and plus, id say this board is skewed more towards wilco and MMJ and Ryan Bingham. As I said, they are all fantastic musicians and bands. Id love to see any one of them perform. But its not like this board here, is Dylan central. Ive seen way more love for Wilco and MMJ especially. Dylans in his 70's, Wilco and MMJ and Bingham are the general age of people on the board here. 30's and 40's. They are of a different generation than Dylan.
To make any broad assessment of the posts on this board does something that is verboten in general poll taking and census type reports. Which is, 1, to make generalizations based on a 2 page thread. How many individual people have posted with a review of Dylans performances? 7, maybe 8? 10? On a PJ board no less. Without taking into the equation what I talked about, different generations, this board predelection for MMJ and Wilco, our age and demographics etc...
Most of all it doesnt take into equation things like audience member preference of why they bought tickets. Did most people in this thread buy tickets to because they wanted to see MMJ and Wilco live? I assume thats the case. Dylan may have been a nice third band to see, but I would guess most people in this thread and most people on this board, would be most excited and happy to see MMJ and Wilco. Any other band is just icing on the cake. And if thats the case, then it doesnt surprise me Dylan wouldnt be popular around these parts.
put it this way, say PJ toured with 2 other bands of equal stature to MMJ and WIlco. Theres a variety of ways to get a consensus and polling on how well received the show was and whether PJ killed it or not. One thing I dont think I would do however is go to a site of a band that wasnt on tour. So if it was PJ, MMJ and Wilco on the same bill, I wouldnt go to a De La Soul message board to gather whether any of those bands were putting on great shows. And if there was a thread on the De La board about it, Id take into account the preferences of the board. Does the board favor one band over the other. etc...
My main problem was the general sentiment on this board, or this thread was that the OP and others seemed to suggest that they spoke for the majority of concert attendees. Which is absurd on its face.
Interesting.
I don't think people on here are suggesting they speak for the majority of concert attendees any more than you might think you are speaking for the majority when you call all cops 'pigs'.
As you have also stated... people on this forum are free to express their opinions. Mine was stated that Dylan sucks. To my way of thinking... anything to the contrary of this is ridiculous- just people so in love with his past that they cannot see the present for what it is: which is garbage. Regardless... if you feel that he is worth your money... go spend it. I don't really care if you're having a good time we can both call it a good investment.
One thing worth noting is that you have tended to present yourself on this forum as the resident expert on musical tastes and that others contributing on this forum to the contrary of you tend to be mindless, drooling fools. I would suggest working on your presentation to avoid obnoxious postings- unless of course... that is just your way.
I think if you follow any of the reviews for Americanarama, or check out the MMJ/Wilco boards, you will see/read that people are leaving every night, either before his set or soon after. As someone else said, MMJ and Wilco are two of the very best touring acts playing today. It's a shame that this is happening, but it is what it is. I wish that MMJ and Wilco could just co-headline so I didn't have to spend $50 on shortened sets.
My main problem was the general sentiment on this board, or this thread was that the OP and others seemed to suggest that they spoke for the majority of concert attendees. Which is absurd on its face.
Interesting.
I don't think people on here are suggesting they speak for the majority of concert attendees any more than you might think you are speaking for the majority when you call all cops 'pigs'.
As you have also stated... people on this forum are free to express their opinions. Mine was stated that Dylan sucks. To my way of thinking... anything to the contrary of this is ridiculous- just people so in love with his past that they cannot see the present for what it is: which is garbage. Regardless... if you feel that he is worth your money... go spend it. I don't really care if you're having a good time we can both call it a good investment.
One thing worth noting is that you have tended to present yourself on this forum as the resident expert on musical tastes and that others contributing on this forum to the contrary of you tend to be mindless, drooling fools. I would suggest working on your presentation to avoid obnoxious postings- unless of course... that is just your way.
Trayvon and Dylan have nothing in common. Other than that, if you can read, I never said in those posts I was claiming to speak for anyone but myself. Thats the difference between me and you.
I havent said anything about you personally. I disagree with you vehemently on various issues but your post is personal. Id stay away from doing that in the future.
Im not into agreeing with you just because you have some delusional sense of how the world works. Im not into doing that. people have differing opinions dude. Not everyone is going to bow down at your feet just because you claim to have this amazing polling data about Bob shows, based on 7 people posting on a PJ board.
Im sorry that just doesnt impress me and its lazy. Its childish and it reflects poorly on you.
Time Out of Mind is hailed as one of Dylan's best albums, and it went on to win three Grammy Awards, including Album of the Year in 1998. Also, the album is ranked number 408 on Rolling Stone's list of The 500 Greatest Albums of All Time in 2003.[1]
Beside being ranked as number 408 on Rolling Stone magazine's list of the 500 greatest albums of all time, in both Pazz & Jop's critics poll[36] and Uncut magazine,[37] Time Out of Mind was voted as album of the year.
---
So yeah, its included on any list with Freewheelin and Bringing it All Back home and Blonde on Blonde. That does make it as acclaimed and beloved as any of his classic era albums.
So let me get this straight...when RS leaves newer albums out of their greatest__________ lists, they're compiled by a bunch of baby boomers so they're obviously gonna be slanted to their taste, but when they praise newer Dylan albums it's 100% legit. The only reason those album are getting any sort of recognition is b/c his early work, and judging by a few rankings of his catalog, none of his recent albums are getting ranked among his classics, they're getting ranked behind even some of his weaker output.
Dylan is a fantastic songwriter so he's gonna have a few chestnuts on everything he puts out, but in no way does it compare to his glory days.
I think if you follow any of the reviews for Americanarama, or check out the MMJ/Wilco boards, you will see/read that people are leaving every night, either before his set or soon after. As someone else said, MMJ and Wilco are two of the very best touring acts playing today. It's a shame that this is happening, but it is what it is. I wish that MMJ and Wilco could just co-headline so I didn't have to spend $50 on shortened sets.
Again my main problem isnt that people have preferences or opinions. Feel free to have them. My main problem is that those who have said Dylan sucks, specifically, have tended to inflate their opinion. Its not just that they dislike his live show. It needs some flair and self importance, so they say "well thousands of people agreed with me and walked out" or "everyone else in the venue agreed with me". Stop and think for a second how psychotic those statements sound. Are you really telling me what I think you are?
Leaving before his set is sort of meaningless in terms of getting some sort of data and the lofty claims made by people here. Why are people leaving early? Is the drop off the same amount of people who usually leave early at any gig whether we are talking Dylan or PJ? Are they really leaving or are they getting a beer and some merch and then coming back?
This board is preferential to MMJ and Wilco. And thats deserved in some respects. They are amazing bands. But you clearly arent going to get any important data about the value of Dylans live show if you base it on skewed data like that. Anyone who claims this board isnt more preferential to Wilco and MMJ is sraight up high as a kite. And thats your right. But don't come here with this idea that posting some thread about how Dylan isnt good live on a PJ board is somehow evidence that the MAJORITY of concert goers agree with you. That is just naive.
Time Out of Mind is hailed as one of Dylan's best albums, and it went on to win three Grammy Awards, including Album of the Year in 1998. Also, the album is ranked number 408 on Rolling Stone's list of The 500 Greatest Albums of All Time in 2003.[1]
Beside being ranked as number 408 on Rolling Stone magazine's list of the 500 greatest albums of all time, in both Pazz & Jop's critics poll[36] and Uncut magazine,[37] Time Out of Mind was voted as album of the year.
---
So yeah, its included on any list with Freewheelin and Bringing it All Back home and Blonde on Blonde. That does make it as acclaimed and beloved as any of his classic era albums.
So let me get this straight...when RS leaves newer albums out of their greatest__________ lists, they're compiled by a bunch of baby boomers so they're obviously gonna be slanted to their taste, but when they praise newer Dylan albums it's 100% legit. The only reason those album are getting any sort of recognition is b/c his early work, and judging by a few rankings of his catalog, none of his recent albums are getting ranked among his classics, they're getting ranked behind even some of his weaker output.
Dylan is a fantastic songwriter so he's gonna have a few chestnuts on everything he puts out, but in no way does it compare to his glory days.
Dylan has ALOT of classic albums. Its sort of basic brain power function to understand that list is long. Decisions have to be made in terms of what album is the tops, and what album is still damn good but is 20th on a list of best dylan albums. He's had so many classics.
You cant have it both ways. You cant say as some delusional nut was claiming here that "everyone knows his new stuff is crap and his best days were long ago". Thats just not living in the realm of facts, my friend. You are entitled to a preference in era and perference in albums. But to claim most people only like his 60's stuff, as was claimed I dont know if it was you, but someone claimed that. That most people want to hear dylan cover songs instead of dylan singing his own songs. Thats so laughable and its verifiably false.
Id recommend anyone check out his late 90's and 2000's work. Time out of Mind especially is among is best work. Critically and fan wise this is true.
musicismylife-
damn dude. that's what i'm talking about......that is the most ridiculous response to what i had said that you possibly could have made. not to make this a pissing contest. but i'm probably a bigger dylan fan than you are, so no need to try and further educate me on his background. dylan wouldn't agree with me here? what are you talking about? agree with me about what? the FACT that the majority of people i've talked to in the REAL world, not on the pearl jam message board which i rarely even visit, do not enjoy his live shows today? there's nothing for dylan to disagree with us about. he has no control over whether or not people dig his shows, and like you said, he doesn't care. you have a funny way of trying to manipulate a conversation....
anyway, i've been to dylan shows, i've heard people talk, i know dylan fans. i actually have real friends in the real word, and most of them like music enough to know about dylan's live reputation. which is notoriously bad these days among the general population. this isn't some idea my brain was just implanted with because people on pearl jam's message board don't appreciate dylan's live shows.
of course dylan has a rabid fanbase that loves anything he does. anyone of his stature would. and those people aren't the ones who leave disappointed in his shows. but they aren't selling the shows out either. i really have no idea what point you are trying to make anymore, other than using this thread as a vehicle to bombard people with your vast knowledge of Bob Dylan, which i'm starting to think is just a mashup of a few internet articles you may have read.
can't you just say that you personally enjoy his shows and leave it at that? the only person who is legitimately wrong in this thread is you. and that's because everyone else is simply stating their honest opinion which they are entitled to. you are actually trying to make an argument against peoples opinions which simply defies logic.
i agree with you that dylan is still a great show to see. but most people would not. and explaining why he's great to you cannot change that. simple as that..
musicismylife-
damn dude. that's what i'm talking about......that is the most ridiculous response to what i had said that you possibly could have made. not to make this a pissing contest. but i'm probably a bigger dylan fan than you are, so no need to try and further educate me on his background. dylan wouldn't agree with me here? what are you talking about? agree with me about what? the FACT that the majority of people i've talked to in the REAL world, not on the pearl jam message board which i rarely even visit, do not enjoy his live shows today? there's nothing for dylan to disagree with us about. he has no control over whether or not people dig his shows, and like you said, he doesn't care. you have a funny way of trying to manipulate a conversation....
anyway, i've been to dylan shows, i've heard people talk, i know dylan fans. i actually have real friends in the real word, and most of them like music enough to know about dylan's live reputation. which is notoriously bad these days among the general population. this isn't some idea my brain was just implanted with because people on pearl jam's message board don't appreciate dylan's live shows.
of course dylan has a rabid fanbase that loves anything he does. anyone of his stature would. and those people aren't the ones who leave disappointed in his shows. but they aren't selling the shows out either. i really have no idea what point you are trying to make anymore, other than using this thread as a vehicle to bombard people with your vast knowledge of Bob Dylan, which i'm starting to think is just a mashup of a few internet articles you may have read.
Let go of the holier than thou attitude and act like a normal feeling human being. Frankly you are acting rude.
Dylans live reputation notoriously bad among general population?
So wheres the evidence and data? You make a claim and you back it up. With facts. So wheres the evidence?
Just because you talked to your friends doesnt make you an expert on anything. In fact its an outright obscene claim. I talked with a few friends and they agreed with me! My god, stop the presses. So you mean, your friends, agreed with you... No way! I would have thought you and your friends would disagree on most every issue.
Id stop trying to pretend like you are an expert on anything other than your own opinion
Dylans live reputation notoriously bad among general population?
So wheres the evidence and data? You make a claim and you back it up. With facts. So wheres the evidence?
Just because you talked to your friends doesnt make you an expert on anything. In fact its an outright obscene claim. I talked with a few friends and they agreed with me! My god, stop the presses. So you mean, your friends, agreed with you... No way! I would have thought you and your friends would disagree on most every issue.
Id stop trying to pretend like you are an expert on anything other than your own opinion
can you give me some evidence that i'm wrong. you are making that claim. so come with the facts.
really, you are quite the hypocrite. i'm done with this ridiculous argument. enjoy talking to yourself.
Dylans live reputation notoriously bad among general population?
So wheres the evidence and data? You make a claim and you back it up. With facts. So wheres the evidence?
Just because you talked to your friends doesnt make you an expert on anything. In fact its an outright obscene claim. I talked with a few friends and they agreed with me! My god, stop the presses. So you mean, your friends, agreed with you... No way! I would have thought you and your friends would disagree on most every issue.
Id stop trying to pretend like you are an expert on anything other than your own opinion
can you give me some evidence that i'm wrong. you are making that claim. so come with the facts.
really, you are quite the hypocrite. i'm done with this ridiculous argument. enjoy talking to yourself.
you are the one making the claim. A person claiming that blacks are all criminals has the obligation to prove their statements. Its not the rational, clear headed person who's job it is to find the data. If you make insane claims, you need to back up the statements with data.
The fact anyone would say that because they talked to their friends that this means Dylans live show is universally seen as bad, is absurd. Unless of course you asked millions of friends.
Id suggest studying basic data and polling information. Imagine if the Pew or Census did what you did? Make ludicrous and grandious statements without evidence, and based their polling off of 10 people.
Dylans live reputation notoriously bad among general population?
So wheres the evidence and data? You make a claim and you back it up. With facts. So wheres the evidence?
Just because you talked to your friends doesnt make you an expert on anything. In fact its an outright obscene claim. I talked with a few friends and they agreed with me! My god, stop the presses. So you mean, your friends, agreed with you... No way! I would have thought you and your friends would disagree on most every issue.
Id stop trying to pretend like you are an expert on anything other than your own opinion
can you give me some evidence that i'm wrong. you are making that claim. so come with the facts.
really, you are quite the hypocrite. i'm done with this ridiculous argument. enjoy talking to yourself.
you are the one making the claim. A person claiming that blacks are all criminals has the obligation to prove their statements. Its not the rational, clear headed person who's job it is to find the data. If you make insane claims, you need to back up the statements with data.
The fact anyone would say that because they talked to their friends that this means Dylans live show is universally seen as bad, is absurd. Unless of course you asked millions of friends.
Id suggest studying basic data and polling information. Imagine if the Pew or Census did what you did? Make ludicrous and grandious statements without evidence, and based their polling off of 10 people.
You hear yourself or see yourself typing?
still trying to manipulate the conversation i see.....listen guy. you are the one is who is making claims, i'm just refuting them. so if your rule says the person who makes the claim needs to show the data, then that person is you. you are using a dylan message board as proof that most people still love his live shows. talk about skewed data. the hypocrisy you display is absurd.
also, you didn't respond to me about your claim that dylan sells out stadiums. why don't you show us some data for that? unlike what i said, that shouldn't be that hard to prove with facts.....if there were any to back up your false claim.
i can say that most people like pizza and ice cream and most people would agree with me. because in general, most people you talk to in the real world seem to be fond of pizza and ice cream. that is the logic i'm going with here. so if you asked me to prove that most people like pizza and ice cream, i'm sorry, but i wouldn't waste my time doing a census study to prove my point. but most people would accept the point i'm trying to make. do you see what i'm getting at here?......
I think the fact that he's touring with a couple of notoriously kickass live bands and it's not a packed venue night after night says quite a bit about the quality of his live show. I don't think MMJ and Wilco fans have an axe to grind with Bob Dylan and alot of them are reporting quite a few people leaving early.
Most classic artists approaching his stature have no trouble filling up arenas and sheds by themselves, let alone with 2 bands that have a reputation for being great live acts with some of the most loyal fans.
[
can you give me some evidence that i'm wrong. you are making that claim. so come with the facts.
really, you are quite the hypocrite. i'm done with this ridiculous argument. enjoy talking to yourself.[/quote]
you are the one making the claim. A person claiming that blacks are all criminals has the obligation to prove their statements. Its not the rational, clear headed person who's job it is to find the data. If you make insane claims, you need to back up the statements with data.
The fact anyone would say that because they talked to their friends that this means Dylans live show is universally seen as bad, is absurd. Unless of course you asked millions of friends.
Id suggest studying basic data and polling information. Imagine if the Pew or Census did what you did? Make ludicrous and grandious statements without evidence, and based their polling off of 10 people.
You hear yourself or see yourself typing?[/quote]
still trying to manipulate the conversation i see.....listen guy. you are the one is who is making claims, i'm just refuting them. so if your rule says the person who makes the claim needs to show the data, then that person is you. you are using a dylan message board as proof that most people still love his live shows. talk about skewed data. the hypocrisy you display is absurd.
also, you didn't respond to me about your claim that dylan sells out stadiums. why don't you show us some data for that? unlike what i said, that shouldn't be that hard to prove with facts.....if there were any to back up your false claim.
i can say that most people like pizza and ice cream and most people would agree with me. because in general, most people you talk to in the real world seem to be fond of pizza and ice cream. that is the logic i'm going with here. so if you asked me to prove that most people like pizza and ice cream, i'm sorry, but i wouldn't waste my time doing a census study to prove my point. but most people would accept the point i'm trying to make. do you see what i'm getting at here?......[/quote]
Interesting so I guess lifted is the only person who knows about Dylans live show. Anyone who disagrees is wrong. You evidently run a polling and data organization. I wonder how many friends you talked to. Again, its shocking that your friends would agree with you. Id think most friends would disagree with each other.
Send out a news bulletin. Lifted's friends agree with you.
you go where the data is. As I said, to find out if Bright Eyes plays a great live show, you dont go to a Skrillex board to find out. You just dont.
Move on friend. You are embarrassing. You posted absurd claims and cant back them up. Give it a rest.
I think the fact that he's touring with a couple of notoriously kickass live bands and it's not a packed venue night after night says quite a bit about the quality of his live show. I don't think MMJ and Wilco fans have an axe to grind with Bob Dylan and alot of them are reporting quite a few people leaving early.
Most classic artists approaching his stature have no trouble filling up arenas and sheds by themselves, let alone with 2 bands that have a reputation for being great live acts with some of the most loyal fans.
Or just the general basic fact that most people on this board are massive Wilco and MMJ fans and are around 30-40. Again, live news bulletin, a message board where MMJ and Wilco get alot of love thinks they blow dylan out of the water. Shocking...
I dont think they have an axe to grind either, I just think if you are real about it, that most people ON THIS BOARD, went to the show because they are in love with MMJ and Wilco. And theres reason to be of course. But lets not pretend this board is Dylan central, as I said. It isnt.
Its like seeing a bill with the Stones with PJ and Black Keys as the openers. I wonder what the reaction on the board would be about who was the best of the 3 acts?
I think you can only speak for yourself. When you start speaking for others it gets embarrassing. And theres just no way to prove any of it.
All you can do is say "I disliked his live show". Anyone claiming to know more than that, beyond their spouse or significant other, I think, is out of their depth.
The claims of people leaving mean nothing because we dont know why they left. Im sure alot of people left. But it could be because they had seen three other bands. Or because they bought tickets specifically to see a certain band and they played. Or because they had school or work in the morning. Or because they got a call and it was an emergency. Or because they were tired. Or they had kids with them and the kids were tired. Or they needed to be back home to pay the babysitter.
Theres a million possible reasons for people leaving. Unless we can get some exit polling on WHY people left we cant make any sort of statement about it. The conclusion that it was specifically Bob's live show that made them leave is jumping to WILD conclusions without any evidence.
Unless you stood at the entry gate and spoke to hundreds and thousands of people and they said "we are leaving because of bob's live show", well then... thats a different story.
My guess is that no one did that. They spoke to their girlfriend or boyfriend about it, and passed it off on this board as somehow representative of the rest of the crowd. Which is silly. Some people liked the live show. Some didnt.
I think the fact that he's touring with a couple of notoriously kickass live bands and it's not a packed venue night after night says quite a bit about the quality of his live show. I don't think MMJ and Wilco fans have an axe to grind with Bob Dylan and alot of them are reporting quite a few people leaving early.
Most classic artists approaching his stature have no trouble filling up arenas and sheds by themselves, let alone with 2 bands that have a reputation for being great live acts with some of the most loyal fans.
Or just the general basic fact that most people on this board are massive Wilco and MMJ fans and are around 30-40. Again, live news bulletin, a message board where MMJ and Wilco get alot of love thinks they blow dylan out of the water. Shocking...
I dont think they have an axe to grind either, I just think if you are real about it, that most people ON THIS BOARD, went to the show because they are in love with MMJ and Wilco. And theres reason to be of course. But lets not pretend this board is Dylan central, as I said. It isnt.
Its like seeing a bill with the Stones with PJ and Black Keys as the openers. I wonder what the reaction on the board would be about who was the best of the 3 acts?
dewie, you can't argue with this guy. you just can't. you make a valid point, and he just has to try and argue it.
newsflash musicismylife - not everyone that post here gets all of their information from this message board, or message boards in general for that matter. go outside once in a while.
you said yourself you haven't been to any shows for this tour, yet you are trying to refute claims that people are leaving during his headlining set because we are posting on a pearl jam message board. well ya know what, i've heard these reports as well, and none of them were from this message board. actually, all of the reviews i've read from this tour mention that fact. one was written by a dylan fan, who actually expressed in his review that he thought dylan was the weakest performer of the night. we're not making this shit up.
and dylan being my favorite artist of all time, as i've said, what could possibly motivate me to come here and express that dylan's live shows are generally viewed as weak, or hit or miss at best these days? nothing. as i've said, i actually still enjoy his shows. so i'm not trying to say he sucks. just saying that that's the reputation he has now. and i'm sorry, but i don't need to do a statistical survey to know that.
I think the fact that he's touring with a couple of notoriously kickass live bands and it's not a packed venue night after night says quite a bit about the quality of his live show. I don't think MMJ and Wilco fans have an axe to grind with Bob Dylan and alot of them are reporting quite a few people leaving early.
Most classic artists approaching his stature have no trouble filling up arenas and sheds by themselves, let alone with 2 bands that have a reputation for being great live acts with some of the most loyal fans.
Or just the general basic fact that most people on this board are massive Wilco and MMJ fans and are around 30-40. Again, live news bulletin, a message board where MMJ and Wilco get alot of love thinks they blow dylan out of the water. Shocking...
I dont think they have an axe to grind either, I just think if you are real about it, that most people ON THIS BOARD, went to the show because they are in love with MMJ and Wilco. And theres reason to be of course. But lets not pretend this board is Dylan central, as I said. It isnt.
Its like seeing a bill with the Stones with PJ and Black Keys as the openers. I wonder what the reaction on the board would be about who was the best of the 3 acts?
dewie, you can't argue with this guy. you just can't. you make a valid point, and he just has to try and argue it.
newsflash musicismylife - not everyone that post here gets all of their information from this message board, or message boards in general for that matter. go outside once in a while.
you said yourself you haven't been to any shows for this tour, yet you are trying to refute claims that people are leaving during his headlining set because we are posting on a pearl jam message board. well ya know what, i've heard these reports as well, and none of them were from this message board. actually, all of the reviews i've read from this tour mention that fact. one was written by a dylan fan, who actually expressed in his review that he thought dylan was the weakest performer of the night. we're not making this shit up.
and dylan being my favorite artist of all time, as i've said, what could possibly motivate me to come here and express that dylan's live shows are generally viewed as weak, or hit or miss at best these days? nothing. as i've said, i actually still enjoy his shows. so i'm not trying to say he sucks. just saying that that's the reputation he has now. and i'm sorry, but i don't need to do a statistical survey to know that.
im wary of anyone who claims to have data and cant back it up. You cite some anonamous unnamed dylan fan as proof. Really? So did that dylan fan sit at the entrance and talk to people as they left?
I havent been to any shows this tour thats right. But i generally make it a practice to not believe those who sell snake oil.
If you didnt like his live show? Fine. But dont come here and say you know why people left. Its embarrassing. You speak for yourself Thats it.
And yeah, to claim that hundreds of people left the show early specifally BECAUSE of Dylan, yeah to make any sort of claim like that you need data. No one on here has that data.
Its self importance and puffing out the ego. Id be fine with you or anyone else saying they disliked his live show. There are alot of bands I love that have great live shows and some people may disagree with me about them live.
Generally when I hear people talking about polling data that they obviously didnt collect, and lets be real here cause no one has outright admitted it, no one here, NO ONE spent time talking to anyone outside their circle about this, generally when I hear people make claims like that, that are obvious lies, my mind turns off.
The OP and everyone else should have left it at that. They disliked the show. The unattractive part was the speaking for hundreds and thousands of other concert goers.
My main problem was the general sentiment on this board, or this thread was that the OP and others seemed to suggest that they spoke for the majority of concert attendees. Which is absurd on its face.
Interesting.
I don't think people on here are suggesting they speak for the majority of concert attendees any more than you might think you are speaking for the majority when you call all cops 'pigs'.
As you have also stated... people on this forum are free to express their opinions. Mine was stated that Dylan sucks. To my way of thinking... anything to the contrary of this is ridiculous- just people so in love with his past that they cannot see the present for what it is: which is garbage. Regardless... if you feel that he is worth your money... go spend it. I don't really care if you're having a good time we can both call it a good investment.
One thing worth noting is that you have tended to present yourself on this forum as the resident expert on musical tastes and that others contributing on this forum to the contrary of you tend to be mindless, drooling fools. I would suggest working on your presentation to avoid obnoxious postings- unless of course... that is just your way.
Trayvon and Dylan have nothing in common. Other than that, if you can read, I never said in those posts I was claiming to speak for anyone but myself. Thats the difference between me and you.
I havent said anything about you personally. I disagree with you vehemently on various issues but your post is personal. Id stay away from doing that in the future.
Im not into agreeing with you just because you have some delusional sense of how the world works. Im not into doing that. people have differing opinions dude. Not everyone is going to bow down at your feet just because you claim to have this amazing polling data about Bob shows, based on 7 people posting on a PJ board.
Im sorry that just doesnt impress me and its lazy. Its childish and it reflects poorly on you.
Completely bewildering.
I made a point that you tend to cast generalizations in some threads... yet criticize others for apparently making them in their posts. I say apparently because I don't see these generalizations as clearly as the ones you sometimes blatantly impose in the midst of some of your long-winded sermons and rants.
Then you say I am making this personal... right after you say, "if you can read". Again... failure to be aware of your own style, while critical of others you suggest are employing the tactics you speak against.
I never claimed to have amazing polling data anywhere. What in the world are you talking about?
Lastly... maybe... just maybe... you shouldn't be disagreeing so vehemently with my 'delusional way the world works'. For example, when you call black cops "traitors to their race" and all cops "pigs"... perhaps you might wish to visit your mindset and question why you feel so strongly against a profession that- although marked with periodic episodes of corruption- generally seeks to serve a somewhat ungrateful public in brave fashion.
If one is unwilling to accept an alternative position and you have things figured out... why bother coming on to this forum? If it's to enlighgten everyone... one should save their breath. People on this forum are a little sharper than what you give them credit for. Flaunting an opinion and never listening to anyone is in poor discussion form.
* By the way... it is also in poor discussion form to run from inflammatory comments as well. People need to own their words.
I think the fact that he's touring with a couple of notoriously kickass live bands and it's not a packed venue night after night says quite a bit about the quality of his live show. I don't think MMJ and Wilco fans have an axe to grind with Bob Dylan and alot of them are reporting quite a few people leaving early.
Most classic artists approaching his stature have no trouble filling up arenas and sheds by themselves, let alone with 2 bands that have a reputation for being great live acts with some of the most loyal fans.
Your post brings up more questions that answers. Are the shows in general not selling well? Why? Some tours just flop sadly. For whatever reason, despite the amazing talent on stage. Are ticket prices just too high right now in a recession? If the venue isnt packed night after night, what does that tell us about anything other than the fact its not packed? Why isnt it packed? Is it packed for MMJ and not Dylan? Whats the demographic of the basic concertgoer for these shows? Is it a bunch of 60 year old aging hippies? Or is it mostly 20 somethings? Do specific age groups at the show favor specific acts? Do the 60 year olds go to see a certain band? How about the 20 somethings? Do the 60 year olds only go to see one act and then leave? Do the 20 somethings stay for the whole thing for all 4 acts? What does leaving really mean? Does leaving mean you are in GA next to a guy and a girl and they both turn and walk away? How do you seperate that from a couple leaving to go get a beer, or to watch the show from a different vantage point? Does leaving actually mean walking to the exit/entrance and actually walking away? Are the venues outdoor or indoor? How does that effect an audience? A few years back Dylan and Willie toured baseball venues. Thats going to have an effect on the audience just as an indoor arena show would. Some people might not buy a ticket for that reason alone. Some people like outdoor shows. Some prefer indoor.
We need to look at things from a variety of angles. Yet again, basic polling 101. You poll from many different places. And look at everything. You take apart every aspect of it.
I made a point that you tend to cast generalizations in some threads... yet criticize others for apparently making them in their posts. I say apparently because I don't see these generalizations as clearly as the ones you sometimes blatantly impose in the midst of some of your long-winded sermons and rants.
Then you say I am making this personal... right after you say, "if you can read". Again... failure to be aware of your own style, while critical of others you suggest are employing the tactics you speak against.
I never claimed to have amazing polling data anywhere. What in the world are you talking about?
Lastly... maybe... just maybe... you shouldn't be disagreeing so vehemently with my 'delusional way the world works'. For example, when you call black cops "traitors to their race" and all cops "pigs"... perhaps you might wish to visit your mindset and question why you feel so strongly against a profession that- although marked with periodic episodes of corruption- generally seeks to serve a somewhat ungrateful public in brave fashion.
If one is unwilling to accept an alternative position and you have things figured out... why bother coming on to this forum? If it's to enlighgten everyone... one should save their breath. People on this forum are a little sharper than what you give them credit for. Flaunting an opinion and never listening to anyone is in poor discussion form.
* By the way... it is also in poor discussion form to run from inflammatory comments as well. People need to own their words.[/quote][/quote]
My generalizations were my own. I didnt preface them by saying I speak for anyone else. Thats the part you seem to be having major problems comprehending. I have views on cops, racism, war and all that. Im not on here making specious claims and then claiming that I speak for hundreds of other people. And plus, any statement about police I make is always followed with reasons why I believe it. Im not claiming to have talked to hundreds of people in a fever dream who agree with me, like is being claimed in this board
Oh i see, Im supposed to agree with you and 10 people on a PJ board that bob;s live show sucks and take that as Biblical truth that the majority of people hate his live show. Are you really claiming that with a straight face? You cant be.
Disliking his live show is fine. Speaking like you know why hundreds of people left a show, and claiming that this backs up your views is delusional.
im all for owning words. Ive been trying to ascertain the evidence people have for the idea that hundreds if not thousands left multiple Dylan shows because his life show is bad.
Ive been waiting for days to see evidence to support this. You've cited an unnamed anonymous Dylan fan as your proof. Others have cited a brother in law. Im sorry, im going to need more data to believe this is the cold hard truth.
people want to make themselves more important. Saying, my girlfriend and I thought Dylan sucked live is alot less dramatic and important. However, if you were to say, my girlfriend and I, all my friends, and hundreds of concert goers all stormed out of the show because Dylan sucked. Then you make yourself sound more important.
You ever seen what peacocks and birds do when they try to impress others? This is no different.
im all for owning words. Ive been trying to ascertain the evidence people have for the idea that hundreds if not thousands left multiple Dylan shows because his life show is bad.
Ive been waiting for days to see evidence to support this. You've cited an unnamed anonymous Dylan fan as your proof. Others have cited a brother in law. Im sorry, im going to need more data to believe this is the cold hard truth.
people want to make themselves more important. Saying, my girlfriend and I thought Dylan sucked live is alot less dramatic and important. However, if you were to say, my girlfriend and I, all my friends, and hundreds of concert goers all stormed out of the show because Dylan sucked. Then you make yourself sound more important.
You ever seen what peacocks and birds do when they try to impress others? This is no different.
im all for owning words. Ive been trying to ascertain the evidence people have for the idea that hundreds if not thousands left multiple Dylan shows because his life show is bad.
Ive been waiting for days to see evidence to support this. You've cited an unnamed anonymous Dylan fan as your proof. Others have cited a brother in law. Im sorry, im going to need more data to believe this is the cold hard truth.
people want to make themselves more important. Saying, my girlfriend and I thought Dylan sucked live is alot less dramatic and important. However, if you were to say, my girlfriend and I, all my friends, and hundreds of concert goers all stormed out of the show because Dylan sucked. Then you make yourself sound more important.
You ever seen what peacocks and birds do when they try to impress others? This is no different.
You either don't understand the concept of word of mouth, or you refuse to take it into consideration for this particular discussion because it hurts whatever argument you are trying to make. Which im still not sure about what it is exactly you are trying to prove. Its amazing how much you contradict yourself. Comical.
im all for owning words. Ive been trying to ascertain the evidence people have for the idea that hundreds if not thousands left multiple Dylan shows because his life show is bad.
Ive been waiting for days to see evidence to support this. You've cited an unnamed anonymous Dylan fan as your proof. Others have cited a brother in law. Im sorry, im going to need more data to believe this is the cold hard truth.
people want to make themselves more important. Saying, my girlfriend and I thought Dylan sucked live is alot less dramatic and important. However, if you were to say, my girlfriend and I, all my friends, and hundreds of concert goers all stormed out of the show because Dylan sucked. Then you make yourself sound more important.
You ever seen what peacocks and birds do when they try to impress others? This is no different.
You either don't understand the concept of word of mouth, or you refuse to take it into consideration for this particular discussion because it hurts whatever argument you are trying to make. Which im still not sure about what it is exactly you are trying to prove. Its amazing how much you contradict yourself. Comical.
Guy takes you into a completely different dimension.
By the way... when you figure out what he is trying to say, please let me know. I think he's saying that the OP's observations are poor and that all the other folks who made similar observations have poor observational skills as well.
He also seems to be saying that opinions are okay for this forum and we are all entitled to them.
But then again... he says that without data- good, solid, well-ascertained data- opinions are discounted.
He also said something about people trying to come across as really impressive and dramatic by stating that Dylan sucks. These people are really trying to be peacocks or something like that?
He also said something about people trying to come across as really impressive and dramatic by stating that Dylan sucks. These people are really trying to be peacocks or something like that?
I'm not even sure a snakeduck can be a peacock... I mean, they are both avian to some degree so I suppose some cross-species genetic combo is possible, but I'm just not sure I have the technology available.
That being said, you wanna know what really sucked? Dylan's performance on The Last Waltz, especially when compared to every other musician on stage that night.
He also said something about people trying to come across as really impressive and dramatic by stating that Dylan sucks. These people are really trying to be peacocks or something like that?
I'm not even sure a snakeduck can be a peacock... I mean, they are both avian to some degree so I suppose some cross-species genetic combo is possible, but I'm just not sure I have the technology available.
That being said, you wanna know what really sucked? Dylan's performance on The Last Waltz, especially when compared to every other musician on stage that night.
I'm having a hell of a time picturing a snakeduck. With no visual representation of a snakeduck in mind... I'm going to have to take your word for it- even though you have offered no data to prove it. I mean... what now? Do you just expect me to think you cannot be a peacock just because you say so?
Comments
To make any broad assessment of the posts on this board does something that is verboten in general poll taking and census type reports. Which is, 1, to make generalizations based on a 2 page thread. How many individual people have posted with a review of Dylans performances? 7, maybe 8? 10? On a PJ board no less. Without taking into the equation what I talked about, different generations, this board predelection for MMJ and Wilco, our age and demographics etc...
Most of all it doesnt take into equation things like audience member preference of why they bought tickets. Did most people in this thread buy tickets to because they wanted to see MMJ and Wilco live? I assume thats the case. Dylan may have been a nice third band to see, but I would guess most people in this thread and most people on this board, would be most excited and happy to see MMJ and Wilco. Any other band is just icing on the cake. And if thats the case, then it doesnt surprise me Dylan wouldnt be popular around these parts.
Interesting.
I don't think people on here are suggesting they speak for the majority of concert attendees any more than you might think you are speaking for the majority when you call all cops 'pigs'.
As you have also stated... people on this forum are free to express their opinions. Mine was stated that Dylan sucks. To my way of thinking... anything to the contrary of this is ridiculous- just people so in love with his past that they cannot see the present for what it is: which is garbage. Regardless... if you feel that he is worth your money... go spend it. I don't really care if you're having a good time we can both call it a good investment.
One thing worth noting is that you have tended to present yourself on this forum as the resident expert on musical tastes and that others contributing on this forum to the contrary of you tend to be mindless, drooling fools. I would suggest working on your presentation to avoid obnoxious postings- unless of course... that is just your way.
Trayvon and Dylan have nothing in common. Other than that, if you can read, I never said in those posts I was claiming to speak for anyone but myself. Thats the difference between me and you.
I havent said anything about you personally. I disagree with you vehemently on various issues but your post is personal. Id stay away from doing that in the future.
Im not into agreeing with you just because you have some delusional sense of how the world works. Im not into doing that. people have differing opinions dude. Not everyone is going to bow down at your feet just because you claim to have this amazing polling data about Bob shows, based on 7 people posting on a PJ board.
Im sorry that just doesnt impress me and its lazy. Its childish and it reflects poorly on you.
So let me get this straight...when RS leaves newer albums out of their greatest__________ lists, they're compiled by a bunch of baby boomers so they're obviously gonna be slanted to their taste, but when they praise newer Dylan albums it's 100% legit. The only reason those album are getting any sort of recognition is b/c his early work, and judging by a few rankings of his catalog, none of his recent albums are getting ranked among his classics, they're getting ranked behind even some of his weaker output.
Dylan is a fantastic songwriter so he's gonna have a few chestnuts on everything he puts out, but in no way does it compare to his glory days.
Again my main problem isnt that people have preferences or opinions. Feel free to have them. My main problem is that those who have said Dylan sucks, specifically, have tended to inflate their opinion. Its not just that they dislike his live show. It needs some flair and self importance, so they say "well thousands of people agreed with me and walked out" or "everyone else in the venue agreed with me". Stop and think for a second how psychotic those statements sound. Are you really telling me what I think you are?
Leaving before his set is sort of meaningless in terms of getting some sort of data and the lofty claims made by people here. Why are people leaving early? Is the drop off the same amount of people who usually leave early at any gig whether we are talking Dylan or PJ? Are they really leaving or are they getting a beer and some merch and then coming back?
This board is preferential to MMJ and Wilco. And thats deserved in some respects. They are amazing bands. But you clearly arent going to get any important data about the value of Dylans live show if you base it on skewed data like that. Anyone who claims this board isnt more preferential to Wilco and MMJ is sraight up high as a kite. And thats your right. But don't come here with this idea that posting some thread about how Dylan isnt good live on a PJ board is somehow evidence that the MAJORITY of concert goers agree with you. That is just naive.
Dylan has ALOT of classic albums. Its sort of basic brain power function to understand that list is long. Decisions have to be made in terms of what album is the tops, and what album is still damn good but is 20th on a list of best dylan albums. He's had so many classics.
You cant have it both ways. You cant say as some delusional nut was claiming here that "everyone knows his new stuff is crap and his best days were long ago". Thats just not living in the realm of facts, my friend. You are entitled to a preference in era and perference in albums. But to claim most people only like his 60's stuff, as was claimed I dont know if it was you, but someone claimed that. That most people want to hear dylan cover songs instead of dylan singing his own songs. Thats so laughable and its verifiably false.
Id recommend anyone check out his late 90's and 2000's work. Time out of Mind especially is among is best work. Critically and fan wise this is true.
damn dude. that's what i'm talking about......that is the most ridiculous response to what i had said that you possibly could have made. not to make this a pissing contest. but i'm probably a bigger dylan fan than you are, so no need to try and further educate me on his background. dylan wouldn't agree with me here? what are you talking about? agree with me about what? the FACT that the majority of people i've talked to in the REAL world, not on the pearl jam message board which i rarely even visit, do not enjoy his live shows today? there's nothing for dylan to disagree with us about. he has no control over whether or not people dig his shows, and like you said, he doesn't care. you have a funny way of trying to manipulate a conversation....
anyway, i've been to dylan shows, i've heard people talk, i know dylan fans. i actually have real friends in the real word, and most of them like music enough to know about dylan's live reputation. which is notoriously bad these days among the general population. this isn't some idea my brain was just implanted with because people on pearl jam's message board don't appreciate dylan's live shows.
of course dylan has a rabid fanbase that loves anything he does. anyone of his stature would. and those people aren't the ones who leave disappointed in his shows. but they aren't selling the shows out either. i really have no idea what point you are trying to make anymore, other than using this thread as a vehicle to bombard people with your vast knowledge of Bob Dylan, which i'm starting to think is just a mashup of a few internet articles you may have read.
can't you just say that you personally enjoy his shows and leave it at that? the only person who is legitimately wrong in this thread is you. and that's because everyone else is simply stating their honest opinion which they are entitled to. you are actually trying to make an argument against peoples opinions which simply defies logic.
i agree with you that dylan is still a great show to see. but most people would not. and explaining why he's great to you cannot change that. simple as that..
Let go of the holier than thou attitude and act like a normal feeling human being. Frankly you are acting rude.
So wheres the evidence and data? You make a claim and you back it up. With facts. So wheres the evidence?
Just because you talked to your friends doesnt make you an expert on anything. In fact its an outright obscene claim. I talked with a few friends and they agreed with me! My god, stop the presses. So you mean, your friends, agreed with you... No way! I would have thought you and your friends would disagree on most every issue.
Id stop trying to pretend like you are an expert on anything other than your own opinion
can you give me some evidence that i'm wrong. you are making that claim. so come with the facts.
really, you are quite the hypocrite. i'm done with this ridiculous argument. enjoy talking to yourself.
you are the one making the claim. A person claiming that blacks are all criminals has the obligation to prove their statements. Its not the rational, clear headed person who's job it is to find the data. If you make insane claims, you need to back up the statements with data.
The fact anyone would say that because they talked to their friends that this means Dylans live show is universally seen as bad, is absurd. Unless of course you asked millions of friends.
Id suggest studying basic data and polling information. Imagine if the Pew or Census did what you did? Make ludicrous and grandious statements without evidence, and based their polling off of 10 people.
You hear yourself or see yourself typing?
still trying to manipulate the conversation i see.....listen guy. you are the one is who is making claims, i'm just refuting them. so if your rule says the person who makes the claim needs to show the data, then that person is you. you are using a dylan message board as proof that most people still love his live shows. talk about skewed data. the hypocrisy you display is absurd.
also, you didn't respond to me about your claim that dylan sells out stadiums. why don't you show us some data for that? unlike what i said, that shouldn't be that hard to prove with facts.....if there were any to back up your false claim.
i can say that most people like pizza and ice cream and most people would agree with me. because in general, most people you talk to in the real world seem to be fond of pizza and ice cream. that is the logic i'm going with here. so if you asked me to prove that most people like pizza and ice cream, i'm sorry, but i wouldn't waste my time doing a census study to prove my point. but most people would accept the point i'm trying to make. do you see what i'm getting at here?......
Most classic artists approaching his stature have no trouble filling up arenas and sheds by themselves, let alone with 2 bands that have a reputation for being great live acts with some of the most loyal fans.
can you give me some evidence that i'm wrong. you are making that claim. so come with the facts.
really, you are quite the hypocrite. i'm done with this ridiculous argument. enjoy talking to yourself.[/quote]
you are the one making the claim. A person claiming that blacks are all criminals has the obligation to prove their statements. Its not the rational, clear headed person who's job it is to find the data. If you make insane claims, you need to back up the statements with data.
The fact anyone would say that because they talked to their friends that this means Dylans live show is universally seen as bad, is absurd. Unless of course you asked millions of friends.
Id suggest studying basic data and polling information. Imagine if the Pew or Census did what you did? Make ludicrous and grandious statements without evidence, and based their polling off of 10 people.
You hear yourself or see yourself typing?[/quote]
still trying to manipulate the conversation i see.....listen guy. you are the one is who is making claims, i'm just refuting them. so if your rule says the person who makes the claim needs to show the data, then that person is you. you are using a dylan message board as proof that most people still love his live shows. talk about skewed data. the hypocrisy you display is absurd.
also, you didn't respond to me about your claim that dylan sells out stadiums. why don't you show us some data for that? unlike what i said, that shouldn't be that hard to prove with facts.....if there were any to back up your false claim.
i can say that most people like pizza and ice cream and most people would agree with me. because in general, most people you talk to in the real world seem to be fond of pizza and ice cream. that is the logic i'm going with here. so if you asked me to prove that most people like pizza and ice cream, i'm sorry, but i wouldn't waste my time doing a census study to prove my point. but most people would accept the point i'm trying to make. do you see what i'm getting at here?......[/quote]
Interesting so I guess lifted is the only person who knows about Dylans live show. Anyone who disagrees is wrong. You evidently run a polling and data organization. I wonder how many friends you talked to. Again, its shocking that your friends would agree with you. Id think most friends would disagree with each other.
Send out a news bulletin. Lifted's friends agree with you.
you go where the data is. As I said, to find out if Bright Eyes plays a great live show, you dont go to a Skrillex board to find out. You just dont.
Move on friend. You are embarrassing. You posted absurd claims and cant back them up. Give it a rest.
Or just the general basic fact that most people on this board are massive Wilco and MMJ fans and are around 30-40. Again, live news bulletin, a message board where MMJ and Wilco get alot of love thinks they blow dylan out of the water. Shocking...
I dont think they have an axe to grind either, I just think if you are real about it, that most people ON THIS BOARD, went to the show because they are in love with MMJ and Wilco. And theres reason to be of course. But lets not pretend this board is Dylan central, as I said. It isnt.
Its like seeing a bill with the Stones with PJ and Black Keys as the openers. I wonder what the reaction on the board would be about who was the best of the 3 acts?
All you can do is say "I disliked his live show". Anyone claiming to know more than that, beyond their spouse or significant other, I think, is out of their depth.
The claims of people leaving mean nothing because we dont know why they left. Im sure alot of people left. But it could be because they had seen three other bands. Or because they bought tickets specifically to see a certain band and they played. Or because they had school or work in the morning. Or because they got a call and it was an emergency. Or because they were tired. Or they had kids with them and the kids were tired. Or they needed to be back home to pay the babysitter.
Theres a million possible reasons for people leaving. Unless we can get some exit polling on WHY people left we cant make any sort of statement about it. The conclusion that it was specifically Bob's live show that made them leave is jumping to WILD conclusions without any evidence.
Unless you stood at the entry gate and spoke to hundreds and thousands of people and they said "we are leaving because of bob's live show", well then... thats a different story.
My guess is that no one did that. They spoke to their girlfriend or boyfriend about it, and passed it off on this board as somehow representative of the rest of the crowd. Which is silly. Some people liked the live show. Some didnt.
dewie, you can't argue with this guy. you just can't. you make a valid point, and he just has to try and argue it.
newsflash musicismylife - not everyone that post here gets all of their information from this message board, or message boards in general for that matter. go outside once in a while.
you said yourself you haven't been to any shows for this tour, yet you are trying to refute claims that people are leaving during his headlining set because we are posting on a pearl jam message board. well ya know what, i've heard these reports as well, and none of them were from this message board. actually, all of the reviews i've read from this tour mention that fact. one was written by a dylan fan, who actually expressed in his review that he thought dylan was the weakest performer of the night. we're not making this shit up.
and dylan being my favorite artist of all time, as i've said, what could possibly motivate me to come here and express that dylan's live shows are generally viewed as weak, or hit or miss at best these days? nothing. as i've said, i actually still enjoy his shows. so i'm not trying to say he sucks. just saying that that's the reputation he has now. and i'm sorry, but i don't need to do a statistical survey to know that.
im wary of anyone who claims to have data and cant back it up. You cite some anonamous unnamed dylan fan as proof. Really? So did that dylan fan sit at the entrance and talk to people as they left?
I havent been to any shows this tour thats right. But i generally make it a practice to not believe those who sell snake oil.
If you didnt like his live show? Fine. But dont come here and say you know why people left. Its embarrassing. You speak for yourself Thats it.
And yeah, to claim that hundreds of people left the show early specifally BECAUSE of Dylan, yeah to make any sort of claim like that you need data. No one on here has that data.
Its self importance and puffing out the ego. Id be fine with you or anyone else saying they disliked his live show. There are alot of bands I love that have great live shows and some people may disagree with me about them live.
Generally when I hear people talking about polling data that they obviously didnt collect, and lets be real here cause no one has outright admitted it, no one here, NO ONE spent time talking to anyone outside their circle about this, generally when I hear people make claims like that, that are obvious lies, my mind turns off.
The OP and everyone else should have left it at that. They disliked the show. The unattractive part was the speaking for hundreds and thousands of other concert goers.
Completely bewildering.
I made a point that you tend to cast generalizations in some threads... yet criticize others for apparently making them in their posts. I say apparently because I don't see these generalizations as clearly as the ones you sometimes blatantly impose in the midst of some of your long-winded sermons and rants.
Then you say I am making this personal... right after you say, "if you can read". Again... failure to be aware of your own style, while critical of others you suggest are employing the tactics you speak against.
I never claimed to have amazing polling data anywhere. What in the world are you talking about?
Lastly... maybe... just maybe... you shouldn't be disagreeing so vehemently with my 'delusional way the world works'. For example, when you call black cops "traitors to their race" and all cops "pigs"... perhaps you might wish to visit your mindset and question why you feel so strongly against a profession that- although marked with periodic episodes of corruption- generally seeks to serve a somewhat ungrateful public in brave fashion.
If one is unwilling to accept an alternative position and you have things figured out... why bother coming on to this forum? If it's to enlighgten everyone... one should save their breath. People on this forum are a little sharper than what you give them credit for. Flaunting an opinion and never listening to anyone is in poor discussion form.
* By the way... it is also in poor discussion form to run from inflammatory comments as well. People need to own their words.
Your post brings up more questions that answers. Are the shows in general not selling well? Why? Some tours just flop sadly. For whatever reason, despite the amazing talent on stage. Are ticket prices just too high right now in a recession? If the venue isnt packed night after night, what does that tell us about anything other than the fact its not packed? Why isnt it packed? Is it packed for MMJ and not Dylan? Whats the demographic of the basic concertgoer for these shows? Is it a bunch of 60 year old aging hippies? Or is it mostly 20 somethings? Do specific age groups at the show favor specific acts? Do the 60 year olds go to see a certain band? How about the 20 somethings? Do the 60 year olds only go to see one act and then leave? Do the 20 somethings stay for the whole thing for all 4 acts? What does leaving really mean? Does leaving mean you are in GA next to a guy and a girl and they both turn and walk away? How do you seperate that from a couple leaving to go get a beer, or to watch the show from a different vantage point? Does leaving actually mean walking to the exit/entrance and actually walking away? Are the venues outdoor or indoor? How does that effect an audience? A few years back Dylan and Willie toured baseball venues. Thats going to have an effect on the audience just as an indoor arena show would. Some people might not buy a ticket for that reason alone. Some people like outdoor shows. Some prefer indoor.
We need to look at things from a variety of angles. Yet again, basic polling 101. You poll from many different places. And look at everything. You take apart every aspect of it.
I made a point that you tend to cast generalizations in some threads... yet criticize others for apparently making them in their posts. I say apparently because I don't see these generalizations as clearly as the ones you sometimes blatantly impose in the midst of some of your long-winded sermons and rants.
Then you say I am making this personal... right after you say, "if you can read". Again... failure to be aware of your own style, while critical of others you suggest are employing the tactics you speak against.
I never claimed to have amazing polling data anywhere. What in the world are you talking about?
Lastly... maybe... just maybe... you shouldn't be disagreeing so vehemently with my 'delusional way the world works'. For example, when you call black cops "traitors to their race" and all cops "pigs"... perhaps you might wish to visit your mindset and question why you feel so strongly against a profession that- although marked with periodic episodes of corruption- generally seeks to serve a somewhat ungrateful public in brave fashion.
If one is unwilling to accept an alternative position and you have things figured out... why bother coming on to this forum? If it's to enlighgten everyone... one should save their breath. People on this forum are a little sharper than what you give them credit for. Flaunting an opinion and never listening to anyone is in poor discussion form.
* By the way... it is also in poor discussion form to run from inflammatory comments as well. People need to own their words.[/quote][/quote]
My generalizations were my own. I didnt preface them by saying I speak for anyone else. Thats the part you seem to be having major problems comprehending. I have views on cops, racism, war and all that. Im not on here making specious claims and then claiming that I speak for hundreds of other people. And plus, any statement about police I make is always followed with reasons why I believe it. Im not claiming to have talked to hundreds of people in a fever dream who agree with me, like is being claimed in this board
Oh i see, Im supposed to agree with you and 10 people on a PJ board that bob;s live show sucks and take that as Biblical truth that the majority of people hate his live show. Are you really claiming that with a straight face? You cant be.
Disliking his live show is fine. Speaking like you know why hundreds of people left a show, and claiming that this backs up your views is delusional.
Ive been waiting for days to see evidence to support this. You've cited an unnamed anonymous Dylan fan as your proof. Others have cited a brother in law. Im sorry, im going to need more data to believe this is the cold hard truth.
people want to make themselves more important. Saying, my girlfriend and I thought Dylan sucked live is alot less dramatic and important. However, if you were to say, my girlfriend and I, all my friends, and hundreds of concert goers all stormed out of the show because Dylan sucked. Then you make yourself sound more important.
You ever seen what peacocks and birds do when they try to impress others? This is no different.
I heard he is not even playing guitar.
You have me confused with someone else.
Go back and read my posts.
Guy takes you into a completely different dimension.
By the way... when you figure out what he is trying to say, please let me know. I think he's saying that the OP's observations are poor and that all the other folks who made similar observations have poor observational skills as well.
He also seems to be saying that opinions are okay for this forum and we are all entitled to them.
But then again... he says that without data- good, solid, well-ascertained data- opinions are discounted.
He also said something about people trying to come across as really impressive and dramatic by stating that Dylan sucks. These people are really trying to be peacocks or something like that?
I'm not even sure a snakeduck can be a peacock... I mean, they are both avian to some degree so I suppose some cross-species genetic combo is possible, but I'm just not sure I have the technology available.
That being said, you wanna know what really sucked? Dylan's performance on The Last Waltz, especially when compared to every other musician on stage that night.
I'm having a hell of a time picturing a snakeduck. With no visual representation of a snakeduck in mind... I'm going to have to take your word for it- even though you have offered no data to prove it. I mean... what now? Do you just expect me to think you cannot be a peacock just because you say so?