Study: Welfare pays more than minimum wage in most states R

Jason P

Gern Blansten wrote:

When our government works to close unions and destroy manufacturing jobs I would say that it has gotten harder and harder to many to get something other than a minimum wage job. One purpose of a union is to make sure the company that makes billions takes care of its workers. That isn't happening anymore.

If the Union model works and is profitable for a company, it will continue to exist. It works great in construction by providing a competant workforce. I don't agree with the tactics when negotions come up with (like aspahlt workers striking right as the summer road work starts) but I like the workforce.

On the other hand, Twinkie workers continuing to strike as the plant is shutting down is nuts. That's a case where a union didn't work.

Anyway, if you start at minimum wage and work hard, you won't be working for minimum wage for very long. You will start making more or you build experiance and take that to someone who will pay you more. It's a big turn-off for employers when they see you have not worked in years. Showing that you have been activily working opens doors.

mikepegg44

brianlux wrote:

unsung wrote:

Minimum wage isn't too low.

It's Econ 101.

The destruction of the dollar through endless printing of more dollars is the problem.

Read Barbara Ehrenreich's excellent and courageous book Nickle and Dimed and you may find yourself recanting your first statement here. As research for her book, Ehrenreich stashed all her savings and went out and tried to live on minimum wage jobs. Even just living alone she had to work two jobs and just barely scraped by and her life was miserable during that time. If she had gotten sick or injured the whole experiment would have collapsed. The book really is a solid answer to those who believe minimum wage is sufficient income.

I think the point that Unsung is trying to make is that a minimum wage increase will be null and void after the price adjustment that follows from more dollars being forced into the system.
the dollars come from businesses, either they eat the costs or adjust their prices. There is more money in flow because people will most likely spend it. more money to be had, more demand on products, prices go up. hidden inflation in food is much more likely to happen in this scenario. A company puts 14ozs of cereal in a box instead of 16. The reason they do this is the cost of corn goes up (demand) and the cost of employee wages goes up (legislation).

It is a vicious circle unfortunately. The more you raise the minimum wage, the more things will cost those on minimum wage. Unless you perpetually raise it (impossible to maintain), or do your best to control inflation (impossible because no one really wants to be responsible in Washington)...which one do you think is more likely to be done? the answer is neither so we really are pretty fucked.

No minimum wage and raising the minimum wage are a way to combat the same problem, Cost of living) some just don't want to see it that way. If you are against a minimum wage it must be because you hate the poor, and if you are for raising the minimum wage it must be because you are a bleeding heart socialist hell bent on ruining America.

Prince Of Dorkness

unsung wrote:

My thoughts won't change. If the dollar had value then these people would be fine. Or are you proposing that the minimum wage be set higher?

Where should it be set?

and if wishes were real, Rand Paul wouldn't have to wear that silly chia thing on his head.

The dollar DOESN'T have the value that it did and trying to wax poetic about why that is while people are unable to survive working a full time job AND a part time job... well that's kind like debating wether a person would be drowning if the water level wasn't so high as they die in front of you.

I realize that most libertarians are free of things like empathy, emotions, responsibility to anyone but their own fucking selves... but in the end... the dollar is where it is and while CEO salaries have soared into the 8-figure range for huge companies, those same companies have kept the minimum wage where it is regardless of inflation and people are now literally going hungry even if they have full time jobs.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

mikepegg44 wrote:

I think the point that Unsung is trying to make is that a minimum wage increase will be null and void after the price adjustment that follows from more dollars being forced into the system.
the dollars come from businesses, either they eat the costs or adjust their prices. There is more money in flow because people will most likely spend it. more money to be had, more demand on products, prices go up. hidden inflation in food is much more likely to happen in this scenario. A company puts 14ozs of cereal in a box instead of 16. The reason they do this is the cost of corn goes up (demand) and the cost of employee wages goes up (legislation).

It is a vicious circle unfortunately. The more you raise the minimum wage, the more things will cost those on minimum wage. Unless you perpetually raise it (impossible to maintain), or do your best to control inflation (impossible because no one really wants to be responsible in Washington)...which one do you think is more likely to be done? the answer is neither so we really are pretty fucked.

No minimum wage and raising the minimum wage are a way to combat the same problem, Cost of living) some just don't want to see it that way. If you are against a minimum wage it must be because you hate the poor, and if you are for raising the minimum wage it must be because you are a bleeding heart socialist hell bent on ruining America.

Why does the money have to be forced into the system devaluing the dollar? Why can't it be diverted from existing pools by restructuring current spending practices as well as tax laws that benefit the uber rich?

mikepegg44

mikepegg44 wrote:

If you are against a minimum wage it must be because you hate the poor

Prince Of Dorkness wrote:

I realize that most libertarians are free of things like empathy, emotions, responsibility to anyone but their own fucking selves...

Thirty Bills Unpaid

mikepegg44 wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

If you are against a minimum wage it must be because you hate the poor

Prince Of Dorkness wrote:

I realize that most libertarians are free of things like empathy, emotions, responsibility to anyone but their own fucking selves...

Call me a buffoon... but what are you trying to say here, mike?

brianlux

How ever you slice it, unless wealth is redistributed, we will endlessly engage this kind of conversation. It goes right back to the 1% vs 99%. And the gap continues to grow.

Kat

unsung wrote:

Prince Of Dorkness wrote:

unsung wrote:

Sorry, I'm too busy taking drama classes so I can comprehend your posts.

considering you don't know the difference between a "textbook" and a "children's story book," maybe 3rd grade would be more your speed? :?

I looked into that, however Understanding PoD Drama is a prerequisite to 3rd grade. Let me get through this first, it's a tough one.

Both of you stop it now. :nono: :nono:

MotoDC

unsung wrote:

My thoughts won't change. If the dollar had value then these people would be fine. Or are you proposing that the minimum wage be set higher?

Where should it be set?

I mean, if you're going to have one, it should at least be linked to (actual) inflation.

Whether you should have one in the first place is another story. I'm torn.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Kat wrote:

unsung wrote:

Prince Of Dorkness wrote:

considering you don't know the difference between a "textbook" and a "children's story book," maybe 3rd grade would be more your speed? :?

I looked into that, however Understanding PoD Drama is a prerequisite to 3rd grade. Let me get through this first, it's a tough one.

Both of you stop it now. :nono: :nono:

Aww come on.

This was getting to be pretty funny!

Thirty Bills Unpaid

MotoDC wrote:

unsung wrote:

My thoughts won't change. If the dollar had value then these people would be fine. Or are you proposing that the minimum wage be set higher?

Where should it be set?

I mean, if you're going to have one, it should at least be linked to (actual) inflation.

Whether you should have one in the first place is another story. I'm torn.

Why are you torn? Why would you be opposed to a minimum wage?

MotoDC

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

If you are against a minimum wage it must be because you hate the poor

Prince Of Dorkness wrote:

I realize that most libertarians are free of things like empathy, emotions, responsibility to anyone but their own fucking selves...

Call me a buffoon... but what are you trying to say here, mike?

He's highlighting the typical, predictable reaction (of some) here and elsewhere that if you aren't completely on board with every aspect of gov't-directed "charity", then you must be a heartless bastard who eats live puppies.

MotoDC

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

MotoDC wrote:

unsung wrote:

My thoughts won't change. If the dollar had value then these people would be fine. Or are you proposing that the minimum wage be set higher?

Where should it be set?

I mean, if you're going to have one, it should at least be linked to (actual) inflation.

Whether you should have one in the first place is another story. I'm torn.

Why are you torn? Why would you be opposed to a minimum wage?

That's effectively what this thread is all about, isn't it? If you follow their argument to its logical conclusion, most folks that are against an increase in the minimum wage are really arguing that there shouldn't be a mandated minimum wage at all.

edit: Alternatively, I guess you could make an argument FOR the existence of a minimum wage while also arguing that it should not necessarily be a living wage. You could say that it's a check against uncounterable power in the form of companies/corps, but that raising it to or above living wage could, on the whole, demotivate folks from working their way up to realize some semblance of the "American Dream". I dunno just thinking out loud here.

chadwick

Jason P wrote:

Gern Blansten wrote:

This should make anyone with a functioning brain realize that our minimum wage is too low.

Do the math yourself. Someone working two minimum wage jobs will barely make enough to make ends meet. Are they lazy?

One would hope that you would not stage your career by working at a minumum wage and that it would be considered a starting point. If an employee can't start building skills and getting better pay, that is probably an employee that isn't going to last very long.

I made minimum wage for several years. Granted I had someone provide a roof over my head, but the experiance payed dividends in helping me get a good internship. (where i worked for free ... actually, now that i think about it i was paying to work there considering it was part of my courses :? )

most people have to pay rent/house payment when they're an adult. hell, some pay their parents a little something to help the family out, they are kids working a bullshit job after school

ajedigecko

Where should it be set?[/quote]
I mean, if you're going to have one, it should at least be linked to (actual) inflation.

Whether you should have one in the first place is another story. I'm torn.[/quote]

Why are you torn? Why would you be opposed to a minimum wage?[/quote]
That's effectively what this thread is all about, isn't it? If you follow their argument to its logical conclusion, most folks that are against an increase in the minimum wage are really arguing that there shouldn't be a mandated minimum wage at all.[/quote]


i agree...there should be no minimum wage.









got me wrong

Thirty Bills Unpaid

MotoDC wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

MotoDC wrote:

I mean, if you're going to have one, it should at least be linked to (actual) inflation.

Whether you should have one in the first place is another story. I'm torn.

Why are you torn? Why would you be opposed to a minimum wage?

That's effectively what this thread is all about, isn't it? If you follow their argument to its logical conclusion, most folks that are against an increase in the minimum wage are really arguing that there shouldn't be a mandated minimum wage at all.

I get the gist of the thread.

You are saying most folks and their in your response to me. I was curious to know your perspective and why you said you felt 'torn' as to whether or not there should be a minimum wage or not.

Jason P

MotoDC wrote:

[He's highlighting the typical, predictable reaction (of some) here and elsewhere that if you aren't completely on board with every aspect of gov't-directed "charity", then you must be a heartless bastard who eats live puppies.

I prefer my puppies broasted.

They make to much noise and tend to knock my sauteed mashed potatos off my plate when I bite into a live puppie.

MotoDC

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

I get the gist of the thread.

You are saying most folks and their in your response to me. I was curious to know your perspective and why you said you felt 'torn' as to whether or not there should be a minimum wage or not.

Likewise, I get the gist of your prior post. I chose to answer it as I did for a couple reasons, which are my own. Nevertheless, I updated my post w/ some further thoughts, though I doubt they'll satisfy your curiosity completely.

Jason P

chadwick wrote:

Jason P wrote:

One would hope that you would not stage your career by working at a minumum wage and that it would be considered a starting point. If an employee can't start building skills and getting better pay, that is probably an employee that isn't going to last very long.

I made minimum wage for several years. Granted I had someone provide a roof over my head, but the experiance payed dividends in helping me get a good internship. (where i worked for free ... actually, now that i think about it i was paying to work there considering it was part of my courses :? )

most people have to pay rent/house payment when they're an adult. hell, some pay their parents a little something to help the family out, they are kids working a bullshit job after school

True ... but things won't improve if welfare is the only answer. It just sustains barely making it by.

So there are two option. Scrap it out between managing work and family for a few years while gradually improving ... or maintain current conditions.

Last-12-Exit

Gern Blansten wrote:

unsung wrote:

Minimum wage isn't too low.

It's Econ 101.

The destruction of the dollar through endless printing of more dollars is the problem.

Oh is that it?

That's a big one.