'm sure you'll be absolutely fine! We're not exactly part of the young crowd and we manage just fine!

One thing though, be prepared to have an overwhelming urge to do it all again!!

Thank you, Strummers! When music is part of your soul, it never leaves you regardless of age. Sounds like you agree. I often buy just one ticket to a concert. Call it "taking myself on a date". My first concert ever attended was Elvis if you can believe that. Was probably 5 or 6 yrs old. Totally remember it. Wish me luck in Phoenix.

Good luck - you'll have an absolute blast!! I remember years ago saying I wanted to be on the rail for a gig before I hit 30 (we usually hung out middle-back at gigs). We got our first front row when I was 29, I was immediately hooked. Why the hell didn't I think about it earlier?? Haha. Have been in some very rough crowds over the years, but it never puts us off!

Spiritual_Chaos

Yes it is flawed.

And in Europe it has been exploted as hell.

But at the first Philly show it worked great, at least for the 20 first spots where I was at. People left for the bathroom or to go and buy food/drinks and then got back.

This "people leaving all day" or "listing friends who will not arrive" didn't exist in the first 20-25 spots at least. But the people up in front or that have the "notebook" can't be responsible for what happens far back.

But still, i was worried coming to USA because in Europe there are a lot of douchebag fans exploiting or acting like assholes.

But my experience was great with the list, the GA and the waiting and at least up in the front of the que everything was fair. But maybe people in the first 20-30 spots are more motivated to stay put. And also taking care of eachother so that all is fair etc.

strummers

Spiritual_Chaos wrote:

But my experience was great with the list, the GA and the waiting and at least up in the front of the que everything was fair. But maybe people in the first 20-30 spots are more motivated to stay put. And also taking care of eachother so that all is fair etc.

You could be right! My experience is usually that of the front of the line and, as you said, the vast majority of those people respect the fact you have to physically stay in the line and actually queue. You are never aware of what is going on throughout the whole of a line, just your own limited section. There are people who do exploit it, some a hell of a lot more than others. Any system (or lack of) is open to abuse by those who are willing to abuse it.

Unfortunately there will always be those people in life who are looking to take advantage and are more than willing to screw others over. It would be great if we could rely on the honesty and integrity of our fellow fans

dreamtonic

strummers wrote:

Then they're abusing the whole line/number thing or they don't understand the purpose. It's been ideal in Europe for situations where the venue hasn't yet put out the 'official' line/barriers. It means everyone knows in what order they arrived to queue should we have to move the line. Do people abuse it? Sure. Are they right to, hell no (I get fairly pissed off when I see people taking the piss - although I'm usually too quiet to say anything! :? ). If there wasn't a list/number thing going on would people abuse it? Of course (and in my experience in much greater numbers).

We (a couple) queue in Europe. There are 2 of us, we arrive together (in Europe I've only ever witnessed people who were physically there get a number - I've always seen it refused when someone tries to write down the name of another person who isn't physically there). We only leave for bathroom breaks and to buy a bite to eat and bring the food back to the line. It is extremely rare for both of us to be out of the line at the same time. Other than that, it's pavement time! The vast majority of people do exactly the same. I'd say less than 10% of people abuse it.

EXACTLY

The notebook was necessary in Europe to prevent you from losing your spot if the venue suddenly changed the entrance doors or if you needed to quickly go for food/drink/bathroom. If you tried to jump in line right before doors opened without standing in line all day with the rest of the fans, then the fans would yell at you and you'd get thrown out. Doesn't matter what number is on your hand. On more than one occasion the security guards responded to the uproar and escorted the offending people out of line. And there's no way you could get a number without physically being there. The system worked very well. (My experiences appear to be different from what Spiritual_Chaos described). Short breaks were allowed. It was very reasonable. If you missed two "roll calls" then your number was crossed out and you'd go to the back of the line. After waiting in line for 8+ hrs, we weren't about to let someone stroll in front of us. You shouldn't either!!

Last-12-Exit

My wife and u got in the GA line in charlotte around 4:30pm. We noticed people had numbers written on their hands and I tried to explain this notebook system the 10c uses.

What confused both of us was that there were people in line behind us with lower numbers than people in front of us. Maybe people felt to embarrassed to cut in line based on a number on their hand. We didn't see any cutting in the line other than people we saw leave (I guess to use the bathroom) and come back within 15 minutes.

bchagnon

Posted this in the other thread but thought I'd throw this in here as well.

An easy proposed solution:

GA tix are pre-marked with priority numbers. Venue entrance priority (place in line) is based on that. That shifts the line with picking up the tickets and not getting into the venue.

Once tickets are picked up, go to the bar, do some sightseeing, and be back at the venue at a set time (say 4:30 PM) and claim the spot printed on your ticket.

Best of both worlds here, rewards people who get in line early to pick up tickets (a line you should not be able to leave), but allows you to go do some other things once they are picked up.

Maybe I'm not thinking this completely through, but seems like it would eliminate some of the GA problems people have been complaining about.

Either this, or hand out GA ticks randomly (in pairs with consecutive priority numbers) and eliminate the need to get there early at all. And as with the above, have a set time to be back and form the line.

Anyways, just my thoughts.