Does the public need to know every detail and every decision that is made during wartime operations?
No, that's why we are civilians. I don't give a holy hell why they dropped the bombs. I personally don't think that the Japanese would have surrended. Had there been a land invasion, a lot of us wouldn't have been born. We dropped a horrible weapon not once but twice. And then what? War was over. I'm good with that.
That doesn't mean I want my government to lie, cover up, and destroy documents that make them look less patriotic.
Dropping 2 atomic bombs onto a civilian population is a war crime, or at least would be considered so if any other country did it. Some are happy to brush it under the carpet and call it a necessary action, for the greater good.
Flying two planes into 2 buildings is an act of terrorism, some people justify such deeds by looking at American foreign policy.
They had a way out ... unconditional surrender ... they had no right to demand anything.
if the reason unconditional surrender was so abhorrent to Japanese culture was because the emperor was considered a deity, and the only condition was that they didn't give him up....why was he allowed to remain as a figurehead anyway? ....so this condition was only acceptable AFTER the bombs were dropped....why? We can keep saying there was no other way...but there was no attempt to try another way.
As someone who is a self proclaimed WWII fanatic, almost every vet I've spoken with (from various Allied countries) felt that the Hiroshima bombing was absolutely a necessary evil. I value their opinion way more than any great writer. When you're right in the middle of it, politics and potential talks don't matter very much.
Do you consider a war vet more informed than these people?
Admiral William Leahy, top military aide to President Truman: “It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons. My own feeling is that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages.”
General Dwight D. Eisenhower: “It wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing . . . to use the atomic bomb, to kill and terrorize civilians, without even attempting [negotiations], was a double crime.”
Secretary of War Henry Stimson: “the true question was not whether surrender could have been achieved without the use of the bomb but whether a different diplomatic and military course would have led to an earlier surrender. A large segment of the Japanese cabinet was ready in the spring of 1945 to accept substantially the same terms as those finally agreed on.”
These aren't some low-level observers, or 'great writers' with no personal involvement.....I would think these are the people Chomsky references when forming his opinion.
As for the comments about the Japanese and how notoriously brutal they were, and Blockheads little hissy fit about ignorance regarding japanese war crimes (while defending dropping nukes, oh the irony).....
War correspondent Edgar L. Jones, February 1946 Atlantic Monthly: “What kind of war do civilians suppose we fought anyway? We shot prisoners in cold blood, wiped out hospitals, strafed lifeboats, killed or mistreated enemy civilians, finished off the enemy wounded, tossed the dying into a hole with the dead, and in the Pacific boiled flesh off enemy skulls to make table ornaments for sweethearts, or carved their bones into letter openers.”
Sounds pretty brutal. Do people really think there was no propaganda occurring in the Allied countries? How exactly did such a huge percentage of the population base come to believe the Japanese were vermin? I doubt it was personal experience. There are a lot of people who think that about middle-eastern muslims these days, and most people can accept that as propaganda now, right? I tend to never believe pro-war propaganda. There is always another way. Based on these quotes from US military leaders, I think a land invasion was unnecessary and the "we'd have lost a million soldiers" line is a false justification.
Any military historian will tell me the Japanese were buying time to regroup, huh Blockhead? Hanson Baldwin (military editor of the NYT who won a pulitzer for pacific war coverage): “The Japanese, in a military sense, were in a hopeless strategic situation by the time the Potsdam Declaration (insisting on Japan’s unconditional surrender) was made on July 26, 1945.”
Hopelessly regrouping, got it.
Here's the official record on the topic:
United States Strategic Bombing Survey of 1946: “Even without the atomic bombing attacks, air supremacy over Japan could have exerted sufficient pressure to bring about unconditional surrender and obviate the need for invasion. Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey’s opinion that … Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.”
Let me guess....all the quotes on this page....libtards? Stay classy bud.
Those people you mentioned were not going to be the first one's leaving a landing craft and storming the beaches of Japan in a possible land invasion ... in many ways I do consider a vet more informed than the generals and the politicians ... after all they are the ones that are asked (selflessly at that), to go and do an unimaginable task, they see the horrors of war first hand, they know the toll it can take. Essentially the allied soldiers stopped 2 evil regimes at the time ... and the Japanese committed terrible atrocities themselves ... war is hell. I have 3 uncle who served in WW2 and the only thing I ever heard them say about the war was everyone was very tired of war ...
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
My opinion on nuclear weapons changes frequently. What I do know is that since there use we haven't seen a war on the scale of either of the world wars since. So that's a good thing. I guess. Idk though. Much greater minds than me have struggled with it.
How many civilian deaths were the Japanese responsible for? It was extremely high, was it not?
They invaded so many nations that its hard to know. Theres estimates of 3 to 5 million. Some historians say its closer to twenty million because theres so accurate count on China. on top of that their forms of torture were probably the worst i've ever heard of.
I knew a couple who watched them invade their island nation during WWII, bury twenty random citizens up to their heads in the sand during a public showing, and walk down the line with a sword decapitating all of them. Just to strike fear into the public so they'll obey them. Twenty heads to pick up. Needless to say, after they immigrated to America they refused to buy anything that said "Made in Japan".
The bombs were extremely cruel and barbaric but it ended the war months before any best case scenario would have. In a war soldiers only care about their side and rightly so. Theyre always more informed about the enemy than desk people and they couldnt care less about inside government info. It saved tens of thousands of Allied lives. In doing so though it showed once again that war is hell. The Japanese brought us into this mess by bombing us but im guessing the emperor probably regretted that.
How many civilian deaths were the Japanese responsible for? It was extremely high, was it not?
They invaded so many nations that its hard to know. Theres estimates of 3 to 5 million. Some historians say its closer to twenty million because theres so accurate count on China. on top of that their forms of torture were probably the worst i've ever heard of.
I knew a couple who watched them invade their island nation during WWII, bury twenty random citizens up to their heads in the sand during a public showing, and walk down the line with a sword decapitating all of them. Just to strike fear into the public so they'll obey them. Twenty heads to pick up. Needless to say, after they immigrated to America they refused to buy anything that said "Made in Japan".
The bombs were extremely cruel and barbaric but it ended the war months before any best case scenario would have. In a war soldiers only care about their side and rightly so. Theyre always more informed about the enemy than desk people and they couldnt care less about inside government info. It saved tens of thousands of Allied lives. In doing so though it showed once again that war is hell. The Japanese brought us into this mess by bombing us but im guessing the emperor probably regretted that.
didn't he or someone in his command say "we have waken the sleeping tiger" ?....ha ha that pearl habor move sure bit them on the ass. also if we had not moped up Germany we may never would have had the H bomb right ?
How many civilian deaths were the Japanese responsible for? It was extremely high, was it not?
They invaded so many nations that its hard to know. Theres estimates of 3 to 5 million. Some historians say its closer to twenty million because theres so accurate count on China. on top of that their forms of torture were probably the worst i've ever heard of.
I knew a couple who watched them invade their island nation during WWII, bury twenty random citizens up to their heads in the sand during a public showing, and walk down the line with a sword decapitating all of them. Just to strike fear into the public so they'll obey them. Twenty heads to pick up. Needless to say, after they immigrated to America they refused to buy anything that said "Made in Japan".
The bombs were extremely cruel and barbaric but it ended the war months before any best case scenario would have. In a war soldiers only care about their side and rightly so. Theyre always more informed about the enemy than desk people and they couldnt care less about inside government info. It saved tens of thousands of Allied lives. In doing so though it showed once again that war is hell. The Japanese brought us into this mess by bombing us but im guessing the emperor probably regretted that.
didn't he or someone in his command say "we have waken the sleeping tiger" ?....ha ha that pearl habor move sure bit them on the ass. also if we had not moped up Germany we may never would have had the H bomb right ?
Godfather.
The head of the Imperial Navy supposedly said the "sleeping tiger" bit. That goes back to my earlier point about Japan needing a quick, knock-out punch against the U.S.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
Does the public need to know every detail and every decision that is made during wartime operations?
No, that's why we are civilians. I don't give a holy hell why they dropped the bombs. I personally don't think that the Japanese would have surrended. Had there been a land invasion, a lot of us wouldn't have been born. We dropped a horrible weapon not once but twice. And then what? War was over. I'm good with that.
That doesn't mean I want my government to lie, cover up, and destroy documents that make them look less patriotic.
Dropping 2 atomic bombs onto a civilian population is a war crime, or at least would be considered so if any other country did it. Some are happy to brush it under the carpet and call it a necessary action, for the greater good.
Flying two planes into 2 buildings is an act of terrorism, some people justify such deeds by looking at American foreign policy.
Perspective can be a bitch like that some times.
A war crime? For a weapon that never existed for any other war prior? In 1945, it was not a war crime.
And honestley, if you think about it, when is something ever a war crime when the winning side commits it.
76 years ago today and even with the Olympics in Japan, ‘Muricans don’t seem to remember. At least I haven’t seen any reporting on it today other than overseas media, mainly in the East. But hey, I’m sure Faux is all over it.
Does the public need to know every detail and every decision that is made during wartime operations?
No, that's why we are civilians. I don't give a holy hell why they dropped the bombs. I personally don't think that the Japanese would have surrended. Had there been a land invasion, a lot of us wouldn't have been born. We dropped a horrible weapon not once but twice. And then what? War was over. I'm good with that.
That doesn't mean I want my government to lie, cover up, and destroy documents that make them look less patriotic.
Dropping 2 atomic bombs onto a civilian population is a war crime, or at least would be considered so if any other country did it. Some are happy to brush it under the carpet and call it a necessary action, for the greater good.
Flying two planes into 2 buildings is an act of terrorism, some people justify such deeds by looking at American foreign policy.
Perspective can be a bitch like that some times.
A war crime? For a weapon that never existed for any other war prior? In 1945, it was not a war crime.
I have always defended the Empire blowing up Alderaan with this argument.
KNOWINGLY SLAUGHTERING CIVILIANS WITH THIS SPECIFIC WEAPON HADN'T BEEN TESTED BEFORE!
Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
76 years ago today and even with the Olympics in Japan, ‘Muricans don’t seem to remember. At least I haven’t seen any reporting on it today other than overseas media, mainly in the East. But hey, I’m sure Faux is all over it.
Pause and reflect.
What a horrific display of human might. I hope everyone has the privilege of going to Hiroshima, to pay respect to lives lost, and to remember why nuclear weapons should be abolished outright.
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Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
It was estimated that Japan slaughtered 250000 Chinese civilians after the Doolittle raid? That was early on in the war, Japan may be a great country now…but they weren’t like that during the war. The bombs ended the war, if Japan was going to surrender, they would have surrendered after the 1st bomb…
As horrible as the bombs were, there’s not doubt to me that it saved many more lives, on both sides. Japan was a culture where you die before you surrender, the emperor was divine. They were training kids to fight with sticks in preparation for the invasion. What chance does a kid have with a stick against an army? None, they were going to be sacrificed. Estimates were upwards of a million US casualties, and Japanese casualties would have been much higher.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,683
edited August 2021
The two bombings killed massive numbers of civilians who just going about their day and were not involved in the fighting. I don't see how anyone can justify those actions.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
The two bombings killed massive numbers of civilians who just going about their day and were not involved in the fighting. I don't see how anyone can justify those actions.
how do you feel about allied carpet bombing of germany?
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The two bombings killed massive numbers of civilians who just going about their day and were not involved in the fighting. I don't see how anyone can justify those actions.
how do you feel about allied carpet bombing of germany?
Same thing- totally fucked up. I don't support any military action that kills massive numbers of civilians. If that had happened to us here in the U.S., every one on this board will be howling bloody murder about it. But when it's those civilian slanty eyed bastards and lousy krauts that got killed its somehow OK.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
You've convinced me. Knowingly planning and slaughtering civilians by dropping atombombs on them is a-okey.
It was a war. Which is often, it's either them or it's us? Modern war's have been a bit different. They've tended to be smaller, and quite often with extremists blending in with a more innocent population. It feels like WWII was one of the last ones, where it was pretty clear cut. Germany and Japan were the aggressors, committed countless atrocities, and started a world war.
Is it good to drop a nuke on a civilian population? Not really. Did the ends justify the means, probably. Japan surrendered so that mean countless allied and enemy lives were saved from the fight not continuing. Japan had to surrender so any atrocities they were undertaking would of stopped earlier than had the nukes not been dropped.
I dunno. I don't think the nuke solution works now because we have mutually assured destruction. Back then though... it's like.. we've got the bomb, you can't win, surrender. Show of force kind of thing.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,683
If we spent as much time seeking solutions to war as we do justifying war and making it happen, maybe there would be less war, more peace.
And of course whenever someone says that, someone else will say there has always been war. Are we that incapable of changing?
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,692
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,683
If we spent as much time seeking solutions to war as we do justifying war and making it happen, maybe there would be less war, more peace.
And of course whenever someone says that, someone else will say there has always been war. Are we that incapable of changing?
yes, brian. apparently we are incapable. history shows us this, no?
Yes and no.
There are things we have done that were at one time said to be impossible:
-Running a mile under 4 minutes.
-Frost a light bulb on the inside.
-Heavier than air flight.
-Free climbing El Capitan
Sure, ending war is a much higher goal, but impossible? Well, OK, can we at least try and maybe have fewer wars? I think so. And if we do that, why not put the bar up even higher!?
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
If we spent as much time seeking solutions to war as we do justifying war and making it happen, maybe there would be less war, more peace.
And of course whenever someone says that, someone else will say there has always been war. Are we that incapable of changing?
Nah, my counterargument would be that the 3 things that historically kept the human population in check have been drastically reduced. War, Famine, and Disease. Maybe conflict is a part of human nature as a natural thing to keep our numbers down. Something we've kept fairly low since WWII (at least no continent multi country wars since then).
I always wonder, if WWII didn't happen, how many more people would be on the planet right now? 10's of million people would of sparked generations of people, had they not come to a premature end.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,683
If we spent as much time seeking solutions to war as we do justifying war and making it happen, maybe there would be less war, more peace.
And of course whenever someone says that, someone else will say there has always been war. Are we that incapable of changing?
Nah, my counterargument would be that the 3 things that historically kept the human population in check have been drastically reduced. War, Famine, and Disease. Maybe conflict is a part of human nature as a natural thing to keep our numbers down. Something we've kept fairly low since WWII (at least no continent multi country wars since then).
I always wonder, if WWII didn't happen, how many more people would be on the planet right now? 10's of million people would of sparked generations of people, had they not come to a premature end.
I'd always hoped we could use our big brains to logically figure out how to solves issues like overpopulation. (And it's really simple logic. Don't reproduce. I didn't.) Most other (if not all other) animals do not have the capacity to reason. Do we really want to waste that gift?
Edit: I should add, in case anyone thinks I have a thing against kids- I have a daughter-in-law, 5 nephews (2 of whom I helped raise for a number of years), 3 grandnephews and nieces, 3 godchildren, 3 great godchildren, 4 foster children/ great foster children via my wife, and several kid friends via friends of mine who have children. Who needs to have babies, lol!
Post edited by brianlux on
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
The two bombings killed massive numbers of civilians who just going about their day and were not involved in the fighting. I don't see how anyone can justify those actions.
There were basically 2 options to end the war. Option A would take years and cost millions of lives from several countries. Option B will cost about 200,000 lives and end it in a couple weeks.
Japan was refusing to surrender. They were training kids to fight with sticks because there weren’t enough guns. To keep fighting a traditional war it would have probably cost at least 20 times the number of lives, many being those civilians going about their day (if going about your day includes teaching your 13 year old son to attack Americans with a bamboo spear I guess). The bombs literally saved millions of lives. Japanese and America. Among Chinese and others too.
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Biological warfare in medieval times. Ingenious really. I wonder if the people behind the walls had any idea what their opponents were doing to them?
Dropping 2 atomic bombs onto a civilian population is a war crime, or at least would be considered so if any other country did it. Some are happy to brush it under the carpet and call it a necessary action, for the greater good.
Flying two planes into 2 buildings is an act of terrorism, some people justify such deeds by looking at American foreign policy.
Perspective can be a bitch like that some times.
Those people you mentioned were not going to be the first one's leaving a landing craft and storming the beaches of Japan in a possible land invasion ... in many ways I do consider a vet more informed than the generals and the politicians ... after all they are the ones that are asked (selflessly at that), to go and do an unimaginable task, they see the horrors of war first hand, they know the toll it can take. Essentially the allied soldiers stopped 2 evil regimes at the time ... and the Japanese committed terrible atrocities themselves ... war is hell. I have 3 uncle who served in WW2 and the only thing I ever heard them say about the war was everyone was very tired of war ...
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
http://sistemas.mre.gov.br/kitweb/dataf ... 20Bomb.pdf
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/world/ju ... 07-09.html
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinio ... 49131.html
I knew a couple who watched them invade their island nation during WWII, bury twenty random citizens up to their heads in the sand during a public showing, and walk down the line with a sword decapitating all of them. Just to strike fear into the public so they'll obey them. Twenty heads to pick up. Needless to say, after they immigrated to America they refused to buy anything that said "Made in Japan".
The bombs were extremely cruel and barbaric but it ended the war months before any best case scenario would have. In a war soldiers only care about their side and rightly so. Theyre always more informed about the enemy than desk people and they couldnt care less about inside government info. It saved tens of thousands of Allied lives. In doing so though it showed once again that war is hell. The Japanese brought us into this mess by bombing us but im guessing the emperor probably regretted that.
didn't he or someone in his command say "we have waken the sleeping tiger" ?....ha ha that pearl habor move sure bit them on the ass. also if we had not moped up Germany we may never would have had the H bomb right ?
Godfather.
A war crime? For a weapon that never existed for any other war prior? In 1945, it was not a war crime.
And honestley, if you think about it, when is something ever a war crime when the winning side commits it.
Pause and reflect.
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KNOWINGLY SLAUGHTERING CIVILIANS WITH THIS SPECIFIC WEAPON HADN'T BEEN TESTED BEFORE!
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Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
The Asian Holocaust Killed Twice As Many People As The Nazis Did
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
The allies committed far fewer atrocities…
Same thing- totally fucked up. I don't support any military action that kills massive numbers of civilians. If that had happened to us here in the U.S., every one on this board will be howling bloody murder about it. But when it's those civilian slanty eyed bastards and lousy krauts that got killed its somehow OK.
yes, brian. apparently we are incapable. history shows us this, no?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
The bombs literally saved millions of lives. Japanese and America. Among Chinese and others too.