Edward Snowden & The N.S.A Revelations

JimmyV

Cliffy6745 wrote:

It's pretty fucking hilarious that I am a brainwashed moron because I don't immediately jump on the snowden bandwagon while posting greenwald articles. Excuse us for actually processing a situation and thinking about it before rushing to judgement and wanting to see how the situation and conversation plays out

Mind you, perhaps Americans aren't just preoccupied with reality tv as some have suggested and don't see it as a big deal, ESPECIALLY while half the country is dying for a good Obama scandal

Careful now...it has been dictated that Edward Snowden is a hero. How dare any of us question that?

Byrnzie

Cliffy6745 wrote:

It's pretty fucking hilarious that I am a brainwashed moron because I don't immediately jump on the snowden bandwagon while posting greenwald articles. Excuse us for actually processing a situation and thinking about it before rushing to judgement and wanting to see how the situation and conversation plays out

Mind you, perhaps Americans aren't just preoccupied with reality tv as some have suggested and don't see it as a big deal, ESPECIALLY while half the country is dying for a good Obama scandal

You can put your dummy back in your mouth now.

I wasn't referring to you specifically. On the first page of this thread Snowden is labelled a traitor and as 'bullshit'. And the last 18 pages of this thread contain calls for his imprisonment, and accusations of him being a spy in the pocket of the Chinese and Russians. Not one person has called for any action against James Clapper after it was proved that he lied under oath about the NSA's surveillance programs.

Byrnzie

JimmyV wrote:

So...people who disagree with you are also brainwashed and deluded? I see.

No, that's not what I said. And it's not what Sludgefactory said either.

JimmyV

Byrnzie wrote:

JimmyV wrote:

So...people who disagree with you are also brainwashed and deluded? I see.

No, that's not what I said. And it's not what Sludgefactory said either.

No, I don't believe Sludgefactory ever did say anything like that. Nor did I say he/she did. You on the other hand...your words speak for themselves.

Byrnzie

JimmyV wrote:

Careful now...it has been dictated that Edward Snowden is a hero. How dare any of us question that?

Keep blowing hot air, and lame inanities. It's definitely not making you look like a 5 year old that's had his toys taken away.

Byrnzie

JimmyV wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

JimmyV wrote:

So...people who disagree with you are also brainwashed and deluded? I see.

No, that's not what I said. And it's not what Sludgefactory said either.

No, I don't believe Sludgefactory ever did say anything like that. Nor did I say he/she did. You on the other hand...your words speak for themselves.

Why don't you go back to accusing me of being filled with hateful bias and prejudice against America and all Americans again? That argument was a sure winner.

JimmyV

Byrnzie wrote:

JimmyV wrote:

Careful now...it has been dictated that Edward Snowden is a hero. How dare any of us question that?

Keep blowing hot air, and lame inanities. It's definitely not making you look like a 5 year old that's had his toys taken away.

OK Byrnzie.

London Bridge

Byrnzie wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

It's pretty fucking hilarious that I am a brainwashed moron because I don't immediately jump on the snowden bandwagon while posting greenwald articles. Excuse us for actually processing a situation and thinking about it before rushing to judgement and wanting to see how the situation and conversation plays out

Mind you, perhaps Americans aren't just preoccupied with reality tv as some have suggested and don't see it as a big deal, ESPECIALLY while half the country is dying for a good Obama scandal

You can put your dummy back in your mouth now.

I wasn't referring to you specifically. On the first page of this thread Snowden is labelled a traitor and as 'bullshit'. And the last 18 pages of this thread contain calls for his imprisonment, and accusations of him being a spy in the pocket of the Chinese and Russians. Not one person has called for any action against James Clapper after it was proved that he lied under oath about the NSA's surveillance programs.

I thought this was the Edward Snowden thread, not the James Clapper thread :P

JimmyV

Byrnzie wrote:

Why don't you go back to accusing me of being filled with hateful bias and prejudice against America and all Americans again? That argument was a sure winner.

Again, your words speak for themselves.

Guitar92player

Sludge Factory wrote:

Seems to me you are jumping to conclusions about what I am saying. I didn't single out, nor attack a specific person. I made a statement that I felt Byrnzie, someone who isn't even from the U.S., was displaying more Patriotic tendencies in questioning those in positions of authority than those who are too busy attacking the messenger; doing so rather than discussing the message and the ramifications it entails. If you feel I was attacking you personally that is your own thing and may be indicative of a need to rethink some things you have said that would cause you to take such offense to what I have stated.

I didn't label anyone unpatriotic. I didn't even mention the word until you brought it up. Here is what I did, I made a statement that I felt there were too many nationalistic apologists in this thread. Meaning there are too many people so ready to blindly back up what the government is saying. People more interested in condemning the messenger and not the message. How can anyone have an honest debate about the issue at hand within those parameters?

The thread is indeed title "Edward Snowden" but perhaps one should look at the content of the OP to use context information to see what the discussion is about.

Furthermore, I think you confuse "attacks against the U.S. government" with "legitimate questions that should be asked of any government". The U.S. is in the spotlight in this incident because that is the relevant topic in regards to this thread.

The fact you are calling him "more" Patriotic is the problem. In this thread I haven't necessarily been defending the government, I stated that I understand what the program is, despite the fact it sucks that civil liberties were being abused. To me I see the benefits of it, despite it solving a problem that barely happens, and its ability can help solve more than what it is intended for.

Me, and others who feel the same as well as different, are as patriotic as the others in this issue. We just have different opinions on the matter. In the end we all come to a conclusion on what is best for America.

You may not agree with my view, but in my opinion this program, despite how bullshit it might be, has some potential (and supposedly proven) benefits.

Yes, it might violate the Constitution, but as years go on, and technology keeps getting better, and enemies get smarter, the Constitution may hold us back from using measures to protect us.

To be clear, I respect your view and know you are a caring American as well. Glad you are an aware citizen.

Byrnzie

Guitar92player wrote:

Yes, it might violate the Constitution, but as years go on, and technology keeps getting better, and enemies get smarter, the Constitution may hold us back from using measures to protect us.

Or maybe Snowden will be proven right. We'll see. At least thanks to him we can now have this discussion.


"The greatest fear that I have regarding the outcome for America of these disclosures is that nothing will change. People will see in the media all of these disclosures. They'll know the lengths that the government is going to grant themselves powers unilaterally to create greater control over American society and global society. But they won't be willing to take the risks necessary to stand up and fight to change things to force their representatives to actually take a stand in their interests.

And the months ahead, the years ahead it's only going to get worse until eventually there will be a time where policies will change because the only thing that restricts the activities of the surveillance state are policy. Even our agreements with other sovereign governments, we consider that to be a stipulation of policy rather then a stipulation of law. And because of that a new leader will be elected, they'll find the switch, say that 'Because of the crisis, because of the dangers we face in the world, some new and unpredicted threat, we need more authority, we need more power.' And there will be nothing the people can do at that point to oppose it. And it will be turnkey tyranny."

Guitar92player

By the way, I did not state this earlier, but although I agree with them doing it here, I find it complete bullshit that we do it to other countries. There is absolutely no reason we should be doing that to others.

Guitar92player

Byrnzie wrote:

Guitar92player wrote:

Yes, it might violate the Constitution, but as years go on, and technology keeps getting better, and enemies get smarter, the Constitution may hold us back from using measures to protect us.

Or maybe Snowden will be proven right. We'll see. At least thanks to him we can now have this discussion.


"The greatest fear that I have regarding the outcome for America of these disclosures is that nothing will change. People will see in the media all of these disclosures. They'll know the lengths that the government is going to grant themselves powers unilaterally to create greater control over American society and global society. But they won't be willing to take the risks necessary to stand up and fight to change things to force their representatives to actually take a stand in their interests.

And the months ahead, the years ahead it's only going to get worse until eventually there will be a time where policies will change because the only thing that restricts the activities of the surveillance state are policy. Even our agreements with other sovereign governments, we consider that to be a stipulation of policy rather then a stipulation of law. And because of that a new leader will be elected, they'll find the switch, say that 'Because of the crisis, because of the dangers we face in the world, some new and unpredicted threat, we need more authority, we need more power.' And there will be nothing the people can do at that point to oppose it. And it will be turnkey tyranny."

Snowden just sounds like a typical paranoid American who believes the government has a secret agenda that will crush and indenture all Americans. (which so far in my life it seems like extremist conservatives act like this, but I will adjust my views accordingly when shown otherwise). I don't want a completely new Bill of Rights, just small adjustments.

Yes he did what was right, but at the same time he did something wrong, despite the program being good and bad at the same time. He is a great American, no doubt. But he is a coward for running, in my opinion. But I get why he is doing it. If he believes he is a hero then why run? If he has nothing else to unleash than he isn't fighting for another day to do something else.

Byrnzie

Guitar92player wrote:

If he has nothing else to unleash than he isn't fighting for another day to do something else.

He does have something else to unleash, and he's been 'unleashing' new information on a weekly basis. Did you read about the massive surveillance operation against Brazil? Or this mornings latest revelations regarding Microsoft and Skype complicity in spying on the Worlds citizens?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... -user-data


Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages

• Secret files show scale of Silicon Valley co-operation on Prism
• Outlook.com encryption unlocked even before official launch
• Skype worked to enable Prism collection of video calls
• Company says it is legally compelled to comply


Glenn Greenwald, Ewen MacAskill, Laura Poitras, Spencer Ackerman and Dominic Rushe
The Guardian, Thursday 11 July 2013

Microsoft has collaborated closely with US intelligence services to allow users' communications to be intercepted, including helping the National Security Agency to circumvent the company's own encryption, according to top-secret documents obtained by the Guardian.

The files provided by Edward Snowden illustrate the scale of co-operation between Silicon Valley and the intelligence agencies over the last three years. They also shed new light on the workings of the top-secret Prism program, which was disclosed by the Guardian and the Washington Post last month.

The documents show that:

• Microsoft helped the NSA to circumvent its encryption to address concerns that the agency would be unable to intercept web chats on the new Outlook.com portal;

• The agency already had pre-encryption stage access to email on Outlook.com, including Hotmail;

• The company worked with the FBI this year to allow the NSA easier access via Prism to its cloud storage service SkyDrive, which now has more than 250 million users worldwide;

• Microsoft also worked with the FBI's Data Intercept Unit to "understand" potential issues with a feature in Outlook.com that allows users to create email aliases;

• In July last year, nine months after Microsoft bought Skype, the NSA boasted that a new capability had tripled the amount of Skype video calls being collected through Prism;

• Material collected through Prism is routinely shared with the FBI and CIA, with one NSA document describing the program as a "team sport"....

ajedigecko

This was the most important nnews for weeeks.

Seems to be forgotten now.

Is that the plan?

Attemtpt to get snowden to make a tactical error.

Byrnzie

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ssia-china

Snowden: I never gave any information to Chinese or Russian governments

As a new poll shows widespread American approval for him, the NSA whistleblower vehemently denies media claims


Glenn Greenwald
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 10 July 2013



NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden, in an interview on Saturday and then again Tuesday afternoon, vehemently denied media claims that he gave classified information to the governments of China or Russia. He also denied assertions that one or both governments had succeeded in "draining the contents of his laptops". "I never gave any information to either government, and they never took anything from my laptops," he said.

The extraordinary claim that China had drained the contents of Snowden's laptops first appeared in the New York Times in a June 24 article. The paper published the claim with no evidence and without any attribution to any identified sources.

In lieu of any evidence, the NYT circulated this obviously significant assertion by quoting what it called "two Western intelligence experts" who "worked for major government spy agencies". Those "experts" were not identified. The article then stated that these experts "said they believed that the Chinese government had managed to drain the contents of the four laptops that Mr. Snowden said he brought to Hong Kong" (emphasis added).

So that's how this "China-drained-his-laptops" claim was created: by the New York Times citing two anonymous sources saying they "believed" this happened. From there, it predictably spread everywhere as truth.

Shortly thereafter, the New Yorker – under the headline "Why China Let Snowden Go" - told its readers: "His usefulness was almost exhausted. Intelligence experts cited by the Times believed that the Chinese government 'had managed to drain the contents of the four laptops that Mr. Snowden said he brought to Hong Kong, and that he said were with him during his stay at a Hong Kong hotel.'" It was then repeatedly cited to demonize Snowden in venues such as DC gossip sheets, right-wing outlets, and diaries at Democratic Party sites.

But there was never any evidence that this was true. The NYT decided to publish this incendiary claim in a news article based purely on rank speculation from two anonymous sources. Obviously, Snowden's denial is not dispositive and shouldn't be treated as such. But it is the only actual evidence on this question thus far.

Americans, to a remarkable extent, seem able and willing to disregard these demonization campaigns. A new Quinnipiac poll released today show that Americans, by a large margin, have positive views of Snowden's actions despite all the demonization: "Fifty-five percent (55%) said Snowden was a whistle-blower in leaking details about top-secret US programs that collect telephone and Internet data . . . . thirty-four percent said he's a traitor." And: "the view of Snowden as a whistle-blower rather than traitor predominated among almost every group of respondents broken down by party, gender, income, education and age."

Moreover, "the poll also showed that by 45 percent to 40 percent, respondents said the government goes too far in restricting civil liberties as part of the war on terrorism. That was a reversal from January 2010, when in a similar survey 63 percent said anti-terrorism activities didn't go far enough to protect the US from attacks, compared with 25 percent who disagreed."

The polling firm's analyst, Peter Brown, provided some fascinating insight about these findings:


"The massive swing in public opinion about civil liberties and governmental anti-terrorism efforts, and the public view that Edward Snowden is more whistle-blower than traitor, are the public reaction and apparent shock at the extent to which the government has gone in trying to prevent future terrorist incidents . . . .The verdict that Snowden is not a traitor goes against almost the unified view of the nation's political establishment "

As usual, the US government, its establishment press, and both political parties have been almost completely united in its views and objectives in this episode. The American people, however, seem to have reached a much different conclusion than the one prepared for and fed to them.

Latin America fallout

As some US journalists assert that no new NSA stories have been published for some time, the controversy over the US spying apparatus in the actual world continues to intensify. Following the anger in Europe, revelations of NSA spying on millions of Brazilians have dominated the news cycle and political class of that country for days now, with formal criminal and Congressional investigations already under way.

Meanwhile, along with O Globo journalists Roberto Kaz and Jose Casado, I published another article in that newspaper on Monday detailing that the NSA's bulk collection of millions of emails and telephone calls extends to most of Latin America. The reaction throughout that continent is the same as we've seen in Europe and Brazil specifically: see this Reuters article entitled "Latin American nations fuming over NSA spying allegations" for the details - http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... obo-spying

I realize that some US journalists see the world as beginning and ending with American borders, but – as these events demonstrate – we have actually been continuing to publish extremely significant NSA stories that are prompting all sorts of debate, investigation and reform around the world.

Byrnzie

ajedigecko wrote:

This was the most important nnews for weeeks.

Seems to be forgotten now.

Is that the plan?

Attemtpt to get snowden to make a tactical error.

It's not been forgotten by most people in the World - see 'Latin America fallout' above, although I can understand why the U.S government lackeys within mainstream U.S media would attempt to brush this topic under the carpet.

Guitar92player

Byrnzie wrote:

Guitar92player wrote:

If he has nothing else to unleash than he isn't fighting for another day to do something else.

He does have something else to unleash, and he's been 'unleashing' new information on a weekly basis. Did you read about the massive surveillance operation against Brazil? Or this mornings latest revelations regarding Microsoft and Skype complicity in spying on the Worlds citizens?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... -user-data


Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages

• Secret files show scale of Silicon Valley co-operation on Prism
• Outlook.com encryption unlocked even before official launch
• Skype worked to enable Prism collection of video calls
• Company says it is legally compelled to comply


Glenn Greenwald, Ewen MacAskill, Laura Poitras, Spencer Ackerman and Dominic Rushe
The Guardian, Thursday 11 July 2013

Microsoft has collaborated closely with US intelligence services to allow users' communications to be intercepted, including helping the National Security Agency to circumvent the company's own encryption, according to top-secret documents obtained by the Guardian.

The files provided by Edward Snowden illustrate the scale of co-operation between Silicon Valley and the intelligence agencies over the last three years. They also shed new light on the workings of the top-secret Prism program, which was disclosed by the Guardian and the Washington Post last month.

The documents show that:

• Microsoft helped the NSA to circumvent its encryption to address concerns that the agency would be unable to intercept web chats on the new Outlook.com portal;

• The agency already had pre-encryption stage access to email on Outlook.com, including Hotmail;

• The company worked with the FBI this year to allow the NSA easier access via Prism to its cloud storage service SkyDrive, which now has more than 250 million users worldwide;

• Microsoft also worked with the FBI's Data Intercept Unit to "understand" potential issues with a feature in Outlook.com that allows users to create email aliases;

• In July last year, nine months after Microsoft bought Skype, the NSA boasted that a new capability had tripled the amount of Skype video calls being collected through Prism;

• Material collected through Prism is routinely shared with the FBI and CIA, with one NSA document describing the program as a "team sport"....

He is just basically adding on to what he previously exposed. I should have said anything "new" as in non-NSA related.

And like I said earlier, us watching other countries is bullshit. Its gov't paranoia. That I think we can both agree on.


But here is something I want to ask you because I am curious.

(Speaking about just America at the moment) Yes they are spying on us. They know many things we have talked about. Yes its a violation of privacy in a way. But what are they collecting? Love/hate messages to friends, family, etc. on facebook, twitter, etc? Recipes exchanged on pinterest? Jokes on websites? Discussions on forums such as this? Video calls to loved ones on skype?

Basically what I am saying is that they have a bunch of useless info in hopes that one day they catch someone about to commit a crime, which supposedly has happened.

Once again I will point out I am not defending the government, actually I am making fun of them in this case. They have lots of info that most of the time means nothing and people wasted time listening, watching, reading info. Then one may ask "then why do it?" They probably don't have to. If they did indeed stop attacks, and we suddenly drop the program, and then suddenly an attack happens, all I want to say is that no one should complain then. And if it is dropped and nothing happens, then oh well. Good for us.

Is it possible you can at least agree with me on that point? (fingers-crossed).

And I know that negative things about the program include false-alarm questioning of citizens who may not be involved in a crime. But if they have all the info then they should know if someone is involved or not, and if someone fucks up then it's their fault and will be dealt with most likely (hopefully).

gimmesometruth27

i saw a poll on the news tonight that said the majority of americans asked actually support snowden. i have to try to find a link to it.

Guitar92player

Byrnzie wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/10/snowden-denies-information-russia-china

Snowden: I never gave any information to Chinese or Russian governments

Just because he says it doesn't mean its true. You act like Snowden is a perfect little angel. :roll:

I'm not accusing him (anymore) of giving info to Russia or China, but it could happen.

Ever hear the phrase "Even if I did I wouldn't tell ya!"? Just sayin...